Parents of non-math kids

[Alison in KY]

I would love to hear from other parents whose kids struggle in math.  Like really struggle :).  I am having a hard time wrapping my brain around what the world expects and what we are capable of, and what even makes sense. 

 

In our case, my intelligent teen is a junior and we haven't gotten through beginning algebra yet.  According to public high school and college, we should complete algebra 1, 2, and geometry before graduation.  I doubt it's going to happen, not for lack of trying.  What I do have is a kid who can add/subtract/multiple/divide, make change, understands fractions and percents, etc.

 

I've gotten a lot of advice over the past few years about trying this program or that, keep working on it, hold him back, etc.  Nice advice, but it's one of those things that until you've been there I just don't think you understand.  This is not a case of us letting math go, skipping around, etc.  It's simply a case of an otherwise bright kid who struggles with multiple steps, unknowns, paying attention to details, etc.  And this does carry over to other areas at times...with studying and testing the typical public school way. 

 

So honestly, what then?  What have you done?  I plan on making an acceptable transcript with the required math courses graded a passing C.  I really don't know what else I could do...I mean you don't just stop someone from growing up because they can't do "higher" level math :).  And I will continue to encourage him to attend college, or whatever he wants for his future.

 

I know I'm venting here.  I just get frustrated that the world is made to fit in that box, and if you don't fit it's somehow a negative :(.

 

Anyone else?

[marbel]

I am in the place with my kids.  

 

One has a documented "math disorder."  He is a senior and has completed algebra 1 but when he took placement tests for community college dual enrollment, he did not test into college algebra.  He is going through their tutoring program now to see if he can retest to a higher level.  (Here, you can retest once to improve placement.)   The really difficult part for him is that he loves science, but he can't take classes he wants because he doesn't have the math.   We are encouraging him to start full-time at CC next year, see if he can improve the math, and focus on careers that don't require more than he can do.   He has been taking a welding class and loves it, so he may end up in the skilled trades.  He actually earned an honest "B" grade in Algebra 1 in his junior year, but didn't retain it well enough. 

 

The other (a junior) despises math.  I don't know if there is a disorder there, or just hatred, or a combination.  She will get through algebra 1, I hope, and then we'll do some sort of personal finance thing for her senior year.  She was never going to be a science or math kid so I don't worry about it for her so much.  She plans to major in fine art which I know has a lot of people rolling their eyes these days, but that's what she's been focused on since she was first able to pick up a crayon.  

 

It's very discouraging with everyone is beating the STEM drum now. 

 

Sorry I don't have anything more encouraging to say! 

Edited January 22, 2016 by marbel

[springr8]

Alison,

    I have been a lurker on here for quite some time but your post really hit home! We are in the exact same situation. I would rather not post publicly about my son's struggles but feel free to PM me. Would love to chat and commiserate with you!

[Shellydon]

I would have him tested for dyscalculia.  If he has a documented learning disorder, that can help him get accommodations in college.  Has he taken a class under some else besides trying at home?

[mysterious_jedi]

As a high school math teacher, let me assure you that if he really does understand arithmetic, fractions, percentages, etc. then he is not as far behind as you may think. (I once tutored an eighth grader who had trouble with single digit addition and subtraction. Granted, I had her in a pull-out because of her math struggles, and that's not at all standard, but still.)

 

Most colleges are going to want the three math credits, so I would try to push through. If he does well in other areas, C's in math shouldn't kill his transcripts. (He may have to start in community college and transfer elsewhere later, but that's cheaper anyways).

 

I would recommend taking a look at jumpmath.org. It only goes through eighth grade, but some of the basic algebra concepts are covered. (Again, you'd be surprised at how many kids struggle to grasp basic algebra).From there, I'd probably go with something like Saxon (except maybe more mastery-oriented) or that teaches the kids how to do the math without making them try to discover it. Inquiry learning is great, but for a kid who has trouble with math it sometimes just leads to frustration.

