# Math vent - not sure whether to be proud or mad at myself

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Interesting new (for me) situation today and I'm not sure whether I should be proud that I was able to control myself and not say something or mad at myself for giving into "chain of command" and not saying something.  What do my fellow boardies think?

Situation:

I'm in an Alg 1 class supervising a student teacher, BUT the student teacher's college supervisor is there too observing his class.  I know this supervisor from before.  I've only seen this student teacher twice.  He just started in Jan.

The student teacher is teaching how to create a quadratic formula from two points, the vertex and the origin.  The vertex is (4,3).

y= a(x-h)^2 + 3    No issues.

y= -a(x-4)^2 + 3   Huge red flag.  He tells the students to put the - in the equation because the parabola opens down.  Therefore, a has to be negative, so put it in there.

0 = -a(0-4)^2 + 3  Allowing for the mistake above, ok...

0= -a(0-16) + 3  WTH????

0= 16a +3  He explains that - * - = +

a = -3/16  Correct answer BUT the WRONG ALGEBRA to get there.

I nudge the supervisor and mention "he did the math wrong."  Supervisor looks at me and politely nods.  Nothing more.

Student teacher wanders around kids as they are working and continues to explain how to do these types of problems incorrectly.

I ask supervisor if he's a math person.  "No. Science," he says.  I already know this - the science is Bio.  I repeat that he's doing the math wrong and now going around answering individual questions incorrectly too.  Supervisor starts to get pen and paper.

Student teacher does a second problem in front of the whole class - same mistakes.

Supervisor shows me the example and we go over the two mistakes together.  Supervisor tells me he's going to wait until the ST is finished answering questions and then call him over.   :glare:   All the answered questions are incorrect.  :cursing:

ST comes over, the mistake is corrected briefly and quietly, and he's told to "clean it up."

Two more examples are shown, correctly this time, but without any pointed corrections AND a few students are asking, "shouldn't you make that a -a?" with those questions going unanswered or with the brief, "a turns up negative at the end, see?"

Class ends without the student teacher ever making a point of correcting himself or what the students have written down from before.

Supervisor wants to talk with ST, so I leave.

If the supervisor hadn't been there, I'd have corrected the ST right away and none of the incorrect instruction (aside from the very beginning) would have happened.  I didn't feel I could do this with the supervisor there, and I'm pissed that it got as far as it did and wasn't corrected.  There are some VERY good students in this class.

I played by the "rules" and didn't challenge the chain of command, but the students now think (x-4)^2 = x^2 - 16 and it NEVER does!!!  It's a common enough mistake for kids to make without being taught that in Alg 1.

He might correct it tomorrow - or he might not.  Neither the supervisor nor I will be there to see.  (sigh)

Did I do right playing by the rules (something incredibly difficult for me to do) or should I have been myself and spoken up "ruining" the observation session?

Hubby and I went to McD's after school so I could console myself with a Shamrock shake and comfort food.  That's not a good solution either, I know, but my willpower was shot putting that much effort into controlling myself in that class.  Comfort food and lack of needing to cook was too strong to overcome.

Nevermind that there's a student teacher out there who is making basic Alg mistakes in the first place.  Hopefully that was just stress.   :glare:

One can NOT just decide to add a random negative sign in any formula.  One must do parentheses before exponents...

Knowing a should be negative if a parabola opens down is a good mental check, but that's checked at the end...

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Is there any way for you to electronically get a message to the kids this evening, challenging them to see if they can troubleshoot the first two problems on their own?

Are you allowed to tell the student teacher that there was a mistake and the kids should be re-taught so they understand going forward?

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Arrgh. I feel your pain. It is an extremely difficult situation because correcting the student teacher in front of the kids would completely undermine the ST's authority and render the subsequent lesson pointless. OTOH, it is absolutely not acceptable for a ST to teach the kids wrong stuff. (Alas, why am I not surprised... I am fairly sure there are seasoned math teachers out there who do the same nonsense)

You were between a rock and a hard place and there was no good solution - you had to choose between two bad ones.I

would, however, bring that up with your math department chair or whoever has authority at the school, so that this gets corrected for the sake of the kids.

