Whatever happened to Tiger Mom's children....(article)

[umsami]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/whatever-happened-to-the-original-tiger-mums-children/

 

Happy for the girls, but geesh....felt for the youngest when,

 

"“I was in the library when my friend called me over to her computer to show me that her upcoming lecture was on the subject of my childhood. They were holding an entire seminar on how my personality had responded to my mother’s parenting style – and the professor had never even met me!â€

[creekland]

Nice article - very well balanced I think.

 

I know I'd have died in their situation (literally), so I appreciate at the end that they mentioned some changes they'd make even if it's not a free-for-all in their expectations as parents.  I'm also glad they mentioned that they've seen students crack under the pressure.  It happens.

 

In general, many kids tend to parent sort of similar to the way they were parented (with some tweaks), so their approving of their upbringing with tweaks seems pretty normal to me.

[SKL]

True, some young people crack under the pressure, but that may be partly because their parents were afraid to let them experience the hard stuff early on.

 

Of course all kids are different, but I think the current trend toward protecting our kids from disappointment and real-life stress is going to be counterproductive in the long run.  As was mentioned in the article, it's better to have a balance of harsh reality and loving support.

[FaithManor]

All I know is I would have cracked crazy under their parenting regime, and I did consider her parenting to sometimes be emotionally and verbally abusive. So I am not a fan of the parents.

 

I especially feel sad for the youngest. I am glad that it was mentioned that students do break under this kind of pressure. Many kids simply cannot handle it.

Edited February 1, 2016 by FaithManor

[creekland]

 I am glad that it was mentioned that students do break under this kind of pressure. Many kids simply cannot handle it.

 

Esp when they've done everything "right" and have the stats, etc, but still get rejected from Harvard/Yale, etc, due to not having such famous parents and not being lucky with the admission lottery.

 

I've seen far more crack from excessive high parenting pressure than not enough parenting pressure (though the latter also has its problems).  A nice medium mix is the best IME.  And with a mix, there's more happiness in growing up from what I've seen.  I think the kids have shown they understand this when they talk about letting their own children follow their own passions rather than having to do the parent's passions.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I guess I'm happy that in the end it basically paid off.

 

I can't imagine spending that kind of time playing the violin though.  Geesh

 

 

[SKL]

I told my kids the other day that I won't get off their back about piano practice until they are 18.  :P  I might be a tiger cub.  :P

[creekland]

I told my kids the other day that I won't get off their back about piano practice until they are 18.  :p  I might be a tiger cub.  :p

 

My parents (both music/band teachers) let me quit piano lessons in first grade when they saw it wasn't "me."  They bought my sister and I ponies when I was 8 when they saw that was "me."

 

To say I'm eternally thankful would be a huge understatement.  It made a huge (positive) difference in my life, both then and now.

[creekland]

I should probably add that my dad, who knew absolutely nothing about horses/ponies when he bought our first two, became a second to none groom for me in later years when I was showing.

 

He installed outside lights so I could work with my horses/ponies in winter both before and after school.

 

He got a truck that could transport them.  He dutifully helped care for them - doing chores if I couldn't and even sometimes when I could.

 

I don't have tons of good memories of my dad, but those are among the best of the best.  I'm really glad he changed to fit me instead of trying to make me change to fit him.

 

He was also happy when I won, sad when I lost (esp unfair losses that sometimes happened), and didn't let me quit when I was down, but those traits are some that should carry over to anything when one is raising kids.  It's part of the support system.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Over all, their upbringing is a pretty typical Asian upbringing.  I'm not really surprised at the results.  I don't think that the results justify the means, though.

[MrsWeasley]

When I read Battle Hymn of a Tiger Mom, I did not find a parenting manual but rather a funny parenting memoir. Especially important, the Tiger Mom eventually relents on violin. When her younger daughter develops an interest in tennis, her mom supports her. When her daughter starts to feel like her mom is taking over tennis, her mom backs off. I don't agree with all her parenting choices, but she comes off as less sure, more responsive in the book than in its media coverage.

[marbel]

My parents (both music/band teachers) let me quit piano lessons in first grade when they saw it wasn't "me."  They bought my sister and I ponies when I was 8 when they saw that was "me."

 

To say I'm eternally thankful would be a huge understatement.  It made a huge (positive) difference in my life, both then and now.

 

Key point there in the bold.

