"Why The Calorie is Broken" or Why Calories In - Calories Out Isn't As Simple As Some of You Think

[*Jessica*]

This article is a fantastic read. http://arstechnica.co.uk/science/2016/01/why-the-calorie-is-broken/

[trulycrabby]

Thank you very much! Fascinating!

[ktgrok]

This was excellent. Also, if anyone is interested, I looked up what probiotic strain was used in the study with women where they lost nearly twice as much weight when taking the probiotic. It was the one in Culturelle, Lactobacillus Rhamonus GG. (I think I spelled that right.) that's also the one being tested to help with peanut allergies, rotavirus exposure, etc etc. 

 

I won't lie, I just ordered some. 

[kroe1]

Gut microbes causing weight gain?

 

For me, all I have to do is look back at photos of family dinners and compare them to today's photos. I do not think gut microbes made the chicken breasts larger, the plates larger, or the bigger pile of mashed potatoes.

[Guest]

Gut microbes causing weight gain?

 

For me, all I have to do is look back at photos of family dinners and compare them to today's photos. I do not think gut microbes made the chicken breasts larger, the plates larger, or the bigger pile of mashed potatoes.

 

The article didn't say gut microbes are the only thing that has ever caused any one at any time to gain weight.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Gut microbes causing weight gain?

 

For me, all I have to do is look back at photos of family dinners and compare them to today's photos. I do not think gut microbes made the chicken breasts larger, the plates larger, or the bigger pile of mashed potatoes.

 

I didn't read the article in full, but I would say the opposite is true in my family.  Plates were piled higher years ago yet various family members have a harder time controlling their weight. 

[Tanaqui]

Gut microbes causing weight gain?

 

For me, all I have to do is look back at photos of family dinners and compare them to today's photos. I do not think gut microbes made the chicken breasts larger, the plates larger, or the bigger pile of mashed potatoes.

 

Interesting fact. A person in 1980 of a certain age who ate x amount of calories daily and got y amount of exercise would still weigh less than a person today who is the same age/sex and makes all the same choices.

[Chelli]

This was excellent. Also, if anyone is interested, I looked up what probiotic strain was used in the study with women where they lost nearly twice as much weight when taking the probiotic. It was the one in Culturelle, Lactobacillus Rhamonus GG. (I think I spelled that right.) that's also the one being tested to help with peanut allergies, rotavirus exposure, etc etc. 

 

I won't lie, I just ordered some. 

 

Can you link to the one you bought when you get a chance? I'm finding different ones pop up when I search.

 

Thanks!

[ktgrok]

Can you link to the one you bought when you get a chance? I'm finding different ones pop up when I search.

 

Thanks!

 

I got the chewables because I have problems swallowing pills, but I think the pill version is cheaper if I remember correctly. http://www.amazon.com/Culturelle-Digestive-Health-Chewable-Tablets/dp/B00CM8L32M/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1453919749&sr=8-1&keywords=culturelle+chewable

[creekland]

Very interesting article.  Thanks for sharing it.  It's amazing just how much they are figuring out with science/nutrition and our bodies.

[LibraryLover]

Interesting fact. A person in 1980 of a certain age who ate x amount of calories daily and got y amount of exercise would still weigh less than a person today who is the same age/sex and makes all the same choices.

 

 Was it all the smoking? I remember everyone smoking when I was a kid. All the adults in photos are squinting from cigarette smoke. We  kids walked around in clouds of it. (We made clay ashtrays in school)  Fi, photos of of the folks Woodstock.  Most of the women are just not as curvy as we are now, and many of the men are equally ethereal.  Most folks weren't 'working out' or doing hot yoga. They also had fatty and starchy college cafeteria food, pizza, Coke, Pepsi etc . 

Edited January 27, 2016 by LibraryLover

[Outdoorsy Type]

Ordering the probiotic! Thanks for the recommendation.

[kroe1]

Interesting fact. A person in 1980 of a certain age who ate x amount of calories daily and got y amount of exercise would still weigh less than a person today who is the same age/sex and makes all the same choices.

The study in question did not account for increased mass of today's servings. It also had to rely on people's perceptions of past portions. I am not saying portion size is everything, but it, by far, has the greatest impact. Certainly, overuse of prescription drugs is number two. Anxiolytics, beta blockers, insulin, other diabetes medications, antidepressants, hormones, steroids, opiates, etc. can increase pounds. Never has our society been so dependent on daily prescription medications. Other chemicals, especially hormones added to livestock is a close third. Gut microbes is, most likely a byproduct of other factors rather than a major cause of obesity.

