Planning for a great books approach in high school

[The Governess]

My goal has always been for my children to graduate high school having gone through a solid great books program, knowing that there is a good chance that, for practical reasons, they may not be pursuing these studies at the college level.  Dd11, currently in 6th, is advanced in math and languages, and will likely be taking AP/DE courses in these subjects in high school, and possibly some sciences.  But for the humanities, the goal (for now!) is to go with a great books approach rather than a standard high school progression for these subjects. 

 

This year, she is taking three humanities courses:  expository writing I with WTM Academy, a general literature class (solid reading selections but a focus on comprehension/general discussion rather than analysis), and ancient history.  Next year, for 7th, she will continue with expository writing II and medieval history, and move on to an introductory literary analysis course. 

 

My first question is: what to do for 8th?  My initial thought was that, if she will be going with a great books approach starting in 9th, then 8th would be a good year for her to study U.S. history as a stand-alone subject.  I could pair that with a year of American literature, and she could finish the expository writing sequence that year as well.  However, that means skipping over so much good stuff before starting back with ancients again.

 

One way to solve this might be to do some abbreviated summer studies:  a study of the Renaissance/Reformation between 7th and 8th with a bit of Shakespeare thrown in, and then post-Reformation British history between 8th and 9th, with maybe 2-3 British novels and some poetry.  I may even be able to find a couple other students and turn these into classes/clubs of sorts.  Is it possible to do these subjects justice, at a basic introductory level, in 6 or so weeks each if this is all we do for summer study??  I would probably assign some light writing, but mostly reading, discussion, and film.  Would I be able to count work done the summer before 9th on her transcript?  If so I may try to expand that unit so it is enough for a half credit. 

 

My next question is:  I have been researching great books programs, and really like the look of Roman Roads Media and their flipped classrooms with pre-recorded lectures.  They say that each of their great books courses counts as two credits: one history, and one literature.  However, they only require one written paper per quarter.  Is that a bit light for high school? I was thinking I may want to plan to continue with WTM Academy's rhetoric sequence in high school to add more consistent writing assignments and instruction.

 

Thoughts?

[Chris in VA]

I think 8th would be a great time to do US History, but could you set it in a world context? What I mean is, do Early Mods and Mods, focusing a bit more on the US, but incorporate some world history, too. Actually, by the time the US comes into play, it really is already set in the world, iykwim.

I like your idea to do some Am Lit.

 

 

[The Governess]

I think 8th would be a great time to do US History, but could you set it in a world context? What I mean is, do Early Mods and Mods, focusing a bit more on the US, but incorporate some world history, too. Actually, by the time the US comes into play, it really is already set in the world, iykwim.

I like your idea to do some Am Lit.

 

That's a good idea. I have all of the Human Odyssey and Story of the World books, so maybe I could assign some reading from those as we work through U.S. History.

[Brad S]

This is what we're doing for a Great Book's based approach for 9th grade (ancient period).. We are having a history class and a literature course closely coordinated.  (FYI, we are having a third course on composition and rhetoric, plus math, science, and Spanish, etc.)  I'll start with the history course as it will make the book list clearer.  Any comments on this year in progress are appreciated.

 

9th grade. World history: Early world history (with a focus on five classical civilizations): The primary historical background (spine) is The Great Courses “History of the Ancient World: A Global Perspective†by Dr. Andrete.  As a quick background we used the fairly easy book, The Ancient Greek World (Oxford Press) and may use the companion books The Ancient South Asian World, The Ancient Chinese World, and The Ancient American World. We are also reading the ancient part (through A.D. 600) of Western Civilization by Noble, Strauss, et. al.   The history course is closely coordinated with the literature course.  We spent 2 months in Europe this fall and saw some things that complement this year’s course.

 

9^th grade (ancient) literature and reading list for literature and history courses: In addition to the reading list below, we have discussions and are using four Great Courses literature videocourses.(Great Authors of the Western Literary Tradition, first 24 lectures; Vandiver’s Odyssey, Herodotus, and Greek Tragedy). This is our draft reading list for us for this year (9th grade): 

 

• The Epic of Gilgamesh [translated by Andrew George] (first watched video here and read this brief introduction )
• The Bhagavad Gita (translation?)
• Homer The Iliad (excerpts, all selections from The Norton Book of Classical Literature, ed. by B Knox)
• Homer The Odyssey (translation by Robert Fagles); supplemented with Vandiver Odyssey Great Course
• Aeschylus Oresteia trilogy [translated by Peter Meineck]
• Aristotle Poetics (tr. by Ingram Bywater)
• Sophocles Oedipus the King
• Sophocles Antigone
• Euripides Medea
• Aristotle Rhetoric (translation by Rhys Roberts;  linkage with our writing program).
• Aristophanes- one play, probably The Clouds (which discusses Socrates) and readings by Xenophon on Socrates.
• Herodotus Histories (Robin Waterfield translation) and Vandiver audio course.
• Thucydides The History of the Peloponnesian War (abridged version in Viking Greek Historians)
• Plato 4 dialogues in Biffle’s A Guided Tour of Five Works by Plato
• Readings from the Old Testament (Job, Genesis, parts of Deuteronomy, Isaiah, etc.)
• New Testament (maybe not all)
• Plato The Republic, probably not in its entirety (translation by Robin Waterfield?)
• Virgil Aeneid ? (translation by Robert Fagles? Or an abridged version)
• Augustine Confessions (is there an abridged version?)

