Yet another Singapore Math / MM question...

[dessertbloom]

If you use Singapore Math US, do you also use Challenging Word Problems and/or Intensive Practice? Are they essential to the program or for supplementing when needed? We did Singapore US Kindergarten A and B and then moved on to Math Mammoth 1A. I really like how simple MM is to use, and the price. I bought the Pdf, so one time purchase, resuable for all the kids, and no shipping as we live overseas. But there is so much on a page that dd gets bogged down with it. She understands the concepts, but balks at how many problems are on a page, even if I don't make her do so many. I feel like it's a lot of review after SM KA & KB, but I don't feel confident enough in dd's abilities to skip too much, either. I'm considering switching to SM for the school year and using MM to supplement and for summer review. SM just seems complicated to me with so many pieces (IG, Textbook, Workbook, IP, CWP) We're using MFW , so for other MFW users...do you use the MFW Daily Lesson Plans or the Home Instructor's Guide (as sold by Rainbow Resources or Amazon)? The MFW's package is more attractive with just the text, wb and simplified IG. I'd love to hear the advice of those of you who have similar experiences... Thanks in advance!

[sunshineslp]

I use mfw and also have mm and sm:)

 

So here's my take: my kids also balked at the visual layout of mm. It was tears every day. So we moved back to sm. mm IS much easier to teach but I've read it's better for older kids who are ok with the layout. For instance. I just brought mm out again and now my oldest son (2nd grade) likes it more. I love the layout of sm too though. So appealing and more fun. As far as what you need, I only use tb, wb and hig. I haven't seen mfw IG so I can't compare. You don't need ip or cwp. Those are optional.

 

 

Homeschooling mama of 4... Preschool 3, preschool 4, 1st, and 2nd:)

[FO4UR]

If you like Singapore but want to simplify, try using the TB and IP.  

 

The wb is practice of the tb.  If they don't need that much review, you don't need the wb.

 

CWP is awesome, but there are enough word problems in the IP that I feel comfy just using the IP.

 

The TB and IP are more than enough for most kids.

[dessertbloom]

Thanks, Ladies, this is really helpful! I was thinking the same thing about MM being more doable for older kids. In the early years, do you use write in the SM textbook or use it as a non-consumable? 

[Sk8ermaiden]

We only use IP over the summer as review to keep her up to date and we don't do CWP at all. We don't write in our textbooks because we haven't really needed to. We do that part verbally, plus I pass them down to a friend.

[sunshineslp]

I only write in workbooks

 

 

Homeschooling mama of 4... Preschool 3, preschool 4, 1st, and 2nd:)

[forty-two]

 In the early years, do you use write in the SM textbook or use it as a non-consumable? 

 

I use the textbook as a non-consumable.  We did it all mentally through 2B (minus a few of the nastier subtraction problems in 2B, which she worked out on paper - anything I wasn't up to doing in my head myself, I let her do on paper ;)), and in 3A she's increasingly doing more of the work on a separate sheet of paper.

 

 

WRT which components of SM to use, I used to use just the TB and IP, but between the IP having less white space, smaller type, and more problems per page than the WB (which really affected dd9), and dd9 needing more work on calculating, I started using the WB in 2A, and I'm glad I did.  Also, the WB is broken up into several lessons per chapter that are assigned at various points in the textbook, while the IP is only divided into chapters - when using just the TB and IP, it works best to do the whole chapter in the TB and then do the whole chapter in IP.  It only works if your dc doesn't need more practice on each part of the chapter before moving on (which worked for my dd until it didn't, and we parked on addition-with-regrouping for a month, with me making up problem after problem) - that's when I finally went with the WB - *much* more practice for each part than the IP. 