[Seasider]

I haven't read the article yet, but I'm pretty sure of one thing. You didn't find high fructose corn syrup in everything. There was real sugar in that there coke and a cold 10oz bottle was completely satisfying. And we all knew the tall bottles of orange crush were meant to be shared.

[Guest]

Well the thing about gut flora, is that when you don't have the right sort, or enough of it, you and your resident germies are not digesting your food properly in the first place. Leading you to need to eat more mass to get the same amount of nutrition as you would if everything were A-OK squared away in there.

 

But again, none of this is to suggest that people shouldn't eat less if they need to eat less. Ideally, most of all our food would be jam-packed nutritionally (which could take us down the rabbit trail of reduced nutrition in food today because of mineral-deficient soil.... so say you need two carrots instead of the one sixty years ago to get the same amount of Vitamin A or whatever your hot bod wants carrots for...) and prepared in the most bio-available way, and we'd all be perfectly primed to absorb that perfect nutrition in perfect propotion to our bodily need.

 

Alas.

[creekland]

I gotta admit I like the thought that my rare steak not only tastes better, but it also gives me fewer calories.  ;)

 

Now I wonder if I can use it as an excuse to eat steak anytime soon.  :coolgleamA:

[ktgrok]

I gotta admit I like the thought that my rare steak not only tastes better, but it also gives me fewer calories.  ;)

 

Now I wonder if I can use it as an excuse to eat steak anytime soon.  :coolgleamA:

 

LOL, I had the same thought. 

[Laura Corin]

I haven't read the article yet, but I'm pretty sure of one thing. You didn't find high fructose corn syrup in everything. There was real sugar in that there coke and a cold 10oz bottle was completely satisfying. And we all knew the tall bottles of orange crush were meant to be shared.

 

I'm with you on sugar in general, but I've got to argue with the idea that HCFS is a major contributor: it's rare in the UK (we don't have the climate to grow much maize, and so we eat beet sugar or imported cane sugar) and yet we tracking America in our obesity and lifestyle diseases.

[Katy]

nm

Edited July 22, 2016 by Katy

[ktgrok]

I'm with you on sugar in general, but I've got to argue with the idea that HCFS is a major contributor: it's rare in the UK (we don't have the climate to grow much maize, and so we eat beet sugar or imported cane sugar) and yet we tracking America in our obesity and lifestyle diseases.

 

Yup, it's sugar in general. Sucrose, aka table sugar aka "real sugar" is about half fructose, as is HFCS. They both are awful for you in any large amount. And they are in everything, at least here they are. 

[Ottakee]

Interesting. My daughter just had a fecal transplant for C diff in December and the dinar had to have a healthy BMI as they said otherwise there was a risk of my daughter gaining weight.

 

Yesterday at our primary he told us about research on doing fecal transplants for overweight people using donors with low BMI and how it is working in many cases.

[Laura Corin]

Yup, it's sugar in general. Sucrose, aka table sugar aka "real sugar" is about half fructose, as is HFCS. They both are awful for you in any large amount. And they are in everything, at least here they are. 

 

Here too.  

 

I've never eaten much prepared food - I wasn't brought up with it, my mother cooked from scratch -  so at least I know when I'm eating sugar: chocolate, biscuits (cookies), yoghurt, home-made granola.

[Guest]

So all this time I've been blaming multiple courses of prednisone for resetting my metabolism set point so I'm hungry all the time if I weigh less than 80 pounds more than I did previously, but it was probably that the psychiatric meds I tried off-label to stop the chronic cluster headaches changed my gut bacteria??? Thank you SO MUCH for posting this. The linked article about psychiatric meds is fascinating.

 

 

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!! Ordering some too.

It's not either/or. Prednisone probably did contribute, I know issues with my cortisol and steroid supplementation and treatments have certainly contributed to my massive and rapid weight increase in the last year, as well as my inability to get it off.

 

But the gut and digestive/immune health absolutely matters. I have much better results with less bloating and IBS from eating fermented foods than taking a probiotic, and properly cultured foods are cheaper and more powerful. Kefir and homemade kvass and sauerkraut for the win. Pickled ginger (homemade ferment) is excellent as well. But I'm glad they're beginning to isolate strains and help people to supplement in a more personalized and targeted way. Anything is worth a try, right?