 

Although we’re highly Greek-centric by design, for diversity we'll also be reading some original or other ancient sources from other cultures in various continents before broad internationalization, some of which will be immediately before colonization, such as in the Americas. Although it's strictly "out of time sequence," the practical effect is that of a primarily independently developed culture. Finally, we are going to try to read the ancient literature from China and India in the Norton Anthology of World Literature (Volume I, short version).

 

I hope this helps!  (Any comments would also be appreciated.)

Edited March 1, 2016 by Brad S

[yvonne]

We're planning a Great Books sequence for my daughter in high school as well.  This year, in 8th, she is taking a US history course that spans Pilgrims to modern day. She is also taking year one of a five year GB series. I wanted her to have a solid year of US history, which she's getting this year, and then she'll touch on US history at various points in the course of her Great Books sequence, most directly in the final year.

 

I think having done a year of US history in 8th will reduce some of the pressure/second guessing I might have in high school about not doing a pure US history year.

[Chrysalis Academy]

This is what we're doing for a Great Book's based approach for 9th grade (ancient period).. We are having a history class and a literature course closely coordinated.  (FYI, we are having a third course on composition and rhetoric, plus math, science, and Spanish, etc.)  I'll start with the history course as it will make the book list clearer.  Any comments on this year in progress are appreciated.

 

9th grade. World history: Early world history (with a focus on five classical civilizations): The primary historical background (spine) is The Great Courses “History of the Ancient World: A Global Perspective†by Dr. Andrete.  As a quick background we used the fairly easy book, The Ancient Greek World (Oxford Press) and may use the companion books The Ancient South Asian World, The Ancient Chinese World, and The Ancient American World. We are also reading the ancient part (through A.D. 600) of Western Civilization by Noble, Strauss, et. al.   The history course is closely coordinated with the literature course.  We spent 2 months in Europe this fall and saw some things that complement this year’s course.

 

9^th grade (ancient) literature and reading list for literature and history courses: In addition to the reading list below, we have discussions and are using four Great Courses literature videocourses.(Great Authors of the Western Literary Tradition, first 24 lectures; Vandiver’s Odyssey, Herodotus, and Greek Tragedy). This is our draft reading list for us for this year (9th grade): 

 

• The Epic of Gilgamesh [translated by Andrew George] (first watched video here and read this brief introduction )
• The Bhagavad Gita (translation?)
• Homer The Iliad (excerpts, all selections from The Norton Book of Classical Literature, ed. by B Knox)
• Homer The Odyssey (translation by Robert Fagles); supplemented with Vandiver Odyssey Great Course
• Aeschylus Oresteia trilogy [translated by Peter Meineck]
• Aristotle Poetics (tr. by Ingram Bywater)
• Sophocles Oedipus the King
• Sophocles Antigone
• Euripides Medea
• Aristotle Rhetoric (translation by Rhys Roberts;  linkage with our writing program).
• Aristophanes- one play, probably The Clouds (which discusses Socrates) and readings by Xenophon on Socrates.
• Herodotus Histories (Robin Waterfield translation) and Vandiver audio course.
• Thucydides The History of the Peloponnesian War (abridged version in Viking Greek Historians)
• Plato 4 dialogues in Biffle’s A Guided Tour of Five Works by Plato
• Readings from the Old Testament (Job, Genesis, parts of Deuteronomy, Isaiah, etc.)
• New Testament (maybe not all)
• Plato The Republic, probably not in its entirety (translation by Robin Waterfield?)
• Virgil Aeneid ? (translation by Robert Fagles? Or an abridged version)
• Augustine Confessions (is there an abridged version?)

 

Although we’re highly Greek-centric by design, for diversity we'll also be reading some original or other ancient sources from other cultures in various continents before broad internationalization, some of which will be immediately before colonization, such as in the Americas. Although it's strictly "out of time sequence," the practical effect is that of a primarily independently developed culture. Finally, we are going to try to read the ancient literature from China and India in the Norton Anthology of World Literature (Volume I, short version).

 

I hope this helps!  (Any comments would also be appreciated.)

 

We have a very similar approach planned, although our reading list looks slightly different.  I really like this version of the Bhagavad Gita. And this translator also has a nice copy of the Dhammapada.  We'll be reading this version of the Tao te Ching and, by the same translator, some portions of the old and new testament - The Book of Job and maybe this and this.  Adding a little more Eastern philosophy, and reading fewer of the ancient history/philosophy books on your list.  For our history text we're using Ways of the World.

[The Governess]

We're planning a Great Books sequence for my daughter in high school as well. This year, in 8th, she is taking a US history course that spans Pilgrims to modern day. She is also taking year one of a five year GB series. I wanted her to have a solid year of US history, which she's getting this year, and then she'll touch on US history at various points in the course of her Great Books sequence, most directly in the final year.

 

I think having done a year of US history in 8th will reduce some of the pressure/second guessing I might have in high school about not doing a pure US history year.

Thanks for chiming in. It's nice to hear from someone else that is taking this approach!

[Brad S]

We have a very similar approach planned, although our reading list looks slightly different.  I really like this version of the Bhagavad Gita. And this translator also has a nice copy of the Dhammapada.  We'll be reading this version of the Tao te Ching and, by the same translator, some portions of the old and new testament - The Book of Job and maybe this and this.  Adding a little more Eastern philosophy, and reading fewer of the ancient history/philosophy books on your list.  For our history text we're using Ways of the World.