 

We had our son in piano lessons for a while.  We were told it would help with some of his LDs, maybe.  It was pure torture for him.  No regrets on letting him quit. 

 

Wonder what it would have been like if one of those girls had a learning disability, or a chronic illness, or had an intense hatred for one or more of their school subjects to the point of tears and rebellion against it.  (I have dealt with all 3 and plenty of others have dealt with at least one, I know.)  Or if the family hadn't had the funds for all those music lessons, etc.  I have known kids of exceptional parents (highly intelligent/educated, highly motivated, very successful) who cracked under the pressure of living up to their parents' expectations.  It's sad to watch.

This snip from the article stood out to me:

 

 

 

For her older sister, it is a question of degree. “I don’t think what we should take from tiger parenting that every kid needs to become a violin prodigy or get into Harvard,†she says. “But when it comes to smaller issues like, ‘You won’t get every toy you want until your grades improve,’ or ‘You can’t quit the team because you lost two games in a row,’ then I believe tiger parenting does have its place.â€

 

I don't think most people think of those things as "tiger parenting."   To me, that is just typical parenting.  6 hours of violin a day?  Unless the kid loves it and chooses to do that much, I think that's a bit over the top.  

 

[Catherine]

I think that one's response to the Tiger Mom book has a lot to do with both one's own upbringing and with the kids that are around us, outside of our own. That may explain why I had a generally positive response to the book.  I guess I could really see in the book that they were a generally happy family and balanced the work with shared fun and happy times.  I didn't have an unhappy childhood, but I would have really appreciated more support for MY interests, and more support period.  My parents definitely did not see it as their job to be involved beyond the early years, and definitely did not see it as their job to make it possible for my dreams to come true.  

 

By the same token, I see a lot of the "special snowflake" phenomenon where I live.  Parents who go to the ends of the earth to protect their offspring from every stress and challenge.  And whose fears seem much more about whether their child will have a happy and stress-free social life than whether they will be able to function as adults and manage college.  So I am not that surprised about the followup in the article.  I don't see it as abusive to hold high standards for one's children, though I wouldn't take it quite to the level that Amy Chua did.  I have a close friend whose mom was an extreme tiger mother, and they are very close now, though she definitely raises her children differently.  High standards, but no abuse. I still believe that feeling loved and accepted is the most important determinant of adult happiness.  

[SKL]

My parents (both music/band teachers) let me quit piano lessons in first grade when they saw it wasn't "me."  They bought my sister and I ponies when I was 8 when they saw that was "me."

 

To say I'm eternally thankful would be a huge understatement.  It made a huge (positive) difference in my life, both then and now.

 

OK, for the record, both of my kids are pretty good at music (not "great" but able to develop it as a fun pastime).  They don't hate it, though it isn't their #1 favorite thing to do.  And I believe music is like math or physical exercise in terms of its importance to development.  Others may disagree.  :)  Now that they are playing other instruments in the school band, I only ask them to practice piano about an hour a week, mainly to maintain skills.  I would hate for them to lose the skills they have developed.  Playing piano for fun was a huge source of joy for me as a kid.

 

I do not have the means to provide the pony experience your parents provided, and my kids don't have a dad, but I do the best I can.  :)  My kids haven't developed very specific passions yet though.  And I'm not sure they will.  I never did.

 

I just thought it was funny that I had just mentioned the "piano until 18" to my kids and then this article came out.

 

Actually the thing my kids complain about is "having to" travel and go sightseeing.  Poor darlings.  They also crab about getting up on Saturday mornings to go horse riding.  Sigh.  Someday they will have kids and they'll be like, dang, my mom was awesome.  ;)

[Sarah CB]

I guess I'm happy that in the end it basically paid off.

 

I can't imagine spending that kind of time playing the violin though.  Geesh

 

Unless they're heading for a career in violin performance.

 

Otherwise, wouldn't a couple of hours a day have been plenty?  

[SparklyUnicorn]

Unless they're heading for a career in violin performance.

 

Otherwise, wouldn't a couple of hours a day have been plenty?  

 

Exactly.  It's an awesome skill/hobby to have, but geesh I really don't want to do any hobby for 6 hours a day.  Then it would just become a torturous chore.

[Bluegoat]

I think there are some valuble things people can learn from that parenting style - things like kids often need some scaffolding for things like practice, and that telling kids to carry on after failure - and telling them how - is important.  Also that just because a child in a particular moment, or even for a time, doesn't feel like practicing or doing something doesn't mean they actually don't want to do that thing in a more general way.

