CC Theology question

[purplejackmama]

I've been mulling this over in my brain, I would love to hear your ideas.

 

IF, we believe that God is all-knowing, then he knew the free will he gave Adam & Eve would be used incorrectly. So he knew they would disobey him. So, with that premise then why are we punished (sentenced to hell unless we repent and accept salvation)for being the way we were born? We didn't choose to disobey him, we were made like this. He made us with this sinful nature inside us.

 

Thoughts?

[JumpyTheFrog]

First of all, while I believe everyone sins, I don't believe God made us this way. Secondly, not all Christians believe in eternal conscious punishment.

[bolt.]

I have a non-punitive view of death-and-hell. I consider it to be an inevitable result of the rejection of a life that includes God... The result being that there is no such thing as "life" that doesn't include God, because God is the source of life. Apart from God, life can not be expected to continue. (If one is scuba diving, and removes one's mask, drowning is not a "punishment" inflicted by anyone -- it's just the simple and obvious result of rejecting the thing that was providing air to sustain your life.)

 

For this reason, I don't blame God for creating people with the kind of nature that is capable of choosing to reject life with him. The only other option would be to create people who 'by nature' had no choice, therefore making a relationship with God mandatory. Mandatory relationships lack an essential element of actual relationships -- in actual relationships the parties choose each other, they have the option to reject the other party if they want to.

 

Being made to be *capable* of good/evil choice is not the same as not having a choice, and it's not the same as being made 'evil by nature'. Having our choices known in advance is not the same thing as 'not making the choice' to reject God. God made options possible. He didn't choose which path we would take. He knew it, fair enough, but all we know about that is that in his knowledge God didn't abandon 'the human project' before he started. He decided it was worth letting the freedom play itself out.

 

God created humans intentionally with the option to reject him because he wanted a *real* relationship with any human who was remotely willing to have one too. He knew that some would reject him and die because there isn't anything to replace him as a source of life... But he tries to fix that too: with tolerance, with mercy, with forgiveness, and eventually with incarnation, crucifixion and ressurection.

 

This is why salvation is called God's rescue -- in Christ he fixes the un-fixable by making a way through death to life, even for those of us who have often chosen death. Those who take the rescue take it. Those who reject the rescue are mourned, but respected. Everybody else... No data.

Edited February 25, 2016 by bolt.

[Georgiana Daniels]

It's not what Adam and Eve did, it's what we do. I choose to disobey Him. Of course, I try not to for the most part, but there are times when I've deliberately done the wrong thing. Who hasn't?

[purplejackmama]

It's not what Adam and Eve did, it's what we do. I choose to disobey Him. Of course, I try not to for the most part, but there are times when I've deliberately done the wrong thing. Who hasn't?

Yes, but you were made this way by God. That's my dilemma. Why did God make us like this?

Edited February 25, 2016 by purplejackmama

[ktgrok]

Yes, but you were made this way by God. That's my dilemma. Why did God make us like this?

 

Because if we couldn't choose to do wrong we'd be robots. 

[purplejackmama]

First of all, while I believe everyone sins, I don't believe God made us this way. Secondly, not all Christians believe in eternal conscious punishment.

Ooh I need to hear more. If God didn't make us this, then who did?

[purplejackmama]

Because if we couldn't choose to do wrong we'd be robots.

I wish we were sitting down for coffee to hash this out. I think my word choice is lacking.

 

Ok, I get the non-robot thing. But, why does God punish us when we are behaving exactly the way he made us.

 

Does that make sense?

[ktgrok]

I wish we were sitting down for coffee to hash this out. I think my word choice is lacking.

 

Ok, I get the non-robot thing. But, why does God punish us when we are behaving exactly the way he made us.

 

Does that make sense?

 

I don't believe God punishes us, not like you are saying. I believe we can choose to live apart from God, and that is not as good as choosing to live with God. But it's not about punishment at all. 

 

For instance, I tell my child not to touch the hot stove. They do and get burnt. the burn wasn't me punishing them, it was just what happens if you touch a hot stove. I'd be hurting for the child, not be angry. 

 

In a more persona and real life example, God tells us that sex is best inside marriage. I choose to have sex outside of marriage. I have to deal with the stress and hard decisions that come from pregnancy outside of a stable marriage. That's not God punishing me. He's not angry with me. He's sad I have chosen to put myself in a difficult situation, but there for me to turn to when things get hard. (that all actually happened.)

 

God isn't saying "be chaste" so that he can pounce on us when we mess up. It's to make life easier for us. God doesn't tell us to forgive because he's cruel and twisted and wants to watch us struggle with something hard. He tells us to forgive because carrying a grudge is a burden that hurts us every day we carry it. 

 

I just don't see a harsh, punishing figure when I encounter God, but a loving parent who wants what is best for me, but lets me make my own choices. 

[gardenmom5]

I've been mulling this over in my brain, I would love to hear your ideas.

 

IF, we believe that God is all-knowing, then he knew the free will he gave Adam & Eve would be used incorrectly. So he knew they would disobey him. So, with that premise then why are we punished (sentenced to hell unless we repent and accept salvation)for being the way we were born? We didn't choose to disobey him, we were made like this. He made us with this sinful nature inside us.

 

Thoughts?

