Is writing needed for a 3rd grader?

[hands-on-mama]

I have been going over this in my head for a bit. I recently read an article by a homeschooling mom that got me thinking. She chose to delay formal instruction until her children were 11 or 12. She said that it was much easier for them to learn how to write well in a shorter amount of time at an older age. What are your thoughts? Do you teach writing to your 3rd grader? I have a feeling it might be too much for my girl. 

[Gil]

I'm not sure what you mean by "writing"? but I think that "needed" is a trigger word. Many things are beneficial or enriching but not needed.

Writing in what way--handwriting, grammatically correct writing, sentences, paragraphs, reports and essays?

 

We do a good deal of composition--many, but not all of which are written compositions.

[hands-on-mama]

I mean in the way of official writing instruction. Of course we do copywork, narrating and dictations, but I'm speaking of teaching the child to formulate written output. That can be letters, paragraphs, etc. I just kind of want to get a feel for how many do formal composition lessons with their 3rd graders.

 

[Erica in OR]

In the past, we've done the composition lessons that are included within the Rod and Staff English instruction. They're scattered throughout the book and usually include things like writing a letter, relating a story, an oral report, etc. Nothing too high powered, but it keeps it on the radar.

 

Within the last couple of years, we've started Memoria Press's Classical Composition series. They recommend you start the first book in 4th or 5th grade. The curriculum progresses through 12th grade.

 

Erica in OR

[Ellie]

I mean in the way of official writing instruction. Of course we do copywork, narrating and dictations, but I'm speaking of teaching the child to formulate written output. That can be letters, paragraphs, etc. I just kind of want to get a feel for how many do formal composition lessons with their 3rd graders.

 

I think that's enough for a little person who is just 8yo, although an 8yo person could surely learn how to write friendly letters (and that includes knowing how to correctly fold the paper to fit into the envelope, and how to address the envelope) to grandparents or others who care about her.

 

I think there's way too much emphasis on writing paragraphs. You don't want your child to think of writing paragraphs. You want her to think of writing first, and then of dividing what she has written into paragraphs so others can read without getting headaches because it's just one big paragraph. :-)

[Gil]

I mean in the way of official writing instruction. Of course we do copywork, narrating and dictations, but I'm speaking of teaching the child to formulate written output. That can be letters, paragraphs, etc. I just kind of want to get a feel for how many do formal composition lessons with their 3rd graders.

We have began to dabble in writing more seriously now in 3rd grade, but only because I have found Treasured Conversations enables me to meet the boys where they are at with writing and work with them.

 

I don't think that its crucial to begin writing super early--I fussed about grammar a little in grade 1 because it seemed like it should be done, but we never got to it consistently or in a meaningful way. What did happen was that I kept the focus on their oral and aural grammar. I made sure that I was speaking correctly and that they were speaking correctly. I think that most kids in a healthy language environment could begin formal writing instruction between 3rd and 6th grade without much loss.

 

I guess when we do a grammar driven Spanish course, we'll get all the formal grammar stuff done. Currently we do Spanish via pseudo-immersion.

 

Edited January 30, 2016 by Gil

[SilverMoon]

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Edited May 18 by SilverMoon

[hands-on-mama]

Need? No. Beneficial when developmentally appropriate? Absolutely.

 

Copywork, narration, and dictation are teaching a child how to form written output. Through those activities they're filling their minds with examples of good sentences. For some third graders that's plenty. Others ought to be moving on. An 8yo who has been copying and dictating good sentences for awhile now ought to be capable of stringing a few sentences of the same topic into a paragraph, writing a thank you letter to Grandma for the birthday money, filling out a recipe card, and such. An 8yo balking over this or a 12yo learning how to do it much faster doesn't mean these aren't worthwhile exercises for the 8yo. A 12yo would likely learn how to swim faster than an 8yo too, but we don't generally push off learning to swim for that long. It's still very worthwhile for the 8yo.

 

If my third graders were strong readers and coming along on spelling, penmanship, etc, they were ready to start a real composition writing book. The ones who thought they were deathly allergic to their pencils or were late bloomers reading waited until 4th-5th. Priorities. My nearly 8yo DD is neither of those; she writes out the grammar exercises from Rod and Staff English 3 daily. That doubles as her grammar and her composition. Next school year she'll use Treasured Conversations for grammar and writing.

See, this is where it's tricky. She is between those two ends. She will be 8 1/2 when we start 3rd grade. She was an early reader, is a fantastic speller but the physical act of writin has always been hard on her. She has come a long way though. I'm thinking she may just need another year of strengthening those motor skills before we can do a lot more writing. We have toyed with Write Shop B this year but it is always the first to go if we run out of time.