 

I admit I'd love to try a fecal transplant to see if it would help too, as squicky as it is. I'm THAT tired of this weight. Being 100 pounds heavier in a single year is just horrendously demoralizing :(

[gardenmom5]

I'm with you on sugar in general, but I've got to argue with the idea that HCFS is a major contributor: it's rare in the UK (we don't have the climate to grow much maize, and so we eat beet sugar or imported cane sugar) and yet we tracking America in our obesity and lifestyle diseases.

 

HFCS - also contains mercury.  they use caustic soda to extract the sugar from the corn.  caustic soda contains mercury.  dudeling was drinking pop while having a blood draw (it was a bribe).  his mercury level -  . . . . was 7.6.  the equivalent of swallowing a mercury thermometer.  one more reason to avoid it.  and because of how the receptors respond to it in the brain - items sweetened with it aren't as satisfying.  and sugar affects the hunger receptors in the brain so you'll eat more.  yeah, I hate the stuff.

 

eta; read labels - sugar is still sugar, processed foods still contain alot of it

Edited January 27, 2016 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

This was excellent. Also, if anyone is interested, I looked up what probiotic strain was used in the study with women where they lost nearly twice as much weight when taking the probiotic. It was the one in Culturelle, Lactobacillus Rhamonus GG. (I think I spelled that right.) that's also the one being tested to help with peanut allergies, rotavirus exposure, etc etc. 

 

I won't lie, I just ordered some. 

 

I'm ordering some too.  amazon has it on s&s. 

 

I've already experienced the difference the right type of probiotic in the gut can make in *many* areas of health  (NOT "just" digestion). . . .

[ktgrok]

The more I google about micro biome, fecal transplants, and probiotics the more intrigued I am. This is some interesting sh*t, pun intended!

[Katy]

nm

Edited July 22, 2016 by Katy

[Ottakee]

I'd like to try it too.  I even watched a youtube video on how to do it yourself.  Unfortunately I can't think of anyone I know who is thin and also healthy.  Every thin person I know is also sick in some way.

 

I am not sure I would want to do the "do it yourself" method without having the donor do some tests.  Our donor for my dd had to have stool cultures done and blood tests done to make sure there was nothing that could be passed on to my daughter.  One potential donor had NOT symptoms but was positive for h pylori and therefore was ineligible to donate.

 

It certainly does look promising though.

[Bluegoat]

I'd like to try it too.  I even watched a youtube video on how to do it yourself.  Unfortunately I can't think of anyone I know who is thin and also healthy.  Every thin person I know is also sick in some way.

 

I'm not overweight and I'm healthy.  I'll send you some of mine if you like.

[Roadrunner]

Hormones play a huge role in this equation as well. If there is anybody here fighting pcos and insulin resistance, you know what I mean.

[Guest]

I'd like to try it too. I even watched a youtube video on how to do it yourself. Unfortunately I can't think of anyone I know who is thin and also healthy. Every thin person I know is also sick in some way.

 

I can't believe I'm asking this but.... Links?

 

I have several candidates in my life - lifelong thin, extremely healthy, and mature immune systems. I'm super curious because of a doctor agreed to do it for me they are the ones I'd ask for help.

 

/feeling like I have a tinfoil hat on :rofl:

[Katy]

nm

Edited July 22, 2016 by Katy

[SeaConquest]

I can't believe I'm asking this but.... Links?

 

I have several candidates in my life - lifelong thin, extremely healthy, and mature immune systems. I'm super curious because of a doctor agreed to do it for me they are the ones I'd ask for help.

 

/feeling like I have a tinfoil hat on :rofl:

 

My husband is thin and healthy. So, I can give him the go ahead on that weird scat porn then?  :drool5:

[Seasider]

and because of how the receptors respond to it in the brain - items sweetened with it aren't as satisfying.

 

eta; read labels - sugar is still sugar, processed foods still contain alot of it

This is what I was thinking of as a significant difference between HFCS and sugar.

[purplejackmama]

I didn't read the article in full, but I would say the opposite is true in my family. Plates were piled higher years ago yet various family members have a harder time controlling their weight.

Yep!! I've never seen people so obsessed with smaller portions than I have now.

[kitten18]

Interesting. My daughter just had a fecal transplant for C diff in December and the dinar had to have a healthy BMI as they said otherwise there was a risk of my daughter gaining weight.

 

Yesterday at our primary he told us about research on doing fecal transplants for overweight people using donors with low BMI and how it is working in many cases.

That is fascinating.

 

I wonder what happens to those with diabetes or insulin resistance.

Edited January 28, 2016 by kitten18

[Roadrunner]

That is fascinating.

