People with a need to reinvent the wheel?

[Tiramisu]

What is this? When some people seem to need to make their own way for doing things even if there is a tried and true efficient method? 

 

Is it a creative ADHD thing? An ASD thing of doing it MY WAY? Is it just simple creativity?

 

I wish I could think of a good example. One is my youngest dd's way to doing math, crunching big numbers mentally and avoiding standard algorithms. But there's also someone else I know that seems to do it for practical needs. Okay, we find fleas and we know which flea treatment works well. But something completely different is tried with no evidence that it will work, and it doesn't. Scratch, scratch. Until we make sure we get the regular stuff. These aren't the best examples.

 

In my mind, if there's a simple way that works, just do it! But maybe that's my own rigidity.

 

At the same time I realize when unusual problems come up that need a creative solution, this is a great asset.

 

 

 

[displace]

What is this? When some people seem to need to make their own way for doing things even if there is a tried and true efficient method? 

 

Is it a creative ADHD thing? An ASD thing of doing it MY WAY? Is it just simple creativity?

 

I wish I could think of a good example. One is my youngest dd's way to doing math, crunching big numbers mentally and avoiding standard algorithms. But there's also someone else I know that seems to do it for practical needs. Okay, we find fleas and we know which flea treatment works well. But something completely different is tried with no evidence that it will work, and it doesn't. Scratch, scratch. Until we make sure we get the regular stuff. These aren't the best examples.

 

In my mind, if there's a simple way that works, just do it! But maybe that's my own rigidity.

 

At the same time I realize when unusual problems come up that need a creative solution, this is a great asset.

 

I *may* have a tendency to do this.  Some of it is necessity.  This method isn't working, that one isn't quite right, the other one has flaws, etc.  Some of it is control (I know it will be done correctly if I do it properly). 

 

I love to find things that work well but with school it has been difficult and rare so far.  I think it will improve as we go along though.  For kids I think it's a sign of creativity and exploration.  Having knowledge that something will work is different than experience if it will work or not, or a desire to improve on things.

[Crimson Wife]

 One is my youngest dd's way to doing math, crunching big numbers mentally and avoiding standard algorithms. 

 

DS does this. He is very, very good at mental math and HATES when I make him actually write out the calculations on paper using the standard algorithm. I don't know if it is an ADHD-related impatience thing, a whole-to-parts learner thing, or what. Drives me bonkers as an auditory-sequential learner.

 

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

In my house, it is clearly and ADHD thing.

 

 

We've been through the flea scenario. We now all agree that the tried and true method (Capstar, Program, and vacuuming) will always be used in the future.

[Targhee]

Maybe it is an ADHD thing, but maybe it's a personality thing.

 

My DH is very much like that (and likely ADHD) and two of my three ADHD kids are very much like that. But I think around here it is accentuated because I am the type to think "no I've tried all these ways and this is the best so let me save you from going through all the work I've done by insisting you do it my way." I have learned to ease off on expressing this thinking, and I try to find the joy in watching them learn, but when I feel stress or a time crunch I slip back to "just do what I told you to do!"

[Heathermomster]

Control...

[PeterPan]

Or that the thing isn't REAL to them yet.

 

Math does have more ways to do it, btw.  Just because they don't like one algorithm doesn't mean there aren't more.  RightStart actually teaches multiple ways to do things for precisely this reason.  Depending on what it is, you might need to try more methods and let her choose.  She might be so super smart her gut is telling her there ought to be more ways.  :D

[Tiramisu]

Control...

 

Sorry. My need for control or theirs? Or both? 

 

My rigid brain needs clarification.  :001_rolleyes:

[Heathermomster]

Sorry. My need for control or theirs? Or both? 

 

My rigid brain needs clarification.  :001_rolleyes:

All, some, or none.  Clearly, the need for control is situationally dependent.  As OhE mentioned, sometimes there are multiple ways to solve a problem.  I don't know much about flea treaments.  We use a product called Frontline on my Chiweenie warrior.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Heathermomster

[Targhee]

Or that the thing isn't REAL to them yet.

 

Math does have more ways to do it, btw. Just because they don't like one algorithm doesn't mean there aren't more. RightStart actually teaches multiple ways to do things for precisely this reason. Depending on what it is, you might need to try more methods and let her choose. She might be so super smart her gut is telling her there ought to be more ways. :D

I love that my kids can creatively approach problems, especially in math and science! I encourage them in that arena. But I have a harder time with creative approaches to putting on shoes when we need to be out the door, or creative methods for cleaning (that don't really get things clean), or creative methods of managing to-do items on your iPod that are never remembered to be used so are futile... I know I should take the "bad with the good" - one day they'll come up with a real winner of an approach. It's definitely the Edison trait of 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration. I just wish my nature didn't make me perspire about it so much :-)

[PeterPan]

Well you know what I used to tell my dh...  I'll stop rearranging the furniture when I find the right arrangement.  ;)  

 

I currently have no clue where this conversation is going, but since Heather is whipping out dogbones, I can bring my furniture.  :D   

 

Targhee, the very first psych we used with my dc had this very interesting observation that has stuck with me a long time.  He said her problem-solving would be prone to inefficiency.  Like the WAY UNDERSTATEMENT of the year, eh?   :lol:  And for my dd it's a huge, huge, huge issue.  I haven't noticed it yet a ton with ds, but it may be that he's not *attempting* to do those things and therefore I'm not seeing the inefficiency of his approach, if that makes sense.

