Conceptual Chemistry questions

[mom31257]

I am going to be leading a small co-op group next year in Chemistry. We meet every other week (16 or so times throughout the year) and do labs and review of concepts they've already worked on at home. I'm considering Dr. Wile's 2nd edition or newest edition of chemistry. I know both are math-heavy, and I will have a couple of students who consider math their worst subject. 

 

I'm wondering if I could possibly use Conceptual Chemistry. I'll have a couple of students who love math, so I hate to leave math behind for them. Here are some of my questions.

 

1) I'll have some very fundamental families. Will there be offensive material for those who are young earth? (I couldn't really imagine there being, but you never know.)

 

2) Is there any math, and what normal chemistry math is left out?

 

3) Can the chapters be finished in 2 weeks time? I was thinking I could add in some of the math concepts skipped possibly in the last few weeks we meet. 

 

4) Are there labs included, and will they be easy to implement like Apologia's (kitchen, no expensive equipment)?

 

5) I like the idea of the video resources. It says there are others when you register. Are there tests included in the book or online?

 

6) Are the books expensive? Are they easy to find along with the teacher's edition?

 

7) Has anyone ever tried to combine CC with Apologia?

 

Thanks for any help!

[Lori D.]

1. will fundamentalists be offended?

That almost sounds like the punchline to a joke… ;) And while it's very hard to second-guess what people will or will not be offended by, I don't recall any old/young earth comments or evolution comments -- but then, our family always tried to learn about / discuss science from multiple perspectives, so if there had been some content along those lines, would not have stood out to us or offended us. I DID appreciate that Suchocki lays out his perspective and personal viewpoint in either the intro or chap. 1, so that you know from what perspective the text is written. There's just not much in the way of old/young earth, evolution/creationism, etc. in the typical high school Chemistry list of topics...

 

2. any math? what traditional math is left out?

We used the 2nd edition (2003) of CC. While the chapters have been significantly reordered, I believe the actual content is very much the same -- but I just wanted to preface that I am speaking about the math content of the old edition. :)

 

Stoichiometry (balancing equations) is left out. Scientific notation and metric conversion is included, but only in very small amounts. Can't remember if there was any work (add/subtract/multiply/divide) with exponents or not. I don't remember math-based problems in the text, but it's been 5 years since we used it… The maths that are included were very basic and easy even for my Algebra-struggler to grasp. Instead of math, it was the chapters on atomic structure were a stumbling block for him -- we had to go looking for some supplements to help make that more clear for him.

 

3. schedule 1 chapter per 2 weeks?

Depends on your students. I was using CC with a non-STEM student with mild LDs, so we tended to spread out the high school science credits to take it at his speed. However, we also did not need to cover all of the chapters in CC because a few of them overlapped with topics we had just covered with previous years of science. So you very likely would only need to cover chapters 1-12 of CC, and could skip chapters 13-17. (Here is the CC table of contents -- identical for 4th and 5th editions.) With a 36-week school year, that gives you 3 weeks per chapter -- and several of the chapters would NOT need more than 1 week, so that gives you loads of "wiggle room" for taking longer for the "hard" chapters, and for using supplemental materials.

 

4. labs?

No labs included in the text. There are a few VERY brief demonstrations included in the chapters that used readily available items from the kitchen. We initially attempted to use the Micro-Chem 3000 kit to go along with CC, but became VERY frustrated with that kit -- several labs were difficult-to-impossible for us to get them to work, and several others left us scratching our heads as to what the point was. We ended up dropping that kit and used several TOPS units for labs: Analysis, Solutions, Oxidation, Adhesion & Cohesion, and Heat.

 

For the 4th and 5th editions, there is a lab manual put out by Suchocki. According to the description, it has 20 labs closely linked to the text.

 

5. videos? tests?