 

I wonder what happens to those with diabetes or insulin resistance.

 

A Swedish study of 145 women found that the genes in intestinal bacteria predict diabetes more accurately than waist-to-hip ratio or body-mass index (a measure of weight relative to height).

A Chinese study of 345 people published last year found the same thing.

http://www.diabetesselfmanagement.com/blog/the-right-germs-gut-bacteria-and-diabetes/

[Katy]

nm

Edited July 22, 2016 by Katy

[Guest]

I remember that study coming across my feeds. It was big news :)

[kitten18]

Relevant portion of a fascinating article encompassing many aspects of health and disease:

Fecal microbiota transplantation broadening its application beyond intestinal disorders

 

 

"...There is compelling evidence that the intestinal microbiota is closely linked to a series of metabolic conditions. Obesity, diabetes mellitus, and metabolic syndrome are epidemic in modern society. There have been extensive investigations concerning microbiota reaction acting as a pivotal role in the pathogenesis of these endocrine diseases in animal models[51,52]. Changes in gut microbiota composition have also been reported in obese humans[53-55], with a shift in the ratio of Firmicutes and Bacteroidetes[56]. Meanwhile, increased levels of bacteria and their metabolic products were found in the plasma of obese individuals, with one likely mechanism thought to be increased intestinal permeability[57,58]. Recent studies have shown that short chain fatty acid (including butyrate) producing Clostridiales strains (Roseburia and Faecalibacterium prausnitzii) were found to be decreased in patients with type 2 diabetes mellitus, but non-butyrate producing Clostridiales and pathogens such as Clostridium clostridioforme were increased[59,60]. Vrieze et al[61] conducted a double blind, randomized controlled trial of FMT in 18 male patients with metabolic syndrome. Half of them received fecal microbiota infusion from lean male donors (allogenic group), while the other half received auto-fecal transplants (control group). The results showed that both insulin sensitivity and levels of butyrate-producing intestinal microbiota (Roseburia intestinalis and Eubacterium hallii) were markedly increased after a six-week infusion of microbiota from lean donors, while no significant changes were found in the control group[61]. In the group following allogenic gut microbiota transfer, the median rate of glucose disappearance increased from 26.2 to 45.3 μmol/kg per minute, while the median endogenous glucose production increased from 51.5% to 61.6%. Hence, it can be speculated that FMT could be developed as a potential therapeutic strategy for increasing insulin sensitivity in humans..."

Wow.

[Joyofsixreboot]

I find all this extremely interesting but I can't help but think that like everything having to do with humans it's complicated. I firmly believe that the gut but also lifestyles, refined foods, sugar, sleep patterns, food availability, heck for all I know dishwashers and probably things we haven't discovered yet affect our weight. I am a lucky one who has lost and kept weight off and I constantly wonder why.

 

Adding: from the articles I'm finding a ton of fiber seems to help gut microbiome. Just another puzzle piece.

Edited January 28, 2016 by joyofsix

[DawnM]

Did anyone listen to the podcast at the bottom of the article?

 

I am listening right now.

 

"The food is free but you have to carry your poop around in a cooler!"   :lol:

[SparklyUnicorn]

I find all this extremely interesting but I can't help but think that like everything having to do with humans it's complicated. I firmly believe that the gut but also lifestyles, refined foods, sugar, sleep patterns, food availability, heck for all I know dishwashers and probably things we haven't discovered yet affect our weight. I am a lucky one who has lost and kept weight off and I constantly wonder why.

 

Adding: from the articles I'm finding a ton of fiber seems to help gut microbiome. Just another puzzle piece.

 

Absolutely.  I don't care for the holier than thou attitude or "it's simple people just eat too much" because it's really not simple.  For one thing, a person cannot stop eating.  So if a person has any sort of issue with food they have to face their issue every day and deal with it every day.  There is no out of sight out of mind.

 

Not to mention the freaking food fads over the years.  We went from eating regular foods for the most part to fat free everything, for example.  I had friends in college who were convinced that eating fat free anything would mean a person could not gain weight.  Yeah sure.  So they bought fat free cheese and cookies.  Yuck.  Of course that did not work.

 

I know people say stuff like just eat less.  Well what does one do if they feel hungry constantly?  Who wants to feel hungry constantly?  Hunger means something even if there is no actual need for food.  Why would a person feel hungry all the time?  KWIM?  Must be some reason why that's messed up.  But no it often is said to boil down to some failing of one's self control, personality, worth as a person, etc.  I don't agree. 