 

Also, I would let him use desmos.com when he does his math work. It might help him to "see" the functions graphically.

 

Feel free to let me know if you have questions---not a parent, but I do teach math at a Christian school.

[Alison in KY]

Just wanted to post my thanks to those suggesting testing and trying some other things.  We don't think he has dyscalculia.  He does have ADHD.

 

I have hired an experienced tutor...didn't help.  I've tried online programs, home programs, lots and lots of review, etc.  Yes, we have gained ground..but when you have a soon to be 17 year old who will graduate in a year and a half, you don't have much time to cover three math levels.

 

I'm sorry, I hope I'm not coming across unappreciative.  I think I'm just done worry about trying to get over this hurdle, when I think maybe the hurdle is overinflated anyway. 

 

I'm trying to build my son's confidence that just because his math scores are low, that doesn't make him unintelligent or even not a good candidate for college.  I have no idea what he will end up doing and all I tell him right now is that I wouldn't go for a degree with a lot of math.

 

I am annoyed that this has stressed me out so much.  I'm annoyed that so much emphasis is placed on the ACT when I know too many people who scored poorly on their ACT and went on to go through college and be quite successful in life.  I'm just annoyed lol.  But I do appreciate all of the suggestions and comments.  I will try my best to make the next year and a half go well for my moves at a snails pace, not good at math, lazy, fun, entertaining kid:).

 

[Alison in KY]

We used other venues to make the student realize details count. That could be cooking....does it matter if you forget the salt? How about skateboarding...if you shift your body incorrectly, do you land the trick? The band teacher also had a great lesson that he presented on details in a musical piece, so it wasnt just mom. How about driving...do you have to do a full stop or is rolling okay? I yanked the driving privileges for 6 months when the kid decided details dont matter in driving. He can pay attention to details that matter to him, such as clothing, passing a class etc. So he has the ability. Those 6 months had some interesting conversations, and he was still a kid that tried to do as little as possible academically in math. What changed his attitude was online software used by his college teachers. He could target his practice and get clear explanations well before he had to perform on a test and there was no penalty for failure on the hw.

 

For multistep, how is his working memory?

 

Good ideas.  His memory is okay, sometimes it's non-existent and sometimes great.  Very random, but it is.  He lacks confidence and although he can do steps fine when you tell him every step of the way how to do things...he can't put it together and do it well on his own.

[Alison in KY]

As a high school math teacher, let me assure you that if he really does understand arithmetic, fractions, percentages, etc. then he is not as far behind as you may think. (I once tutored an eighth grader who had trouble with single digit addition and subtraction. Granted, I had her in a pull-out because of her math struggles, and that's not at all standard, but still.)

 

Most colleges are going to want the three math credits, so I would try to push through. If he does well in other areas, C's in math shouldn't kill his transcripts. (He may have to start in community college and transfer elsewhere later, but that's cheaper anyways).

 

I would recommend taking a look at jumpmath.org. It only goes through eighth grade, but some of the basic algebra concepts are covered. (Again, you'd be surprised at how many kids struggle to grasp basic algebra).From there, I'd probably go with something like Saxon (except maybe more mastery-oriented) or that teaches the kids how to do the math without making them try to discover it. Inquiry learning is great, but for a kid who has trouble with math it sometimes just leads to frustration.

 

Also, I would let him use desmos.com when he does his math work. It might help him to "see" the functions graphically.

 

Feel free to let me know if you have questions---not a parent, but I do teach math at a Christian school.

Thanks.  I will try those things. 

 

Could you tell me what you do as a math teacher when you have a kid like this?  If I am there to help his focus, and remind him how, he can do the problems.  I leave, then he can't because he's left to order and put everything together.  I say he can do fractions but those are probably the hardest for him because he will forget which steps to do...like when do I need common denom.'s etc...  But if we are actively working for a few days on one concept it's fine.  Leave it for a week and it's gone.  I could not review enough for this kiddo.

