Why Can't My Child Understand My "Nice" Voice?

[BooksandBoys]

We finally pulled some diagnoses a couple of months ago for our older two boys. DS1 is nearly 8 and diagnosed with ASD (level 1) severe ADHD, dyspraxia, gifted, and probably has dysgraphia (they don't diagnose that here until kids are at least 8). 

 

I suspect that I know the answer to my question, but I want to be wrong.

 

I don't think DS1 has ever been able to understand that someone can be serious/expect obedience/be correcting him/be explaining something when that person uses their "nice" voice or teasing voice (he also almost never understands "The Look," but I'm pretty sure that is an ASD thing, so I'm not asking about that). If I do not use my rather intense voice, he doesn't take me seriously. I've been struggling with this since his toddlerhood, but I don't think I realized exactly what I was dealing with until he was about 5, because at that point I had a younger child in toddlerhood who did understand my nice voice.

 

With DS2 and DS3, I can say in a soft tone, "It's not kind to hit your brother. Please be a kind boy and don't hit your brother," and the child will understand and comply (well, DS2 tends toward oppositional behavior, so he may not actually obey, but he understands). But, DS1 would rarely modify that behavior with such a soft tone and gentle wording. I need to say, in an intense (not yelling, just intense) voice, "Do not hit your brother. Stop. Do not hit your brother. Stop. Do not hit your brother," in order to get him to comply.

 

I've tried only using a nice voice for months on end in experiment. No change. I've had to teach his friends' parents and coaches how to speak to him so that he will cooperate (more often). 

 

I hate this. I feel (and have felt for years) like a mean mom because I can't speak the way I want to speak in my home. I can't tease my child and get compliance. I can't ask nicely for something and expect it to be done. Is this an ASD/ADHD thing, or have I just failed to teach him? 

 

If you have dealt with this, do you have any suggestions for me? Ways to help him learn to respond to softer tones? Ways to help me accept my reality? Thanks!

[Incognito]

..

Edited January 25, 2016 by Incognito

[PeterPan]

I'm just kinda curious, what sport is this coach coaching and how does he/she feel about getting this input?  My ds is in gymnastics, and his coach is a pretty firm fellow.  If the dc isn't having expected behavior in that, when the coach is a very experienced coach, I'm going to wonder about whether this sport is a good fit (like maybe he's not engaged) and whether this is a response that occurs to ALL people or some people, whether it's connected to when he's engaged or in a non-preferred activity.

 

Behavior is hard.  It just is.  I don't think you have to yell and be gruff to get where you need to be, because the behaviorist I brought in is not gruff/rough/loud or anything of the sort AT ALL.  But I can guarantee you she doesn't use as many words as you did in what you just described.  She just says a few, carefully chosen words.  And she spent time letting him let her into his world, not really demanding it or forcing it.

 

Do you have the option to bring in a behaviorist?  Do you want books?  What help do you want?  

 

Does he connect with the activities he's enrolled in?  Is he engaged?

 

Have you had his hearing checked?  I mean, not to state the obvious, but it's one of those things to check.

 

What kind of behavior are you getting, and what are the antecedents?  Does he have overall body dyspraxia or praxis of speech (which in some countries is called dyspraxia) or both?  To what degree is that affecting his ability to participate in these classes?  What is his ability to self-advocate and self-regulate?  

 

I keep my ds in some sports classes, like swim lessons, that are aimed at preschoolers.  For him, it's just a better fit.  Because he has some mild motor planning issues and the social delays and whatnot of the ASD, he just fits in better in preschool classes.  For him, I have moved him up levels where he has worked through the preschool and lower level stuff.  So like in swimming he does a preschool class two days a week and agemates only one day a week.  For gymnastics I did something similar, keeping him in the lower level classes as long as possible.  The environment is more play-oriented, which fit his maturity level.  Only since he turned 7 was I able to drop those playbased gymnastics classes and move him exclusively to team.  He does well there now, but when he first started the preteam/team sequence it was very overwhelming to him, just very serious and hard, something he wasn't emotionally ready for.  He was more at the I want to run around and crash into things and feel good stage.  He's only *just* getting the idea that it might be fun to get good at something.  Competition itself is largely lost on him.  The coach tries to play it up.

 

Behavior is hard.  Like you, I try to be very measured, sort of Mother Teresa.  It's a really hard thing, because with other kids tone alone gets you there.  With these kids, things are so much more COMPLEX.  Like the behavior might have an antecedent in dysregulation.  Or it might have been preceded by communication problems.  The sensory might be aggravating his response.  When that sensory is flipping out and he's really dysregulated, a touch, too much talking, these things can push him over simply because it's MORE sensory on top off already dysregulated sensory.  So then less words are actually more, kwim?  It's all in the antecedents.

 

There are some really good books on logging your ABCs.  (antecedent, behavior, consequence)  I've done some behavior logging like that and it helped me.  The Prizant webinars Lecka linked recently are AMAZING, definitely worth your time.  I'm tryign to think of the name of the behavior logging book.  I think I got it through the library.  It was good.  I just keep trying to read widely, because each book seems to give me a few more pieces.  Right now Joyce Show's book is really good for me.  