 

we believe there must be an opposition in order to be able to choose, and learn and grow.

 

we believe Adam and Eve's fall (to introduce choice) was part of God's plan - just as are the atonement and resurrection are part of the plan to bring us back to God (if we choose.)

 

eta: for clarity - we also believe satan didn't know it was part of God's plan, and thought he was foiling things . . . but, he's an idiot.  (and a coward)

Edited February 25, 2016 by gardenmom5

[Suzanne in ABQ]

I view it more as a natural consequence, not a punishment at all.  God is perfect, and sin cannot exist in His presence.  His glory will destroy sin, including sinners, and it will give eternal life to those who seek it.

 

I don't believe that hellfire is eternal in the sense that it will burn for eternity.  Instead, I believe that it will burn until it has destroyed all sin, and that sin will be destroyed for all eternity.  

 

Consequently, I don't believe in the immortality of those who choose to turn away from God.  Those who choose to live independent of Him will be forever separated from Him at his coming.

 

Further, I believe that there are many, many seekers in the world (past and present) who may not have ever met the One true God.  They may have been misled, or hurt so deeply that they couldn't see or hear him.  They may have been looking for Him in all the wrong places.  They may have been turned off by Christians who did a terrible job of portraying Him.  I believe that those people will know Him when they see Him, even if it isn't until He comes again.

 

We live in a world full of sin, and we deal with the consequence of many bad choices.  Some of the choices are our own, and some were made by other sinful people.  Still, we can always turn to Him who made us and loves us.  He will never turn us away and He doesn't punish us.  His will is that we all commune with Him forever.  That's why He made us.

[Mom2Five]

I've been mulling this over in my brain, I would love to hear your ideas.

 

IF, we believe that God is all-knowing, then he knew the free will he gave Adam & Eve would be used incorrectly. So he knew they would disobey him. So, with that premise then why are we punished (sentenced to hell unless we repent and accept salvation)for being the way we were born? We didn't choose to disobey him, we were made like this. He made us with this sinful nature inside us.

 

Thoughts?

 

I would love to share my thoughts on this. God didn't want robots. He wanted people freely choosing of their own will to follow him. It was the same scenario in the garden as it is today.

It is kind of a catch 22? I guess you could say. God gave man a choice knowing what he would choose but isn't that better than not giving a choice? Then, you could take it a step further. God not only gave man a choice as to whether they would follow him but he offered up himself, his only Son, as the payment for mans sin.

Man did choose to disobey. God didn't make us disobey, he only gave us the option to disobey. What kind of God would he have been if he would have forced people to follow him. I have to look up a few verses and then will be back.

[bolt.]

I wish we were sitting down for coffee to hash this out. I think my word choice is lacking.

 

Ok, I get the non-robot thing. But, why does God punish us when we are behaving exactly the way he made us.

 

Does that make sense?

Punishment is the wrong word for me to be able to answer this question.

 

If the question was "why are there results or consequences for us when we are behaving exactly the way he made us?"

 

Then my answer would be that -- Yes, making meaningful choices between good and evil, between 'love and respect' for God and 'disregard or rejection' of God *is* behaving exactly the way he made us... But real choices have real results.

 

If God merely pretended we could reject him, then hid from us but sneakily kept himself in relationship with us against our wills and without our consent: that wouldn't actually be called 'letting us have a choice' would it? It would be right back to robots and mani story relationships, just with an added layer of deception.

 

To actually be 'not robots' we actually have to be capable of genuinely rejecting God, and having the results of that choice actually come true... That's the result/consequence of not having God in one's life: finding out that choosing "no life source for me" means death. (Which God takes very seriously and warns us about using metaphors to stress how terrible it is, and how permanent/eternal such a choice will eventually become if it is not recanted.)

[MegP]

Never mind

Edited February 25, 2016 by MegP

[Mom2Five]

I wish we were sitting down for coffee to hash this out. I think my word choice is lacking.

 

Ok, I get the non-robot thing. But, why does God punish us when we are behaving exactly the way he made us.

 

Does that make sense?

 

We are only behaving in the way he made us in the sense that we are behaving with choice. He didn't create man to sin, but to have fellowship with him.

Read the first dozen chapters in the book of genesis. Eve listened to the serpent, Adam listened to Eve, and God came looking to fellowship with them as he had been doing. Immediately he notices something was off because they were hiding. They get their punishments...Eve has to deal with child bearing, Adam has to work for food, the serpent has to slither on the ground and loses his voice. What is often skipped over? What is the first thing God does? He makes them clothes. He has mercy on them. It was the first sacrifice, the first death, to cover up the sins of man. I remember reading that and thinking oh my goodness, God was just betrayed and then he made them clothes even though they only realized they were naked because of sin. He made us to have fellowship with him and he restored that through Jesus Christ. He did not make man to sin, only to have a choice.

[Mom2Five]

The verses I went to look up were in Romans chapter 9 when it talks about God making some vessels for evil and some for good. I don't know if that will help you out any but I wanted to mention it so you can read it if you would like.

[EmseB]

I would recommend reading Death by Living or Notes from the Tilt-a-Whirl for a good perspective on the problem of evil/sin/creation.