 

So yes, I'm with you that it's just not practical to think that people who have inefficient, ineffective approaches to problem solving are just going to be left to do things the way they want.  But it's also really hard to get them to COMPLY!  I'm not sure how we solved that, because I don't think we did.  It was a huge issue, and then we just gave up and relegated her to an office with instructions.  And there are things she has bucked me on, where she really wouldn't follow the efficient procedures I suggested, and it COST her.  And that's just reality.  

 

So I guess squash where you must and avoid where you can.  

[Crimson Wife]

Math does have more ways to do it, btw.  Just because they don't like one algorithm doesn't mean there aren't more.  RightStart actually teaches multiple ways to do things for precisely this reason.  Depending on what it is, you might need to try more methods and let her choose.  She might be so super smart her gut is telling her there ought to be more ways.   :D

 

I agree that it is good to know multiple ways of problem-solving in math. It is just annoying when the child does not want to practice using the standard algorithm when he/she actually NEEDS to learn it. When my DS was in the 3rd grade book I wound up having to pull a page of 5 digit x 5 digit multiplication problems out of oldest DD's pre-algebra in order to find something he couldn't just solve mentally. Oh, the horror! :lol:

[PeterPan]

 When my DS was in the 3rd grade book I wound up having to pull a page of 5 digit x 5 digit multiplication problems out of oldest DD's pre-algebra in order to find something he couldn't just solve mentally. Oh, the horror! :lol:

 

Haven't had that problem...   :smilielol5:

[maize]

OK, I am like this.

 

Which might be one more data point that it is an ADHD thing.

 

I like to figure things out myself.

 

If I have to just follow direction my brain squirms--it is so uncomfortable. Cooking is one area where this comes up. I cannot follow a recipe. Just can't make myself do it. Just thinking about having to follow that list of directions exactly gives my this icky squirmy feeling. I'll read recipe books for ideas, but to actually follow a recipe as written... Nope. Can't do it.

[Targhee]

OK, I am like this.

 

Which might be one more data point that it is an ADHD thing.

 

I like to figure things out myself.

 

If I have to just follow direction my brain squirms--it is so uncomfortable. Cooking is one area where this comes up. I cannot follow a recipe. Just can't make myself do it. Just thinking about having to follow that list of directions exactly gives my this icky squirmy feeling. I'll read recipe books for ideas, but to actually follow a recipe as written... Nope. Can't do it.

Why do you think that is, Maize? Not to psychoanalyze or anything, I just would love to understand better. And I think as an adult you can probably better articulate the why than my 10 year old.

[maize]

Why do you think that is, Maize? Not to psychoanalyze or anything, I just would love to understand better. And I think as an adult you can probably better articulate the why than my 10 year old.

It is really hard to analyze myself!

 

So, I'll try. I think there are a few different things going on.

 

1) in some sense instructions are overwhelming and following them is hard--disorganized brain does not easily grasp order.

 

2) following directions is boring. Brain needs lots of stimulation. Making something up is more stimulating.

 

3)--possibly deriving from the first two--is that squirmy feeling. Which is just there. And makes me want to do anything but the thing that makes my brain squirm.

 

And I truly don't know how helpful or even accurate that analysis is :tongue_smilie:

[Tsuga]

What a funny perspective!

 

I would say what the heck is up with people who can't/won't/don't try new things? If it were up to them we'd all still be living in trees using bark for loincloths.

 

To answer your question, why: It's more fun that way. If I do what you say for no reason other than you said so, I might end up walking off a cliff. Or never learning to paint because it's messy.

 

I mean how do you know the best way? Maybe the person who told you was wrong. Appeal to Authority is a fallacy in my book. You prove it or at best I'm humoring you just to save time to then do it my way later. I'm not agreeing because I've finally come to the conclusion, "You're right, maybe I WON'T think this through myself, I'll just be a blind follower." I just have stuff to do and I can see that you won't budge so I give up and save my experiment for later. I've never conceded--I might be proven wrong but I won't be told wrong "because that's how we do it".

 

Create, think, question,100% of the time. I thought other people did not do this simply because they didn't have the capacity, mental, physical, or emotional, to do otherwise, for whatever reason.

 

Who wouldn't see if they could come up with their own way to solve a problem? Not me. I don't think it's a disorder. I think it's a bonus.

 

Of course it's frustrating when we're in a hurry and I have learned the hard way that there are really only three ways to tie shoes and that knots take longer to design than one would think, but I tell them do it in the car or go barefoot, and then drag them to the car. They can work on knots there. Otherwise, how will we get new, improved knots? They are little shoelace engineers. They are practicing for life.