 

Thanks!!  Although I'm not familiar with The Ways of the World, it looks like a good choice for a text, probably more appropriate for a lot of folks than what we're using.  I really like many of SWB's suggestions for history and Great Books in the WTM, but we didn't find her HotAW to make a good text for 9th grade (or earlier or later) history, at least for us; since we'd started that way, we had to quickly switch text.  It sounds like Ways of the World has a lot of contact with primary sources, which was one of our criteria.

 

I also like that you've got a number of other Eastern sources listed.  I kind of jumped to the Norton Anthology's Chinese and Indian sections, but your choices sound good.  FYI, another side book, which looks interesting to me is Herodotus and Sima Qian: the First Great Historians of Greece and China: a Brief History with Documents.  

 

[MamaSprout]

We plan to do this, as well, although I haven't figured out where to put government and Econ. We'll do US history (with SAT test in 8th). Because I know I will probably be full time again by the the time dd is in high school, I've put together sequential book lists with materials from Lightning Lit, EiL and Memoria Press and tried to fill in with some eastern works (which I often will need to read myself.)

 

I'm not sure what history spines we'll use. After K12 HO and STOW, I'm feeling a little uninspired with what I am finding. Our library has the Modern Scholar audio titles, and I've liked most of those better than the Great Course videos I've seen (which has been limited.) The Modern Scholars used to have final exams, but don't anymore, although there are study questions.

 

ETA, we are using Windows to the World (with some modern titles) for 7th and are finishing LAoW this year (Renaissance and early modern) so the essay-writing foundation is in place.

Edited March 16, 2016 by elladarcy

[Liza Q]

 

We plan to do this, as well, although I haven't figured out where to put government and Econ.

 

I treated these as 1-semester electives, fitting them in when we had the most time. 10th grade for Government and 12th grade for Economics worked well for us.

[Lori D.]

Just another thought it bear in mind as you sort through everything:

I assume you are planning on a "college prep" set of high school credits? Most colleges require 1 credit (1 year) American History, taken in high school (grades 9-12). Taking American History in 8th grade may cause you problems later on, as frequently, colleges only count credits taken in high school, not middle school; the only credits that are okay to "bring up" from middle school are things like Biology, Algebra 1, or Foreign Language, where the student is taking the next higher level of the course. Credits that are not "brought up" from middle school, even if of high school caliber include credits in Fine Arts, English, Social Studies, and Electives.

Many people doing the 4-year chronological History cycle get around this problem by including extra emphasis on American History in year 3 and 4 of the History cycle, and combined, that creates an American History credit.

Another option might be to set aside formal History studies in 8th grade and do a World Cultures/Geography and Comparative Religions study. We did this option and found it to be a fabulous foundation for our later high school History studies. Or, pick another Social Studies area of high interest to focus on: Philosophy or Worldview, Psychology, or Anthropology … Or, allow DD to enjoy that last window of opportunity to explore a bunny trail of high personal interest (in any subject area, possibly taking a year's break from History and/or Social Studies), before everything gets a lot tighter what with having to complete all of the high school credits required for graduation and college admissions.

BEST of luck as you plan ahead! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited November 24, 2019 by Lori D.

[MamaSprout]

Just another thought it bear in mind as you sort through everything:

 

I assume you are planning on a "college prep" set of high school credits? Most colleges require 1 credit (1 year) American History, taken in high school (grades 9-12). Taking American History in 8th grade may cause you problems later on, as frequently, colleges only count credits taken in high school, not middle school; the only credits that are okay to "bring up" from middle school are things like Biology, Algebra 1, or Foreign Language, where the student is taking the next higher level of the course. Credits that are not "brought up" from middle school, even if of high school caliber include credits in Fine Arts, English, Social Studies, and Electives.

 

Many people doing the 4-year chronological History cycle get around this problem by including extra emphasis on American History in year 3 and 4 of the History cycle, and combined, that creates an American History credit.

 

 

Another option might be to set aside formal History studies in 8th grade and do a World Cultures/Geography and Comparative Religions study. We did this option and found it to be a fabulous foundation for our later high school History studies. Or, pick another Social Studies area of high interest to focus on: Philosophy or Worldview, Psychology, or Anthropology … Or, allow DD to enjoy that last window of opportunity to explore a bunny trail of high personal interest (in any subject area, possibly taking a year's break from History and/or Social Studies), before everything gets a lot tighter what with having to complete all of the high school credits required for graduation and college admissions.

 

BEST of luck as you plan ahead! Warmest regards, Lori D.

All good thoughts, Lori. I intend to have my DC take the SAT subject test if she completes US History in 8th so that there is no question if it is credit worthy. In our state, the State U is the only place where it would really matter, though. Dd would like the idea of Anthropology...

 

How did approach you approach the comparative religions and geography?

Edited March 17, 2016 by elladarcy

[The Governess]

Just another thought it bear in mind as you sort through everything:

 

I assume you are planning on a "college prep" set of high school credits? Most colleges require 1 credit (1 year) American History, taken in high school (grades 9-12). Taking American History in 8th grade may cause you problems later on, as frequently, colleges only count credits taken in high school, not middle school; the only credits that are okay to "bring up" from middle school are things like Biology, Algebra 1, or Foreign Language, where the student is taking the next higher level of the course. Credits that are not "brought up" from middle school, even if of high school caliber include credits in Fine Arts, English, Social Studies, and Electives.