 

However, I think the extremes she takes it to are just weird.  Six hours of violin practice for a child is really just bizarre, its totally developmentally inappropriate, IMO even for a prodigy, and I'm not sure how that would not be evident to a parent.

[FaithManor]

Also, as a professional pianist I would lime to point out that her children were not prodigies. Not even close. I was not a prodigy, but had far more internal motivation than those girls. Six hours a day of practice was something I chose with no input from my parents. The summer I was determined to put in eight hours every day (wanted to memorize the Sonata Apassionata by Beethoven) my parents forced it to be broken into two hour sections making me take a fifteen minute break between, and a half hour of going outside at lunch just in the hopes I would not be too abnormal. I was thirteen. The only reason famy vacations worked without issues with me was that they let me find colleges and music stores along the route so I could practice for two or three hours daily. I remember being only ten and calling all over Orlando to find somewhere to practice so the family could go to Disney World for three days in peace. Yes, at times I was dropped at a mall music store and left in the hands of the manager or a store music teacher while my parents and brother were on Space Mountain and having fun. I was happier that way.

 

I was no where near a prodigy, but that is closer to how a prodigy behaves. You have to drag them kicking and screaming into having anything that resembles a "normal" set of childhood experiences.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Also, as a professional pianist I would lime to point out that her children were not prodigies. Not even close. I was not a prodigy, but had far more internal motivation than those girls. Six hours a day of practice was something I chose with no input from my parents. The summer I was determined to put in eight hours every day (wanted to memorize the Sonata Apassionata by Beethoven) my parents forced it to be broken into two hour sections making me take a fifteen minute break between, and a half hour of going outside at lunch just in the hopes I would not be too abnormal. I was thirteen. The only reason famy vacations worked without issues with me was that they let me find colleges and music stores along the route so I could practice for two or three hours daily. I remember being only ten and calling all over Orlando to find somewhere to practice so the family could go to Disney World for three days in peace. Yes, at times I was dropped at a mall music store and left in the hands of the manager or a store music teacher while my parents and brother were on Space Mountain and having fun. I was happier that way.

 

I was no where near a prodigy, but that is closer to how a prodigy behaves. You have to drag them kicking and screaming into having anything that resembles a "normal" set of childhood experiences.

 

Yeah I agree.  I think it is ok for parents to push sometimes.  But I'd hope they'd be certain that it was just a matter of the kid needed a push during a difficult time rather than they want their kids to live out their dreams and meet their (extreme) expectations.  KWIM?

 

Both of mine have tried instruments.  They were not into it.  I didn't push it.  One of mine was in choir.  He kept saying how much he loved it.  Next year he didn't want to go back.  I didn't make him, but honestly I wore him down to go back because I think he just needed the encouragement.  The difficulty with it is the practices are early on Saturday morning.  Nothing like being up at the crack of dawn on a frigid winter morning when you aren't used to that.  So I understood that, but I think it's a small annoyance for what he was getting out of it.  As it turned out he was very glad he went back.  Had he been miserable I would have let him quit. 

[HS Mom in NC]

Identifying the extremes is important because it gives a more accurate view of where the center actually is.  What many people consider "moderate" parenting is actually much closer to the opposite extreme of Tiger Mom in American culture.  That's we have so much snowflake syndrome around here.  So an awareness of being a Tiger Mom has its place, even for people who don't fully adopt the parenting style.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Identifying the extremes is important because it gives a more accurate view of where the center actually is.  What many people consider "moderate" parenting is actually much closer to the opposite extreme of Tiger Mom in American culture.  That's we have so much snowflake syndrome around here.  So an awareness of being a Tiger Mom has its place, even for people who don't fully adopt the parenting style.

 

Yeah I don't know.  I live in parental neglect land so not too many snowflakes around here in my experience.  That really is the extreme other end of that.

[MrsWeasley]

Yeah I agree.  I think it is ok for parents to push sometimes.  But I'd hope they'd be certain that it was just a matter of the kid needed a push during a difficult time rather than they want their kids to live out their dreams and meet their (extreme) expectations.  KWIM?

