law school admissions ???

[teachermom2834]

Disclaimer- I know the job market has not been good for lawyers and it is something many people discourage.  BUT, my high schooler has identified law school as a goal.  I think it highly likely he will change his mind but planning for undergrad is difficult without some idea of where you would like to end up. So, I would like to support my son in looking at that path. So, while I value all opinions I would like something other than "don't do it!" 

 

We have no lawyers in our family or social circle.  How does one go about gaining admission to law school? What are good undergrad degrees? Is it important where you go to undergrad or is it mostly test scores that are important? Is getting into law school cutthroat (not Ivy League type places) or is it pretty attainable? What do I need to know to help my son choose a college and major?

 

Thinking about all of this because he will be starting dual enrollment at the college he will possibly attend for undergrad so if I can look a bit into the future at what his possible majors will be I can try to choose dual enrollment classes that will count towards his major.  I know he is likely to change his mind and that is great but it is nice to have some sort of plan when choosing classes and looking at colleges.

 

I am thinking that some major that would be good for law school but also could work if he wanted to go for an MBA or something else isn't a bad idea.  It is very possible he will be living at home and have scholarships cover his undergrad tuition.  So, it isn't like he will be going in debt for this 4 year degree.  

 

Thoughts???

[GAPeachie]

Most of the lawyers I know are english, political science or history majors for undergrad.  Some schools offer "pre-law" but I don't know of anyone personally that went that route.  

[brehon]

The degree by and large doesn't seem to matter, though many students major in history, gov't, business, etc.

 

What does matter immensely is his university GPA and LSAT score. Law schools are ranked in tiers in much the same way universities are. The difference is that, because of the glut of newly minted lawyers, many firms (especially the big firms) don't usually hire from third tier law schools.

 

If your ds also had a unique skill set (MBA or engineering degree, for example) that would probably make him more attractive to both law schools and later employers.

 

I believe Ravin has recently completed law school if you want to send her a PM.

[Tsuga]

Analytic philosophy is another route. Highest LSAT scores. ;)

 

http://webs.purduecal.edu/philosophy/graduate-school-preparation/

 

http://www.nationaljurist.com/content/classics-philosophy-majors-do-best-when-it-comes-getting-law-school

 

http://blogs.lmu.edu/philosophy/the-most-important-reason-to-study-philosophy/philosophy-majors-rule-the-tests/average-lsat-scores-by-major/

 

 

Just sayin'...

 

(Plus philosophy and classics are really fun and challenging!)

Edited February 22, 2016 by Tsuga

[madteaparty]

 

Is he aiming for a top law school? I would, because job prospects are very different at the top, and if you aim high but go a slightly less well ranked school, you can get lots of aid.

In my experience, which is a few years old, LSAT score is the most important determinant. Pedigree of undergrad and GPA are the other two, but nothing like the weight of the LSAT.

If your child is interested in something like appellate practice, there's only a few schools to go for that, because they are "feeders" for the correct clerkships.

[wapiti]

There is no need to major in anything specific.  GPA and LSAT are paramount.  Top law schools do indeed take into account the reputation of the undergrad institution with regard to GPA weight, but I don't know the extent.

 

He should major in something which interests him and which he might want a career involving, should law school not work out for whatever reason.  An undergrad major might also point toward a particular niche within the law.  If he wants to stand out, my suggestion would be to avoid English, history and poly sci types of majors, though I think that is secondary to choosing a major that he likes/loves.

 

(I happen to think math would be a great major due to the proof writing.  Prior to law school, my dh was an engineering major at a service academy; my major was economics.  Engineering is a great background for intellectual property and econ is a great background for antitrust, not that either of us took those paths exactly.)

 

He should aim for law schools that are either (1) in the town in which he'd like to practice, and/or (2) as highly-ranked as possible.  If he might want to work at a big firm in a big city, tier is very important.  Some salary info is available at NALP.  It is critical to compare law school cost to salary levels of jobs that are typically available from the types of law schools the student can get into.  Financial aid tends to be minimal and scholarships are hard to come by, though they do exist.

Edited February 23, 2016 by wapiti

[brehon]

Also, when applying to law schools, he should research the schools' placement/employment rates of recent graduates *in the legal field*. Unfortunately, some schools will publish recent employment rates of their grads, but include employment outside the legal field (i.e., baristas, waiters, etc).

[plansrme]

I went to a top 15 law school and worked for a while in a major U.S. law firm.  My undergraduate major was agricultural economics.  My application essay actually noted that I was not one of those people going to law school because she couldn't get a job in her English/history/poly sci degree.  So major in what you want.  I had classmates with engineering, physics, business, English (of course) and a number of other undergraduate majors.  You write a lot in law school and in the practice of law, so my only suggestion is to take some classes in which you practice writing under pressure.  Then go to the highest-ranked law school you can get into and work your hiney off for the highest class rank you can.

