WWYD: Dual Credit Class Movie

[Jenny in Florida]

But then where is the line? A snuff film? Porn? I agree that the student should be able to talk to the professor directly, and if mom needs to be involved maybe the student isn't ready. But to say that you have to debase yourself and expose yourself to things you find repulsive simply to obtain a degree in higher education is ridiculous. 

 

You absolutely do not have to check your morals or your brain, but having personal morals and a brain does not excuse you from completing the work required for a particular class. You don't have to agree with it. You don't have to like or approve of the characters or their actions. You do have to engage with it as much as is required to participate in the class.

 

And if you don't like the curriculum at this particular college, there are plenty of other options. I'm fairly certain that a private college with an avowedly religious/conservative mission would not have its professors show this film. A person who is so offended and upset by this kind of material that he or she cannot/will not even view the film may be in the wrong school.

[Jenny in Florida]

So now rape is art? I'm pretty sure there are ways to discuss rape and other societal topics without having to watch it.

 

Of course rape is not art.

 

However, pieces of art -- including film, books, music, ballet, theatre, etc. -- may certainly depict and deal with the subject of rape. Again, this isn't new. I read books in college 30 years ago that dealt with rape and violence of all kinds. Was it disturbing? Of course, but it was also valuable.

[Jenny in Florida]

I disagree with this. For one, if it's a public school, and I'm paying taxes towards it, you're darn skippy I should be able to attend rather than pay to go to a "conservative" college. And my professor should be adult enough to have a conversation about a moral objection to this film and deal with alternative assignments. Just because I don't want to watch rape or other vile things I'm suddenly a conservative Christian? What if I'm a tax paying liberal? Does my opinion count then?

Two, it's making an awful big assumption that just because a professor assigns it it MUST have some redeeming value. The level of idiocy running in universities these days is no less than in the general population. And just because one has a PhD doesn't mean his or her judgment is the be all end all. I'm sorry but I don't think you need to roll over and watch disturbing things under the flag of art, openness, or higher education. Sometimes classes are required for degrees that aren't easily replaced. Someone shouldn't have to change schools or degree plans over a graphic film. And films aren't the same as books. Having to watch something like this, and in mixed company.....that's nothing to be ashamed of having an issue with.

 

No one said anyone "had to" change schools. 

 

Look, we all make compromises and judgment calls all day long. I didn't like or feel comfortable with everything I was assigned in college. I didn't think every bit of assigned reading or viewing or whatever was great. Sometimes, I was baffled by why a professor assigned a particular piece. 

 

But the deal is that one goes to college to learn. And, in order to protect a professor's academic freedom from being curtailed by every student (or parent) who has a problem with a given assignment, we give professors pretty wide latitude to choose materials as they see fit. (Honestly, considering some of the books I've seen being objected to recently, I can see how it could pretty quickly become impossible to assign ANYTHING if every student actually got a say.) So, I might have no issue with this particular film but be offended or bothered by something I am assigned to watch or read in another class, while another person might be fine with what bothers me but be terribly offended by this film. The great thing about college is that you have choices: If you look at the syllabus and realize this professor's choices are too far outside what you consider acceptable, take a different class or go to a different school. 

 

And if my schedule or my budget or my children's naptime or whatever make this class the best possible option, then maybe, as a reasonable adult, I'm going to have to figure out a way to handle this challenge to my morals in pursuit of the larger goal. And I  might even find it makes me a stronger or more thoughtful person if I do it right.

[Jenny in Florida]

But I guess that's part of my sticking point. Watching a movie in class is a whole different experience than reading a book alone. On your own time. Being able to process it, churn it and discuss it. There is such a huge difference in the mediums......movies can achieve a level of graphicness (is that a word) that a book would be hard pressed to do.

 

Again: No one is forced to take this particular class. If she really feels that strongly about not watching a movie, she can drop the class. But I would really expect a reasonble and mature adult -- or someone who signed on to function in that environment -- to be able to handle this challenge. 

[Reefgazer]

I just wanted to address the bold.  Where is the line in this situation between a professor deciding what the content of her class will be and a student, who is not an expert in the subject, deciding what the content will be?  How far should moral outrage go in excusing someone from learning content that the professor thinks is necessary?  Should a young Earth creationist be excused from learning about evolution in biology class?  Should a veterinary student be excused from dissections because they have a moral objection to them?  Should a medical student be excused from learning about birth control options if they are Catholic and do not believe in artificial BC?  Is homosexuality off-limits in sociology if a student believes it is immoral?  Should an Islamic student be excused from a class where images of Allah are flashed on the screen?  I teach at a local college, and I have seen some astounding cases of idiocy running wild.  But that still doesn't mean the inmates should be running the asylum or that students should be dictating the content of their classes.

I disagree with this. For one, if it's a public school, and I'm paying taxes towards it, you're darn skippy I should be able to attend rather than pay to go to a "conservative" college. And my professor should be adult enough to have a conversation about a moral objection to this film and deal with alternative assignments. Just because I don't want to watch rape or other vile things I'm suddenly a conservative Christian? What if I'm a tax paying liberal? Does my opinion count then?
Two, it's making an awful big assumption that just because a professor assigns it it MUST have some redeeming value. The level of idiocy running in universities these days is no less than in the general population. And just because one has a PhD doesn't mean his or her judgment is the be all end all. I'm sorry but I don't think you need to roll over and watch disturbing things under the flag of art, openness, or higher education. Sometimes classes are required for degrees that aren't easily replaced. Someone shouldn't have to change schools or degree plans over a graphic film. And films aren't the same as books. Having to watch something like this, and in mixed company.....that's nothing to be ashamed of having an issue with.