 

Both of mine have tried instruments.  They were not into it.  I didn't push it.  One of mine was in choir.  He kept saying how much he loved it.  Next year he didn't want to go back.  I didn't make him, but honestly I wore him down to go back because I think he just needed the encouragement.  The difficulty with it is the practices are early on Saturday morning.  Nothing like being up at the crack of dawn on a frigid winter morning when you aren't used to that.  So I understood that, but I think it's a small annoyance for what he was getting out of it.  As it turned out he was very glad he went back.  Had he been miserable I would have let him quit. 

 

I push playing an instrument. I consider it to be part of a well-rounded education. However, just like I wouldn't insist that my kids spend six hours a day on math or geography, I don't insist they play their instruments for six hours. Just like I would spend time trying to find a math program that worked for a kid who insisted they hated math rather than dropping math, I would work with finding a music program for my kid that worked for him or her. I've been lucky, though. I've had a frustrated kid rage about how she hate piano and wants to quit when unable to instantly master a new concept, she's never wanted to quit when calm and rational.

[Mergath]

Esp when they've done everything "right" and have the stats, etc, but still get rejected from Harvard/Yale, etc, due to not having such famous parents and not being lucky with the admission lottery.

 

Exactly. Everyone acts like work and parental pressure automatically lead to success, but the girls getting into Harvard probably has more to do with both parents being prestigious Ivy League law professors than anything else. My daughter, being from the rural midwest, could have the same skills and grades as these two and probably wouldn't stand a chance of getting into an Ivy League school simply because we lack the right connections. 

[Guest]

You know, when that book was hot, I had mixed feelings about it, because I DO think *many* American children have parents who hold them to no standards. They are so willy-nilly. I actually see a lot of this amongst HSers, which it seemed at one time that this was the *least* likely group to have careless parents with no standards.

 

But of course, Chua was insanely over-focused. The best line in the whole book to me was where she asked her husband what his hopes and dreams were...for their dogs! Even the Samoyeds had to be UltraDogs.

[Jean in Newcastle]

. I still believe that feeling loved and accepted is the most important determinant of adult happiness.  

 

I agree.  But you wouldn't believe how many adult Asians I've seen in person who choke back tears as they say that they never felt accepted because they were held to a standard of perfection by their parents.  And yet, their parents really did love them. 

[creekland]

Exactly. Everyone acts like work and parental pressure automatically lead to success, but the girls getting into Harvard probably has more to do with both parents being prestigious Ivy League law professors than anything else. My daughter, being from the rural midwest, could have the same skills and grades as these two and probably wouldn't stand a chance of getting into an Ivy League school simply because we lack the right connections. 

 

FWIW, there's certainly never a guarantee, but IME, being rural is a helpful hook to help with admissions IF everything else is more or less there.  Top schools like a variety in zip codes.

[MotherGoose]

I disagree with a whole lot of things that "Tiger mom" does. However, the most important one is the premise that because her children have gotten into Ivy League schools, she succeeded and if they hadn't, they would have been failures. If my kids want to strive for Ivies, that's fine, but I know plenty of people who are happy, successful people without it. It's sort of like a family member of mine who's an engineer. He pushed his first two kids, and they are both engineers. The third one came along, and although dad pushed, it was apparent that this one wasn't meant to be an engineer. He had other strengths. i wish dad would have let go of the dream of three engineer children before pushing the last one so. I want my children to be happy, fulfilled, kind children who support themselves and don't live in my basement. There are many different paths to a "successful" life. I do push academics, and piano lessons, but not to an extreme.

[JFSinIL]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/whatever-happened-to-the-original-tiger-mums-children/

 

Happy for the girls, but geesh....felt for the youngest when,

 

"“I was in the library when my friend called me over to her computer to show me that her upcoming lecture was on the subject of my childhood. They were holding an entire seminar on how my personality had responded to my mother’s parenting style – and the professor had never even met me!â€

Kinda hope she'd go to the professor (office hours, not show up in class, too embarrassing) and ask him how the blazes dare he presume to know her personality

!

[SparklyUnicorn]

I agree.  But you wouldn't believe how many adult Asians I've seen in person who choke back tears as they say that they never felt accepted because they were held to a standard of perfection by their parents.  And yet, their parents really did love them. 

 

I have not met a lot of Asians in my life, but the few I have I found interesting.  One was a Tai Chi teacher of mine.  She seemed like this very calm put together sort of person.  She barely reacted strongly to anything.  Then one day when it was just me and one other student who showed up to class we started talking about our personal lives.  Come to find out she was a nervous wreck who felt constantly like she was failing.  She talked about how much pressure her parents put on her even as an adult.  I was so surprised!