 

Paraphrased, why is there darkness in any tale? It is to be triumphed over, overcome. We are supposed to go throw the ring in the fire, so to speak. That includes overcoming deep and personal tragedies and our own selves.

[6packofun]

I've been mulling this over in my brain, I would love to hear your ideas.

 

IF, we believe that God is all-knowing, then he knew the free will he gave Adam & Eve would be used incorrectly. So he knew they would disobey him. So, with that premise then why are we punished (sentenced to hell unless we repent and accept salvation)for being the way we were born? We didn't choose to disobey him, we were made like this. He made us with this sinful nature inside us.

 

Thoughts?

 

We were made with the ability to choose.  That God knows what we would choose on our own doesn't make Him responsible.  Now, WHY did God make us with the ability to choose?  Because He is good.  Because love freely chosen was worth all the possibilities of poor, freely chosen things.  Being free agents with our OWN wills is an ultimate good as opposed to God simply creating beings incapable of doing anything other than good...which would be what?  Versions of Himself.  

[Guest]

I don't believe God punishes us, not like you are saying. I believe we can choose to live apart from God, and that is not as good as choosing to live with God. But it's not about punishment at all.

 

For instance, I tell my child not to touch the hot stove. They do and get burnt. the burn wasn't me punishing them, it was just what happens if you touch a hot stove. I'd be hurting for the child, not be angry.

 

In a more persona and real life example, God tells us that sex is best inside marriage. I choose to have sex outside of marriage. I have to deal with the stress and hard decisions that come from pregnancy outside of a stable marriage. That's not God punishing me. He's not angry with me. He's sad I have chosen to put myself in a difficult situation, but there for me to turn to when things get hard. (that all actually happened.)

 

God isn't saying "be chaste" so that he can pounce on us when we mess up. It's to make life easier for us. God doesn't tell us to forgive because he's cruel and twisted and wants to watch us struggle with something hard. He tells us to forgive because carrying a grudge is a burden that hurts us every day we carry it.

 

I just don't see a harsh, punishing figure when I encounter God, but a loving parent who wants what is best for me, but lets me make my own choices.

Rabbit trail, sorry. I struggle with this loving parent notion. God does not behave toward me in the same way I behave toward my children. I can't imagine ever telling my children that they had to live apart from me, for eternity, due to their choices. I talk to my children. My communication to them is crystal clear. God does not speak to me in any clear, discernible way. Sure, I get feeling I can attribute to God but God has never spoken to me. Why not? He is God, He has the ability to write on the walls or something. I look at all the religions and think, "Really? You couldn't give us just a little hint as to which is right?"

[Entropymama]

I have a non-punitive view of death-and-hell. I consider it to be an inevitable result of the rejection of a life that includes God... The result being that there is no such thing as "life" that doesn't include God, because God is the source of life. Apart from God, life can not be expected to continue. (If one is scuba diving, and removes one's mask, drowning is not a "punishment" inflicted by anyone -- it's just the simple and obvious result of rejecting the thing that was providing air to sustain your life.)

 

For this reason, I don't blame God for creating people with the kind of nature that is capable of choosing to reject life with him. The only other option would be to create people who 'by nature' had no choice, therefore making a relationship with God mandatory. Mandatory relationships lack an essential element of actual relationships -- in actual relationships the parties choose each other, they have the option to reject the other party if they want to.

 

Being made to be *capable* of good/evil choice is not the same as not having a choice, and it's not the same as being made 'evil by nature'. Having our choices known in advance is not the same thing as 'not making the choice' to reject God. God made options possible. He didn't choose which path we would take. He knew it, fair enough, but all we know about that is that in his knowledge God didn't abandon 'the human project' before he started. He decided it was worth letting the freedom play itself out.

 

God created humans intentionally with the option to reject him because he wanted a *real* relationship with any human who was remotely willing to have one too. He knew that some would reject him and die because there isn't anything to replace him as a source of life... But he tries to fix that too: with tolerance, with mercy, with forgiveness, and eventually with incarnation, crucifixion and ressurection.

 

This is why salvation is called God's rescue -- in Christ he fixes the un-fixable by making a way through death to life, even for those of us who have often chosen death. Those who take the rescue take it. Those who reject the rescue are mourned, but respected. Everybody else... No data.

 

I really like the bolded - good analogy. 

 

Rabbit trail, sorry. I struggle with this loving parent notion. God does not behave toward me in the same way I behave toward my children. I can't imagine ever telling my children that they had to live apart from me, for eternity, due to their choices. I talk to my children. My communication to them is crystal clear. God does not speak to me in any clear, discernible way. Sure, I get feeling I can attribute to God but God has never spoken to me. Why not? He is God, He has the ability to write on the walls or something. I look at all the religions and think, "Really? You couldn't give us just a little hint as to which is right?"

 

There are plenty of hints, I think. We just often want more than hints. We want something clear and precise and that makes sense and we agree with. I'm not judging, I'm totally there with you. 

[Mom2Five]

 So, with that premise then why are we punished (sentenced to hell unless we repent and accept salvation)for being the way we were born?

I feel like I have answered everything except this. My apologies but I have extra time tonight as I am the only one awake :).