 

The IP had 9 addition-without-regrouping problems, 9 subtraction-without-regrouping problems, 9 addition-with-regrouping problems and 9 subtraction-with-regrouping problems for practice - four pages total - that's *it* - then they went straight into expecting you to use those skills to do other things.  While the workbook has five *pages* of problems on the meaning of addition/subtraction, five pages of addition-without-regrouping, five pages of subtraction-without-regrouping, two introductory pages of addition-with-regrouping, nine pages of addition-with-regrouping, ten pages of subtraction-with-regrouping, and two pages of mixed practice.  (Those wb pages include several pages of word problems.)  And the WB has more white space and larger type, plus cute games to make the calculation practice more fun - my dd really likes them.

 

But, otoh, because the IP only spent four pages on what the WB spent a whole chapter on, the rest of the IP chapter (33 problems,  7 word problems, 4 challenging word problem) extends the skill in ways that the WB doesn't.  It's why I do both (even though the more crowded pages are hard on dd9 and require me to sit with her to keep her working productively).

 

 

I don't schedule out the lessons - I just open to where we left off and work until we hit a problem or hit enough worksheet assignments to make for a full day's WB work.  I aim for about four WB pages a day, about two worksheets' worth; we do less if the work is hard, more if the work is easy - I give her what I think will take ~30 min to do.  I run the IP (and CWP) separately, working a semester behind (so IP 2B while working the 3A TB/WB), and doing whatever gets done in 30 min of work in the book.  We have two math sessions each day, one in the TB/WB and one in IP/CWP.

Edited February 12, 2016 by forty-two

[dessertbloom]

Thanks, forty-two, that was very helpful into!

[Gil]

Notice: I'm a MM fan and I like to believe that on some basic level, the answer to 99.99% of all K-6 math struggles is: "Use Math Mammoth."

 

However, I'm a little confused. You say that you would switch from MM because the format is unworkable for you, so why would you'd use MM as a supplement/review when your complaint with the program is that the format is unworkable for you is a little confusing to me. If the format doesn't work for you, don't try and force yourself to use it just 'cause. You bought something that isn't a great fit, its sucky but if the format is really a barrier for you or your daughter, let it go.

 

Now, I'm not sure how much time you have on your hands, have you tried to experiment with your printer settings and see if you can't print an MM page on 2 pages so that there is more space, or print it on 1.5x zoom or whatever.

 

Or you could convince the kid that she has no other choice "Its okay to be a little intimidated. This is what 1st grade math is like. This math book is for big kids like you. Don't worry, you can do it! Remember, this isn't just about the math. This is about helping you learn to focus on one thing at a time and following directions--like remembering to ONLY do the problems that I marked for you with my colorful pen. The other problems are there so that we can go back and review or for when you need more practice."

 

Get some sticky post it notes and cover up the sections that she doesn't have to do. Then sit and help her focus and refocus on which problems she does have to do.

 

I always that that MM1 was really straightforward and thorough, but. If you have the time then you could do this:

1/2 of the problems with counters/manipulatives to reinforce the concept (YOU write the answer)

1/4 of the problems orally (YOU write the answer)

1/4 of the problems written (SHE writes the answers)

 

 

Or switch to Singapore PM, it's an equally solid and thorugh series. But if you need to do additional math problems--print some off line that are in a format that works for you.

[dessertbloom]

Wow, Gil, you may just have saved MM for us, thanks!  

 

Notice: I'm a MM fan and I like to believe that on some basic level, the answer to 99.99% of all K-6 math struggles is: "Use Math Mammoth."

 

Me, too, I really don't want to let it go too easily. I think this may just be a maturity issue that will be resolved with time and training.

 

However, I'm a little confused. You say that you would switch from MM because the format is unworkable for you, so why would you'd use MM as a supplement/review when your complaint with the program is that the format is unworkable for you is a little confusing to me. If the format doesn't work for you, don't try and force yourself to use it just 'cause. You bought something that isn't a great fit, its sucky but if the format is really a barrier for you or your daughter, let it go.

 

I was thinking that if we use SM during the coming academic year, by summer 2017, she would be ready to see more on a page and could use MM as review over the summer. I have MM 1A through whatever is the latest level published.  But you're right.

 

Now, I'm not sure how much time you have on your hands, have you tried to experiment with your printer settings and see if you can't print an MM page on 2 pages so that there is more space, or print it on 1.5x zoom or whatever.