 

ETA: I always realized that some people didn't want to wait. I figured they had their own lives to live, creativity to express, problems to solve, questions to think through, so they didn't want to wait for ME and MY problems (fair enough). It never once occurred to me that maybe they didn't want to do the expression, solving, or thinking, period but just wanted to go through the motions. Why... what are they even thinking, then? Not to be rude, but really, what is the brain occupied with if you're not thinking about "how what why when what if" all the time? Just "my keys are on the hook my keys are on the hook my keys are on the hook my keys are on the hook my keys..."

 

No wonder some people never lose their shoes.

 

As for me, I'll go barefoot, thanks, LOL!

Edited February 28, 2016 by Tsuga

[Tiramisu]

OK, I am like this.

 

Which might be one more data point that it is an ADHD thing.

 

I like to figure things out myself.

 

If I have to just follow direction my brain squirms--it is so uncomfortable. Cooking is one area where this comes up. I cannot follow a recipe. Just can't make myself do it. Just thinking about having to follow that list of directions exactly gives my this icky squirmy feeling. I'll read recipe books for ideas, but to actually follow a recipe as written... Nope. Can't do it.

 

Yes. The following a recipe is a good example.

[PeterPan]

People sometimes flash behavior as so gifted, so creative, so whatever, when they're really covering up for weaknesses.  ;)  

 

The weaknesses I'd be looking for in this case are EF skills like working memory and sequencing.  My dd REALLY struggled in geometry for a while because of the EF stuff.  She's actually brilliant at it, very intuitive, but to follow all those steps was just super hard.  She cooks like Maize too.  She's a FABULOUS cook.  And I'm really not kidding there.  Like she could go get a degree in business and be a personal chef; people would pay money for her cooking.  

 

To me, I'm cool with creative and innovative.  I just don't pretend the skill holes aren't there.  I think sometimes they're doing that mess because they *can't*.  The challenge is finding a way to work on it.

[Tiramisu]

All, some, or none.  Clearly, the need for control is situationally dependent.  As OhE mentioned, sometimes there are multiple ways to solve a problem.  I don't know much about fleas treaments.  We use a product called Frontline on my Chiweenie warrior.

 

I vote for Frontline, too. 

 

The alternative in question turned out to be something called Flea Away, or something like that. The ingredient list looked impressive if you didn't know that it was a bunch of B vitamins.

 

We once adopted a puppy from a family that swore by a garlic spray for fleas and the poor pup turned out to be infested.

 

(ETA: They also fed the pup oatmeal as her primary diet, which is also a bit unusual.)

 

I also once lived in a flea infested house as a child and have traumatic memories...so you can see why flea control is an issue for me and I don't want to experiment.

Edited February 28, 2016 by Tiramisu

[maize]

People sometimes flash behavior as so gifted, so creative, so whatever, when they're really covering up for weaknesses. ;)

 

The weaknesses I'd be looking for in this case are EF skills like working memory and sequencing. My dd REALLY struggled in geometry for a while because of the EF stuff. She's actually brilliant at it, very intuitive, but to follow all those steps was just super hard. She cooks like Maize too. She's a FABULOUS cook. And I'm really not kidding there. Like she could go get a degree in business and be a personal chef; people would pay money for her cooking.

 

To me, I'm cool with creative and innovative. I just don't pretend the skill holes aren't there. I think sometimes they're doing that mess because they *can't*. The challenge is finding a way to work on it.

Yep, it's both a strength and a weakness. We need to leverage our strengths while finding ways to work around and compensate for the weakness bits.

 

I'm feeling mighty pleased with myself right now for figuring out how to unclog the bathroom sink using improvised tools. Course if I were better organized I would have known where the proper tools (like my pipe wrench) were...

Edited February 28, 2016 by maize

[Tiramisu]

What a funny perspective!

 

I would say what the heck is up with people who can't/won't/don't try new things? If it were up to them we'd all still be living in trees using bark for loincloths.

 

To answer your question, why: It's more fun that way. If I do what you say for no reason other than you said so, I might end up walking off a cliff. Or never learning to paint because it's messy.

 

I mean how do you know the best way? Maybe the person who told you was wrong. Appeal to Authority is a fallacy in my book. You prove it or at best I'm humoring you just to save time to then do it my way later. I'm not agreeing because I've finally come to the conclusion, "You're right, maybe I WON'T think this through myself, I'll just be a blind follower." I just have stuff to do and I can see that you won't budge so I give up and save my experiment for later. I've never conceded--I might be proven wrong but I won't be told wrong "because that's how we do it".

 

Create, think, question,100% of the time. I thought other people did not do this simply because they didn't have the capacity, mental, physical, or emotional, to do otherwise, for whatever reason.

 

Who wouldn't see if they could come up with their own way to solve a problem? Not me. I don't think it's a disorder. I think it's a bonus.

 

Of course it's frustrating when we're in a hurry and I have learned the hard way that there are really only three ways to tie shoes and that knots take longer to design than one would think, but I tell them do it in the car or go barefoot, and then drag them to the car. They can work on knots there. Otherwise, how will we get new, improved knots? They are little shoelace engineers. They are practicing for life.