We are not punished. God is a merciful God. His mercies are new every morning (Lamentations 3?). We are not "sentenced to hell". I just believe, and I believe the Bible shows, that life without God is simply hell. Salvation is the gift of God. It is God saying that even though you broke the fellowship with me I will pay the ultimate price to get you back. God gives us the option to disobey and then offers the utmost to redeem us once we disobey. Punishment is not across the board. The punishment was death in the physical sense. Elijah and Enoch never died, but instead were taking up, "translated" from this life to the next. A bit much, I know, but it just goes to show that God views each situation on a case by case basis :).

Hell is literally life without God. See, even though people may not believe in God, it doesn't change the fact that God is there. In the sermon on the mount (Matthew 5-7ish) it says that God causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust and the sun to shine on the good and evil. You may not believe in God, but that doesn't change the fact that every single thing that has happened to you is because of God. You may spit in Gods face, but there still is God. Ecclesiastes speaks of how it is better to be a dog than a dead lion. Once your dead that's it. There are no more options.  

God is a holy God. He cannot fellowship with evil. This is why he sent his son to reunite and allow you to be in his presence. Its a rule of the universe. 2 plus 2 cannot equal 5 (thanks to my sons latest math book title).

[Mom2Five]

Rabbit trail, sorry. I struggle with this loving parent notion. God does not behave toward me in the same way I behave toward my children. I can't imagine ever telling my children that they had to live apart from me, for eternity, due to their choices. I talk to my children. My communication to them is crystal clear. God does not speak to me in any clear, discernible way. Sure, I get feeling I can attribute to God but God has never spoken to me. Why not? He is God, He has the ability to write on the walls or something. I look at all the religions and think, "Really? You couldn't give us just a little hint as to which is right?"

 

God is holy, you are not. I could never imagine saying that do my children either. I am also not holy and cannot imagine giving up my only child to save everyone else. God speaks in several different ways. Just rest assured that if God needs to tell you something he will tell you rather it be through a dream, an animal, His word... He can make stones speak. It is never about God but about our position in being able to hear him. I have never come across anything in the Bible that shows God once not being able to tell someone something.

God did give us a hint. Check out the book of Romans. You know there is a creator because there is a creation. We only have a sense of morals because of God. Ravi Zacharias is someone who can explain it much better than me.

 

eta to the which is right comment. Look up Ravi Zacharias Jesus among other gods

Edited February 25, 2016 by Mom2Five

[Katy]

nm

Edited July 22, 2016 by Katy

[purplejackmama]

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. I have no one in the "real world" to bounce off these tough questions.

 

I appreciate all your posts.

[J-rap]

I don't believe we are being punished.  I think it's simply that we are imperfect and God isn't, and the bridge for God to reach us is Christ.

 

You might find Greg Boyd's "God of the Possible" an interesting read.

 

[gardenmom5]

God does behave towards me as a loving parent (and due to a NPD grandmother who used religion and god as a weapon - this was a really hard thing for me to *feel*.), and I can see many tender kindnesses in my life of a loving parent.  I am humbled, grateful, and very touched by it. it brings me joy and happiness  - but I do have to pay attention to Him.  sometimes more than others.  (and sometimes my idea of what I need and God's idea of what I need are two entirely different things . . . . darn it.) - just as our children need to pay attention to us. and trust us that we really do have their best interests at heart.  but unlike us . . God really does *know* what our best interests are (and really does want those things for us) . .. sometimes trusting Him (and His timing) is the hardest thing of all.

 

He's telling me he loves me, and he wants me to be with Him for eternity - it is my choice to do things that bring me closer to Him OR to do things that take me away from Him. but -  it is MY choice.  I believe it is among the greatest gifts of God - freedom to choose.  I also strongly believe I will be where I am the happiest. 

 

I believe some have led such lives that they would not be happy anywhere near God.  e.g. a now self-aware hitler, who is now very sorry for the misery and death he caused, fully aware of the unjustness of all he wrought (and the full extent - more than even we can comprehend), being in the constant presense of say - a mother theresa - who spent her life lifting the downtroden and giving hope to the hopeless. . .  he would be very uncomfortable.

 

I believe hell is a teaching tool for the particularly hard headed. those who have taken joy in hurting others (whatever that form may be).   not a punishment per se.

[DawnM]

Here is what I struggle with.....I get the whole choice thing (and if you are a Calvinist you don't believe this anyway) and I get the whole "robot" thing as I have heard it all my life.

 

What I don't get is being judged for eternity based on a very limited understanding of who God is.  Heck, 5 different theologians can come up with 5 different ideas about what is true or not true.  But beyond that, many can't SEE who God is or believe in Him for whatever reason.......they don't see it, they don't understand it, or whatever.   So, based on the little info they get or don't get, they are damned to eternity everlasting in torment?

 

 

[Bluegoat]

I've been mulling this over in my brain, I would love to hear your ideas.

 

IF, we believe that God is all-knowing, then he knew the free will he gave Adam & Eve would be used incorrectly. So he knew they would disobey him. So, with that premise then why are we punished (sentenced to hell unless we repent and accept salvation)for being the way we were born? We didn't choose to disobey him, we were made like this. He made us with this sinful nature inside us.

 

Thoughts?