Edited by regentrude
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The issue is that you are a substitute teacher in that class, right?  I would have written a detailed note to the regular paid teacher for that class explaining everything.  That regular teacher is ultimately responsible for the math education of the class and should correct the information tomorrow.

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Is there any way for you to electronically get a message to the kids this evening, challenging them to see if they can troubleshoot the first two problems on their own?

Are you allowed to tell the student teacher that there was a mistake and the kids should be re-taught so they understand going forward?

No.  This isn't my class.  I was covering for their regular teacher who was at a doctor's appt.  I'm not likely to see them again for quite some time.

I'm also not sure the ST likes me much anymore.  I'm pretty sure he'll know who clued in the supervisor and it can't be good to mess up on math like this while getting evaluated.  He'll think negative thoughts about me by association if nothing else.  If a math person hadn't been called to cover, no one would have ever known what was wrong - a scary thought with foundational Alg.

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I would, however, bring that up with your math department chair or whoever has authority at the school, so that this gets corrected for the sake of the kids.

I vented to my friend who used to be head of the math dept, but she gave it up when the "calculator" crew won out in the math wars.  The current head is a calculator man - as is the current teacher of this class.

The issue is that you are a substitute teacher in that class, right?  I would have written a detailed note to the regular paid teacher for that class explaining everything.  That regular teacher is ultimately responsible for the math education of the class and should correct the information tomorrow.

The regular teacher of this class likely didn't even show the algebra way to figure out a.  Chances are, he just showed the earlier class the shortcut of y/x^2 and make that negative due to the parabola opening down.

I applaud the ST for trying to teach the algebra behind it - esp considering this is an Alg 1 class.

The calculator crew of teachers at our class prefer teaching shortcuts.  I'm in the camp that disagrees with them, but we're in the minority unfortunately.

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BTDT... next time just nudge the smart kid asleep in the back of the class and let him be the jerk.

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LOL I love the idea of letting the smart kid correct the teacher!  :)

I don't think you did the wrong thing.  It's a bummer the way it happened.  Hopefully the classroom teacher fixes it.  On the other hand, if it isn't supposed to be taught yet anyway, the kids will probably forget it and re-learn it the right way later.  :)

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Oh my.  Scary.  Just, scary.

I think Jean has the right answer:  write a note to the classroom regular teacher and let him/her know what happened.  I don't see that there's much more you can do.  Unfortunately.

I agree that what's happening with math education with some teachers is scary.

I honestly don't think the regular teacher will care.  It'll give him another reason to support short cuts over Alg (it's too easy to make mistakes with Alg) - not something I want to do.

Way too many students in our school end up in College Alg with super poor Alg skills already.  I blame a ton of it (all of it?) on not learning Alg concepts.  Fortunately, our College Alg teacher is one who insists on students using algebra to solve problems.  Oodles of students have commented that they learned a ton in her class.  One can see why.

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BTDT... next time just nudge the smart kid asleep in the back of the class and let him be the jerk.

The smart kids were the ones who were questioning him - esp about the (0-4)^2 turning into (0-16), but he was correcting them and they were believing him.  After all, his way (including adding the - into the equation at the beginning - just because the parabola opened down) worked out to give them the correct answer...

On the other hand, if it isn't supposed to be taught yet anyway, the kids will probably forget it and re-learn it the right way later.  :)

This was the correct lesson for the day.

I've found when kids learn things incorrectly first, the primacy effect ends up taking hold and they'll often remember that way (the wrong way) even after they learn to correct it.  They may remember there are two different options, but will default to the wrong one given a choice - esp if they don't get the concepts behind what they are doing.

This is why it bothered me so much.  These are very important Alg 1 concepts to understand.  Not so much the quadratic in general, but knowing how parentheses and exponents work and that one can't just decide to change an equation "just because."

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Dont worry about. The highly capable kids will get it from their text or their prep book, while the NHS tutors will help out anyone else.

I wish, but if this were true, we wouldn't see so many miss these types of questions on the Keystone tests.  They'd also have it figured out by College Alg.

Some will figure it out, but it's tougher when you're taught incorrectly.

I mentioned speaking to the former head of the dept afterward.  (She's one of my better friends.)