VIDEOS: We only used the ones on the website -- our edition was older than the one that the videos were matched to, so we had to juggle the videos around to figure out how to match them up with the order of our older edition textbook. We bought our edition second-hand, so no availability for us to register online to access additional videos. There were quite a few videos on the website (at least years ago -- it may have changed), and I probably would not have used any more videos than what were available on the website.

 

TESTS: There were no tests included in our older edition textbook. I used selected questions from the end-of-chapter questions to make tests. There are worksheets and other free teacher resources on the website, under the heading of "Instructors: Resources for Teaching" -- you may have to email and ask to register as a homeschooler to have access.

 

6. expensive? easy to find?

Our 2nd edition textbook cost about $35 when I bought it used, just before the 4th edition came out. I thought that was very reasonable. If your families all need to buy the current edition (5th ed, pub. in 2014), yes that will be expensive -- it runs over $160 on Amazon. I believe the website was "keyed" to go with the 4th ed. (pub. in 2010), so if your families are fine with an older textbook, that only runs about $30-35 used. Both the 4th & 5th editions are widely available on Amazon.

 

There is no Teacher Edition for CC that I know of. There is a Laboratory Manual that goes with the 4th and 5th editions -- the 4th ed. = $5-13 (3 copies available at Amazon used), and the 5th ed. =  $35-45 (LOTS of new and used copies available at Amazon).

 

7. combine CC with Apologia?

No. We didn't do that, and, just me, I personally wouldn't care to do that. We did  Apologia Chemistry with DS#1, and CC with DS#2, so I am familiar with both. I'm not quite sure why you would want to do that, as the content overlaps quite a lot… Really, I think it's a matter of "do you need the extra math chapters of Apologia or not", and, "what textbook writing and layout connects better for your co-op students".

 

Just our experience: We found Apologia difficult to use due to the extremely dry and overly-wordy written text and poor layout (overly wide page, with not enough "white space" in the margins, making the lines of text run so long that you lose your place when trying to jump down to the next line of type). We also did not care for many of the labs, and preferred those in the TOPS units that we used to go along with CC. The shorter lines, broken into shorter sections, with visual illustrations on each page was MUCH easier to follow for DS#2 with the mild LDs. We also found the writing of CC is more informal, more interesting, and easier to understand as well (far less "textbook-y" than Apologia). CC does not go into as much depth as Apologia. So, will you have more analytical and STEM-based students (Apologia)? Or will you have more non-STEM, math-struggler or science-struggler students (CC, or Friendly Chemistry, or other lighter Chemistry option)?

 

Okay, I did think of a reason you might do both… If you are planning on a co-op class that just answers questions about the topics of the chapter and does labs together, and you want to give families the choice of either book. If that's the case, then you'd probably have to do something like use Apologia as the "spine" and go in order with those topics, and plug in the CC chapters as they match up. For the Apologia chapters where there is no equivalent for CC, you may need to find some free, online resource to cover the topics...

 

 

Hope something there is of help towards your planning. :) Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Lori D.

[mom31257]

Thanks, Lori D.! You are so awesome!

 

 

[KarenNC]

If you are looking for free online resources for Apologia, check out the Virtual Homeschool Group. We haven't used their science courses, but have used other courses through them and they are a great resource. There is also a way they have in place for use with co-ops, but I haven't explored that. http://www.virtualhomeschoolgroup.org/is the main page, and this is the article on co-op use https://virtualhomeschoolgroup.desk.com/customer/en/portal/articles/1354294-can-my-local-co-op-use-your-courses-   (looks like you may have to copy and paste this second link)

Edited February 24, 2016 by KarenNC

[ChemMommy]

If you are wanting this to replace chemistry for high school, please know that CC would be very, very basic. Your child would be hitting college chemistry FAR less prepared than his peers. Apologia (2nd) is also less than complete, unless you do the Advanced chem course also.

 

If this is just an "exposure to chem" kind of class, then CC is fine. If it is to prepare for college science, then, no! Chemistry has lots of math and skipping stoichiometry, a vital concept in chemistry, is not acceptable. Can you let the parents choose which chem text to use and just do the labs in co-op?