 

Many people doing the 4-year chronological History cycle get around this problem by including extra emphasis on American History in year 3 and 4 of the History cycle, and combined, that creates an American History credit.

 

 

Another option might be to set aside formal History studies in 8th grade and do a World Cultures/Geography and Comparative Religions study. We did this option and found it to be a fabulous foundation for our later high school History studies. Or, pick another Social Studies area of high interest to focus on: Philosophy or Worldview, Psychology, or Anthropology … Or, allow DD to enjoy that last window of opportunity to explore a bunny trail of high personal interest (in any subject area, possibly taking a year's break from History and/or Social Studies), before everything gets a lot tighter what with having to complete all of the high school credits required for graduation and college admissions.

 

BEST of luck as you plan ahead! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Lori! I am hoping that years 3 and 4 of the great books study will have enough coverage of U.S. History that I will be able to allocate at least a partial credit. Same with government. Then I can add material if necessary. But I'd still like to spend a whole year covering it in 8th, so when we do get to it in our great books study we can focus on the events in more of a world context. 😊 I'm definitely not hoping to count it for college credit... Think that would be too risky.

[Liza Q]

 

I am hoping that years 3 and 4 of the great books study will have enough coverage of U.S. History that I will be able to allocate at least a partial credit. Same with government.

 

I used a GB WTMish approach with my oldest. For years 3&4 I had her use Spielvogel and Johnson's History of the American People as spines, along with bios/other non-fiction/novels. I did try my best to balance the amount of time she spent on "American" vs "World" and I believe that it worked out well. On her transcript I put 1/2 credit of World History and 1/2 credit of US History for each year.

 

Our school district and the colleges she applied to all accepted it, no questions asked. As I mentioned before, Government and Eco were treated like electives.

 

hth

[Lori D.]

On 3/17/2016 at 2:45 AM, elladarcy said:

All good thoughts, Lori. I intend to have my DC take the SAT subject test if she completes US History in 8th so that there is no question if it is credit worthy. In our state, the State U is the only place where it would really matter, though...

Just a quick FYI -- Some colleges only accept AP or SAT II tests taken in 9th grade and above, so you might want to start some early college research to see if taking US History in 8th + SAT II will actual work for you as planned… sigh, I know, it's a pain to have to have *college* in mind when trying to plan for middle school.

On 3/17/2016 at 2:45 AM, elladarcy said:

How did approach you approach the comparative religions and geography?

We focused on Eastern Hemisphere.
We did so for 2 reasons: 4/5 of the world's population lives there, and the classical Great Books type of study in big school which integrates History/Lit heavily focuses on Western Civ, and I wanted to make sure we at least got some exposure to Eastern cultures at some point in our studies.

We studied by general geographic area.
Since it is such a vast area with so many people groups, we tried to focus on big nations, cultures with long histories, and ethnic groups/countries that tend to be in the news today. If I were to do it again, I would either reduce the number of countries we tried to touch on in one year to be able to go a little deeper, OR, even better, use both 7th and 8th grades to have more time for more depth.

We integrated the studies.
So as we looked at a country, we studied the religion, culture (included some major historical events), and physical geography. We focused on these major religions: Hinduism, Buddhism, Shinto, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

We used a variety of materials and did a variety of activities.
Based on your WTMA classes and taking high school courses in middle school, it definitely sounds like your student is more advanced and more rigorous/driven than our DSs when we did our middle school World Cultures/geography and Comparative Religions, so you would likely need/want more rigorous/advanced materials than what we used. However, here's an overview of materials/activities we included in our study:

- non-fiction books (children and teen section of the library)
- fiction books -- some cultural or historical fiction works
- picture books of myths (you get the art style and the cultural myth all in one)
- DVDs of documentaries, travelogue shows, and feature films set in different countries
- explored games, recipes, music, art from different cultures
- made a big chart to compare key ideas of the religions
- made an "atlas page" for each country to sum up key cultural, religious ideas, plus physical geographical features and a printout of an outline map
- online geography games (nations and capitals; locations of countries)

Possible resources for you:
- Mapping the World With Art
- Oak Meadow: Religions of the World, 1 semester high school course
- Oak Meadow: World Geography

There is also a fair amount of overlap of topics with Anthrolopology, so you might look as some of those high school and college-intro level materials I linked below. 🙂

On 3/17/2016 at 2:45 AM, elladarcy said:

...Dd would like the idea of Anthropology...

Here are some resource ideas for you, in case you'd like to go in that direction -- even if you don't end up using any of these specific curricula, they are great for giving you an outline for making your own course, or ideas for texts and resources:
- K-12 Anthropology course (high school elective)
- Forest Trail Academy: Anthropology
- IB Social and Cultural Anthropology: course overview; course syllabus and outline
- MIT Open Courseware: Anthropology
- The Great Courses: The Teaching Company: People and Cultures of the World

Edited November 24, 2019 by Lori D.

[Lori D.]

On 3/17/2016 at 7:51 AM, lovelearnandlive said:

... I'm definitely not hoping to count it for college credit... Think that would be too risky.