 

And this will sound screwy, but right now the #1 thing I'm most hopeful about improving my ds' behavior is working on regulation.  I'm realizing that a LOT of his behavior challenges were either due to dysregulation (because with every SLD, EVERYTHING is challenging) and transition.  Transitions I don't know how to improve yet.  I mean, we have little ideas, but nothing like wow magical.  But the dysregulation or just staying more regulated, that turns out to be relatively easy!  The school OT says well duh you just do 5 min sensory breaks after every 15-20 min of school work.  Then you can read Zones of Reg and think in terms of like realizing where he's at throughout the day, teaching him tools, giving him retreats.  But really, the more I can just keep him STABLE, the better the chance he has of being able to comply.

 

Engagement is totally different.  Like if he's not engaged, then maybe it's time for a different activity?  So far I've been pretty lucky, in that ds does engage with the things I've put him in.  But it could still be a question.  Or behavior log and see what's going on.  Maybe there's a pattern you'll find.  Like he's doing fine till it gets into motor planning he can't do.  Or he's not engaging with coaches who demonstrate but can't explain.  Or he's zoning out where there is background noise and engaging when it's one on one or quiet.  My ds has so much movement, I would never expect him to participate in something with a lot of waiting.  In fact, his gymnastics coach, who is fabulous, sternly warned me about this.  So maybe there will be patterns like that.

 

What I've had to do with hitting is have a firm no tolerance, go to your quiet place to calm down policy.  So it's like you hurt the dog, go to your quiet place to calm down.  You hurt your sister, go to your quiet place to calm down.  So we may not have the impulsivity nailed, but we at least have something that ends it, that I require to end it.  Then, when they're separated and things are calm, then we can go through it with words.  But really, it's only recently that he has been able to apologize with a prompt.  He's still not getting it or onboard or sincere, mercy.  To me though I was pragmatic.  I may not be able to help you understand yet, but you can obey and go to your quiet place.

 

And you don't really just pull the "go to your quiet place" card out of the blue in that moment, kwim?  You have to develop the space together (we have one upstairs, one downstairs), talk about what it's for, set it up with soft and interesting things for sensory, practice using it, and PRAISE him using it.  So I didn't really start that till after he had had some defined spaces for a while.  I'd catch him going in and praise him like Oh, I'm so proud of you for using your space!  And he quickly figured out that was where he wanted to go.  So I'm not talking punitive but more we've practiced this, this is our tool, and if we're not in control and we're hurting people (for whatever reason), then let's use our tool and go to a place that helps us get back in control.  

 

Honestly, if he's not understanding your words, stop using them.  Go entirely to visuals.  I use the visual schedules and all sorts of things from Christine Reeve's Autism Classroom News website and TPT store.  Her stuff is GREAT and very affordable.  So now, when we're frustrated, we use our if/then chart.  It started with me doing it, but now HE uses it to communicate.  He has speech, but there's just this CLARITY that comes when you go visual.  You can try it.  Like make break cards and let him express with that.  For us it removes so much frustration and confusion and just lets us communicate clearly.  And sometimes when he's not calm, I'll take him to the notebook and show him the page of sensory options and say/point to choose 1.  That works for us.  Because sometimes you get so whatever that it's better to use visual than to use words and argue.  

 

Schedules, same deal, we use visuals.  And I think you might find, as you behavior log, that there are antecedents to this behavior that you can get in the middle of.  So like if he's overwhelmed and moving from green (ready to learn) to yellow zone, you might decide ok, I know this subject does that to him.  I'm going to break it in half and do some sensory inbetween to keep him stable and regulated.  And you can SHOW that with the visual schedule!  So then you're communicating, you're staying stable, and instead of solving problems with means you're actually PREVENTING them with the tools.  Visual schedules, more sensory and things to keep him stable.  That's what is working here.

 

Anyways, those things are working here for us.  And I can't really make it all perfect.  Like he really does have this thing that he obeys his father and not me.  It's just like written in some circuitry in his head, along with all the other things he mixes up.  He really thinks that order is determined by size, that Daddy is biggest so he obeys and everyone else are just SERFS, that I should obey him if anything, on and on.  And he's just confused.  That's social.  And I really think we'll get there.  But it's totally true that right now he only seems to comply with me because it gets him what he wants.  But until I can get him understanding more, that's all I've got, kwim?  The behaviorist will have more tools, I'm sure.  So far she has talked about choice terminology.  So if we're going to say something, then let's use that.  Like "ds, are you making a GOOD CHOICE?" when he does something.  Or praising him when he makes a good choice.  Because in his world sometimes he thinks of it as there WAS NO choice.  To move to a simple way of quanitifying that that is helpful.  

 

So I don't want it to sound like I've got it nailed, because I don't.  Some things are going to take some time, sigh.  

 

As far as teachers, ds only runs over them if they're weak.  I must be really blessed or something, because he has only had fabulous teachers.  They're not loud, not any of them, but they wait for attention and really seem to connect with him.  I try to hook him up with veteran teachers, not novices, and I watch very carefully to make sure he's having expected behavior.  He definitely does better with no waiting, clear expections, and a class that is just clip, clip, very well-managed.  