 

ETA: I always realized that some people didn't want to wait. I figured they had their own lives to live, creativity to express, problems to solve, questions to think through, so they didn't want to wait for ME and MY problems (fair enough). It never once occurred to me that maybe they didn't want to do the expression, solving, or thinking, period but just wanted to go through the motions. Why... what are they even thinking, then? Not to be rude, but really, what is the brain occupied with if you're not thinking about "how what why when what if" all the time? Just "my keys are on the hook my keys are on the hook my keys are on the hook my keys are on the hook my keys..."

 

No wonder some people never lose their shoes.

 

As for me, I'll go barefoot, thanks, LOL!

 

This reminds me of a high school teacher I once had who told the class how we all have daily routines because without them we'd never get things done. His examples were the order of washing our faces, brushing our teeth, putting on clothes. I was shocked and thought, I don't have a routine like that! And at nearly half a century, I can still say, I don't have a routine like that. Everyday I decide, should I brush my teeth first or wash my face first? But I do floss my teeth with a pattern. And, truth be told, if I can remember to pull down my pants before sitting on the toilet I consider myself good. :)

[Tiramisu]

Yep, it's both a strength and a weakness. We need to take full advantage of our strengths while finding ways to work around the weakness bits.

 

I'm feeling mighty pleased with myself right now for figuring out how to unclog the bathroom sink using improvised tools. Course if I were better organized I would have known where the proper tools (like my pipe wrench) were...

 

I think I may overcompensate in my weak areas. Like I want to go with what I know works, so I can free up my mind space to deal with everything else. 

 

Like I learned early on, not to use a fork to get a piece of toast out of the toaster while it's still plugged in. Not everyone in my house subscribes to that system, however.

[Targhee]

First, thank you for your insights.  It  is very helpful for me to hear them articulated.  I responded to your thoughts, not in argument, but to show my Yin for your Yang in the hopes of better understanding.

What a funny perspective!

 

I would say what the heck is up with people who can't/won't/don't try new things? If it were up to them we'd all still be living in trees using bark for loincloths. LOL  :laugh:

 

To answer your question, why: It's more fun that way. If I do what you say for no reason other than you said so, I might end up walking off a cliff. Or never learning to paint because it's messy. Do you trust anyone? Do you think they would mislead you, or that they might be mistaken (or stupid)?

 

I mean how do you know the best way? Maybe the person who told you was wrong. Appeal to Authority is a fallacy in my book. You prove it or at best I'm humoring you just to save time to then do it my way later. I'm not agreeing because I've finally come to the conclusion, "You're right, maybe I WON'T think this through myself, I'll just be a blind follower." I just have stuff to do and I can see that you won't budge so I give up and save my experiment for later. I've never conceded--I might be proven wrong but I won't be told wrong "because that's how we do it". Funny thing is, I don't like Appeal to Authority when it's me (I'm not the one who says "I did because he said so/because that's how they did it in the book").  But if I have gone through the hard knocks learning to find a good way of doing it, and I can explain "this way didn't work because X, and that way didn't work because Y" I would expect you to trust me enough to not have to waste time reinventing the wheel.  So I'm not for authoritarianism, but am for reason.

 

Create, think, question,100% of the time. I thought other people did not do this simply because they didn't have the capacity, mental, physical, or emotional, to do otherwise, for whatever reason.  But what if you want to move beyond? I mean, someone already figured out a good way to put on shoes I'm not going to spend my time reinventing that, I'm going to get out the door and find a new place to see, a new experience to have, a new idea to encounter.  I think this underlays my frustration with my family members who want to reinvent the wheel - they are bright, creative, questioning and I think there is so much more they could add to their lives and to those around them if we could just get move past 'putting on our shoes' and 'get out the door!'

 

Who wouldn't see if they could come up with their own way to solve a problem? Not me. I don't think it's a disorder. I think it's a bonus. I don't think it's a disorder either. I don't think ADHD is a disorder.  I think it's a different way of the mind working, but it is outside the bell curve so I think there needs to be a way for the world to understand the ADHD mind (categorizing "symptoms" and behaviors) and the ADHD individual to function with the generally non-ADHD world (therapies and other supports).

 

Of course it's frustrating when we're in a hurry and I have learned the hard way that there are really only three ways to tie shoes and that knots take longer to design than one would think, but I tell them do it in the car or go barefoot, and then drag them to the car. They can work on knots there. Otherwise, how will we get new, improved knots? They are little shoelace engineers. They are practicing for life.