Just to clarify 🙂 -- I am not referring to counting your high school Great Books credit as *college* credit. 😉

What I mean is that when you go to apply to college, each college has a list of credits they require you to have completed *in high school* in order to be eligible/accepted for admissions to *college*. It usually looks something like this:

4 credits = English
3-4 credits = Math (most require Alg. 1, Geometry, many also require Alg. 2, and many require a 4th math with Alg. 2 as the prerequisite)
3-4 credits = Science (often Biology and Chemistry preferred)
2-4 credits = Social Science (1 credit = Amer. Hist.; some also require/prefer 1 credit = World Hist. and/or Geog.; and some require/prefer 0.5 credit each in Gov't and Econ)
2-4 credits = Foreign Language (same language)
1 credit = Fine Arts
4-8+ credits = Electives (many schools require/prefer to see some of these as Academic Electives -- credits in Math, Science, Foreign Language, English, Social Science beyond the required credits)
22-28+ = total credits

Specifically for your situation:
The majority of colleges require 2-4 Social Science credits (amount varies depending on the college) to have been taken in *high school*, and most want one of those credits to be a credit of American History.

In addition, many colleges only accept those credits completed in the 4 years prior to applying to the college as fulfilling those required high school credits for admission (i.e., grades 9-12).

So, one of the things you want to have on your transcript is 1 credit of American History taken in grades 9-12.

On 3/17/2016 at 7:51 AM, lovelearnandlive said:

…  I am hoping that years 3 and 4 of the great books study will have enough coverage of U.S. History that I will be able to allocate at least a partial credit. Same with government. Then I can add material if necessary...

Lots of classical homeschoolers do this and it works great. You'll just want to make sure to entitle the History credits in such a way that it is clear that a full year of American History was completed during high school.

(I will try and dig up the link to a recent thread in which this very topic was discussed and several people gave examples of their course titles.)

On 3/17/2016 at 7:51 AM, lovelearnandlive said:

... But I'd still like to spend a whole year covering it in 8th, so when we do get to it in our great books study we can focus on the events in more of a world context.

Middle school is your last "window of opportunity" to explore bunny trails, unusual interests, or do a deep focus on a subject, so if US History is that for your family, enjoy! 🙂

Just a thought: you might also look and see if there is something "off the beaten track" that your DD would really love to explore, too. Those are the types of studies that keep alive a love of learning, allow us to develop life-long interests, or may even open the door to a future career path.

BEST of luck in your planning, and best wishes for you and DD as you enjoy the middle school journey! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited November 24, 2019 by Lori D.

[The Governess]

Just to clarify :) -- I am not referring to counting your high school Great Books credit as *college* credit. ;)

 

What I mean is that when you go to apply to college, each college has a list of credits they require you to have completed *in high school* in order to be eligible/accepted for admissions to *college*. It usually looks something like this:

 

4 credits = English

3-4 credits = Math (most require Alg. 1, Geometry, many also require Alg. 2, and many require a 4th math with Alg. 2 as the prerequisite)

3-4 credits = Science (often Biology and Chemistry preferred)

2-4 credits = Social Science (1 credit = Amer. Hist.; some also require/prefer 1 credit = World Hist. and/or Geog.; and some require/prefer 0.5 credit each in Gov't and Econ)

2-4 credits = Foreign Language (same language)

1 credit = Fine Arts

4-8 credits = Electives (many schools require/prefer to see some of these as Academic Electives -- credits in Math, Science, Foreign Language, English, Social Science beyond the required credits)

22-28+ = total credits

 

Specifically for your situation:

The majority of colleges require 2-4 Social Science credits (amount varies depending on the college) to have been taken in *high school*, and most want one of those credits to be a credit of American History.

 

In addition, many colleges only accept those credits completed in the 4 years prior to applying to the college as fulfilling those required high school credits for admission (i.e., grades 9-12).

 

So, one of the things you want to have on your transcript is 1 credit of American History taken in grades 9-12.

 

 

 

 

Lots of classical homeschoolers do this and it works great. You'll just want to make sure to entitle the History credits in such a way that it is clear that a full year of American History was completed during high school.

 

(I will try and dig up the link to a recent thread in which this very topic was discussed and several people gave examples of their course titles.)

 

 

 

 

 

Middle school is your last "window of opportunity" to explore bunny trails, unusual interests, or do a deep focus on a subject, so if US History is that for your family, enjoy! :)

 

Just a thought: you might also look and see if there is something "off the beaten track" that your DD would really love to explore, too. Those are the types of studies that keep alive a love of learning, allow us to develop life-long interests, or may even open the door to a future career path.

 

BEST of luck in your planning, and best wishes for you and DD as you enjoy the middle school journey! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Sorry for communicating this so poorly! I didn't mean college credit... I meant exactly what you have outlined so well above - I want colleges to see that she has a clear US History credit on her high school transcript, earned in her last four years of schooling.

 

Thanks for the idea to use this time to study something we may not have time for later. I will have to see if any new interests develop over the next year that would be fun to explore!

[MamaSprout]

My dd reminded me today how well she likes the EdX format- something like this could be an interesting pre- great books study: https://www.edx.org/xseries/world-religions-through-scriptures

 

We're doing Mapping the World with Art right now. Not sure what a good follow up to that would be for geography.

[Lori D.]