 

Have you ever looked into RDI?  There's a book, and although the RDI people swear you can't do it without the book, reality is the book is quite good.  It would build some of that connection with you two.  I try to do lots of K'nex with him for the same reason, to build that bond.  Floortime has suggestions on how to approach that.  Anyways, I try to make sure our relationship has that dynamic and isn't all just doing stuff he's disabled in.

Edited January 25, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Innisfree]

I have a dd with ASD. Yes, I think this is an ASD thing.

 

Have you tried explicitly teaching him that when you ask in a nice voice, you still expect obedience? This is what we have done. "When I say ''would you please set the table, Child,' I'm just asking politely. It is a polite command, but it is still a command, and it means you need to set the table now."

 

I would expect to need a learning period, when you repeat this explanation in various situations, and if transitions are a problem give adequate warning ahead of time as usual.

 

I would not use a teasing voice. I think that's just too confusing.

 

I hope that helps!

[Lecka]

I would consider using visuals together with words at times that he consistently doesn't respond to words. I would hope for the visuals to be obvious to him and help him to clue in to your softer tones and nicer tones.

 

Asking in a jokey way -- at this point I would reserve for only certain times. I was just given advice for my son, that for something similar, have a short practice session, tell him it is a practice session to see if he can listen and understand you, then wrap it up and give feedback. You could try it with a soft voice too. Soft might be better, bc teasing is probably harder than soft.

 

It was a newer-ish suggestion to me, so I like it a lot right now.

 

I also have a thought -- I have been told in the past, say it once and then follow through. For some things. If you say it multiple times it may lead to him tuning you out until you get to the point where you do follow through. But if it is not registering to him -- I always get advice to use a visual. Or first go to his eye level and establish that he is going to hear what I say, and only then say it.

 

I think there are a lot of things that could help, and it is worth it to keep trying, I am sure you will see some improvement down the road.

 

I think there are a lot of places there could be a breakdown, though. Did he hear you. Did he understand you. Can he change what he is doing easily.

 

For some things - you can google "instructional control autism" and get some ideas. But that will expect you to be addressing things like using a visual or establishing that you are close enough and at his eye level before you speak to him and things like that. If it doesn't work then problem-solving is to add supports I think. The instructional control is more for if he ignore you and it is not just bc there is some barrier making it hard for him to listen, understand, or act.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Lecka

[Cosmos]

With DS2 and DS3, I can say in a soft tone, "It's not kind to hit your brother. Please be a kind boy and don't hit your brother," and the child will understand and comply (well, DS2 tends toward oppositional behavior, so he may not actually obey, but he understands).

 

But, DS1 would rarely modify that behavior with such a soft tone and gentle wording. I need to say, in an intense (not yelling, just intense) voice, "Do not hit your brother. Stop. Do not hit your brother. Stop. Do not hit your brother," in order to get him to comply.

 

What stands out to me is that the words you are using in these examples are very different. "Do not hit your brother" and "stop" versus "please be kind" and "it's not nice to hit". Maybe it's the words making the difference rather than the voice. Have you tried using the direct words but without the intense voice?

 

It sounds like you've already really explored this and I don't have a lot experience with ASD, so please forgive my intrusion into the conversation. I just thought I would mention what I noticed on the small chance that it might be helpful for you.

 

I do understand your frustration. Not the same situation but I know the feeling of not being able to parent the way I wanted to because it didn't work for my child.

[geodob]

You wrote that: "he also almost never understands "The Look,"

 

But how this 'understanding' works in the brain?

Is with the use of what is termed as the brain's 'Mirror Process'?

 

As an example of this?

When you observe someone 'smiling'?

This 'mirror process', mirrors the smile in your own brain.

So that you actually experience their smile, as if you were smiling.

 

It is this 'mirror process', that is the foundation of our empathy and understanding of the 'other'.

Where we don't logically interpret their expression ?

Rather their expression is mirrored in our brain, as if we were expressing it.

So that when we hear a 'nice voice', or 'teasing voice'?

This is automatically mirrored with our own  'nice voice', or 'teasing voice'.

 

So that we actually experience the expression of the other.

When we see a sad face, we feel the sadness.

When hear a particular 'tone of voice'?

We hear it as our own tone of voice.

 

But with ASD and Autism, their is problem with this 'mirror process'?

So rather than not 'understanding' a look or tone of voice?
They don't 'feel' the look or tone of voice.

 

Though the basic way to address this?

Is to use 'role play'.

For example, with a 'teasing voice'?

He would observe some others using a 'teasing voice'?

Then to practice imitating them.

So that when they hear a 'teasing voice'?

They have a memory of a 'teasing voice', to associate it with.

 

Having observed people saying something in a 'soft tone', and imitating them?

He is then able to recognize when people use it.

[albeto.]

One game we played to help with this was "warmer / colder" with facial expressions. We'd hide an object somewhere in the living room while ds waited elsewhere, and he had to guess where. We'd give him clues, like saying "you're getting warmer!" when he got closer, and "you're getting colder," when he got further away. The only thing was, we did it with facial expressions, not words. We'd change the verbal clue with a facial one. This was one way in which he learned to reference our faces as communicating pertinent information. We started with "happy / sad," and eventually, over time, got to such distinctions as "sad / bored" or "excited / surprised." You might do it with voices, too ("nice / stern" by using the same phrase but a different voice).