She related a problem she had to correct in her class earlier this year.  Kids were supposed to round a question to money - something like:

138.434567

They'd been taught to round by taking the end #, in this case the 7.  Use that to change the 6 preceeding it to a 7.  Use that 7 to change the 5 preceeding it to a 6.  Use that 6 to change the 4 to a 5.  Use that 5 to change the 3 before it to a 4.  Final answer?  \$138.44

The correct rounding answer is \$138.43 since the 4 is not high enough to change the 3...

All kids from a certain teacher had been taught that way.  Now they were wondering why they needed to learn a new way.  When are they to use which?

That news contributed to my stressful mental end of the day.

That teacher was just filling in for one year at our school filling in for a teacher who took a year off with her pregnancy/baby, but she's probably teaching elsewhere now.

How are these teachers graduating from college and getting into teaching?

I seriously hope this ST was just stressed and making a basic mistake... he did catch on quickly when his mistake was pointed out at least.

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That teacher was just filling in for one year at our school filling in for a teacher who took a year off with her pregnancy/baby, but she's probably teaching elsewhere now.

How are these teachers graduating from college and getting into teaching?

Don't know but my oldest 1st grade teacher says she is not confident teaching 1st grade math which is why she end up swapping with another 1st grade teacher. She teach the other teacher's LA class in return for that teacher teaching her class math.

His K teacher majored in Econs, 1st grade teacher in Language studies, 2nd-4th grade teachers majored in science.

When California had the education budget crunch a few years ago, teachers with no math or science teaching subject credentials were teaching high school math and science.

BTDT... next time just nudge the smart kid asleep in the back of the class and let him be the jerk.

Some smart kids would rather fly under the radar then be a walking target. Some teachers do not like smart kids :(

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Having been the CT for a number of student teachers, here is how I would have handled that situation.

"Oh kids, didn't you see Mr. Smith's mistake? It's a subtle one; he's trying to see if you caught it." I have never had a ST supervisor get upset for me taking over the math. I don't take over the classroom management part unless I think it will get dangerous. But the math? I don't let anyone teach my students the wrong thing. But phrasing it as though he was trying to see if they caught the mistake allows him to maintain control.

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Aaaaaaack! Say it isn't so!

*sticking my fingers in my ears* lalalalala... I can't hear you!

Like I said, I came home, found hubby had just returned from his field work as an engineer and headed out for comfort food.  It just so happens that McD's has Shamrock Shakes this season.  While we were there for the shakes we decided we might as well eat there.

There's something about comfort foods and not having to cook after an end to a work day like that (sigh).

FWIW, I have never heard of anyone teaching (or doing) rounding like that.  I have no idea where that teacher learned it.  My friend who related the story at first thought just one student had learned it incorrectly... until there were nine in her class who did it that way... and all nine said they had learned it from the same teacher.  That's when her current lesson paused while she taught rounding... and tried her best to avoid telling them they'd been taught incorrectly.

There were far more than nine who had this teacher last year.  Roughly half of the freshman class would have had her.

Having been the CT for a number of student teachers, here is how I would have handled that situation.

"Oh kids, didn't you see Mr. Smith's mistake? It's a subtle one; he's trying to see if you caught it." I have never had a ST supervisor get upset for me taking over the math. I don't take over the classroom management part unless I think it will get dangerous. But the math? I don't let anyone teach my students the wrong thing. But phrasing it as though he was trying to see if they caught the mistake allows him to maintain control.

That's an interesting way to handle it.  I'll have to keep it in mind if there's a next time.  Thanks for sharing!

I f you are lucky, the ST will have a conscience and come back with a handout clearly explaining the procedure.

I wish.  I have thought about trying to see him privately at some point, but any time I've seen him previously he's always been with the regular teacher and I'm not sure how that would go considering our differences.

This ST has many decent potential qualities about him.  He's already taken one suggestion I gave him at an earlier date and incorporated it into his class, so he is open to suggestions in general.  But if I were to talk with him, I'd really want it to be private rather than with others joining in, esp if those others diss teaching alg.

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:grouphug: Creekland.

No advice for you.  But, I've been on the other side.  My student teaching days did not go well.

Hopefully the student teacher will have a better day tomorrow.