On 3/17/2016 at 12:07 PM, lovelearnandlive said:

Sorry for communicating this so poorly! I didn't mean college credit... I meant exactly what you have outlined so well above - I want colleges to see that she has a clear US History credit on her high school transcript, earned in her last four years of schooling.

Oops! I misunderstood your earlier post.  :blushing:  (Nothing worse than someone (me) rattling on and on about what you already know and are planning for!)

On 3/17/2016 at 12:07 PM, lovelearnandlive said:

Thanks for the idea to use this time to study something we may not have time for later. I will have to see if any new interests develop over the next year that would be fun to explore!

Yea! Enjoy! 🙂

Edited November 24, 2019 by Lori D.

[EndOfOrdinary]

I am in much the same boat. Ds is 11, in 6th grade, major humanities and linguistics focus. Great Book have always been important to me. I was in Catholic school for my youngest school years and have never looked back from Latin and Great Books. Ds put in a rather significant glitch with DE and getting his Associates degree.

 

After LOTS of looking, I decided to just start everything early. We have begun high school early, but are going slower. I hope to start dual enrollment in CC at 14 going slowly. We are going to have to pay out of pocket for the first two years, but it will lighten the load. More than that, it allows for Ds to get in both the literature and the practicality of the Dual Enrollment.

 

We are using Roman Roads right now. I really like it, combined with Great Courses and Speilvogel (or another history spine). More importantly, Ds feels it is very doable independently. We are doing the program right now at about half to three quarter speed. It does not include huge writing or history instruction. They are in there, but due to Ds being younger, he needs a bit of more explicit instruction. It is not "whack him in the face" enough. So this year we have been using Gardners Art Through the Ages since Ds wants to do AP Art History next year. We will use it next year as well. The Great Courses fit in SO well. Ds listens to them. They are not required, but he honestly enjoys them. Most are only a half hour to an hour. We usually listen together so we can discuss.

 

Speilvogel a couple of editions back (so that it is really cheap) will kick in by 9th grade. It will work for another History AP down the road somewhere. I haven't quite figured out where to put in U.S. History, but 8th grade is looking pretty good! We drop in various bits here and there, but it is so lightly supplemental it does not count.

 

You might want to check in with the community college it looks like she might attend. Ours accepts up to 60 of the 90 Associates credits to be AP credits. So Ds is using AP tests to opt out of quite a few CC credits if it turns out that he is just not loving community college (or a certain subject). It provides some give room and keeps options open.

[DidoMachiatto]

The challenge in teaching history is always making sure your goals are right. Doing History has never been about memorizing dates and places, or just reading what Spielvogel says ABOUT what happened. It is more about taking primary sources and working with them to find patterns.

 

The problem I had with reading "great books" (I used Omnibus, which is a similar approach) is that merely reading those original texts is not enough, even working through the study questions as excellent as they are is not doing history. It's studying old literature. When I was first exposed to the idea of kids reading these wonderful old books like Beowulf and Socrates, I thought "how wonderful!" But then I realized it's not 50% literature/50% history. It's not doing history at all. Reading the texts from the past is not doing history. It involves history, but is not the act of doing history. A book that shows the difference is called "Thinking Like a Historian." Also, the Classical Historian series helps walk kids through the process historians use (I recommend this program as a supplement.)

 

Unfortunately, depending on the Great Books or "great books" curricula for "history" credit handicaps the students. Firstly, it's burdensome and cumbersome. Cram cram cram. Secondly, it's not tapping into their creativity.  Thirdly, it's not teaching them to do what historians do. It's like taking a science class without ever doing an experiment. To do science you've GOT to do the scientific method. To do history you've GOT to do the historical method.

 

Doing history means interacting with the past. Historians don't just learn information. They take that primary source information and do something with it. Finding patterns: change through time, cause/effect, perspectives, etc.  Though it's a lot more effort for the homeschool mom/teacher, the process of teaching history to your student needs to include actually doing history. It makes it come alive for them. It makes them scholars.

 

The way I do it with my kids (17dd, 14dd, 12ds) is I use the great books texts and activities/study guide questions to get them into primary documents, (as I said I use Omnibus method), but I also supplement them with the kinds of activities that count as DOING history.  This year our application includes making a Youtube channel where they will use their analysis skills to introduce ancient historical sites.  

 

You really need to know that when you homeschool you have the freedom to do it right. You don't have to just do what the curriculum people say.  IN FACT, doing history the right way will prepare your child more for their lives than just doing textbook work.  It teaches problem-solving, persuasion, accountability, engagement. These are the workplace skills they need for life.

Edited July 12, 2016 by DidoMachiatto

[Lang Syne Boardie]

The challenge in teaching history is always making sure your goals are right. Doing History has never been about memorizing dates and places, or just reading what Spielvogel says ABOUT what happened. It is more about taking primary sources and working with them to find patterns.

 

The problem I had with reading "great books" (I used Omnibus, which is a similar approach) is that merely reading those original texts is not enough, even working through the study questions as excellent as they are is not doing history. It's studying old literature. When I was first exposed to the idea of kids reading these wonderful old books like Beowulf and Socrates, I thought "how wonderful!" But then I realized it's not 50% literature/50% history. It's not doing history at all. Reading the texts from the past is not doing history. It involves history, but is not the act of doing history. A book that shows the difference is called "Thinking Like a Historian." Also, the Classical Historian series helps walk kids through the process historians use (I recommend this program as a supplement.)