 

We got this idea through RDI. 

[kbutton]

I have a dd with ASD. Yes, I think this is an ASD thing.

 

Have you tried explicitly teaching him that when you ask in a nice voice, you still expect obedience? This is what we have done. "When I say ''would you please set the table, Child,' I'm just asking politely. It is a polite command, but it is still a command, and it means you need to set the table now."

 

I would expect to need a learning period, when you repeat this explanation in various situations, and if transitions are a problem give adequate warning ahead of time as usual.

 

I would not use a teasing voice. I think that's just too confusing.

 

I hope that helps!

 

 

What stands out to me is that the words you are using in these examples are very different. "Do not hit your brother" and "stop" versus "please be kind" and "it's not nice to hit". Maybe it's the words making the difference rather than the voice. Have you tried using the direct words but without the intense voice?

 

It sounds like you've already really explored this and I don't have a lot experience with ASD, so please forgive my intrusion into the conversation. I just thought I would mention what I noticed on the small chance that it might be helpful for you.

 

I do understand your frustration. Not the same situation but I know the feeling of not being able to parent the way I wanted to because it didn't work for my child.

 

 

One game we played to help with this was "warmer / colder" with facial expressions. We'd hide an object somewhere in the living room while ds waited elsewhere, and he had to guess where. We'd give him clues, like saying "you're getting warmer!" when he got closer, and "you're getting colder," when he got further away. The only thing was, we did it with facial expressions, not words. We'd change the verbal clue with a facial one. This was one way in which he learned to reference our faces as communicating pertinent information. We started with "happy / sad," and eventually, over time, got to such distinctions as "sad / bored" or "excited / surprised." You might do it with voices, too ("nice / stern" by using the same phrase but a different voice).

 

We got this idea through RDI. 

 

Mom of a 2e kiddo with ASD as well, and we've used all of these approaches. We had a late diagnosis, and it was pretty profound to realize that my kiddo with the sky-high vocabulary has two words for emotions and voices: good and bad. Okay, four words: positive and negative worked as well. 

 

The last suggestion is one that our behaviorist used with him. She had a whole slew of other activities as well. They worked on face cards, emotion words, all kinds of things. 

 

I was not sure what kind of help we'd get from a behaviorist with our son's profile and age, but it's been very helpful for us to have her. She actually implements his social skills tutoring, but she brings in behavioral techniques. He doesn't need all out ABA, but many of the principles apply well. I have also heard good things about RDI.

 

It is frustrating to not be able to talk to your child without having to think things through, but it's a learning curve. I think you will get used to it and find things about it that are beneficial and good. I was very happy to find out that hyperbole connects really well to my child. Not dramatic stuff, but hyperbole. It won't work for all kids with ASD, but it works for him. The best part? I have been teased mercilessly all my life for using hyperbole, and then it turns out to be a great communication tool for him. It was a gift from God to realize that I could use that with him.

 

You will find some fun things about this kind of parenting too, but it will be strange for a bit with a new diagnosis. Hang in there!  :grouphug:

[PeterPan]

One game we played to help with this was "warmer / colder" with facial expressions. We'd hide an object somewhere in the living room while ds waited elsewhere, and he had to guess where. We'd give him clues, like saying "you're getting warmer!" when he got closer, and "you're getting colder," when he got further away. The only thing was, we did it with facial expressions, not words. We'd change the verbal clue with a facial one. This was one way in which he learned to reference our faces as communicating pertinent information. We started with "happy / sad," and eventually, over time, got to such distinctions as "sad / bored" or "excited / surprised." You might do it with voices, too ("nice / stern" by using the same phrase but a different voice).

 

We got this idea through RDI. 

Ooo, love that!!  I finally got the RDI books and just haven't had a chance to start the exercises yet.  Joyce Show talks about them in her very fabulous book also, listing a few of her favorites.  

 

I was reading more of the Joyce Show book this morning, and she says we need to be "consistently persistent," that emotional memory kicks in and getting away with things results in them concluding that for you they don't have to follow through, that it's not consistently expected.  I liked that phrase "consistently persistent."  It was in her chapter on initiation and how the basal ganglia in our brains affect our ability to initiate an action.  Her book is GREAT STUFF.  

Edited January 25, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Carol in Cal.]

I don't have a child with that issue, but have had friends who have.

What I have done that has worked really well with those kids is to tell them what to do instead, hence taking their mind off what they are doing that I don't want them to do.

 

So, for instance, 5YO kid is walking toward the moving cars area of the school parking lot, and no one can reach him--he's about to walk into traffic, albeit slow traffic.  People are yelling at him to stop, and he is getting agitated.  I say his name and say, "Move backwards three steps."  He does, and that buys the time to get to him.  Why?  Because I got his attention and put his brain onto a different channel.  

 

Now, I'm aware that to a large extent as an outsider I have a very different relationship with him than his family does--but we were good friends with this family and he and I saw each other 5-6 days per week, so I was very familiar to him.  But again, not family.