 

I may try this. I was also thinking about cutting up the pages and letting her do one section at a time and then paste it into a spiral notebook. She loves notebooks. Maybe this is being too accommodating, but she'd probably go for it.  

 

Or you could convince the kid that she has no other choice "Its okay to be a little intimidated. This is what 1st grade math is like. This math book is for big kids like you. Don't worry, you can do it! Remember, this isn't just about the math. This is about helping you learn to focus on one thing at a time and following directions--like remembering to ONLY do the problems that I marked for you with my colorful pen. The other problems are there so that we can go back and review or for when you need more practice."

 

I agree with this, but I also don't want to kill all her love of math. It used to be her favorite subject, now it causes tears. I'm also going to get her eyes checked. Phonics is giving me a suspicion that she doesn't see well us close. 

 

Get some sticky post it notes and cover up the sections that she doesn't have to do. Then sit and help her focus and refocus on which problems she does have to do.

 

I LOVE this idea!  Only, I think I'll adapt it. I'll cover the problems she will have to do and then she can uncover them and "collect" the sticky notes. If she gets it right, she keeps it. If she gets it wrong, I keep it and cover another problem for her to do. She'll eat this up!  Sometimes I circle the problems she has to do and she gets to use her highlighter to highlight the ones she does correctly.  

 

I always that that MM1 was really straightforward and thorough, but. If you have the time then you could do this:

1/2 of the problems with counters/manipulatives to reinforce the concept (YOU write the answer)

1/4 of the problems orally (YOU write the answer)

1/4 of the problems written (SHE writes the answers)

 

This is really reassuring. We were already doing some orally and some in game format, but I was a little uneasy as to how much to let her do like that.  I know she understands a lot of the concepts, like number bonds, because she does them instantly when we play math games.  This, again, maybe an issue with her vision. Going to the eye doctor this week. 

 

Or switch to Singapore PM, it's an equally solid and thorugh series. But if you need to do additional math problems--print some off line that are in a format that works for you.

 

Thanks again. We're going to keep working on MM and try some of these ideas. 

Edited February 13, 2016 by dessertbloom

[Syllieann]

Since you are now thinking about sticking with mm I will offer a few ideas for how I make it work for my DD. At the beginning of the year the page was way too cluttered and overwhelming for her. Now that we are about 2/3 through the year she works straight out of the workbook. I managed the transition by doing some of the things Gil mentioned. I also leaned heavily on manipulatives at first. For DD it is not so much a manipulative vs paper thing as a color vs black and white, but the manipulatives also have color. Here are some other things we did.

 

Use color coded arrow cards with a base ten set. (Most heavily used in place value chapter)

Use a geared clock with picture cards that show the clock face and can be matched to cards that show the time digitally

For number bonds we used a laminated parts to whole circle with c-rods

Use cards that show +, -, = with number cards and/or c-rods to build equations

I used a highlighter or colored pencils to mark places she needed to write an answer.

I keep a number line handy for easy adding/subtracting AND so she can look at the numbers before writing them down to help prevent reversals (she still has issues with the 2)

 

It probably took me about 5-10 minutes to prep all this each day, but I think it is worth it because switching to mif or Singapore would be tons more time and money.

Edited February 13, 2016 by Syllieann

[dessertbloom]

Thanks, Syllieann!  I'll definitely try these ideas. Let me ask one more question for you and Gil, what did you use before MM 1A (for kindergarten)?

[Syllieann]

Thanks, Syllieann! I'll definitely try these ideas. Let me ask one more question for you and Gil, what did you use before MM 1A (for kindergarten)?

DD used right start a , first edition.

DS used miquon orange, parts of red, and most of mep 1a.

[wendyroo]

Another trick I have used with Math Mammoth is cutting the pages.  I print a couple chapters at a time, Proclick them and mark the parts I will review with DS and problems he needs to do.  If we hit a particularly dense page that is intimidating DS then after reviewing the lesson together I will just make a vertical cut up the page separating off the right hand most column of each of the types of problems (these are often the most challenging of each type).  I give him the slip of paper that is now only ~2" by 11" and has 6-9 problems.  Since many of the pages, especially the really dense ones, are formatted in columns this normally works pretty well...though you do end up cutting off the instructions so you need to direct the child as to what they are supposed to be doing.