 

Unfortunately, depending on the Great Books or "great books" curricula for "history" credit handicaps the students. Firstly, it's burdensome and cumbersome. Cram cram cram. Secondly, it's not tapping into their creativity.  Thirdly, it's not teaching them to do what historians do. It's like taking a science class without ever doing an experiment. To do science you've GOT to do the scientific method. To do history you've GOT to do the historical method.

 

Doing history means interacting with the past. Historians don't just learn information. They take that primary source information and do something with it. Finding patterns: change through time, cause/effect, perspectives, etc.  Though it's a lot more effort for the homeschool mom/teacher, the process of teaching history to your student needs to include actually doing history. It makes it come alive for them. It makes them scholars.

 

The way I do it with my kids (17dd, 14dd, 12ds) is I use the great books texts and activities/study guide questions to get them into primary documents, (as I said I use Omnibus method), but I also supplement them with the kinds of activities that count as DOING history.  This year our application includes making a Youtube channel where they will use their analysis skills to introduce ancient historical sites.  

 

You really need to know that when you homeschool you have the freedom to do it right. You don't have to just do what the curriculum people say.  IN FACT, doing history the right way will prepare your child more for their lives than just doing textbook work.  It teaches problem-solving, persuasion, accountability, engagement. These are the workplace skills they need for life.

 

Thank you for this informative post. Have you read The Well-Trained Mind by Susan Wise Bauer?

 

 

[swimmermom3]

This is what we're doing for a Great Book's based approach for 9th grade (ancient period).. We are having a history class and a literature course closely coordinated.  (FYI, we are having a third course on composition and rhetoric, plus math, science, and Spanish, etc.)  I'll start with the history course as it will make the book list clearer.  Any comments on this year in progress are appreciated.

 

9th grade. World history: Early world history (with a focus on five classical civilizations): The primary historical background (spine) is The Great Courses “History of the Ancient World: A Global Perspective†by Dr. Andrete.  As a quick background we used the fairly easy book, The Ancient Greek World (Oxford Press) and may use the companion books The Ancient South Asian World, The Ancient Chinese World, and The Ancient American World. We are also reading the ancient part (through A.D. 600) of Western Civilization by Noble, Strauss, et. al.   The history course is closely coordinated with the literature course.  We spent 2 months in Europe this fall and saw some things that complement this year’s course.

 

9^th grade (ancient) literature and reading list for literature and history courses: In addition to the reading list below, we have discussions and are using four Great Courses literature videocourses.(Great Authors of the Western Literary Tradition, first 24 lectures; Vandiver’s Odyssey, Herodotus, and Greek Tragedy). This is our draft reading list for us for this year (9th grade): 

 

• The Epic of Gilgamesh [translated by Andrew George] (first watched video here and read this brief introduction )
• The Bhagavad Gita (translation?)
• Homer The Iliad (excerpts, all selections from The Norton Book of Classical Literature, ed. by B Knox)
• Homer The Odyssey (translation by Robert Fagles); supplemented with Vandiver Odyssey Great Course
• Aeschylus Oresteia trilogy [translated by Peter Meineck]
• Aristotle Poetics (tr. by Ingram Bywater)
• Sophocles Oedipus the King
• Sophocles Antigone
• Euripides Medea
• Aristotle Rhetoric (translation by Rhys Roberts;  linkage with our writing program).
• Aristophanes- one play, probably The Clouds (which discusses Socrates) and readings by Xenophon on Socrates.
• Herodotus Histories (Robin Waterfield translation) and Vandiver audio course.
• Thucydides The History of the Peloponnesian War (abridged version in Viking Greek Historians)
• Plato 4 dialogues in Biffle’s A Guided Tour of Five Works by Plato
• Readings from the Old Testament (Job, Genesis, parts of Deuteronomy, Isaiah, etc.)
• New Testament (maybe not all)
• Plato The Republic, probably not in its entirety (translation by Robin Waterfield?)
• Virgil Aeneid ? (translation by Robert Fagles? Or an abridged version)
• Augustine Confessions (is there an abridged version?)

 

Although we’re highly Greek-centric by design, for diversity we'll also be reading some original or other ancient sources from other cultures in various continents before broad internationalization, some of which will be immediately before colonization, such as in the Americas. Although it's strictly "out of time sequence," the practical effect is that of a primarily independently developed culture. Finally, we are going to try to read the ancient literature from China and India in the Norton Anthology of World Literature (Volume I, short version).

 

I hope this helps!  (Any comments would also be appreciated.)

 

You may find the Bedford Anthologies helpful as well. We enjoyed the way these books work across themes.  Unfortunately, my Norton Anthology books are for World Masterpieces, which is only for Western Civilization. I would like to hear about your experience with the World Literature volumes.

 

Also, for fun, you might keep a couple of books like The History of the World in 6 Glasses, Salt, and Spice on hand for your high school history studies.  Showing your student history through commodities offers a unique viewpoint for example, how the British tea habit was established.

 

Your year looks great.  My ds came home from public high school at the second semester of 9th grade so we only had a short time to study ancient history and literature. It remains my son's favorite time in high school.  One night we must have spent over an hour discussing the Iliad and Dr. Vandiver's lectures. It wasn't even school time, but my son looked over at me and said, "Mom, this is why I wanted to come back home for school."