 

In the case of 'stop hitting your brother', I would say, "Step back toward me."  Then I would get down at his level, look him right in the eye (whether he looked back or not, I wouldn't make him do that), and say, "People are special.  We don't hit people.  We HUG people."  Then I would hug him.  (He liked to be hugged, and it calmed him. Not all kids are like that.  Know your own kid.)  "You need to help your brother feel better, because you hurt him.  What can you do that would make him feel better?"  (If he didn't know, I would say, Tell him that you are sorry and ask him if you can hug him.)  After that, for a while I would be looking out for times when he might escalate toward hitting, and prevent this by physically getting between them.  I would say, "People are special.  We don't hit people.  We HUG people."  And if he tried anyway, I would remove him from the room and say, "I will not let you hit anyone.  Everyone needs to be safe from hitting.  People are special.  We don't hit people.  We HUG people."  

 

The keys, IME, were--short sentences, repetitive concepts, watchful intervention/prevention, and a quiet voice but plenty of follow through.  Oh, and also warmth.  This kid knew that I loved him.  

 

Anyway, I know it's exhausting.  I know that it takes forever before they start to learn self-control.  I know it's different for a parent.  But these techniques might be good tools in your toolbox.

 

 

Edited January 25, 2016 by Carol in Cal.

[BooksandBoys]

I'm just kinda curious, what sport is this coach coaching and how does he/she feel about getting this input?  My ds is in gymnastics, and his coach is a pretty firm fellow.  If the dc isn't having expected behavior in that, when the coach is a very experienced coach, I'm going to wonder about whether this sport is a good fit (like maybe he's not engaged) and whether this is a response that occurs to ALL people or some people, whether it's connected to when he's engaged or in a non-preferred activity.

This was more a past problem than a current one. We've learned to spend extra for experienced coaches rather than using the local rec center. DS1's preferred sport is skiing, and those coaches are (generally) excellent, very firm and good at modifying language to help kids succeed. I'm thankful for this.

 

Behavior is hard.  It just is.  I don't think you have to yell and be gruff to get where you need to be, because the behaviorist I brought in is not gruff/rough/loud or anything of the sort AT ALL.  But I can guarantee you she doesn't use as many words as you did in what you just described.  She just says a few, carefully chosen words.  And she spent time letting him let her into his world, not really demanding it or forcing it. 

 

Do you have the option to bring in a behaviorist?  Do you want books?  What help do you want?  

At this point, I want books and BTDT advice. We're working on figuring out what resources are available to him (including behaviorists) and will be adding those as quickly as possible.

 

Does he connect with the activities he's enrolled in?  Is he engaged? 

He loves skiing and is very engaged. He's usually well engaged in swimming, but that does vary. We gave up on martial arts because his attention challenges made it impossible for him to attend to the class even though he wanted to.

 

Have you had his hearing checked?  I mean, not to state the obvious, but it's one of those things to check.

Hearing is excellent. We intend to have an auditory processing evaluation soon because we suspect CAPD.

 

What kind of behavior are you getting, and what are the antecedents?  Does he have overall body dyspraxia or praxis of speech (which in some countries is called dyspraxia) or both?  To what degree is that affecting his ability to participate in these classes?  What is his ability to self-advocate and self-regulate?  

Body dyspraxia. Very challenged in motor planning. I suspect that this is a big part of my challenge with him and where I'm not using the right words. One of the later replies had a great idea that I can't wait to implement about telling what to do INSTEAD. I think the motor planning may be a big factor in this issue I'm having with the way I have to speak. Hmm...processing.Self-advocating and self-regulating is poor. He perseverates when overwhelmed or having a self-regulation issue (temperature, hunger), rather than expressing the problem. We're working on this and I think it will be a big focus in therapy.

 

I keep my ds in some sports classes, like swim lessons, that are aimed at preschoolers.  For him, it's just a better fit.  Because he has some mild motor planning issues and the social delays and whatnot of the ASD, he just fits in better in preschool classes.  For him, I have moved him up levels where he has worked through the preschool and lower level stuff.  So like in swimming he does a preschool class two days a week and agemates only one day a week.  For gymnastics I did something similar, keeping him in the lower level classes as long as possible.  The environment is more play-oriented, which fit his maturity level.  Only since he turned 7 was I able to drop those playbased gymnastics classes and move him exclusively to team.  He does well there now, but when he first started the preteam/team sequence it was very overwhelming to him, just very serious and hard, something he wasn't emotionally ready for.  He was more at the I want to run around and crash into things and feel good stage.  He's only *just* getting the idea that it might be fun to get good at something.  Competition itself is largely lost on him.  The coach tries to play it up.

 

Behavior is hard.  Like you, I try to be very measured, sort of Mother Teresa.  It's a really hard thing, because with other kids tone alone gets you there.  With these kids, things are so much more COMPLEX.  Like the behavior might have an antecedent in dysregulation.  Or it might have been preceded by communication problems.  The sensory might be aggravating his response.  When that sensory is flipping out and he's really dysregulated, a touch, too much talking, these things can push him over simply because it's MORE sensory on top off already dysregulated sensory.  So then less words are actually more, kwim?  It's all in the antecedents.

Yes, I KWYM. I definitely have a long way to go in learning to use fewer words.