And as for colleges:  I was an English Ed major.  I had the same English classes that all English majors had.  I had the same education classes that all secondary education majors had.  IIRC, I had ONE class that actually was about teaching English. :svengo:

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:grouphug: Creekland.

No advice for you.  But, I've been on the other side.  My student teaching days did not go well.

Hopefully the student teacher will have a better day tomorrow.

And as for colleges:  I was an English Ed major.  I had the same English classes that all English majors had.  I had the same education classes that all secondary education majors had.  IIRC, I had ONE class that actually was about teaching English. :svengo:

This guy has some really positive points about classroom management.  There's more he needs to learn, but that's what ST is partially about.

It's the math - the part he should be solid in based upon his math classes.

Then he needs to learn he can return to something and point out previous errors when he's taught them incorrectly - esp the same day.

I'm sure he was flustered with how to handle that looking back in hindsight.  It probably isn't taught.  And then he was being evaluated by his supervisor, so there's added stress.  Hopefully the two of them came up with something to do to fix it with the kids.

However, I still think it all would have gone better if he hadn't been allowed to get in as deep as he did teaching it incorrectly.  I wish the supervisor had called him over to mention it as soon as I told him about it or I wish I'd been quick enough to come up with Caroline's solution and asked an innocent question even if it raised a few eyebrows.

Or maybe I should have just spoken up directly and made it look like a careless error when he did his (0-16) part.  I'll admit that part took me off guard coming from the teacher.  Inserting the - did too, but at the time I just thought that he wasn't being clear about it being a mental check at the end.  It only all made "sense" when he "explained" what he was doing.  At that point, internally I was going  :huh:  :ohmy:  :svengo: .  Then I expected too much from the supervisor after I mentioned it, but he hadn't really caught the mistake until I continued to prod him about it.

At this point, I'll just have to hope the two of them came to an understanding in their meeting and the ST will feel obligated to at least reteach it tomorrow.

In the future if it ever happens, I'll have some methods stockpiled in my brain to handle it on the spot.

And if I catch any of those kids in other classes or outside of them... I just might ask how to do those types of problems or what happened in class the next day - blaming stress on his part if that comes up.

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I coach a MathCounts team and I make algebra mistakes all. the. time.  I think the kids enjoy pointing out my algebra errors.  Or I'll end up with the wrong answer, and we're all staring at the white board trying figure out what I did wrong.  It's kinda fun, really.

But I also have been stressed out at the board.  I had a gal attend a MathCounts meeting for the first time, and her dad came to observe, and he himself got to nationals in MathCounts, so I really felt like I needed to impress him.  So I was doing fine until I got to triangle inequality.  I just could not articulate it.  a+b<c??  a+b>c??  a-b><???  I just blanked, and I could feel myself getting hotter and then sweating.  Really sweating.  He didn't do or say anything--and I've been coaching his dd for 2 years now--but in retrospect if he had spoken up, I would have been so relieved, not embarrassed.

I think a good teacher should be willing to admit they are fallible, and willing to accept help when needed, and above all wants to make sure his students get the right info.  I think you should have spoken up, but I don't think I personally would have done anything in your shoes, because...I don't want to make waves?

If you ever see me make a math error, let me know, or better yet, ask the students to tell me what I did wrong.

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Just throwing in my 2 cents here. (And easy for me to say because I'm just sitting here in my quiet living room and not in the actual situation...which I feel for you!!)

The bottom line is that the students need to learn and that takes precedence over a student teacher's ego and manners of others not interrupting. It's great that a student teacher gets the real opportunity to practice the craft of teaching but not at the expense of the students. If I was the student, I'd be pretty upset that the other teachers in the room did not speak up and if I knew about it, I would complain that I wouldn't want any student teachers teaching me if there wasn't someone else overseeing and ready to step in if needed (especially if I was paying for the class).

I think the focus here now is to take it as a learning experience and figure out what to do going forward...with the students' best interests at heart:

(1) addressing and needing to establish a procedure for any future incidences like this with the school or student teacher or evaluator, whomever that needs to be, and

(2) coming up with the right words/approach to interrupt when needed (so you're prepared).