[Guest]

I should probably add that my dad, who knew absolutely nothing about horses/ponies when he bought our first two, became a second to none groom for me in later years when I was showing.

 

He installed outside lights so I could work with my horses/ponies in winter both before and after school.

 

He got a truck that could transport them. He dutifully helped care for them - doing chores if I couldn't and even sometimes when I could.

 

I don't have tons of good memories of my dad, but those are among the best of the best. I'm really glad he changed to fit me instead of trying to make me change to fit him.

 

He was also happy when I won, sad when I lost (esp unfair losses that sometimes happened), and didn't let me quit when I was down, but those traits are some that should carry over to anything when one is raising kids. It's part of the support system.

This reminds me so much of how my FIL was. When he died, a friend of my BIL gave the most moving Eulogy he may have titled "Any Other Dad." He described how FIL had built the barn and round pen, farmed hay, travelled along with the girls with the quarter horses when that was their thing. How he had built a batting cage on the farm for the boys when baseball was their thing. And so on. How he built airplanes and boats with all the boys to join them in their things. It was so moving. For an outsider to have noticed how he went so far beyond average to support the kids was so poignant.

[Guest]

I disagree with a whole lot of things that "Tiger mom" does. However, the most important one is the premise that because her children have gotten into Ivy League schools, she succeeded and if they hadn't, they would have been failures. If my kids want to strive for Ivies, that's fine, but I know plenty of people who are happy, successful people without it. It's sort of like a family member of mine who's an engineer. He pushed his first two kids, and they are both engineers. The third one came along, and although dad pushed, it was apparent that this one wasn't meant to be an engineer. He had other strengths. i wish dad would have let go of the dream of three engineer children before pushing the last one so. I want my children to be happy, fulfilled, kind children who support themselves and don't live in my basement. There are many different paths to a "successful" life. I do push academics, and piano lessons, but not to an extreme.

I agree with you, but the article does not say this per se. It says the girls are modest, polite and appear to be happy. True, they are also viewed as "successful" because of their many accomplishments and their entry into Ivy League. But when the author of the article says that Chua is "having the last laugh," it is said that the girls are not mentally ill oddballs.

[Joyofsixreboot]

Yeah I don't know. I live in parental neglect land so not too many snowflakes around here in my experience. That really is the extreme other end of that.

Yes, unless it's sports no one is pushing their kids very hard here. My pushing is nothing by Tiger Mom standards. I expect good grades and ethics. Not too much else. I think by not urging them they have been able to find their own interests vs what I might think would be good. If not they can complain to their future therapists.

[mathnerd]

When I read Battle Hymn of a Tiger Mom, I did not find a parenting manual but rather a funny parenting memoir. Especially important, the Tiger Mom eventually relents on violin. When her younger daughter develops an interest in tennis, her mom supports her. When her daughter starts to feel like her mom is taking over tennis, her mom backs off. I don't agree with all her parenting choices, but she comes off as less sure, more responsive in the book than in its media coverage.

 

 

I found the Tiger Mom's book very funny and self-deprecating. Her daughters are not ordinary - Tiger Mom's father is a highly respected professor in his field, Tiger Mom's husband dropped out of Juilliard to study law at an Ivy and Tiger Mom herself is a very, very smart woman. Her daughters inherited a lot of good genes, probably are profoundly gifted and had motivated parents and money and opportunity. Chances are that with that combination, they would be super successful no matter if they performed a musical instrument in Carnegie Hall or practiced the violin 6 hours a day. She made a lot of money writing a book that sounded like a funny take on her "asian" style parenting to me, raked up controversy and went on to write more books. I especially liked the part where Amy takes in her dying MIL who she does not get along too well with (despite her husband's caution) because they are family and she wants to care for her family. When you look between the lines, the Tiger Mom is a determined, funny and caring woman. You would be surprised at how many basketball and football players are Tiger Parented in America (but, it is Sports and hence it is "coaching").

 

ETA: I am acquainted with the Tiger Parent of a 6 year old future Baseball Superstar too IRL.