[pehp]

In my mind, oral narration is composition.  So my son, who is third grade, engages in composition by orally narrating from books on a daily basis. Then there's the physical aspect: copywork. (we do not do dictation yet because neither of us are ready.)

 

I think from reading your description that a year of copywork would be beneficial....my own attitude is that it's better to start a little later than a little earlier.

 

I do expect certain output, though: in January our normal copywork moves aside and we write thank-you notes for Christmas gifts.  My son seems to be able to generate some pretty good little sentences when describing what he has done w/ his Christmas goodies.  

 

He has also been writing short stories about a hermit who lives in the woods.  They are beyond charming.  This is not part of school in any way--he just likes to get up in the morning and write, and it's all his own volition.  No paragraphs, no parents correcting anything, and fabulous plots full of adventure. And mis-spelled words.  :) 

 

All that's to say is: I think it's safe to follow her lead.  If she's reading good books and narrating from them, and doing copywork, and your instinct is to hold off....follow your instinct. Sounds like she's doing great. :) 

 

 

[Mimicoto]

I don't have any advice, but I so needed to read this thread tonight....for reasons that are too long to get into here and not relevant) to the topic), my 8 yo DS did an academic assessment this week that included expectations for 3rd graders that seem to be common in public and private schools - much writing, including writing a 5 sentence paragraph.  He performed miserably below expectations (known only to DH and I)....devastating for as we have been soooooo proud of the tremendous progress he has made this year.  It was a really big deal that he wrote a very decent letter to Santa this year - it is the largest amount of work he's ever produced.  Apparently not in alignment with what the institution in question expects from 3rd graders.

 

DS was the 'allergic to a pencil' type until just this year...taking a slow gentle, CM type approach with literature-based study, copywork and narration has gotten him over an abject refusal to even put pencil to paper that lasted until this past fall.  He is a voracious reader, loves words and is a heck of a narrator.  Comments on this thread give me hope that, if we stay the course, this will translate to written output at the right time.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Mimicoto

[abba12]

I seperate composition from the physical act of writing.

 

Writing a paragraph is putting it all together, handwriting, spelling, grammar, composition, everything. I prefer to work on each skill separately and at it's own pace until it's ready to come together. 

 

To me, 'composition' is my 1st grader telling me two sentences in response to a discussion question, verbally.  I might ask her to write that composition on paper next year when her handwriting is good enough, at which point I'll probably be looking for verbal paragraphs. For a child delayed in writing or grammar, verbal composition is much simpler because it is ONE skill (maybe one and a half, when you consider grammatical correctness of the sentences, but spoken grammar is more natural than written grammar)

 

By 3rd grade I would think paragraph verbal composition is an almost vital skill, but moving that onto a written form might take longer for some kids. 

[Mimicoto]

I seperate composition from the physical act of writing.

 

Writing a paragraph is putting it all together, handwriting, spelling, grammar, composition, everything. I prefer to work on each skill separately and at it's own pace until it's ready to come together. 

 

To me, 'composition' is my 1st grader telling me two sentences in response to a discussion question, verbally.  I might ask her to write that composition on paper next year when her handwriting is good enough, at which point I'll probably be looking for verbal paragraphs. For a child delayed in writing or grammar, verbal composition is much simpler because it is ONE skill (maybe one and a half, when you consider grammatical correctness of the sentences, but spoken grammar is more natural than written grammar)

 

By 3rd grade I would think paragraph verbal composition is an almost vital skill, but moving that onto a written form might take longer for some kids. 

 

Can I multi-like this post abba12??? :laugh:  Being new to HSing (and having had my confidence very badly shaken by my DSs experience this week), seeing the writing process broken down into its component parts is incredibly helpful.  DS composes verbal essays (and sometimes multi-chapter books over a period of days!), so he's definitely got that part of it down!  :lol:

[SanDiegoMom]

Regarding the physical act -- have you tried  gel pens? That is all we use for writing. Pencils for math and logic workbooks and any other writing uses pretty colored gel pens. And not just any gel pens, either! I have gotten cheaper gel pens and found they don't glide as well! We use only Pentel Energel (that's what it says on the pen itself -- not sure what the package says) and they come in packs of five, all different colors.  I once got uniball and they IMMEDIATELY noticed a difference! I tried to write with it and it was not nearly as effortless as our standbys.  

 

It is expensive, but worth it! 

 

They now type most of their work though. They don't write a ton every day -- maybe two paragraphs worth? But they are much happier typing if they can. 