[ktgrok]

 

 

I know people say stuff like just eat less.  Well what does one do if they feel hungry constantly?  Who wants to feel hungry constantly?  Hunger means something even if there is no actual need for food.  Why would a person feel hungry all the time?  KWIM?  Must be some reason why that's messed up.  But no it often is said to boil down to some failing of one's self control, personality, worth as a person, etc.  I don't agree. 

 

Exactly. Telling a morbidly obese person to just eat in moderation is like telling a heroin addict to just use heroin moderately. There is so much more going on there. And I do think micro biome has a ton to do with it. I've seen so many people put on weight all of a sudden after say a hospitilization, people who were lean all their lives and now can't lose a pound. Something biological is going on there, yet weight is often addressed as a psychological issue. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Malnutrition is why they are hungry, and they need to figure out why. Could be overeating, could be poor choice of intake, could be lack of exercise, could be genetic variation. I will be eternally grateful to the person who told me about the MTHFR gene variations...that combined with the govt folic acid enrichment of food caused me a lot of trouble until I changed my intake to fit my body.

 

But then again there is very little help available for this.  Doctors don't tend to know squat about nutrition.  I've had family members be very ill advised by nutritionists.

 

I know what curbs my hunger, but let's just say these aren't convenience foods.  So part of my problem is just not having the dang time and energy to always eat the best foods.  This is not to say I eat cookies all day, but I'm talking I can't have some bread or a sandwich because that just leaves me feeling starved.

 

And how does lack of exercise make a person hungry?  If anything exercise would make a person hungrier.

You are saying this like it's all a no duh.  Obviously it is not a no duh otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'm definitely not malnourished either!

 

 

[DawnM]

Podcast now talking about fecal transplants.  They first tested them on mice.  

 

A 40+ woman needed a fecal transplant to deal with some microbial gut issues.  She got the donation from her teen daughter, who had a weight problem.    The transplant helped her gut but she also gained 40 pounds WITHOUT changing anything about her diet, after the study.

 

So, the conclusion is that depending on your gut issues and microbes, calories are very different.

 

This is all fascinating.

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Podcast now talking about fecal transplants.  They first tested them on mice.  

 

A 40+ woman needed a fecal transplant to deal with some microbial gut issues.  She got the donation from her teen daughter, who had a weight problem.    The transplant helped her gut but she also gained 40 pounds WITHOUT changing anything about her diet, after the study.

 

So, the conclusion is that depending on your gut issues and microbes, calories are very different.

 

This is all fascinating.

 

I don't know this sounds so bizarre though. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

That depends on the doctor and the nutritiinist. Some of them do know that the official b12 range is too low for app 10% of the population. Some know the causes of malabsorption. Etc etc. What I do know is that most people arent getting to the doctor...pop that metformin, and continue chowing down, or drinking up, is whats around me.

 

Exercise lowers ghrelin (appetite stimulant), and raises peptide YY (appetite supressor). But its real exercise, not just going from sedentary to taking an hour stroll in the neighborhood. Yes, you will be hungry later. But you will be out using calories instead of eating, and eating a normal meal at mealtime.

 

I cant have a bread or sandwich either as it makes me starved. So, I dont. The problem for me is that my body cant handle the excess folic acid that has been added in. Or maybe something else. All I know is bread without enrichment (homemade) doesnt make me hungrier, bread with enrichment does. I can eat a very small amt of enriched bread, but sandwich sized no. That says its chemical. I can control that via reducing the bread intake, or by taking more B complex to counteract the overdose. Either way, too many calories will pile on the pounds.

 

I have never in my life met a doctor with that kind of nutrition knowledge.  There are many diabetics in my family.  NONE of them ever controlled their diabetes by following the advice of any dietitian.  Stuff they tell my sister is so incredibly ridiculous I don't even want to hear the details anymore. 

 

I've been eating lower carb for years.  So far so good.  But I definitely could stand to lose some weight.

 

[Laura Corin]

 

And how does lack of exercise make a person hungry?  If anything exercise would make a person hungrier.

 

 

Do you think that it depends on what people experience as hunger (forgive me, I just came back from a philosophy lecture on the nature of stuff and experience)?  Is hunger only a gnawing in your stomach?  Or it is a feeling of anxiety or desperation that can be satisfied by either food or exercise, which might have similar chemical effects in the brain?  When people say they are hungry, what do they mean?  Because I call both the stomach feeling and the anxiety feeling hunger.