Edited February 1, 2016 by mathnerd

[SparklyUnicorn]

I push playing an instrument. I consider it to be part of a well-rounded education. However, just like I wouldn't insist that my kids spend six hours a day on math or geography, I don't insist they play their instruments for six hours. Just like I would spend time trying to find a math program that worked for a kid who insisted they hated math rather than dropping math, I would work with finding a music program for my kid that worked for him or her. I've been lucky, though. I've had a frustrated kid rage about how she hate piano and wants to quit when unable to instantly master a new concept, she's never wanted to quit when calm and rational.

 

Yeah I don't have strong feelings either way about any of this.  Different people have different priorities.  Part of why I don't push musical instruments is quite frankly I just don't have the money to burn on something my kid does not absolutely love.  If I did, well I might go about it differently.

[Joyofsixreboot]

This reminds me so much of how my FIL was. When he died, a friend of my BIL gave the most moving Eulogy he may have titled "Any Other Dad." He described how FIL had built the barn and round pen, farmed hay, travelled along with the girls with the quarter horses when that was their thing. How he had built a batting cage on the farm for the boys when baseball was their thing. And so on. How he built airplanes and boats with all the boys to join them in their things. It was so moving. For an outsider to have noticed how he went so far beyond average to support the kids was so poignant.

I know they loved their dad but this makes me feel squeamish. To my sensibilities it seems too much. Spoiling. Excessive. Proving again it's probably upbringing and family culture we repeat. I come from a long line of benevolent neglect.

Edited February 1, 2016 by joyofsix

[creekland]

This reminds me so much of how my FIL was. When he died, a friend of my BIL gave the most moving Eulogy he may have titled "Any Other Dad." He described how FIL had built the barn and round pen, farmed hay, travelled along with the girls with the quarter horses when that was their thing. How he had built a batting cage on the farm for the boys when baseball was their thing. And so on. How he built airplanes and boats with all the boys to join them in their things. It was so moving. For an outsider to have noticed how he went so far beyond average to support the kids was so poignant.

 

Yes, this was the good about my dad.  When I think back about it, it makes the bad so much more depressing as he had such a good heart (and tries to now - sometimes).  Mental illnesses are exceedingly awful.  As he's aged, his have gotten worse (sigh).  We were cleaning out a "storage" part of our bedroom yesterday and I finally tossed a piece of paper he sent me detailing things he found in his house that were mine and ending it with "TAKE ME OFF YOUR MAILING LIST." (in all caps on the paper)

 

Seize the day and enjoy what you have.  One never knows when life will change.

 

 

If not they can complain to their future therapists.

 

We've often told our boys we are guessing (or were guessing) with our decisions, so might have to pay for therapy later on. :lol:  All one can ever really do in the present is make their best guess.

[SKL]

 

We've often told our boys we are guessing (or were guessing) with our decisions, so might have to pay for therapy later on. :lol:  All one can ever really do in the present is make their best guess.

 

The way I look at it is, if I've failed, at least my kids can write a memoir about their trials and make a living off of that.  :P

 

[creekland]

I know they loved their dad but this makes me feel squeamish. To my sensibilities it seems too much. Spoiling. Excessive. Proving again it's probably upbringing and family culture we repeat. I come from a long line of benevolent neglect.

 

It was anything but... it gave me my great memories of my dad.  We were doing things together and he was my chief cheerleader during those good times.

 

It can be family culture.  With my own boys we've traveled together, played together, watched our entertainment together, and cheered them on in their things.  It never went as far as having to build things for them, but that was due to their interests.

 

They've all grown up to be well respected leaders in their adult and/or circles now.  There have been no issues finding or keeping jobs, etc.

[Roadrunner]

I would love to know how they did this time wise. Both girls went to fancy private schools, which scream lot of homework to me. Say you get home by 3 pm and put in 2 hours of homework. There is simply no time for six hour practice unless you don't sleep. I am thinking some of this has to be exaggerated.

[mathnerd]

I am thinking some of this has to be exaggerated.

Yes. The book sounded more tongue in cheek and self-deprecating to me than a portrayal of abusive parenting when I read it and I was confused about why people would be up in arms against her. I also think that they might have practiced 8 hours a day just before the Carnegie Hall debut or some such super important performance. But, if the girls were very smart (which I think they are), they might have finished homework very quickly and practiced for 1-2 hours daily which is not extra-ordinary given how people do it all the time in the area where I live.