 

ETA: I always realized that some people didn't want to wait. I figured they had their own lives to live, creativity to express, problems to solve, questions to think through, so they didn't want to wait for ME and MY problems (fair enough). It never once occurred to me that maybe they didn't want to do the expression, solving, or thinking, period but just wanted to go through the motions. Why... what are they even thinking, then? Not to be rude, but really, what is the brain occupied with if you're not thinking about "how what why when what if" all the time? Just "my keys are on the hook my keys are on the hook my keys are on the hook my keys are on the hook my keys..." I would argue your first assumption was truer, at least of some people (I'm sure there are those who go through life happy enough to know where their keys are). Not me. I'm always thinking and analyzing, questioning the why and how and what can I change about this.  One thing I think, generally, that is different though is that my ADHD people are doing the thinking about the thing that is immediately in front of them (their shoe laces, right now), when I am thinking about more remote ideas and possible trajectories in the future (my child's ability to regulate emotions, 10-15 years in the future, and what that might mean in terms of a full and happy life, so what can I do now to help that be the best outcome. Or rising sea levels and California drought - can we use the one situation to help the other, how to improve desalinization so there will be enough fresh water for years to come). I, because I live less in the moment and more in the anticipation of the next, feel relegated to a life of "my keys are on the hook, my keys are on the hook" when I can't move forward because of waiting on those who are still tying their shoes. If we didn't have forward thinkers we would still be in trees, we would just have 100 different ways to wear our bark loin clothes.  It takes both types of thinking to make the world go round.  It just is hard for one set of thinkers to understand the other.

 

No wonder some people never lose their shoes.

 

As for me, I'll go barefoot, thanks, LOL!

 

Edited February 28, 2016 by Targhee

[Tiramisu]

Well you know what I used to tell my dh...  I'll stop rearranging the furniture when I find the right arrangement.   ;)

 

I currently have no clue where this conversation is going, but since Heather is whipping out dogbones, I can bring my furniture.   :D   

 

Targhee, the very first psych we used with my dc had this very interesting observation that has stuck with me a long time.  He said her problem-solving would be prone to inefficiency.  Like the WAY UNDERSTATEMENT of the year, eh?   :lol:  And for my dd it's a huge, huge, huge issue.  I haven't noticed it yet a ton with ds, but it may be that he's not *attempting* to do those things and therefore I'm not seeing the inefficiency of his approach, if that makes sense.

 

So yes, I'm with you that it's just not practical to think that people who have inefficient, ineffective approaches to problem solving are just going to be left to do things the way they want.  But it's also really hard to get them to COMPLY!  I'm not sure how we solved that, because I don't think we did.  It was a huge issue, and then we just gave up and relegated her to an office with instructions.  And there are things she has bucked me on, where she really wouldn't follow the efficient procedures I suggested, and it COST her.  And that's just reality.  

 

So I guess squash where you must and avoid where you can.  

 

Okay, I'll bite this bone, too.

 

Dh, in the good old days, used to like rearrange furniture. But each time it would take me about a month to figure out where to go to answer the phone. I would hear it ringing but the ringing and my "understanding" of where the phone should be were not in sync. It was really confusing.

 

Puzzling over the location of the phone was not an efficient use of my time. However, with my cell phone I go through that everyday...seemingly by my own choice.

[Tsuga]

This reminds me of a high school teacher I once had who told the class how we all have daily routines because without them we'd never get things done. His examples were the order of washing our faces, brushing our teeth, putting on clothes. I was shocked and thought, I don't have a routine like that! And at nearly half a century, I can still say, I don't have a routine like that. Everyday I decide, should I brush my teeth first or wash my face first? But I do floss my teeth with a pattern. And, truth be told, if I can remember to pull down my pants before sitting on the toilet I consider myself good. :)

 

Well, yes, and I think I have learned that through my life, but I've learned how much routine I need.

 

A routine is not the same as incomplete instructions, though.

 

I can develop a routine for myself based on testing and sensitivity to my needs; I can develop one with a child. But there has to be a reason. We have to test it. We have to try alternatives.

 

Then you develop the routine. I'm not just going to take someone else's routine and slap it on my life. Why?

[PeterPan]

Misu, if you're actually asking about fleas, Dawn (dish soap, with the duck) plus vinegar works surprisingly well.  Not the long-term kill like Frontline, but it's non-toxic and repeatable.

[Tiramisu]

Misu, if you're actually asking about fleas, Dawn (dish soap, with the duck) plus vinegar works surprisingly well.  Not the long-term kill like Frontline, but it's non-toxic and repeatable.

 

That's exactly what I did and it worked! I'm an excellent flea and lice remover. I have endless patience. Just mentioning it in case anyone needs that skill set.  :D

[PeterPan]

Misu, what you're describing sounds like the way geodob describes the echo-locating issues of APD.  I have no clue, just tossing that out.  

 

I washed the dog tonight and gave him a bone.  I didn't use the Dawn + vinegar mixture, because he's at the point now where regular washing again will do.  He gets a wash, combing of the tangles, brushing of the teeth, and a blow dry, a look in the mirror to sing him his song, then his bone.  Rituals.   :D

Edited February 28, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Tsuga]

Sorry for edits post-post--partner came home and I urgently had to make some dinner with him, and accidentally posted without reading.

 

I would say what the heck is up with people who can't/won't/don't try new things? If it were up to them we'd all still be living in trees using bark for loincloths. LOL   :laugh:

 

To answer your question, why: It's more fun that way. If I do what you say for no reason other than you said so, I might end up walking off a cliff. Or never learning to paint because it's messy. Do you trust anyone? Do you think they would mislead you, or that they might be mistaken (or stupid)?