 

Edited January 28, 2016 by reefgazer

[chiguirre]

What if the movie wasn't dealing with sex, but with explicit racism, child molestation or something else?

In this movie, rape is a weapon used to persecute someone perceived as being Jewish, so it does deal with prejudice. It also deals with the last vestiges of medievalism in the form of the Spanish Inquisition and contrasts them with the rise of liberty in France during the revolution.

[Guest2]

Op, I hope you got some useful answers. I am afraid I derailed your thread with my response when I was shocked at the content of the movie. Whatever you decide, I think while your daughter is a student this semester,she may be able to access syallabi for other classes and professors. At our school,the general public can do a class search, but can't access the syllabi, only students.

 

We started making a binder of professors teaching courses DD needed,their syllabi and reviews through rate my professor and my edu. I like to check their curriculm vitae. Often they have papers published and you can look for those. We have added recommendations from other students and ask homeschool groups. The same professors don't teach each semester, but often they do.

 

There are some great and sadly also horrific instructors/professors. You can also clep some of the silly humanities or teach a few AP courses youself after getting approval. It isn't easy, but you can navigate the system. You don't have to compromise values to reach your goal. There are ways. Most of this nonsense is over by grad school, but it is a good thing to teach your student to be vigilant.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Silver Brook

[Haiku]

But to say a student shouldn't even be able to question the need for it, pretty much defeats the purpose of college in the first place in my eyes.

 

Did anyone say this? I know that I said the student would certainly be within her rights to speak to the professor but that it's not appropriate for Mom to do it for her and that a film (or other material) shouldn't be deemed inappropriate based on the student's (younger than college) age or the mother's dislike of the material.

 

The film sounds awful to me, personally. Another film I watched, intensely disliked, and regret seeing is Pan's Labyrinth. Were I confronted with a necessity to watch these films in a class, I would have several options: speak to the professor, skip the class, close my eyes during the most objectionable parts, or watch them anyway. No one is saying this student has no options. We are discussing the idea that professors should have the freedom to assign the material they feel works best for their class and not have to take individual student preferences into account in doing so. That's entirely different than saying a student should be forced to watch something with no recourse.

[Bluegoat]

I do not feel that it should be the goal to make sure that students are comfortable all the time. A college education should expand your horizons and challenge you. I'm particularly worried about all the "trigger warnings" and students getting excused from classes and professors being challenged and disciplined for telling students things that the students might not like/feel uncomfortable with/disagree with. It is becoming a real problem in higher education, and I worry that academic freedom is being eroded in the service of making sure no one is ever offended or uncomfortable.

 

College is not the time to wrap yourself in the mantle of comfort unless, I guess, you choose a narrowly focused religious college whose beliefs you are in full agreement with.

 

Yes, this.

 

Now, university profs are as falliable as the next peerson, and sometimes they can make choices based on being shocking or faddish.  Sometimes shocking things might even be trendy and universities at the moment like that.  That is all bad, because it isn't really good for learning.  I even think that with very graphic material, people preparing courses should consider that it could be difficult for people to watch, and a text might well be more informative and less disturbing.  Movies can be an easy way out of work.

 

But there are very good reasons to give them a lot of freedom in preparing their syllabus, and an important part of university education is having new, and sometimes uncomfortable, ideas.  Kids or adults who can't manage that should perhaps be doing something else.

[Jane Elliot]

 teach a few AP courses youself after getting approval

 

I really liked your entire post, Silver Brook, -- excellent suggestions for navigating CC. I just wanted to add to this one bit of information. When it comes to granting credit, the colleges we've dealt with never cared if the AP course was approved or not; they only cared about the score on the exam. I never bothered with approval, and it was never a problem. On the transcript I put, for example, "United States History with AP exam" and listed the scores at the bottom instead of putting "AP United States History." I'm not trying to split hairs, but this makes AP a lot easier and more accessible if you're just looking for credit.

 

eta: I have seven children graduated and have used this procedure for seven different AP exams.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Jane Elliot

[charlotteb]

Wow, I never imagined that this post would turn into this. I usually get only a few responses to my questions. Now I made a "hot topic". I feel very popular now, LOL!

 

Thanks to everyone who gave their opinion. While I don't agree with all of them, its great to see the varying viewpoints. For my family, we try to hold things to a very high moral standard. "Oh be careful little eyes what you see" :) I myself would never watch the movie "Goya's Ghost" after reading the reviews, so I am certainly not comfortable having my daughter watch it. Our conclusion is to have her skip class that day. According to the syllabus, there isn't any required work to go along with the movie- just watching it in class and discussing. The syllabus does have a makeup assignment so we will have her do it in case it hurts her grade to miss the discussion. In the future, I will be more selective in the courses I have my children take as dual credit. I appreciate those of you who recommended which classes we should avoid so as not run into this problem again.

 

You guys are great! Thanks so much.