 

There are some really good books on logging your ABCs.  (antecedent, behavior, consequence)  I've done some behavior logging like that and it helped me.  The Prizant webinars Lecka linked recently are AMAZING, definitely worth your time.  I'm tryign to think of the name of the behavior logging book.  I think I got it through the library.  It was good.  I just keep trying to read widely, because each book seems to give me a few more pieces.  Right now Joyce Show's book is really good for me.  Thanks.

 

And this will sound screwy, but right now the #1 thing I'm most hopeful about improving my ds' behavior is working on regulation.  I'm realizing that a LOT of his behavior challenges were either due to dysregulation (because with every SLD, EVERYTHING is challenging) and transition.  Transitions I don't know how to improve yet.  I mean, we have little ideas, but nothing like wow magical.  But the dysregulation or just staying more regulated, that turns out to be relatively easy!  The school OT says well duh you just do 5 min sensory breaks after every 15-20 min of school work.  Then you can read Zones of Reg and think in terms of like realizing where he's at throughout the day, teaching him tools, giving him retreats.  But really, the more I can just keep him STABLE, the better the chance he has of being able to comply.

 

Engagement is totally different.  Like if he's not engaged, then maybe it's time for a different activity?  So far I've been pretty lucky, in that ds does engage with the things I've put him in.  But it could still be a question.  Or behavior log and see what's going on.  Maybe there's a pattern you'll find.  Like he's doing fine till it gets into motor planning he can't do.  Or he's not engaging with coaches who demonstrate but can't explain.  Or he's zoning out where there is background noise and engaging when it's one on one or quiet.  My ds has so much movement, I would never expect him to participate in something with a lot of waiting.  In fact, his gymnastics coach, who is fabulous, sternly warned me about this.  So maybe there will be patterns like that.

 

What I've had to do with hitting is have a firm no tolerance, go to your quiet place to calm down policy.  So it's like you hurt the dog, go to your quiet place to calm down.  You hurt your sister, go to your quiet place to calm down.  So we may not have the impulsivity nailed, but we at least have something that ends it, that I require to end it.  Then, when they're separated and things are calm, then we can go through it with words.  But really, it's only recently that he has been able to apologize with a prompt.  He's still not getting it or onboard or sincere, mercy.  To me though I was pragmatic.  I may not be able to help you understand yet, but you can obey and go to your quiet place. 

 

And you don't really just pull the "go to your quiet place" card out of the blue in that moment, kwim?  You have to develop the space together (we have one upstairs, one downstairs), talk about what it's for, set it up with soft and interesting things for sensory, practice using it, and PRAISE him using it.  So I didn't really start that till after he had had some defined spaces for a while.  I'd catch him going in and praise him like Oh, I'm so proud of you for using your space!  And he quickly figured out that was where he wanted to go.  So I'm not talking punitive but more we've practiced this, this is our tool, and if we're not in control and we're hurting people (for whatever reason), then let's use our tool and go to a place that helps us get back in control.  Good points.

 

Honestly, if he's not understanding your words, stop using them.  Go entirely to visuals.  I use the visual schedules and all sorts of things from Christine Reeve's Autism Classroom News website and TPT store.  Her stuff is GREAT and very affordable.  So now, when we're frustrated, we use our if/then chart.  It started with me doing it, but now HE uses it to communicate.  He has speech, but there's just this CLARITY that comes when you go visual.  You can try it.  Like make break cards and let him express with that.  For us it removes so much frustration and confusion and just lets us communicate clearly.  And sometimes when he's not calm, I'll take him to the notebook and show him the page of sensory options and say/point to choose 1.  That works for us.  Because sometimes you get so whatever that it's better to use visual than to use words and argue.  Huh. That's an interesting idea and it might help. A lot.

 

Schedules, same deal, we use visuals.  And I think you might find, as you behavior log, that there are antecedents to this behavior that you can get in the middle of.  So like if he's overwhelmed and moving from green (ready to learn) to yellow zone, you might decide ok, I know this subject does that to him.  I'm going to break it in half and do some sensory inbetween to keep him stable and regulated.  And you can SHOW that with the visual schedule!  So then you're communicating, you're staying stable, and instead of solving problems with means you're actually PREVENTING them with the tools.  Visual schedules, more sensory and things to keep him stable.  That's what is working here.

 

Anyways, those things are working here for us.  And I can't really make it all perfect.  Like he really does have this thing that he obeys his father and not me.  It's just like written in some circuitry in his head, along with all the other things he mixes up.  He really thinks that order is determined by size, that Daddy is biggest so he obeys and everyone else are just SERFS, that I should obey him if anything, on and on.  And he's just confused.  That's social.  And I really think we'll get there.  But it's totally true that right now he only seems to comply with me because it gets him what he wants.  But until I can get him understanding more, that's all I've got, kwim?  The behaviorist will have more tools, I'm sure.  So far she has talked about choice terminology.  So if we're going to say something, then let's use that.  Like "ds, are you making a GOOD CHOICE?" when he does something.  Or praising him when he makes a good choice.  Because in his world sometimes he thinks of it as there WAS NO choice.  To move to a simple way of quanitifying that that is helpful.  

 

So I don't want it to sound like I've got it nailed, because I don't.  Some things are going to take some time, sigh.  