 

The point of the idea of free will is that there is in fact some kind of choice - they could have chosen to obey, and that would have been according to their nature, which was good.  God knew they would not choose that, but that doesn't mean it wasn't their decision.  To have been made with the capacity for free will does not mean having been made with a sinful nature, (and the text of that story clearly doesn't indicate that, it says they were, like all of creation, good.)

 

I think it also helps to frame the alienation from God in terms of natural cosequence rather than some kind of extrinsic punishment.  To reject some part of Truth means to be, at least to some degree, alienated from Truth.  To be united to the Divine life, you actually have to will to be united to the Divine life, otherwise, you aren't. 

[Bluegoat]

Here is what I struggle with.....I get the whole choice thing (and if you are a Calvinist you don't believe this anyway) and I get the whole "robot" thing as I have heard it all my life.

 

What I don't get is being judged for eternity based on a very limited understanding of who God is.  Heck, 5 different theologians can come up with 5 different ideas about what is true or not true.  But beyond that, many can't SEE who God is or believe in Him for whatever reason.......they don't see it, they don't understand it, or whatever.   So, based on the little info they get or don't get, they are damned to eternity everlasting in torment?

 

Are they though?  Perhaps they are judged based on what they know, as Paul suggests.  There is no one other than the mentally compromised who simply has no sense of an idea of right behavior or truth and falsehood - that is the most basic kind of knowing.  And perhaps they know more before they are judged, when they are looking at God?

[Bluegoat]

Rabbit trail, sorry. I struggle with this loving parent notion. God does not behave toward me in the same way I behave toward my children. I can't imagine ever telling my children that they had to live apart from me, for eternity, due to their choices. I talk to my children. My communication to them is crystal clear. God does not speak to me in any clear, discernible way. Sure, I get feeling I can attribute to God but God has never spoken to me. Why not? He is God, He has the ability to write on the walls or something. I look at all the religions and think, "Really? You couldn't give us just a little hint as to which is right?"

 

Your children might, however, choose to live apart from you.  And it is also I think possible to imagaine a scenario where a parent might say - I love you, but you can't come live in my house again while you are (using heroin, in an outlaw biker gang, whatever.)  Something that is simply incompatible with life together.

 

A traditional interpretation of the story of the expulsion from the Garden is that this was protective - to prevent them from eating from the Tree of Life while they were in a state of sin, which would have fixed them in that position.  So long as things were still open-ended, there was the possibility of reconciliation and change.

[ktgrok]

Rabbit trail, sorry. I struggle with this loving parent notion. God does not behave toward me in the same way I behave toward my children. I can't imagine ever telling my children that they had to live apart from me, for eternity, due to their choices. I talk to my children. My communication to them is crystal clear. God does not speak to me in any clear, discernible way. Sure, I get feeling I can attribute to God but God has never spoken to me. Why not? He is God, He has the ability to write on the walls or something. I look at all the religions and think, "Really? You couldn't give us just a little hint as to which is right?"

 

It's certainly not a perfect analogy, but that is because God is beyond all human concepts. And I don't feel God tells us to live apart from him, sometimes we CHOOSE to live apart from him. The same way some human children, despite our best efforts, choose to stray from us, or to cut ties with us human parents. It happens. It has happened to people on this board. 

[ktgrok]

Here is what I struggle with.....I get the whole choice thing (and if you are a Calvinist you don't believe this anyway) and I get the whole "robot" thing as I have heard it all my life.

 

What I don't get is being judged for eternity based on a very limited understanding of who God is.  Heck, 5 different theologians can come up with 5 different ideas about what is true or not true.  But beyond that, many can't SEE who God is or believe in Him for whatever reason.......they don't see it, they don't understand it, or whatever.   So, based on the little info they get or don't get, they are damned to eternity everlasting in torment?

 

I honestly am not sure what you mean here. Why would they go to hell, if that is what you are referring to, if they are doing their best to believe and just can't get there? Wouldn't God, in his mercy and total knowledge know they are doing the best they can? And wouldn't these people, who during their life couldn't understand the idea of God, actually come before God and see the truth, accept him? 

 

God isn't a jerk, he's not sending them to hell for something they had no control over. 

 

And the rational, loving agnostics and atheists I know are not going to turn their back on God once they meet him. 

 

So it's all good. 

[Chris in VA]

Here is what I struggle with.....I get the whole choice thing (and if you are a Calvinist you don't believe this anyway) and I get the whole "robot" thing as I have heard it all my life.

 

What I don't get is being judged for eternity based on a very limited understanding of who God is.  Heck, 5 different theologians can come up with 5 different ideas about what is true or not true.  But beyond that, many can't SEE who God is or believe in Him for whatever reason.......they don't see it, they don't understand it, or whatever.   So, based on the little info they get or don't get, they are damned to eternity everlasting in torment?

 

I think part of the answer for you is the difference between people and God. We are incapable of fully understanding all of God. The obedience of faith is important. It's a little like your children asking for a reason to obey a rule, a rule they may be incapable of understanding, but need to trust you about and follow. (I can't really think of a good example.) Developmentally, they just can't fully grasp it, but it's important for them to do/obey.

I trust God gives us enough to make the decision but...there's another key:

 

I think that belief is often thought of as "intellectually assenting to" something, when perhaps it's better described as "putting one's trust in" something.