 

Where you go to undergrad matters to the top-tier law schools.  There are plenty of students from Big State Us but not that many from directional schools.  My class, for example, had a couple of us from decent Big State U (Auburn, U of Illinois), several from more prestigious Big State Us (U Michigan, for example), one kid from a second-tier state U (he had played football there), and about a hundred from pretty selective LACs and the Ivies and near-Ivies--Duke, Davidson, Vanderbilt, that sort of thing.  It is still difficult to get into a top-tier law school. I personally wouldn't go these days if I couldn't get into a top twenty'ish school or had a fabulous bargain on tuition.

[Ravin]

GPA and LSAT are definitely important. My undergrad was in anthropology. I knew people from all sorts of undergrad backgrounds in law school, many of whom had worked in other career fields before law school. Several teachers, engineers, and former social workers along with people with the more traditional degrees in history, philosophy, poly sci, etc. Sciences are something worth looking at--there is a lot of need for people who can function intelligently at the point where law and science meet. But most importantly, he should major in whatever he has a strong interest in that will hold his attention and lend itself to a strong GPA, especially if he wants to head straight into law school after college.

 

The LSAT is all about verbal reasoning skills. It is nothing like as challenging as GRE's or the MCAT (that is my completely uninformed opinion based upon how well I did on the LSAT and how intimidating the GRE's and MCAT appeared to me when I looked in to taking them).

 

I would worry less about finding a top-tier cutthroat law school than about finding a good law school that has concentrated clinical/elective courses in areas of law he thinks he might be interested in--in my case, the school I chose I chose in part because of the Law and Science program (which I then wound up not actually doing, because once I was there I decided Federal Indian Law was more interesting and got a certificate in that)--and a good track record for their students passing the bar on the first try and finding law jobs after.

 

If he's interested in public interest work, his law school GPA is not going to be that big a deal. In the end, the only law school grade that absolutely matters is the bar exam score. It matters more if he wants to shoot for a big-firm high power type career. I was shooting for a living wage and work/life balance so didn't even contemplate going that route. I had a B average in law school and wasn't ranked because I took an extra year to graduate. I was hired to work as a tribal public defender right after the bar exam. I had some friends who had jobs lined up before they even graduated (one who got a DOJ fellowship), and some who are still looking.

 

My law school alma mater ties with Boston University at #26 in the US News and World Report law school rankings.

 

The career field for law pretty notoriously tanked during the recession, but it has been improving.

[plansrme]

 

I would worry less about finding a top-tier cutthroat law school than about finding a good law school that has concentrated clinical/elective courses in areas of law he thinks he might be interested in--in my case, the school I chose I chose in part because of the Law and Science program (which I then wound up not actually doing, because once I was there I decided Federal Indian Law was more interesting and got a certificate in that)--and a good track record for their students passing the bar on the first try and finding law jobs after.

 

If he's interested in public interest work, his law school GPA is not going to be that big a deal. In the end, the only law school grade that absolutely matters is the bar exam score. It matters more if he wants to shoot for a big-firm high power type career. I was shooting for a living wage and work/life balance so didn't even contemplate going that route. I had a B average in law school and wasn't ranked because I took an extra year to graduate. I was hired to work as a tribal public defender right after the bar exam. I had some friends who had jobs lined up before they even graduated (one who got a DOJ fellowship), and some who are still looking.

 

My law school alma mater ties with Boston University at #26 in the US News and World Report law school rankings.

 

The career field for law pretty notoriously tanked during the recession, but it has been improving.

 

If you plan to repay the cost of law school, you do indeed need to focus on top grades at a top-tier law school.  If you are not borrowing (or not borrowing much) to pay for law school or do not intend to repay those loans, grades and tier are much less important.  

Edited February 23, 2016 by plansrme

[Ravin]

If you plan to repay the cost of law school, you do indeed need to focus on top grades at a top-tier law school.  If you are not borrowing (or not borrowing much) to pay for law school or do not intend to repay those loans, grades and tier are much less important.  

 

If you are interested in a field of law that is public interest work (nonprofit community legal services, public defender, prosecutor), then income based loan repayment for ten years plus the Federal Loan Forgiveness program takes care of the loans. How the loans are going to be dealt with is definitely something to have an idea of going in. Law school is expensive even at relatively inexpensive law schools, and you can't just pretend away the loans afterward. Also, if you are borrowing for school, failure is not an option.