[hands-on-mama]

Regarding the physical act -- have you tried  gel pens? That is all we use for writing. Pencils for math and logic workbooks and any other writing uses pretty colored gel pens. And not just any gel pens, either! I have gotten cheaper gel pens and found they don't glide as well! We use only Pentel Energel (that's what it says on the pen itself -- not sure what the package says) and they come in packs of five, all different colors.  I once got uniball and they IMMEDIATELY noticed a difference! I tried to write with it and it was not nearly as effortless as our standbys.  

 

It is expensive, but worth it! 

 

They now type most of their work though. They don't write a ton every day -- maybe two paragraphs worth? But they are much happier typing if they can. 

 

 

I have not thought to even try this! This might be a very helpful idea! We are planning to attempt cursive this next year and this might just help!

[hands-on-mama]

I really appreciate everyone's thoughts! I think she is fine as far as oral composition goes. We are still working on narration. It seems like if she knows it's school, she clams up almost instantly. We'll continue moving forward and see where we end up. :)

[Mimicoto]

Regarding the physical act -- have you tried  gel pens? That is all we use for writing. Pencils for math and logic workbooks and any other writing uses pretty colored gel pens. And not just any gel pens, either! I have gotten cheaper gel pens and found they don't glide as well! We use only Pentel Energel (that's what it says on the pen itself -- not sure what the package says) and they come in packs of five, all different colors.  I once got uniball and they IMMEDIATELY noticed a difference! I tried to write with it and it was not nearly as effortless as our standbys.  

 

It is expensive, but worth it! 

 

They now type most of their work though. They don't write a ton every day -- maybe two paragraphs worth? But they are much happier typing if they can. 

 

My DH suggested something similar....he can't stand the feel of a regular pen or - heaven forbid, a pencil! - dragging on paper.  Both he and DS have sensory processing issues so you may be on to something there!  Will give it a go!

[KSinNS]

Depends on the kid. I'm gently starting more written output with T age 9 this year, and she now can succeed on small projects. Last year writing was a disaster, so we did copybook, free writing and oral narration. D maybe next year. I comfort myself that Charlotte Mason felt that the transition from oral to written work should start around age 10, and Milton even older. He has a great quote about wringing writing from mere saplings.

[Guest]

Yes, I think it is important for third grade aged NT children to write, as a general rule.

 

However, WHAT they need to write, and how often, depends on your whole educational philosophy. If you unschool, they should be writing ~whatever~ but they should by now be able to take pen and paper in hand and do something with it.

 

If you follow CM, BW, or progym methods then it might still be copywork or dictation or whatever.

 

If you're going a traditional or ps-bound route, bust out your R&S or Evan Moor and getuh crackin'.

 

The trick with any mindset, is expecting just the right amount of work for that individual child.

[Mimicoto]

Yes, I think it is important for third grade aged NT children to write, as a general rule.

 

However, WHAT they need to write, and how often, depends on your whole educational philosophy. If you unschool, they should be writing ~whatever~ but they should by now be able to take pen and paper in hand and do something with it.

 

If you follow CM, BW, or progym methods then it might still be copywork or dictation or whatever.

 

If you're going a traditional or ps-bound route, bust out your R&S or Evan Moor and getuh crackin'.

 

The trick with any mindset, is expecting just the right amount of work for that individual child.

 

Well said!

[michaeljenn]

Great Question!  I started my 3rd grader on IEW Bible Heroes. He did ok on the first few assignments, but it was like pulling teeth, so we put it away.  My 11yo was in public school for 3rd grade and yes, they did expect 5 paragraph persuasive, compare and contrast, ect...  Here is the thing though... After she completed it and it was graded she brought it home.  I read through the papers and they were filled with run on sentences, comma splices ect... But she still made A's.  I personally think expecting a 3rd grade child to write papers is too much.  WHY do they need to write those types of papers at 8-9y???  I am now of the opinion that formal writing can wait until 11, 12 or even 13 depending on the child.  My 3rd grader is doing CLE English and does lots of copywork and I do think that is plenty.  I have Treasured Conversations and plan to go through that with him in 4th or 5th grade.   My 11yo is doing IEW American History based writing and is doing great with it.  She did say that it is getting boring and is too easy.  I may sign her up for a WWS online class next year.  I truly think it all depends on the child.  Some are ready and some are not.  Go with your gut! You know best and try not to keep up with the public school.  Schools do not know what they are doing! LOL  

 

[Holly]

One thing ELTL has been having us do is have me write out her oral narrations for her to copy later during her copywork lesson.  I think it's a brilliant way to transition to written narrations!  Ideally, I like to start writing lessons in 4th grade, but she sometimes joins in with the older DC's lessons from Write On.