 

Well yes, I've gotten lots of bad advice in life. Like, "don't get your dress dirty!" "Why don't you want to play with the dolly?" "You have to drink your milk." I mean, there is so, so much poor information that I still hear on a daily basis I don't even know where to start. That's why I evaluate what people say to me based on my ethical principles and experience. As I've reached middle age I've been doing this more and I'm finding much more success. What people said was the path to success was not. What people said that I should do--like give to the poor, put others first--I found they often didn't do. I now observe more behaviors to learn the rules of the game.

 

​I got a lot of good advice as well. However, my underlying premise that I should trust my instincts and follow my dreams and not follow the formula and try everything first has been, if anything, bolstered by my life experience.

 

I mean how do you know the best way? Maybe the person who told you was wrong. Appeal to Authority is a fallacy in my book. You prove it or at best I'm humoring you just to save time to then do it my way later. I'm not agreeing because I've finally come to the conclusion, "You're right, maybe I WON'T think this through myself, I'll just be a blind follower." I just have stuff to do and I can see that you won't budge so I give up and save my experiment for later. I've never conceded--I might be proven wrong but I won't be told wrong "because that's how we do it". Funny thing is, I don't like Appeal to Authority when it's me (I'm not the one who says "I did because he said so/because that's how they did it in the book").  But if I have gone through the hard knocks learning to find a good way of doing it, and I can explain "this way didn't work because X, and that way didn't work because Y" I would expect you to trust me enough to not have to waste time reinventing the wheel.  So I'm not for authoritarianism, but am for reason.

 

Well, in my case, my kids see that I put my pants on one leg at a time, that I forget my phone sometimes, that we occasionally are wrong. And I feel your frustration. My daughter doesn't believe in showing her work. I think it might actually cause some kind of internal hives for her. I wouldn't be surprised if one day, she DID show her work, and spontaneously combusted from the sheer pain of it. And then boy will I be sorry, LOL! But I was the same way. Some lessons you have to learn yourself. That's what people do.

 

Create, think, question,100% of the time. I thought other people did not do this simply because they didn't have the capacity, mental, physical, or emotional, to do otherwise, for whatever reason.  But what if you want to move beyond? I mean, someone already figured out a good way to put on shoes I'm not going to spend my time reinventing that, I'm going to get out the door and find a new place to see, a new experience to have, a new idea to encounter.  I think this underlays my frustration with my family members who want to reinvent the wheel - they are bright, creative, questioning and I think there is so much more they could add to their lives and to those around them if we could just get move past 'putting on our shoes' and 'get out the door!'

 

But do kids really get to move beyond? What brand new experience are they going to get that nobody has ever tried? Or are they just going to go to another class and be told what to do, or go to the supermarket and watch mom load tomatoes into a cart? I mean I agree with you, it's a pain, but so what? Doesn't everyone have SOMETHING? Like, some kids won't go because they are shy. Some want to go out all the time. Nobody's perfect. Just drag them out the door by their little arms, "You're going to see this if it kills me" and have them put shoes on wet socks in the car. Problem solved.

 

​Making them into someone who sees things your way won't solve the problem. They need to solve the problem their own way.

 

Who wouldn't see if they could come up with their own way to solve a problem? Not me. I don't think it's a disorder. I think it's a bonus. I don't think it's a disorder either. I don't think ADHD is a disorder.  I think it's a different way of the mind working, but it is outside the bell curve so I think there needs to be a way for the world to understand the ADHD mind (categorizing "symptoms" and behaviors) and the ADHD individual to function with the generally non-ADHD world (therapies and other supports).

 

Well, you didn't ask about ADHD, you asked about a behavior. I rarely post here because I'm an Extreme Neurodiversity Advocate. I think I would have been extremely damaged by an early label on myself and I haven't seen anything good come of it for my cousins, that's for sure. As far as I'm concerned, I will find my place in the world and anyone who needs a label to accept me has their own issues to deal with. The last "D" in ADHD stands for "disorder". I have my own order.

 

It is, in my opinion, one million times worse to need to tell someone what's wrong with them and why and what the name of that problem is, than it is to think differently. Difference isn't a problem. Understanding isn't a problem. Unwillingness to accept and cherish difference is the problem. As for the non-ADHD world, I dunno, I work with scientists, academics and architects and other creative sorts, and I don't feel that any of us need the world to be less ADHD. Maybe fewer fluorescent lights, though. 

 

Of course it's frustrating when we're in a hurry and I have learned the hard way that there are really only three ways to tie shoes and that knots take longer to design than one would think, but I tell them do it in the car or go barefoot, and then drag them to the car. They can work on knots there. Otherwise, how will we get new, improved knots? They are little shoelace engineers. They are practicing for life.

 

ETA: I always realized that some people didn't want to wait. I figured they had their own lives to live, creativity to express, problems to solve, questions to think through, so they didn't want to wait for ME and MY problems (fair enough). It never once occurred to me that maybe they didn't want to do the expression, solving, or thinking, period but just wanted to go through the motions. Why... what are they even thinking, then? Not to be rude, but really, what is the brain occupied with if you're not thinking about "how what why when what if" all the time? Just "my keys are on the hook my keys are on the hook my keys are on the hook my keys are on the hook my keys..." I would argue your first assumption was truer, at least of some people (I'm sure there are those who go through life happy enough to know where their keys are).