 

 

ETA:

I googled and found a recent article talking about the sisters living their life as adults, and they seem to be happy and successful and not resentful of their mother

http://harvardmagazine.com/2015/07/the-tiger-daughter-intact

 

Excerpt:

Battle Hymn—whose self-parody was lost on many readers—has been profoundly misunderstood by many Westerners who confuse “tiger parenting†with “helicopter parenting,†Lulu explained: “My mom is never the type of person who hovers over me to make sure I do my homework.†The essence of tiger parenting, instead, is in believing that a child can succeed, and pushing her to go all out. What makes the Tiger Mother truly happy is not that her child gets all As, but that the child is  able to look back and say, “I couldn’t have worked any harder.†Her mother’s tough love has taught Lulu that blindly showering a child with praise without seeing actual results will not enhance self-esteem, and that “It’s important to push kids to reach their full potential.â€

Perhaps the most telling sign of Amy Chua’s parenting success is the fact that, despite all the hair-tearing, glass-smashing, and (threatened) doll-burning, Lulu says, “I don’t think [i’ll raise my children] any other way.â€

 

 

ETA2:

Sophia has joined the Army and her parents are proud of her for doing so. I had not seen that news before. 

Edited February 1, 2016 by mathnerd

[Samm]

They tore hair and smashed glasses?  I am always a little more stunned by the sensationalist, cruel to be kind, heartwarming revelations every time news about them blips on the screen every couple years.  Seems oddly affected is all.

[Annie G]

You know, when that book was hot, I had mixed feelings about it, because I DO think *many* American children have parents who hold them to no standards. They are so willy-nilly. I actually see a lot of this amongst HSers, which it seemed at one time that this was the *least* likely group to have careless parents with no standards.

 

But of course, Chua was insanely over-focused. The best line in the whole book to me was where she asked her husband what his hopes and dreams were...for their dogs! Even the Samoyeds had to be UltraDogs.

 

Exactly how I feel. I know homeschoolers who routinely do three or four days of school a week (Not intense, focused days, either) and justify it because 'it's still better than what the public schools are doing'.   

 

I wish I had pushed our kids harder in almost every area.  But not like Tiger Mom. So somewhere in the middle. But man, when you're in the trenches, it's hard to know whether you're pushing the right amount. 

[Guest]

I know they loved their dad but this makes me feel squeamish. To my sensibilities it seems too much. Spoiling. Excessive. Proving again it's probably upbringing and family culture we repeat. I come from a long line of benevolent neglect.

No way. It was far from spoiling. It was investment. Spoiling is when everything is done for the kids and the kids don't lift a finger. Spoiled kids don't get up at 5am to milk the cows before school. Also, in my FIL's case, I think he saw half-way through that he needed to be involved with what the kids were doing, because when the oldest couple were young, he was mostly pursuing his own hobbies (antique cars and airplane racing). But as the kids got into their teens (which meant a few kids were still young kids), he stepped it up and did those things that I mentioned. He got involved in horses only because he wanted to join in his daughters' world, which I think is quite impressive.

 

Personally, the older I get, the more I want everyone to just leave me alone. It would behoove me to take a page from that book.

[Guest]

Yes. The book sounded more tongue in cheek and self-deprecating to me than a portrayal of abusive parenting when I read it and I was confused about why people would be up in arms against her. I also think that they might have practiced 8 hours a day just before the Carnegie Hall debut or some such super important performance. But, if the girls were very smart (which I think they are), they might have finished homework very quickly and practiced for 1-2 hours daily which is not extra-ordinary given how people do it all the time in the area where I live.

 

 

ETA:

I googled and found a recent article talking about the sisters living their life as adults, and they seem to be happy and successful and not resentful of their mother

http://harvardmagazine.com/2015/07/the-tiger-daughter-intact

 

Excerpt:

Battle Hymn—whose self-parody was lost on many readers—has been profoundly misunderstood by many Westerners who confuse “tiger parenting†with “helicopter parenting,†Lulu explained: “My mom is never the type of person who hovers over me to make sure I do my homework.†The essence of tiger parenting, instead, is in believing that a child can succeed, and pushing her to go all out. What makes the Tiger Mother truly happy is not that her child gets all As, but that the child is able to look back and say, “I couldn’t have worked any harder.†Her mother’s tough love has taught Lulu that blindly showering a child with praise without seeing actual results will not enhance self-esteem, and that “It’s important to push kids to reach their full potential.â€

Perhaps the most telling sign of Amy Chua’s parenting success is the fact that, despite all the hair-tearing, glass-smashing, and (threatened) doll-burning, Lulu says, “I don’t think [i’ll raise my children] any other way.â€

 

 

ETA2:

Sophia has joined the Army and her parents are proud of her for doing so. I had not seen that news before.