 

I have taught chemistry at a 4-year liberal arts college for 25 years. Please do not expect your child to pass the class without decent background. We have a 30% DFW rate for gen chem 1 (D in class, F in class, withdraw from class). In the last 5 years, not a single person without high school chemistry has completed the first semester.

Edited February 24, 2016 by ChemMommy

[mom31257]

If you are wanting this to replace chemistry for high school, please know that CC would be very, very basic. Your child would be hitting college chemistry FAR less prepared than his peers. Apologia (2nd) is also less than complete, unless you do the Advanced chem course also.

 

If this is just an "exposure to chem" kind of class, then CC is fine. If it is to prepare for college science, then, no! Chemistry has lots of math and skipping stoichiometry, a vital concept in chemistry, is not acceptable. Can you let the parents choose which chem text to use and just do the labs in co-op?

 

I have taught chemistry at a 4-year liberal arts college for 25 years. Please do not expect your child to pass the class without decent background. We have a 30% DFW rate for gen chem 1 (D in class, F in class, withdraw from class). In the last 5 years, not a single person without high school chemistry has completed the first semester.

 

I am polling the parents to see what they want from chemistry. I don't know that any of these students will go to college and be science majors. So far I've heard one is going to major in art/design, another in history, and one is looking at joining the military. 

 

I would want to add in some of the skipped math stuff just because I love balancing equations and can't imagine doing chemistry without it!

 

I am surprised about the Apologia book. It's what I used with dd in her junior year. She used Apologia Biology, Dive ICP, and did a self-made course in Astronomy. She made a 35 on the science section of the ACT. She just finished up her college chemistry class with a 97 average, and the class was not for the faint of heart.  

Edited February 24, 2016 by mom31257

[regentrude]

I have taught chemistry at a 4-year liberal arts college for 25 years. Please do not expect your child to pass the class without decent background. We have a 30% DFW rate for gen chem 1 (D in class, F in class, withdraw from class). In the last 5 years, not a single person without high school chemistry has completed the first semester.

 

may I ask a question?

I am curious whether the reason for your (bolded) observation is actually chemistry, or rather math?

I would suspect the kids who did not take chemistry in high school to be kids who struggle with math and have a weak (pre)algebra foundation

I teach introductory physics, and the biggest obstacle for students is a lack of math skills; whether students actually had physics in high school does not seem to be relevant (in fact, I'd rather they had none than the crummy physics classes that are taught at most schools)

 

I mean, there is nothing difficult about stoichiometry if you understand ratios... a student who has a firm grasp on math should understand it when it is explained the first time. But a student who does not understand rations won't get stoich even after the third repeat...

Edited February 24, 2016 by regentrude

[mom31257]

may I ask a question?

I am curious whether the reason for your (bolded) observation is actually chemistry, or rather math?

I would suspect the kids who did not take chemistry in high school to be kids who struggle with math and have a weak (pre)algebra foundation

I teach introductory physics, and the biggest obstacle for students is a lack of math skills; whether students actually had physics in high school does not seem to be relevant (in fact, I'd rather they had none than the crummy physics classes that are taught at most schools)

 

I mean, there is nothing difficult about stoichiometry if you understand ratios... a student who has a firm grasp on math should understand it when it is explained the first time. But a student who does not understand rations won't get stoich even after the third repeat...

 

I bet the math is a large part of it. Dd said that some of her chemistry lab partners just couldn't think logically at all either, and several dropped out. My dh teaches public high school but not science. He says that students come to high school with very little knowledge because memorizing is seen as tedious and boring work for the earlier years. 

 

Dd didn't plan on entering a science field (said she never would) until late high school. I had focused on history, literature, and writing. She only did Algebra 1, Geometry, and Algebra 2 before doing College Algebra. I did make sure she knew it well could do math in her head. I really worried about how she would do in college sciences, but she proved herself science credible right off the bat. 

Edited February 25, 2016 by mom31257