 

As far as teachers, ds only runs over them if they're weak.  I must be really blessed or something, because he has only had fabulous teachers.  They're not loud, not any of them, but they wait for attention and really seem to connect with him.  I try to hook him up with veteran teachers, not novices, and I watch very carefully to make sure he's having expected behavior.  He definitely does better with no waiting, clear expections, and a class that is just clip, clip, very well-managed.  He's in outside classes one day a week, and this is defintiely an issue. The teachers who are tough, no-nonsense don't have any complaints about him. Other teachers definitely tell a different story.

 

Have you ever looked into RDI?  There's a book, and although the RDI people swear you can't do it without the book, reality is the book is quite good.  It would build some of that connection with you two.  I try to do lots of K'nex with him for the same reason, to build that bond.  Floortime has suggestions on how to approach that.  Anyways, I try to make sure our relationship has that dynamic and isn't all just doing stuff he's disabled in. Do you know which book I should be looking for?

Thanks for all your suggestions.

 

[BooksandBoys]

I have a dd with ASD. Yes, I think this is an ASD thing.

 

Have you tried explicitly teaching him that when you ask in a nice voice, you still expect obedience? This is what we have done. "When I say ''would you please set the table, Child,' I'm just asking politely. It is a polite command, but it is still a command, and it means you need to set the table now."

 

I would expect to need a learning period, when you repeat this explanation in various situations, and if transitions are a problem give adequate warning ahead of time as usual.

 

I would not use a teasing voice. I think that's just too confusing.

 

I hope that helps!

 

Yes, I have and continue to explicitly teach that a nice voice still means that I expect compliance. I think I've seen a bit of improvement over the years, but only a bit.

 

I don't use a teasing voice anymore. I've definitely learned that it doesn't work, but he still encounters that form other adults, so we're still working on it. Thanks for your suggestions!

[BooksandBoys]

What stands out to me is that the words you are using in these examples are very different. "Do not hit your brother" and "stop" versus "please be kind" and "it's not nice to hit". Maybe it's the words making the difference rather than the voice. Have you tried using the direct words but without the intense voice?

 

It sounds like you've already really explored this and I don't have a lot experience with ASD, so please forgive my intrusion into the conversation. I just thought I would mention what I noticed on the small chance that it might be helpful for you.

 

I do understand your frustration. Not the same situation but I know the feeling of not being able to parent the way I wanted to because it didn't work for my child.

 

I think my biggest problem is that I use too many words regardless of the tone. :-) While I "think" I have tried different levels of intensity with the same words, the truth is that I doubt it. I'll be working harder on simplifying my language. Maybe then I can start to reduce the intensity of my tone? We'll see. Thanks!

[Tsuga]

I have told many a child, after the fact, when they can listen:

 

"Just because I use the word please does not mean it is a question. That is the polite way to tell you what to do. In English we use "Can you please", "Will you please", to mean, DO IT NOW!!!!!! It means the same thing. One is just nicer to hear. Do you like the yelling or the pleases? Okay, the pleases and can you. Well then you need to treat those like I mean it or I will raise my voice."

 

Then, follow up for about five years with, "This is my polite voice order. Can you please..." "This is me being nice: Please stop now. I can--"

 

Oddly, my sister uses the same technique with her kids because they are equally impervious. I still have to do with with my 9 year old girl. "This is me asking politely. I will be less polite as it gets more urgent." But she already knows the background for that. I'd start with, "Please stop. That was the nice ask. Next I will raise my voice because you didn't hear the nice voice."

 

This works really well with the kids in our family. Not sure if it will work with your son, but kids in our family all seem unable to understand the whole "Could you / would you / that hurts" thing.

 

You have to say "STOP!" or explain the translation repeatedly, for them to get it. Even though we have always been "get off your butt" kind of parents.

[BooksandBoys]

Thanks, Lecka. I'll definitely research with the Instructional Control Autism keywords. I'm trying to wrap my brain around what visuals I can use for this kind of stuff. If I'm asking him to get dressed, am I pointing to a picture with clothes? If I want him to stop, am I holding up a stop sign while talking to him? Do I walk around with a tiny stop sign in my pocket? I think these kinds of things might be what you are all suggesting, but please redirect me if I'm wrong before I run off in the wrong direction.

 

Geodob, thank you. The lack of awareness of The Look was one of my first indications that he was likely on the spectrum. I had many years of nanny/childcare experience as well as grad level training in neuroscience before I had him, so when I realized he didn't respond to changes in my facial expressions, I could tell something was up. Of course, his doctors disagreed with me (mostly because he had a very advanced vocabulary), so it was many years before we sought a diagnosis. I guess it's been harder for me to accept that tone of voice also requires mirror cell activity. 

 

Albeto, that's a great idea! He has a heck of a time playing the basic hot/cold game for years, so we practiced it a lot. To add an emotional component could be very helpful. Hmm, Simon Says might be an interesting way to play around with emotional expression too. 

[BooksandBoys]

I don't have a child with that issue, but have had friends who have.

What I have done that has worked really well with those kids is to tell them what to do instead, hence taking their mind off what they are doing that I don't want them to do.