Stuff happens. We're not perfect. This can't be the first time this has happened at this school, in your area, in the country and in the world. What matters is what we do next.  So don't worry about what happened in this one situation; that pales in comparison to the good that will come from working on making it better for yourself and others in the future.

:-)

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As it turns out, the regular teacher is out for the whole day tomorrow - getting minor surgery due to his doctor's appt yesterday.  If they don't change my assignment, I'll be in for him for the whole day supervising this ST instead of just covering one class with him.  It will give me a chance to ask about it all - tactfully.  I don't care to discourage him - just clear it up.

Like Daijobu, I've made mistakes in my past too - or simply gone blank - but we always make it right.  At that point I relate what a professor at college told my class:

"Idiot errors!  We all make them.  Do you know why I call them Idiot Errors?  Because any idiot from students to college professors can make them and you feel like an idiot when you're that person!"

In general though, he was talking about dropping things like negatives or cubing something incorrectly when doing mental math or similar, but still...

It's possible the office could change my assignment.  Supervising a ST is generally mindless "nothingness" that is only done because our state requires it. (It really doesn't make logical sense.  A sub can have no experience, but be trusted with a class of teens without help, but a ST who has been with the class for a period of time is not trusted alone with them.  Uh, why?)

If a regular science/math teacher calls out and the option is there to actually teach, they know that's my preference and no other sub we have can adequately do that.  They are often doing the job for the money, so rarely mind switching to something easy.

GThomas, I'm solidly in your camp at this point.  Next time I will break in and say something quickly and tactfully just as I would have if the supervisor hadn't been there.  It's better to do that than trust that the supervisor will take care of it in a timely manner.  I wasn't quick thinking quickly enough yesterday.  My brain definitely wanted to do what was right (in a nice helpful manner, not combative or accusational)!  My "social training" stopped it.  It shouldn't have.

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Again, don't worry anymore about it, you know what you're going to do going forward. I would have done the exact same thing in your situation. And I would have stressed about it later for days. I'm being nicer to you than I would to myself. ;-)

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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Again, don't worry anymore about it, you know what you're going to do going forward. I would have done the exact same thing in your situation. And I would have stressed about it later for days. I'm being nicer to you than I would to myself. ;-)

Oh, I can't stop worrying about things like this.  I know the kids too well!  And technically, it happened under my watch.

I'll feel much better when I know it's fixed and I'll fix it myself tomorrow if that's what I need to do.  My first choice will be to have the ST do it though - if he hasn't already.  I'll ask one of the kids to find out.  Even if I end up being switched to a real assignment over this shadowing one, I'll ask one of the kids to see what happened in that class today.

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I didn't read all the responses, but DD15 has a ST in her Spanish 3 class who has made a few mistakes while teaching. DD pays very close attention and really knows her stuff, so she raises her hand and politely says, "Shouldn't it be blah blah blah?" He generally thanks her, corrects his mistake and then continues. I'm sure the classroom teacher, who has been at the back of the class so far, is grateful that a student notices/corrects so she doesn't have to! DD is rather annoyed, though.

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I didn't read all the responses, but DD15 has a ST in her Spanish 3 class who has made a few mistakes while teaching. DD pays very close attention and really knows her stuff, so she raises her hand and politely says, "Shouldn't it be blah blah blah?" He generally thanks her, corrects his mistake and then continues. I'm sure the classroom teacher, who has been at the back of the class so far, is grateful that a student notices/corrects so she doesn't have to! DD is rather annoyed, though.

Glad that ST is open to correction from students.  In this case, students were questioning his math, but he was firm in his way of doing it and they switched over to believing him - after all - he got the correct answer (by making two mistakes - they didn't question his other one).

All would have been fine if one of them had questioned him and he realized his mistake and fixed it.  Any of us can do that in a duh moment.

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Just adding an update...  All is fine now.  Yes, he retaught the material yesterday and explained his mistake.  Yes, he felt like an idiot, but we all do when those things happen.  Yes, the supervisor let him know it's not unheard of to make mistakes - esp under pressure - but what has to happen is one corrects their mistakes.  It can actually be helpful to the students if explained properly as it can help them not feel like they're dumb if they make mistakes, but also shows that they need to correct their mistakes.