 

Wendy

[wendyroo]

Oh, and in case it is of interest, I have my kids do Singapore Essentials before starting Math Mammoth 1.  We find Essentials book A to be preschool level and Essentials B to be a meatier K level book.

 

That leads us right into "Chapter 0" of Math Mammoth 1 which offers a kindergarten review.  Really, Math Mammoth 1 does not assume many prerequisite skills.  This is the introduction to the kindergarten review in MM1:

 

"This chapter is optional and can be used to review the most important concepts of kindergarten math:
- writing the numerals 0 to 9;
- counting up to 20;
- position words, color words, and some shapes (circle, triangle, square)
- simple patterns"

 

Wendy

[carriede]

Thanks, Syllieann! I'll definitely try these ideas. Let me ask one more question for you and Gil, what did you use before MM 1A (for kindergarten)?

I've used Singapore Math Essentials K for my two, then MM (currently 2b and 1a). A lot of the topics in SM K are covered in MM, so I didn't worry about mastery for those workbooks.

 

Here's the K recommendations straight from the author of MM: http://www.mathmammoth.com/complete/kindergarten.php

[Gil]

Note: In my opinion there is no such thing as "too accommodating" at the elementary level. Especially at the K-2 level. I know you have other kids, but ultimately K-2 is time consuming and energy draining to teach well. But remember: either you'll make the time to help them launch successfully at the beginning elementary level or you'll make time to re-mediate them at upper elementary or secondary level. Take your pick. No matter what books you use, there is no royal road to a solid mastery of the 3Rs.

 

Don't be afraid to roll up your sleeves and get in the trenches now. It'll pay off spades in the 3rd-5th grades, when you begin training them to do their work with greater and greater degrees of independence. (I'm going to step off my soap-box now)

 

Thanks, Syllieann!  I'll definitely try these ideas. Let me ask one more question for you and Gil, what did you use before MM 1A (for kindergarten)?

Don't over complicate K math. Its simple--introduce a topic and practice it in whatever way fits your situation. If the kids get it, move on and continue to practice that skill. If they don't get it, do the topic in another way, and another way and another way and do it over and over and over and over again. Once they get it, practice it. Work a little bit every day. At the K level, consistency was our greatest asset. 60-90 minutes of math (lessons, activities and games) each week at 2-5 years old will get you much further then most people would imagine.

 

Honestly I think that MM1 is pretty kindergarten level. Especially 1a. We have an older edition but for us, MM1A was just 3 chapters: Addition w/in 10 | Subtraction w/in 10 | Addition and Subtraction facts.

Where as MM1b has 5 chapters:

Place Value 0-100 | Clock | Shapes and Measuring | Addition and Subtraction with 0-100 | Coins

 

I'm pretty sure that I mixed and matched the sections in MM1A and MM1B pretty liberally. Some chapters do not depend on the others and it helps to break up the monotony if you are applying your addition and subtraction skills to coins and working on measuring a few times a week.

 

Anyway, to answer your question prior to starting MM1A  I had them doing a lot of random math activities that cost me mostly just some time and my attention. I used markers, printer paper and 3x5 cards, I also made liberal use of the little pebbles/rocks that are in the ground around here. (I wasn't printing on the printer paper, I wrote on it with the markers).

 

We counted, sorted and compared piles of rocks. We combined and separated the piles (talked about addition and subtraction) we studied quantities (number bonds) and talked about the commutative property, greater than, less than, and equal to. We bagged groups of 10 and counted rocks "the fast way". We made groups of rocks and took portions (fractions) of the groups and talked about even - odd quantities. Conceptually, most of MM1 was known or familiar to them, but we started with 1A anyway. I have no regrets. Its solid and its systematic.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2016 by Gil