[madteaparty]

Also, if you have some manner of math background, and maybe some career in technology, patent law is a lucrative niche area in which the experience prior to law school matters. More of an exception to the rule, but it occurred to me just now.

[teachermom2834]

Thanks for all the info!  I know he will likely change his mind but I like to encourage this kid when he is working toward something.

[madteaparty]

Thanks for all the info! I know he will likely change his mind but I like to encourage this kid when he is working toward something.

There's worse things ;)

Mine wants to be a writer. I'm saving for law school*

*secretly!!

Edited February 23, 2016 by madteaparty

[daijobu]

Also, if you have some manner of math background, and maybe some career in technology, patent law is a lucrative niche area in which the experience prior to law school matters. More of an exception to the rule, but it occurred to me just now.

 

All the lawyers I know studied engineering or some quantitative field.  Don't discourage your ds from studying the law.  There's still a need for excellent lawyers from the top law schools, and they get paid buckets of money.  

[Ravin]

There's worse things ;)

Mine wants to be a writer. I'm saving for law school*

*secretly!!

 

Lawyers do get paid to write. Just not too creatively.

[TranquilMind]

Disclaimer- I know the job market has not been good for lawyers and it is something many people discourage.  BUT, my high schooler has identified law school as a goal.  I think it highly likely he will change his mind but planning for undergrad is difficult without some idea of where you would like to end up. So, I would like to support my son in looking at that path. So, while I value all opinions I would like something other than "don't do it!" 

 

We have no lawyers in our family or social circle.  How does one go about gaining admission to law school? What are good undergrad degrees? Is it important where you go to undergrad or is it mostly test scores that are important? Is getting into law school cutthroat (not Ivy League type places) or is it pretty attainable? What do I need to know to help my son choose a college and major?

 

Thinking about all of this because he will be starting dual enrollment at the college he will possibly attend for undergrad so if I can look a bit into the future at what his possible majors will be I can try to choose dual enrollment classes that will count towards his major.  I know he is likely to change his mind and that is great but it is nice to have some sort of plan when choosing classes and looking at colleges.

 

I am thinking that some major that would be good for law school but also could work if he wanted to go for an MBA or something else isn't a bad idea.  It is very possible he will be living at home and have scholarships cover his undergrad tuition.  So, it isn't like he will be going in debt for this 4 year degree.  

 

Thoughts???

Honestly, the undergrad degree doesn't really matter so long as he did well. Many come from Polysci, Economics, English, or other similar fields.  Some come from a STEM background and end up doing patent work. 

 

We have relatives who are joint MBA/JD's.  

 

Admission is competitive.  He should try to work for an attorney group in the summer, doing anything.  Then the attorneys will write him a recommendation letter.  Those help. 

[Mabelen]

The one person I personally know to go the law school route graduated double major in economics and political science from UCLA. He must have gotten good grades because he got honors cords I think from one of his majors. He applied to top law schools. He got into Harvard off the wait list but decided to go to Berkeley instead. He is finishing in May and has already a well paid job lined up where he interned last summer. He is definitely one the youngest in his class. Most did other things for a couple of years before law school.

[Bootsie]

Any major that develops good reading, writing, thinking, and speaking skills can be good for someone wanting to go to law school.  If there is some particular type of law he is wanting to specialize in, he might consider a major in which he can gain special skills:  a finance major might specialize in securities law, an accounting major might specialize in tax law, a biology major might specialize in health care related law, etc.

[Lawyer&Mom]

Keep your GPA up. Major in whatever will keep your GPA up. Find a way to ace the LSAT. (At the very least take a prep class.). Your GPA and your LSAT basically determine what schools accept you. At the top it is very lockstep. Definitely avoid undergrad debt. Law schools have jacked up tuition in the last decade. Finally, make sure you want to be a lawyer. I absolutely loved law school. Loved it. But you don't want to take on the cost just because you don't know what else to do after graduation.

[Lawyer&Mom]

Also. Majoring in pre-law just seems silly. Round your self out a bit first! You will learn more than enough law in law school.

[JennyD]

 

I teach at a law school.  A few thoughts:

 

(1) On choice of undergrad:  I have heard a lot of opinions on the question of undergrad selectivity and law school admission, and I am just not convinced one way or the other.  Until someone shows me some actual data to the contrary, I myself would focus on choosing a college where my child could thrive and could graduate without much debt.

 

(2) On choice of major:  I agree with everyone who said to pick a major he loves and can do well in.  In my purely anecdotal observation, top law students have all kinds of backgrounds -- everything from French literature to mechanical engineering.