 

 

[DawnM]

I think part of the answer for you is the difference between people and God. We are incapable of fully understanding all of God. The obedience of faith is important. It's a little like your children asking for a reason to obey a rule, a rule they may be incapable of understanding, but need to trust you about and follow. (I can't really think of a good example.) Developmentally, they just can't fully grasp it, but it's important for them to do/obey.

I trust God gives us enough to make the decision but...there's another key:

 

I think that belief is often thought of as "intellectually assenting to" something, when perhaps it's better described as "putting one's trust in" something.

 

I am talking about those who don't trust at all, or don't seek to further understand or grow.  Their concept of God is either that they are skeptical that he exists or that is is not a personal God.

 

I have been taught that you must have a personal relationship with the person of Jesus Christ in order to be saved and go to heaven.  All the rest go to hell, period.  No second chances.  It is a very evangelical/fundamental theology.

 

I am questioning that and have been for a very long time.

[ktgrok]

 

I have been taught that you must have a personal relationship with the person of Jesus Christ in order to be saved and go to heaven.  All the rest go to hell, period.  No second chances.  It is a very evangelical/fundamental theology.

 

I am questioning that and have been for a very long time.

 

I'd struggle with that too. I am happy to say that isn't my experience as a Christian, and never has been. Many denominations don't teach that. 

[cokers4life]

There is an interesting Christian author, Dr. Stephen Jones who demonstrates that the Mosiac Law is a revelation of God's character. He demonstrates that by God's own law he holds himself liable for all creation.

 

Here is an excerpt. He previously demonstrated God's ownership of all creation.

 

"God’s liability laws are based upon ownership, not upon free will. To prove this, let us look at some of God’s laws of liability and ownership. Exodus 21:33-34 says,

 

33 And if a man shall open a pit, or if a man shall dig a pit, and not cover it, and an ox or an ass fall therein; 34 the owner of the pit shall make it good, and give money unto the owner of them; and the dead beast shall be his.

 

The liability here is based upon ownership. If a man digs a pit and does not take the necessary steps to cover it and an ox comes along and falls in by his own “free will†or by his own stupidity, who is liable according to God’s law? It is the creator/owner of the pit who is liable, and he must then buy the dead ox for himself. The owner has to pay for it as though it were a live ox, and the dead ox is his.

 

Back in the Garden of Eden, God in effect dug a “pit†by planting the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The devil did not plant this tree. God did it, and God owned the tree. This tree provided the occasion by which Adam and Eve could “fall†into sin. It was a “pit†insofar as the law was concerned.

 

Further, God did not cover up this pit. That is, God did not put a fence around the tree to make it impossible for man to eat of it. His warning to them in Gen. 2:17 was like putting up a sign next to a pit saying, “Keep Out.†Yet because Adam and Eve were perhaps too naïve and inexperienced, they disobeyed and “fell†into that great bottomless pit, the abyss.

 

God did not cover the pit to prevent Adam’s fall. Man fell because God did not take the proper precautions that would have been necessary to prevent man from sinning. Because Adam had been given authority (“dominionâ€) in the earth in Gen. 1:26, he was most certainly liable to the extent of his authority. However, this does not absolve God of His liability as well—by His own law, which is a reflection of His righteous character.

 

Could God have prevented man from sinning? Of course He could have. He did not have to plant the tree in the first place, or if He did, He did not have to omit the fence. Even then, He did not have to create a tempter and allow him entrance into the garden. Did the tempter come in without God’s knowledge? Did God turn off the security alarms and somehow the devil entered the garden without God’s knowledge? Did God say “oops!� Is God really so ignorant?

 

The fact is that God knew the end from the beginning. He was not taken by surprise. He dug that pit and left it uncovered because He had a plan, and the plan called for man to fall. And so he did. By God’s own liability laws, then, He is responsible. So what did God do about it? He sent His only begotten Son who was lifted up on the cross in order to drag all men to Himself. He paid for the sin of the whole world because all of creation became subject to death through Adam’s fall. He bought the dead ox. The ox is now His.

 

Do you realize what this means? He bought all who fell, and they are now His. Has anyone escaped falling? At the present time it may not look like all mankind is His, but the fact is that God created them and therefore, by His own liability laws, He purchased the world. In doing so, He fulfilled the law perfectly. This is why Paul wrote in Rom. 5:18, 19,

 

18 So then as through one transgression [Adam’s sin] there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of [Christ’s] righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous."

 

All of Dr Stephen Jones books are free and quite extensive. Here is the link to that chapter where he explores free will vs God's sovereignty.

 

http://gods-kingdom-ministries.net/teachings/books/free-will-versus-ownership/chapter-2-ownership-and-liability/

 

 

 

 

 

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[bolt.]

You don't have to be a fundamentalist or an evangelical to be a Christian believer.

 

And you don't even have to believe that, "you must have a personal relationship with the person of Jesus Christ in order to be saved and go to heaven. All the rest go to hell, period. No second chances." -- to be an 'evangelical'. Many evangelicals believe in second chances, randomized mercy, hell-as-a-metaphor, or that God has some other kind of fair-and-graceful plan that just happens to be beyond our understanding.