 

So, for instance, 5YO kid is walking toward the moving cars area of the school parking lot, and no one can reach him--he's about to walk into traffic, albeit slow traffic.  People are yelling at him to stop, and he is getting agitated.  I say his name and say, "Move backwards three steps."  He does, and that buys the time to get to him.  Why?  Because I got his attention and put his brain onto a different channel.  

 

Now, I'm aware that to a large extent as an outsider I have a very different relationship with him than his family does--but we were good friends with this family and he and I saw each other 5-6 days per week, so I was very familiar to him.  But again, not family.

 

In the case of 'stop hitting your brother', I would say, "Step back toward me."  Then I would get down at his level, look him right in the eye (whether he looked back or not, I wouldn't make him do that), and say, "People are special.  We don't hit people.  We HUG people."  Then I would hug him.  (He liked to be hugged, and it calmed him. Not all kids are like that.  Know your own kid.)  "You need to help your brother feel better, because you hurt him.  What can you do that would make him feel better?"  (If he didn't know, I would say, Tell him that you are sorry and ask him if you can hug him.)  After that, for a while I would be looking out for times when he might escalate toward hitting, and prevent this by physically getting between them.  I would say, "People are special.  We don't hit people.  We HUG people."  And if he tried anyway, I would remove him from the room and say, "I will not let you hit anyone.  Everyone needs to be safe from hitting.  People are special.  We don't hit people.  We HUG people."  

 

The keys, IME, were--short sentences, repetitive concepts, watchful intervention/prevention, and a quiet voice but plenty of follow through.  Oh, and also warmth.  This kid knew that I loved him.  

 

Anyway, I know it's exhausting.  I know that it takes forever before they start to learn self-control.  I know it's different for a parent.  But these techniques might be good tools in your toolbox.

 

Carol, I think this might help immensely. I am so excited to try it! DS has significant motor planning challenges. I have often suspected that he doesn't stop what I'm asking him to stop because he can't figure out "how," but it never occurred to me to tell him what to do instead (I know, I know, why don't these things seem obvious?). I know I've done it unintentionally ("Pick up your book" instead of "Stop stepping on your book"), but to do so intentionally could really make a difference with him.

[albeto.]

 Hmm, Simon Says might be an interesting way to play around with emotional expression too. 

 

Clever! How fun! 

 

Another thing we did (now that I'm thinking about it) was play "director. Ds was the director of a big movie shoot. His siblings would play the actors. The scene would be something oriented towards socially appropriate behavior, and sometimes the sibling (or I, or ABA tutor, if siblings got too silly) would do it wrong. Ds would yell "Cut!" Everyone would freeze, he would tell us what was wrong, and what we should have done right. Then we'd do it again. Sometimes he'd step in as the actor. It might look something like this:

 

Scene: Saying thank you at a restaurant

 

Waiter: "Here's your bionicle stew, ma'am.

Patroness: "EW! That's disgusting!"

Director: "Cut! You're supposed to say, "Thank you," even if you think it looks disgusting. Aaand Action!"

Waiter: "Here's your bionicle stew, ma'am."

Patroness: "Thank you?"

Everyone: giggle

 

You get the idea. You can change it up with requests, and the appropriate way to make a request (hint, includes "nice voice"), and the appropriate way to respond to a request.

 

Ds made a video recorder with an old shoe box, paper towel rolls, and who knows what else. It looked like the old movie reels from Buster Keaton days.

[Lecka]

If it is a good strategy for various reasons, then yes, people get little stop or wait cards and you can put them on your key ring.

 

If you google visual schedules autism or something t like that, you see the kinds of picture people use. There is something called board maker and it has these little pictures.

 

If your son reads, you can see if words or a picture is better. Many kids transition to lists.

 

The learning curve for autism is very steep. It takes a long time to read or learn about available strategies and how they fit together. It just takes time, and that is okay.

 

I have read an entire library about visual supports for autism.

 

But if you are still so new with the diagnosis, it can be good to look for more general books.

 

Books tend to be either very general with no specifics, or very focused on just one area.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Lecka

[Lecka]

Some favorite general books: Uniquely Human by Barry Prizant, 10 Things by Ellen Notbohm, an early start for your child with autism (which is for little kids, but I think it explains some things very well), and then if you read articles on the social thinking website, they have a lot of general information, too.

 

My school district uses "autism internet modules" which have a free sign up. They have an overview, and then they have information about a lot of different strategies, too. They are -- intro videos and then written summaries I think are clear.

 

You can search on YouTube and sometimes find videos about certain things, too. I would rather look up someone I know is legitimate and then see if they have videos, but sometimes I watch random videos.

[PeterPan]

So, for instance, 5YO kid is walking toward the moving cars area of the school parking lot, and no one can reach him--he's about to walk into traffic, albeit slow traffic.  People are yelling at him to stop, and he is getting agitated.  I say his name and say, "Move backwards three steps."  He does, and that buys the time to get to him.  Why?  Because I got his attention and put his brain onto a different channel.  

Joyce Show's book talks about this in her chapter on initiation.  She says the reason it works is because there's an initiation issue in the basal ganglia in the brain (I have no clue what I'm talking about).  Definitely a good technique!  :)