 

I'm thinking this surely isn't that uncommon, and I often wonder what level he'd be at in public school.  Maybe I've kept him too far trying to get that passing grade on a test...which he often won't get.  Maybe I should be okay with showing him a concept, having him demonstrate back to me, then moving on even if he couldn't pass it a week later on a test? 

 

I am going to say he did the three math credits.  I will not let his future be dictated by math struggles.  I just wonder how others have handled similar situations out in the world.

 

Alison

[Alison in KY]

In KY the norm/college track is to have 3 maths - alg. 1 and 2, and geo.  I'm technically a mini private school so I could graduate him however I choose, but that would not look appealing should he decide to go to college.

 

He can and he can't.  Sometimes it seems easier than others, I think it just depends on what's going on in his head.  When we hit algebra, or any problem with an unknown, instead of trying to go through the steps he would (and still does some days) try to come up with a number for the unknown.  He would stare and stare at a problem.  If the problem was 2X = 4 then it was no big deal :).  It was explained to me that it's very difficult for him to separate those problems into little steps.  His brain instantly says no way, but this is all me saying this.  He couldn't put it into words, he'd just say he didn't know.  When he was younger we would hit road blocks with longer multiplication and division.  Numbers would get out of line, etc.  But we passed through it. 

 

He has common sense.  My middle one lacks the common sense, but if you give her instructions on how to do it then she'll get the problems right :).  On a test, she would look much better than him.  In real life, I'm not so sure that he wouldn't do better.

 

 

[Melissa B]

I have a daughter like this. She is in tenth grade and still finishing up prealgebra and is in the beginning of geometry. Over the next year and a half I hope to have her finish geometry and finish algebra 1. Next year she will start at the community college, without taking any math classes there her junior year. The summer before her senior year she will take Math Readiness at the CC and her senior year she will take Topics in Math and Contemporary Math, both classes for students that plan liberal arts majors and struggle with math.

 

So her transcript will have 4.5 credits and read:

 

Algebra 1                   1.0

Geometry                   1.0

Math Readiness         0.5

Topics in Math           1.0

Contemporary Math   1.0

 

 

 

[MomatHWTK]

Calculators exist for a reason.  

[Alison in KY]

Heigh Ho, I don't mind but to have him ready to go to college, it has to read like Alg 1, 2, and geo.

[Arcadia]

I'm trying to build my son's confidence that just because his math scores are low, that doesn't make him unintelligent or even not a good candidate for college. I have no idea what he will end up doing and all I tell him right now is that I wouldn't go for a degree with a lot of math.

My younger brother who finds theoretical stuff hard went the community college route to a mechanical engineering degree (BEng). He works as an engineer on projects that are lots more hands on then paperwork.

 

Friends who find theoretical math hard had done well with textbooks and courses that are for business or psychology students. Lots of real life case studies in those text/courses which makes it easier for them to remember how to do it.

 

I had seen geometry textbooks that are written for the construction/carpentry industry. If your child is interested, those might work instead of a typical public school geometry textbook.

 

If you need to put down algebra 1, geometry and algebra 2 on the transcript, maybe using books that has plenty of real life examples might help.

[lewelma]

NZ has an 11th and 12th grade qualitative statistics course.  I'm a tutor and teach a girl with dyscalculia who cannot subtract 10-7 without a tally chart and last time she did this it took her 30 seconds to get 2.  I have worked hard with her to get an A in this qualitative stats class and it has been awesome. The units:

 

1) Questionaire: Make, trial, and readjust a questionaire.  She had to write a report summarizing *why* she chose the questions she did and why she made changes based on the sample trial.

 

2) Simulation: She had to simulate (using a random number generator) a business case for how many kayaks a company should purchase. She was simulating how many people showed up each hour given the average, and trying to find out how many times she might run out of kayaks.  She had to write a report to clearly identify the implications for her choices (bad feelings for people having to wait 10 mintues, etc)

 

3) Evaluating a Statistical Report.  She had to evaluate a 16 page report put out by the Pew research group (if I remember correctly) evaluating their work. Did they meet their goals, did they write the report appropriately to their audience, were the graphs usable, could they have written out the text better, was there any errors in their data collection etc.