I'm satisfied.  ;)  And I still think he'll make a good teacher once he gets a little more teaching experience.

Now, of course, it's only 7:40 in the morning, a mere 10 minutes into our school day, and I have until 2:30 with nothing but supervision (and lunch) to do.  (sigh)

I remind myself it was worth it for the closure and to help build up his confidence some.

And the \$\$ I earn will pay for a meal out with our boys on our upcoming trip, though that would have also happened if I'd actually been teaching myself.

There had better be some interesting Hive topics today!

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It's actually probably good that I am in watching today.  I haven't seen any more math issues at this point, but I've written down a couple of teaching pointers to help improve his tactics and he IS open to suggestions, so the classes ought to benefit.   :coolgleamA:

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Creekland, Thank you so much for updating!!

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Creekland, Thank you so much for updating!!

This is actually an interesting position to be in.  I don't often get opportunities to train young teachers.  ST is already using my suggestions, so he's at least a smart lad situationally!

If he were really "mine" I'd have other suggestions to make too, but he's not.  He has to work with the teacher he's assigned to, so I need to keep that in mind.

Nonetheless... we might have a discussion about different styles later today if I get that opportunity.  He has to keep with the style of his mentor I suspect, but once he's on his own, he might want to branch out more.

We have discussed that a little already the first day I met him.  I like his visions for the classroom.  He just needs to learn some nuts and bolts and practice should help.

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Yay! Well done, Creekland!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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Yay! Well done, Creekland

We just had a great chat during our prep period and he's now using many of the things I mentioned (including students more and getting them to interact more) in the current class.  It's a big improvement from the earlier class, and I know he'll keep it up.

We've been able to discuss other things too - like problems some students have at home that affect their ability in class - and ideas for him to try to handle academics with those side issues.

I also explained our two groups of teachers - the calculator group vs the math group.  He's a member of the math group!!!

I like this guy.  I'm glad we had the chance to have these times together.  It's just as rewarding guiding a future teacher as it is teaching the future of our country.

The one little blip will be just that and I know how to deal with those in the future if I encounter something like it again.

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I like this guy.  I'm glad we had the chance to have these times together.  It's just as rewarding guiding a future teacher as it is teaching the future of our country.

The one little blip will be just that and I know how to deal with those in the future if I encounter something like it again.

Awww, this is such a great story! I don't know how to do the clapping emoticon but (clap, clap, clap)! Creekland you're my hero this week!

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Glad it all turned out okay, Creekland!

Things like this do not give me confidence in the public school system and give me hope that I will do okay by my kids.

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Things like this do not give me confidence in the public school system and give me hope that I will do okay by my kids.

So much depends upon the student, teachers, family, and district.  It's kind of scary to think about it, but the same student in Situation A could fare totally differently in Situation B.

I guess that's true about homeschooling too though.

I was talking with one young lad after school today - encouraging him since he looked down.  Background:  Mom is hooked on drugs.  Dad died in the military.  Mom gets money for the lad, but won't spend it on him.  Current:  He needs new clothes.  She told him they'd go get some, but then it didn't happen and she's out of money again.  He has to decide whether to pursue it with the court system.

No young lad should have such weighty things to contemplate while also trying to learn Alg II.  He IS doing well.  He's not following her path on drugs.  He tries in school and is always pleasant to deal with (even when he's down in the dumps).  He knows he can have a future.  He just needs to get there - and know others care.

Since he's in the class this thread has been about, I've shared some of his background with ST, and we discussed how those of us in teaching positions do far more than just "teach math."  This ST has the opportunity to be a mentor and friend as well as a math teacher.  I really believe he'll do well - both of them - given opportunities.

In this lad's case, homeschooling would be a disaster.  We need public schools and we need decent teachers in them.  I also see the value in need-based aid for college, etc.

So many talk against these things (NOT meaning you - just hypothetically from some threads that come on here), but they only need to see what I see on a regular basis to see the real world.

But yes... there's a reason I homeschooled my older two and wish youngest had kept with it!  A tailored education is ideal IME.

Then there's the reason I love working in my public high school.  We get to have an influence on so many young lives.  I want that influence to be a good one!

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