 

(3) For data on law schools and employment, check out 

http://abovethelaw.com/

Go to Career Center, then Law School Directory.  Once you call up a school, click on the "Employment" tab.  The key statistic you are looking for -- and I can't emphasize this enough -- is the "Bar Passage Required" number.  That is the percentage of 2013 graduates working in full-time, long-term positions in the field of law.  

 

(4) Finally, if your son is still interested in law school by the time he's ready to graduate from undergrad, I would strongly, STRONGLY urge him to spend some time actually working with lawyers -- whether it's in a law firm, a public interest organization, or the like.  One of the great misconceptions of law school is that it "keeps your options open."  This is not true.  Law school is professional school.  It is not graduate school in the liberal arts.  (I should note here that I have both a Ph.D. and a law degree, so I've been through both.)  Law schools train lawyers, and everything about it -- from the curriculum to the advising to the placement office -- is focused on getting you out into the world to be a lawyer.  Different law schools have different approaches to this process, but the agenda is the same:  making lawyers.  So it is a really good idea to make sure that you genuinely want to be a lawyer before going to law school.  There are a lot of lawyers out there who hate their jobs, and the statistics on depression in the legal profession are startling.  

 

Edited February 23, 2016 by JennyD

[teachermom2834]

 

 

I teach at a law school. A few thoughts:

 

(1) On choice of undergrad: I have heard a lot of opinions on the question of undergrad selectivity and law school admission, and I am just not convinced one way or the other. Until someone shows me some actual data to the contrary, I myself would focus on choosing a college where my child could thrive and could graduate without much debt.

 

(2) On choice of major: I agree with everyone who said to pick a major he loves and can do well in. In my purely anecdotal observation, top law students have all kinds of backgrounds -- everything from French literature to mechanical engineering.

 

(3) For data on law schools and employment, check out

http://abovethelaw.com/

Go to Career Center, then Law School Directory. Once you call up a school, click on the "Employment" tab. The key statistic you are looking for -- and I can't emphasize this enough -- is the "Bar Passage Required" number. That is the percentage of 2013 graduates working in full-time, long-term positions in the field of law.

 

(4) Finally, if your son is still interested in law school by the time he's ready to graduate from undergrad, I would strongly, STRONGLY urge him to spend some time actually working with lawyers -- whether it's in a law firm, a public interest organization, or the like. One of the great misconceptions of law school is that it "keeps your options open." This is not true. Law school is professional school. It is not graduate school in the liberal arts. (I should note here that I have both a Ph.D. and a law degree, so I've been through both.) Law schools train lawyers, and everything about it -- from the curriculum to the advising to the placement office -- is focused on getting you out into the world to be a lawyer. Different law schools have different approaches to this process, but the agenda is the same: making lawyers. So it is a really good idea to make sure that you genuinely want to be a lawyer before going to law school. There are a lot of lawyers out there who hate their jobs, and the statistics on depression in the legal profession are startling.

Very helpful. Thank you!

[paulasue]

 

 

 So it is a really good idea to make sure that you genuinely want to be a lawyer before going to law school.  There are a lot of lawyers out there who hate their jobs, and the statistics on depression in the legal profession are startling.  

 

 

I would also add that you will want your son to know what he would be doing as a lawyer.  Many people go to law school thinking they will be in court all the time.  Many lawyers never go to court.  DH is in patent law and will probably never see a court room.  He has worked for big law in big city and saw a large percentage of lawyers unhappy and disliked what they were doing.

[madteaparty]

Keep your GPA up. Major in whatever will keep your GPA up. Find a way to ace the LSAT. (At the very least take a prep class.). Your GPA and your LSAT basically determine what schools accept you. At the top it is very lockstep. Definitely avoid undergrad debt. Law schools have jacked up tuition in the last decade. Finally, make sure you want to be a lawyer. I absolutely loved law school. Loved it. But you don't want to take on the cost just because you don't know what else to do after graduation.

So I self-prepped for the LSAT and got into a top 10, coming from a crappy undergrad. My coworker at the time, ivy undergrad, took a national company prep test class and her LSAT increased by...one point.

Op, just like the SAT, whether you take a prep course or not should depend on what one scores cold. If you are scoring high-ish, better to self prep IME.

[wapiti]

Self-prep here too, very high score.  Never occurred to me that there were classes.  I showed up to the test without a pencil, nearly late... some random people lent me pencils.

[momacacia]

If he has an interest in a particular area of law, he might want to consider an undergrad that feeds into that, as well as the MBA. The MBA tells me he might be interested in business. Also, if her ends up with his own practice, he will be a business owner, so some basic business or marketing classes May not be a bad idea.