 

4) Evaluate a Newspaper article.  She had to evaluate the misinformation and misuse of statistics by the press.

 

5) Statistical investigation.  She had take data from a sports team, write a usable question, appropriately sample the data, analyse the data (mostly averages, but also qualitative statistical tests like 75% of data in one group above 75% of data in the other), graph the data, answer the question, discuss assumptions, problems, future questions, etc. 

 

6) Probability and Distributions exam.  She used a graphing calculator to do simple quantitative statistical tests. 

 

7) Networks: Can't remember the details of this but it was about things like what is the most efficient path for a delivery truck to make all his runs using path analysis.  And for businesses, what is the most efficient path for getting a large project done where different pieces rely on other pieces being done, and all this considering time.

 

+++++

 

This was the 11th grade class.  I haven't taught the 12th grade one yet.  It was a very very useful class.  Totally doable for her but still difficult and not demeaning. It also has taught her skills that are directly relevant for a person in business.  Seriously, how many people actually *do* the math and statistics vs *using* them to make decisions.  This is a decision making course.

 

 I'm not sure what resources are available in the USA, but NZ puts out quite a few for this class. Here are the 11th grade booklets that I use, each booklet is one of the above units:  http://www.nulake.co.nz/products/nulake-year-12/  The math books are mixed in with the stats books, so you will need to scroll down to see everything. Every booklet has a sample that you can download.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

Edited January 22, 2016 by lewelma

[almondbutterandjelly]

Honestly?   I would create nontraditional Alg 1 and 2 and Geometry classes.  Is your student a reader?  For geometry, read some books that talk about Geometry, like String Straightedge and Shadow.  Read some "living math" books (there's a website with those.  I think it's livingmath.net).  Have a book list for each class.  Call it good when those books are read.

 

Git er done, but do something, don't just give credit for not even touching the topic.  Just touch it in a different way.

 

If your student is more hands on, then find some hand on stuff to require instead.  Maybe mess with Zometools for Geometry.  Lakeshore Learning Center has lots of hands on stuff that has basic geometry, and that's all you need at this point.

 

Take heart.  Tons of kids got through public school barely scraping by in their math classes.  I know you want to do better for your kid, and you have.  Now we just need a "git er done" approach and let that be that.

 

 

 

 

[Alison in KY]

Honestly?   I would create nontraditional Alg 1 and 2 and Geometry classes.  Is your student a reader?  For geometry, read some books that talk about Geometry, like String Straightedge and Shadow.  Read some "living math" books (there's a website with those.  I think it's livingmath.net).  Have a book list for each class.  Call it good when those books are read.

 

Git er done, but do something, don't just give credit for not even touching the topic.  Just touch it in a different way.

 

If your student is more hands on, then find some hand on stuff to require instead.  Maybe mess with Zometools for Geometry.  Lakeshore Learning Center has lots of hands on stuff that has basic geometry, and that's all you need at this point.

 

Take heart.  Tons of kids got through public school barely scraping by in their math classes.  I know you want to do better for your kid, and you have.  Now we just need a "git er done" approach and let that be that.

 

Great suggestions, thank you!  We are currently doing a pre-algebra course, but it includes several subjects from algebra 1.  WE are doing school every day, and weekends and plan on going all summer.  Although, I admit, things have slacked the last few weeks :)  I'm motivated to gain as much ground as possible.  I'll probably have him double up with geometry soon, although I hope I'm not wasting money even trying that one.

[Mom22ns]

So honestly, what then?  What have you done?  I plan on making an acceptable transcript with the required math courses graded a passing C.  I really don't know what else I could do...I mean you don't just stop someone from growing up because they can't do "higher" level math :).  And I will continue to encourage him to attend college, or whatever he wants for his future.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Does this mean he will still be working on Algebra 1 when he graduates, but you will list Algebra 1, 2 and Geometry?