The part she said about the birthday card, though...that I could not get behind. She said something like, "I spend thousands of dollars on your birthdays, but on mine, you give me a scribbled card?! Do it over! I reject this card!" That did not sound like parody to me. That sounded like a hateful exchange I would not utter in my worst nightmare.

[Guest]

I would love to know how they did this time wise. Both girls went to fancy private schools, which scream lot of homework to me. Say you get home by 3 pm and put in 2 hours of homework. There is simply no time for six hour practice unless you don't sleep. I am thinking some of this has to be exaggerated.

There were a couple parts in the book, IIRC, where Mom took them out of school for two hours for practice. So...I don't know how this worked, exactly, but I'm thinking if you go to a very high-end private school and you want to excuse your kid from an art class and Health and Fitness, so they can practice music for their upcoming Carnegie Hall performance, then you can.

 

What I could never figure out is how Mom had the time to do that, as she was a professional and had a "real job" as well.

[8circles]

Disclaimer: I didn't read the Battle Hymn book.  I don't want to, although I've read some excerpts.

 

My reaction to the article? I think it is too soon to say how the daughters turned-out.  I am not asian, but I was raised in some ways similarly.  In college, as a young professional, as a new mother, would have said my childhood was tough, though happy.  I would have said that I would raise my children similarly.  But I became broken because there was such a disconnect between how I was raised & what I saw/felt happening when I tried to do the same.  I realized that I was in denial.  My childhood wasn't happy, it was just tough.  I have no desire to raise my children that way because I can see how unhealthy it is.  I have scars from it.  I would have said that I felt loved, but I really didn't.  I would have said that because I thought I was supposed to.

 

I also just can't wrap my head around what "success" means to people & how important it is to achieve your highest possible potential or you're a failure.  When I look back at my life, I don't think I'll care much if I *achieved* everything I could have.  There's probably a lot I could achieve that I just have no interest in.

[marbel]

I know they loved their dad but this makes me feel squeamish. To my sensibilities it seems too much. Spoiling. Excessive. Proving again it's probably upbringing and family culture we repeat. I come from a long line of benevolent neglect.

 

I see what you mean but I don't think of it as spoiling.  It's supporting the kids' interest.

 

What bothers me - not as in I disapprove, but as in I am a bit envious - is the resources such parents must have to support the kids' interests that way.   One of my kids has an intense and useful interest that we simply can't support in the way we would like - we lack space, finances, etc for it.  That's not to say no one else should do it - I think it's great - but sometimes parents who would like to do more for their kids, simply don't have the resources to do it. 

 

Yeah, I said I was a bit envious.  But it would also be a little concerning if that becomes the standard for "good parenting."

 

I think benevolent neglect can work very well, too.  :-)

[8circles]

They tore hair and smashed glasses?  I am always a little more stunned by the sensationalist, cruel to be kind, heartwarming revelations every time news about them blips on the screen every couple years.  Seems oddly affected is all.

 

Yeah, this stuff just confuses me.  How do any of these things fit in a healthy family?  Who is doing these things, the kids or the parents?  

 & then we hear essentially, "it's OK, they're at Harvard now so it's all good".

[8circles]

I agree with you, but the article does not say this per se. It says the girls are modest, polite and appear to be happy. True, they are also viewed as "successful" because of their many accomplishments and their entry into Ivy League. But when the author of the article says that Chua is "having the last laugh," it is said that the girls are not mentally ill oddballs.

 

1) How do we know this?

 

2) What relevance does this have?  

 

I'm not picking on you, Quill.  I just am finding this discussion interesting but really confusing.  I'm having trouble figuring out why and how certain things are important.

[SKL]

I could pick out the doozies in my upbringing or even the times I wasn't proud of my behavior as a mom.  If you don't have any parenting memories you aren't proud of, you're probably not human.  I don't think a few bad moments really prove anything, assuming they even really happened.  But, it won't be the first time some stuff was quoted out of context to sway opinions.

 

I am glad to hear the book was meant to be funny and probably involved some exaggeration.  I guess I should read it so I can decide if the attempt at humor was a fail or not.  :P  Someday.