 

Well for a little kid tying the shoes is interesting enough. Solving the math is interesting enough. I couldn't disagree more with OhElizabeth that this is "masking a weakness". Maybe that's how they learn and there's nothing wrong with that other than "this is inconvenient for ME because I want to do something that interests ME". With my kids, who exhibit all the behaviors you are talking about here, I just bribe the heck out of them.

 

 takes both types of thinking to make the world go round.  It just is hard for one set of thinkers to understand the other.

 

I disagree. I think that it's equally difficult for each group to understand one another. When you start from the point of, "Normal is how things should be" and on either end of the bell curve is disorder, then you automatically are going to be thinking in a way that makes it hard to understand others. Everyone who is this creative, active type is just accepting "normal" or "typical" as "whatever, that's how they do it." If people who were more common took even that bit of courtesy for those they label disordered, they might find they would be able to understand them more.

 

There ARE highly functional societies in which people who don't fit in the box, who are round pegs, so to speak, function in their own way and nobody agonizes about how to understand them. They are allowed to just be, just to have a personality.

 

People have blood types and all those blood types have names. But none of them are "Non AB disorder" or whatever. That's not a disorder.

 

The disorder is in the failure to function, but a lot of the failure to function comes from artificial structures in society that don't allow for people to live outside a narrow view of success.

 

So I don't accept that. I think that society needs to change.

 

I do believe that ADHD is real, I just don't agree that that term or the word "disorder" has to apply to what are in my opinion personality traits. When you can't achieve what you want, that's a problem. When you can't achieve what others believe you should value, then they have a problem.

Edited February 28, 2016 by Tsuga

[geodob]

This rather reflects the scientific explorer mind of young children?

Where rather than 'finding their own way for doing things'?

It's a scientific 'proofing process'.

By trying different ways to do something, and observing the problems with each of them?

They can come to 'understand' why the way they were told is the best.

 

Though sometimes this results in them finding a better way?

 

But their has been quite a lot of discussion about how the school system, turns the exploring mind of a young child.

Into an unquestioning mind, of a rote learner?

So that they stop asking 'Why', and just accept that that is the way it is.

 

Yet it does raise the question about how homeschooling might help retain an 'exploring mind'?

[Tiramisu]

This rather reflects the scientific explorer mind of young children?

Where rather than 'finding their own way for doing things'?

It's a scientific 'proofing process'.

By trying different ways to do something, and observing the problems with each of them?

They can come to 'understand' why the way they were told is the best.

 

Though sometimes this results in them finding a better way?

 

But their has been quite a lot of discussion about how the school system, turns the exploring mind of a young child.

Into an unquestioning mind, of a rote learner?

So that they stop asking 'Why', and just accept that that is the way it is.

 

Yet it does raise the question about how homeschooling might help retain an 'exploring mind'?

 

My 50+ dh has retained that scientific explorer mind quite well.

 

He is very good at discussions about the why of things. He also writes and plays more of his own music than playing that of others. And he can improvise appliance parts. From your explanation, it seems like it's all related.

 

ETA: He also clears drains by draining pasta over them, using a colander, of course. That's helpful. But he has also been known to flush pot roast down the toilet as a convenient way of disposal.

Edited February 28, 2016 by Tiramisu

[maize]

With regard to strengths and weaknesses, it is good to remember that people who are good at following instructions have their own weaknesses--sometimes appearing as lack of creative thinking, maybe as anxiety over doing something wrong...we've all got our own set of strengths and corresponding weaknesses. To some extent the fact that it is the person with ADHD who is seen as having a deficit is merely a result of that being the less common brain pattern.

 

Not entirely though. There is evidence that ADHD for example can be triggered by damage to the brain, such as lead exposure. This suggests actual brain disruption at play. I think neural diversity is real and important but there are actual disabilities that go beyond just divers thinking involved in diagnoses such as ADHD or autism spectrum.

[Heathermomster]

I vote for Frontline, too. 

 

The alternative in question turned out to be something called Flea Away, or something like that. The ingredient list looked impressive if you didn't know that it was a bunch of B vitamins.

 

We once adopted a puppy from a family that swore by a garlic spray for fleas and the poor pup turned out to be infested.

 

(ETA: They also fed the pup oatmeal as her primary diet, which is also a bit unusual.)

 

I also once lived in a flea infested house as a child and have traumatic memories...so you can see why flea control is an issue for me and I don't want to experiment.

I hate fleas too.   :ack2:

[vonbon]

Well, I thrive on novelty.  The most energy-creating, happiness-inducing situations and skill sets for me are those that I am encountering or acquiring for the first time--  It's a bit like controlled, happy mania for my brain.  

 

Once I figure something--anything--out, then it's like, "Meh...next."  It just kills me to do some things the same way twice.  I suppose I do follow some routines because they're proven and help me to focus amidst distractions (like paying bills, washing the car, etc.)

 

Maybe seeking novelty covers up weaknesses and fear of commitment, etc.  It does make it hard to "master" things.  But at the same time, it's just so darn fun to do things in new ways.  