 

 

[Brad S]

You may find the Bedford Anthologies helpful as well. We enjoyed the way these books work across themes.  Unfortunately, my Norton Anthology books are for World Masterpieces, which is only for Western Civilization. I would like to hear about your experience with the World Literature volumes.

 

Also, for fun, you might keep a couple of books like The History of the World in 6 Glasses, Salt, and Spice on hand for your high school history studies.  Showing your student history through commodities offers a unique viewpoint for example, how the British tea habit was established.

 

Your year looks great.  My ds came home from public high school at the second semester of 9th grade so we only had a short time to study ancient history and literature. It remains my son's favorite time in high school.  One night we must have spent over an hour discussing the Iliad and Dr. Vandiver's lectures. It wasn't even school time, but my son looked over at me and said, "Mom, this is why I wanted to come back home for school."

 

 

 

Our experience with the Norton Anthology of World Literature, Concise Version (2nd edition) has been fabulous.  We started out the year with my researching each piece of literature and finding brief summary materials (for the ancient Greek literature, it was easy for me, but much tougher for me for the non-Western lit).  I found that the literature choices were almost all just what I'd ending up selecting,and the brief introductions were perfect for us -- enough to provide concise background, usually sufficient, yet short enough that they allowed more time for reading the literature.  Although I'm not qualified to know if all the non-Western selections were the best, where I did know they matched what I was looking for and with the "right" amount of material for us.  Since we can't read all of each work, some works were abridged, and we sometimes use the abridged version, which seems like just the right amount of material.  I wish we would have started with it at the beginning of the year, but we were also adjusting from my DS coming back from public school after 8th grade.  I'm still waiting for that "Dad, this is why I wanted to come back home for school" :-) , but his actions speak volumes. 

 

I'll need to look over the Bedford Anthologies, but we have greatly enjoyed Vandiver's lectures; I think the Odyssey, Aeneid, Iliad, and most of hers from TGC "Great Authors of the Western Literary Tradition" are especially good. 

 

[MamaSprout]

You may find the Bedford Anthologies helpful as well. We enjoyed the way these books work across themes.  Unfortunately, my Norton Anthology books are for World Masterpieces, which is only for Western Civilization. I would like to hear about your experience with the World Literature volumes.

 

Also, for fun, you might keep a couple of books like The History of the World in 6 Glasses, Salt, and Spice on hand for your high school history studies.  Showing your student history through commodities offers a unique viewpoint for example, how the British tea habit was established.

 

 

I'm resurrecting this old-ish thread because I ordered the Bedford Anthologies, and I really like them as a lit spine.

 

They is OOP as far as I can tell (at least the website is no longer available). I also have the Norton books (including the TE for books 1, 2 and 3)- I like them pretty well, but they are very no-nonsense and dense. I don't care for selections in 4,5 and 6 as much as what Bedford offers. The TE for Norton does spell out some of the answers to essay prompts.

 

The Bedford Anthology of World Literature

 

Books 1, 2 & 3 are helpfully titled The Ancient World, The Middle Period and The Early Modern World

 

Books 4, 5, and 6 are the 18th, 19th, and 20th Centuries.

 

Pros:

Good TE's: Books 1, 2, & 3 and 4, 5 & 6 (I didn't pay more than $5 shipped for either one). The TE's have good support material. Discussion prompts, short writing prompts, research paper-type prompts, and plot and background summaries for each story. There are at least two college-level syllabi for each of the six books at the back of the TE (I plan to double the weeks for a year-long course and use the extra four weeks for two research papers each year.) There are also syllabi for covering three books in a semester (4, 5 and 6 for a modern year?). Usually there is a geographically arranged syllabus and a thematically arranged syllabus.

 

Good selection of both Western and non-Western literature.

 

Some non-fiction.

 

Timelines and historical tie-ins in the student books.

 

More white space on the page and nicer paper than Norton. :o)

 

Cons:

It is out of print- the website (which looks like was bonus material) no long exists.

 

It doesn't spell out the answers to the discussion and writing prompts, but I think there is ample information in the summaries to support the teacher if they haven't read everything the student writes about.

 

 

 

So my plan for great books

 

High School:

 

9th grade- Bedford Ancients (Themes in Literature syllabus), Spielvogel World History (readable college text with good short writing prompts and some primary source documents included) Book 1, first half

 

10th grade Bedford Middle (Great Themes syllabus), Spielvogel World History Book 1, second half

 

11th grade Bedford Early Modern (The Tempest in World Historical Context syllabus), Duel Credit US History at local uni, & current events.

 

12th grade Bedford Books 4-6 (Thematic Masterworks syllabus) government & econ (probably duel credit), maybe Oak Meadow Modern Middle East or something from EdX.

 

I think this will give us lots of time to discuss and dig deep w/o me spending hours (and a small fortune) tracking down books and trying to line up various resources and support materials. It also leaves room for the above books swimmermom mentioned like Salt. (I would also suggest 1491, Guns, Germs & Steel, etc as options too).

 

We'll probably work in some direct writing instruction with Rulebook for Arguments, Writing with a Thesis, I Say, They Say, Shaum's Guide to Great Research Papers and maybe MCT's  Advanced Academic Writing (we own all of these). We'll just work through them without a schedule per-se, mostly read and discuss.

 

Hope this helps someone!

~ Ella

 

Edited August 6, 2016 by elladarcy