 

(The only thing that evangelicals 'have to' believe in is the power of the gospel to immediately and fully restore human relationship with God... And that God wants very much for all people to hear it and accept it. -- It doesn't mean there aren't contingency plans in the will of a God for all humanity. It just means that God wants those who trust him to embrace the Jesus/gospel super-cosmic-game-changing-immortaliry-and-perfection plan in a wholehearted way.)

[MotherGoose]

I wish we were sitting down for coffee to hash this out. I think my word choice is lacking.

 

Ok, I get the non-robot thing. But, why does God punish us when we are behaving exactly the way he made us.

 

Does that make sense?

God wanted to give us the freedom to choose to love him. He didn't want robots.

[gardenmom5]

Man fell because God did not take the proper precautions that would have been necessary to prevent man from sinning. B

 

sounds like you're saying God made a mistake . . . 

[cokers4life]

That's an excellent point. Dr Stephen Jones goes on to describe sin as missing the mark. God has a plan to reveal himself to all mankind and save all mankind whether before the first death or the second death. For Him to sin is to miss the mark of His plan. We sin when we miss the mark that our Owner sets for us. He set a mark and when all things have been put under His feet, will we see His plan complete.

 

Here is another chapter that covers his view more extensively and deals with "did God sin?"

 

http://gods-kingdom-ministries.net/teachings/books/creations-jubilee/chapter-13-the-tension-in-creation/

 

 

 

 

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[Entropymama]

The theology of inherited sin is a Western one.  Eastern Orthodox faiths might appeal to you more.  To them, we are trapped by death, not by sin.  And Jesus freed us from death, not from sin.

 

Full disclosure:  100% of my knowledge of this came from a book by a Methodist pastor - Christianity's Family Tree by Adam Hamilton.

 

I'm not certain this is correct. I'm from a Western tradition but I believe Jesus freed us from death, not sin. That's why as believers we still sin. 

 

Here is what I struggle with.....I get the whole choice thing (and if you are a Calvinist you don't believe this anyway) and I get the whole "robot" thing as I have heard it all my life.

 

What I don't get is being judged for eternity based on a very limited understanding of who God is.  Heck, 5 different theologians can come up with 5 different ideas about what is true or not true.  But beyond that, many can't SEE who God is or believe in Him for whatever reason.......they don't see it, they don't understand it, or whatever.   So, based on the little info they get or don't get, they are damned to eternity everlasting in torment?

 

My understanding doesn't line up with this. Those who have never heard are given special grace. Those whose faith is marred by the actions of others (molestation by a pastor, emotional or physical abuse, twisted teaching) have special grace. The truth is, we don't really understand what happens when we reach the judgement seat but we know that God desires for all of us to have his mercy. That's why we're careful never to assume anyone didn't make it to heaven. 

 

sounds like you're saying God made a mistake . . . 

 I'm not sure you read her post all the way through. 

 

"He dug that pit and left it uncovered because He had a plan, and the plan called for man to fall. And so he did. By God’s own liability laws, then, He is responsible. So what did God do about it? He sent His only begotten Son who was lifted up on the cross in order to drag all men to Himself. He paid for the sin of the whole world because all of creation became subject to death through Adam’s fall. He bought the dead ox. The ox is now His."

[purplejackmama]

I'm not certain this is correct. I'm from a Western tradition but I believe Jesus freed us from death, not sin. That's why as believers we still sin. [/size][/font][/color]

So if God created us with no freedom from sin, then why are we held responsible for sinning? This is how he made us.

[EmseB]

So if God created us with no freedom from sin, then why are we held responsible for sinning? This is how he made us.

 

Have you read Romans 8 and 9?  (I'm not asking to be snarky, I'm wondering what your take on them is because they seem to answer this question)

 

ETA: when I was in a non-denominational church that was largely Arminian in theology, I too had these same questions and Romans really confounded me because it didn't seem to jive with what I was being taught in church, and it was often glossed over with a lot of hand waving or not addressed at all.

Edited February 25, 2016 by JodiSue

[purplejackmama]

Have you read Romans 8 and 9? (I'm not asking to be snarky, I'm wondering what your take on them is because they seem to answer this question)

 

ETA: when I was in a non-denominational church that was largely Arminian in theology, I too had these same questions and Romans really confounded me because it didn't seem to jive with what I was being taught in church, and it was often glossed over with a lot of hand waving or not addressed at all.

Not recently. Thank you for the recommendation. That is exactly how I feel!! Glossed over with padded answers. I appreciate your thoughtful response. After nearly 25 years of faith, I'm struggling.

[gardenmom5]

 

 

My understanding doesn't line up with this. Those who have never heard are given special grace. Those whose faith is marred by the actions of others (molestation by a pastor, emotional or physical abuse, twisted teaching) have special grace. The truth is, we don't really understand what happens when we reach the judgement seat but we know that God desires for all of us to have his mercy. That's why we're careful never to assume anyone didn't make it to heaven. 

 

:iagree:   This.  God knows our hearts, and how circumstances and poor choices of others have affected us.  he also knows if we're making poor choices becasue we were damaged, or poor choices because we simply don't care. (yes, I know this is overly simplistic.)

 

 I'm not sure you read her post all the way through. 

 

 

"He dug that pit and left it uncovered because He had a plan, and the plan called for man to fall. And so he did. By God’s own liability laws, then, He is responsible. So what did God do about it? He sent His only begotten Son who was lifted up on the cross in order to drag all men to Himself. He paid for the sin of the whole world because all of creation became subject to death through Adam’s fall. He bought the dead ox. The ox is now His."