 

I almost never make the same recipe twice and many times just gather up appealing ingredients and sort of cook in a "choose your own adventure" way.  Drives my foodie-gifted-cook DH nutso.  Sometimes I really don't even know what it'll end up being until halfway or most of the way through.  If I use recipes, it's almost always to combine 2-3 "ideas" and make it my own way.  

 

Many things in life are this way for me.  To do otherwise (to follow a path I've already taken) can feel like death sometimes.  Just can't bring myself to do it one.more.time that way.  Even in simple things like mental math or cleaning the house.  It's just sort of a soul death to repeatedly follow a routine.  

[Tiramisu]

Well, I thrive on novelty. The most energy-creating, happiness-inducing situations and skill sets for me are those that I am encountering or acquiring for the first time-- It's a bit like controlled, happy mania for my brain.

 

Once I figure something--anything--out, then it's like, "Meh...next." It just kills me to do some things the same way twice. I suppose I do follow some routines because they're proven and help me to focus amidst distractions (like paying bills, washing the car, etc.)

 

Maybe seeking novelty covers up weaknesses and fear of commitment, etc. It does make it hard to "master" things. But at the same time, it's just so darn fun to do things in new ways.

 

I almost never make the same recipe twice and many times just gather up appealing ingredients and sort of cook in a "choose your own adventure" way. Drives my foodie-gifted-cook DH nutso. Sometimes I really don't even know what it'll end up being until halfway or most of the way through. If I use recipes, it's almost always to combine 2-3 "ideas" and make it my own way.

 

Many things in life are this way for me. To do otherwise (to follow a path I've already taken) can feel like death sometimes. Just can't bring myself to do it one.more.time that way. Even in simple things like mental math or cleaning the house. It's just sort of a soul death to repeatedly follow a routine.

That is such a great description of the need to do things differently. I really appreciate you sharing this, because even though I don't feel the same way, it really helps me to understand and appreciate the need behind it.

[PeterPan]

With my ds, that extreme need for novelty is the combo of his IQ and the ADHD.  Ironically, he STILL needs structure.  What we do is create systems that rotate, so he gets variety rather than being dependent on novelty.  That seems to work for him.  So, for instance, at the SLP, they created a 6 week rotation of games.  Variety rather than novelty.  

[nature girl]

This is all so fascinating, especially the firsthand accounts. There have been so many times I've wished I could get inside DD's brain, because it seems like such an interesting, colorful place, and I wish I could understand it better...

 

And all this makes me so glad I can home school, because I can find ways to inject variety and limit "soul death." Although, only to some extent. How do you add that kind of novelty to a subject like math? I can see this getting to be more and more of a problem as DD gets older and problems get more complex...it's already a problem now, even though I've worked so hard to make math fun. There are only a few tried and true ways to add a multi-digit number, and yes it's boring! But it needs to be repeated in those tried and true ways until it's fully understood. (My DD's way of adding novelty is to give all her 0's and 6's and 9's cat faces... ;) )

[Black-eyed Suzan]

I do not have ADHD, but I do have a strong need for novelty. I do not naturally create routines, although I have made an effort to since I see how effective they are for productivity. I have to force myself to follow them, and at any excuse I deviate from them. When I can't travel, I take new routes to locations around town. I do use and follow recipes, but I am constantly trying new recipes because I get bored cooking the same things.

 

I think Crimson Wife was right when she suggested that it was whole-to-parts thinking/learning thing.

 

I also think it is part of the Perceiving preference of the Myers-Briggs personality types. I don't like to decide on one method, because I feel it limits my options. I love to gather information and I dislike deciding on a direction.

 

I'm on my phone, but here's a link to explain:

http://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/mbti-basics/judging-or-perceiving.htm

 

How to introduce novelty in math?

I believe it was the board member quark who suggested having several tracks or threads in math. Computation, problem-solving, living books/real world math, geometry. I can't remember her categories, but hopefully you get the idea. Alternate between them, and over time you will move forward. We love to supplement LOF to add variety.

[YsgolYGair]

I am like this. I'm not ADD or anything else. But I am a creative and an opportunist (in a good way, I think). 

 

I'm currently creating my own version of a curriculum I couldn't afford. But, what started out as purely a monetary issue changed over time. I can afford that expensive curriculum now, but I'm still plugging away at mine. Why? Because the work I've done so far, I think it's actually better, and still loads cheaper, than the boxed curriculum I would have gotten. Why would I do the boxed curriculum now?

 

So, for me, usually what starts out as a sort-of need, turns into something better or something more personal, and usually a business opportunity. This is how my crochet patterns work. There are loads of crochet patterns out there - why make my own? Because I needed something, and I thought I could make something different / better / more personal than what was out there. What started out as a sort-of need, turned into something better, and then a business opportunity. Now, I have income every month from crochet patterns I've designed. 

 

For a creative / opportunist like myself, it's not "re-inventing the wheel." It's taking the wheel and saying, "how can I make this more personal / better / smoother. I don't know if you've noticed this, but wheels have changed over time. They're alot smoother rides now. ;)