 

 

Glad to know I missed something . . . . .

 

 

[Katy]

Eastern view on Augustine's take on Original Sin:  https://oca.org/questions/teaching/st.-augustine-original-sin

 

A much longer & more nuanced take on inherited vs ancestral sin in EO: http://pemptousia.com/2011/11/original-sin-orthodox-doctrine-or-heresy/

 

 

[6packofun]

 

 

And the rational, loving agnostics and atheists I know are not going to turn their back on God once they meet him. 

 

So it's all good. 

 

So...basically everyone goes to heaven except the reallllly stubborn?  Do you mean when they meet God in heaven or in this life?

 

I'm not sure if what you're saying is that everyone gets a pass on their decisions about God in this life--because we're ALL making one other than those without the mental capacity--and as soon as they get to actually BE in His presence, which is what so many are clamoring for in this life as the only acceptable proof of His existence to precede belief/faith, it'll be an "Oh, I should have had a V-8!" head bonking moment and God will take that as repentance, love and acceptance of Him as their Savior?  So faith really does NOT matter.  ?

[Bluegoat]

So...basically everyone goes to heaven except the reallllly stubborn?  Do you mean when they meet God in heaven or in this life?

 

I'm not sure if what you're saying is that everyone gets a pass on their decisions about God in this life--because we're ALL making one other than those without the mental capacity--and as soon as they get to actually BE in His presence, which is what so many are clamoring for in this life as the only acceptable proof of His existence to precede belief/faith, it'll be an "Oh, I should have had a V-8!" head bonking moment and God will take that as repentance, love and acceptance of Him as their Savior?  So faith really does NOT matter.  ?

 

There have historically been a number of CHristian thinkers, who were considered quite orthodox,  who believed that all people would ultimatly choose God.

 

Personally I think it is a little more complicated than what we intellectually assent to - what we do can also be a kind of expression about what we believe and what is important to our deepest selves.  And what we do can shape the kind of person we become, that is part of what it means to make a choice, even a seemingly small one, on a day to day basis.  This is why Christianity has tended to emphasize good habits as important.

 

I tend to think that there will be many people who are surprised to have been choosing God all along, while others will be surprised to find they really haven't.

[cokers4life]

I feel this is related to some of things being said about the removal of death and removal of sin so I going to just throw it out there.

 

I was reading Dr Jones work on the Mosiac law prophesying the two works of Christ. In his first coming, He died to pay the wages of our sin but He didn't remove sin. Instead sin was covered. In His second coming, he will remove sin.

 

On the day of atonement two goats are brought forth. 1st is killed to cover sin and the 2nd is sent out into the wilderness to remove sin.

 

For the law of leprosy, two doves are brought forth. The 1st killed and the second was smeared with the blood of the first and released.

 

Excerpt:

" As for the two goats in the ritual of the Day of Atonement, these deal not with the death question, but rather the sin question. Again, there are two stages by which our sin is eradicated. The first goat covered our sin; the second will remove it. We will show that the first goat (Christ) was killed in order to atone for (cover) our sin by His blood. The second goat was different in that it removed all sin to a land not inhabited. This shows us that the second coming of Christ will accomplish the removal of sin from our bodies."......

 

"The ceremony did not end there. The law tells us that the second bird was to be dipped in the blood of the first and let loose in the open field without experiencing death. Now we know that only a small amount of blood comes from a bird when it is killed. To dip the bird into the blood of the bird that had been killed does NOT indicate an immersion. There is no way that one could immerse the second bird in the blood of the first. The blood was smeared across the back of the wings of the second bird before the priest set it free in the open field. This tells us that the second work of Christ is based upon the first work and is indeed made possible by His death on the cross.

 

Jesus' appearing as the second dove is depicted in Revelation 19:11-13,

 

11 And I saw heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True; and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 And His eyes are a flame of fire, and upon His head are many diadems; and He has a name written upon Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 And He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood; and His name is called The Word of God."

 

http://gods-kingdom-ministries.net/teachings/books/the-laws-of-the-second-coming/chapter-10-the-two-works-of-christ/

 

Dr Jones is a prolific writer and he also wrote a commentary on Romans. He takes on those difficult passages in a very interesting way. I would say he is very close to what early church fathers taught (except for Augustine). I of course don't care for the teachings of Augustine. He doesn't get his ideas from the Bible in my opinion but from Greek philosophy and his Machean past.

 

 

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[ktgrok]

So...basically everyone goes to heaven except the reallllly stubborn?  Do you mean when they meet God in heaven or in this life?

 

I'm not sure if what you're saying is that everyone gets a pass on their decisions about God in this life--because we're ALL making one other than those without the mental capacity--and as soon as they get to actually BE in His presence, which is what so many are clamoring for in this life as the only acceptable proof of His existence to precede belief/faith, it'll be an "Oh, I should have had a V-8!" head bonking moment and God will take that as repentance, love and acceptance of Him as their Savior?  So faith really does NOT matter.  ?

 

Well, no V8 bonking of the head. More falling down in worship and repentance. But otherwise, yes. I'm not the only one that thinks so.