 

For my experience, Ds struggled with math, not as badly as your ds, but he struggled. We did make it through Algebra 2 and he even tried AP Stats. He got an A for one semester, but was totally lost and dropped it. The only reason we tried it was because the college he attends would have accepted it for his one and only required math class. Instead he took and passed one credit of math at the University. It was a class clearly designed for non-math people, but it had a prerequisite of Algebra 2. He survived and plans to never take another math class!

 

Ds had a good friend that was in the foster care system. He took Algebra 1 three times at three different schools. He never took the state end of course exam, so the next school just kept putting him back in Algebra 1. He graduated, even though our state graduation requirement says the student will have 3 math credits Algebra 1 and above. He had 3 math credits... Algebra 1. He is now attending a CC.

 

My SIL teaches high school math. The school where she teaches routinely breaks Algebra over two years and the same for Algebra 2. 

 

All this to say that if your ds plans to go to college, he will probably have to have a minimum of College Algebra to graduate. I would continue with math, but I would not misname classes on his transcript. Hopefully he can get through Algebra 1 spread over the rest of his high school career. Call it Algebra 1A and Algebra 1B or something. After that, consider continueing to homeschool math, even while he is in college. You should be able to create a transcript that will let him get into college, but that won't change their math graduation requirement. With his math difficulties, it doesn't seem feasible that he will suddenly be able to do Algebra 2 and College Algebra in a semester each! I would try to choose a school that would allow him to use the College Algebra CLEP as his only math requirement. It is barely more than Algebra 2 and the multiple choice format makes it a reasonable goal. I would forget Geometry, and just keep pushing forward with Algebra until he can pass that test, then he can forget math forever. 

 

I do think his math skills will limit his college options, but I don't think it has to stop him.

[Reefgazer]

Can computer science substitute for a traditional math credit?

[mysterious_jedi]

Thanks.  I will try those things. 

 

Could you tell me what you do as a math teacher when you have a kid like this?  If I am there to help his focus, and remind him how, he can do the problems.  I leave, then he can't because he's left to order and put everything together.  I say he can do fractions but those are probably the hardest for him because he will forget which steps to do...like when do I need common denom.'s etc...  But if we are actively working for a few days on one concept it's fine.  Leave it for a week and it's gone.  I could not review enough for this kiddo.

 

I'm thinking this surely isn't that uncommon, and I often wonder what level he'd be at in public school.  Maybe I've kept him too far trying to get that passing grade on a test...which he often won't get.  Maybe I should be okay with showing him a concept, having him demonstrate back to me, then moving on even if he couldn't pass it a week later on a test? 

 

I am going to say he did the three math credits.  I will not let his future be dictated by math struggles.  I just wonder how others have handled similar situations out in the world.

 

Alison

At this age, I would get him a scientific calculator that can do fractions. I would also let him use a reference sheet for some of the formulas and such. At our school, when a "low" kid reaches 10th grade, they do Business Math Preparation (basically remedial algebra), and then they do Business Math in grade 11. Business Math is super practical---they learn about interest rates, loans, investments, profit, etc.---but the math itself is not as complicated as our regular (integrated) Math 10 or Precalculus.

[Shellydon]

This is likely an unpopular opinion, but if he can do the work with you standing by, but can't focus when you leave, I would try ADHD medication.  Not having the math skills can really hold him back in life.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Shellydon

[Alison in KY]

This is likely an unpopular opinion, but if he can do the work with you standing by, but can't focus when you leave, I would try ADHD medication.  Not having the math skills can really hold him back in life.

He's taking med's.  If I show him how to do it, he get's it.  If I let him do it on his own and remind him of the steps he can do it...left on his own he typically can't finish, skips, and/or makes lots of little mistakes. 

[3andme]

In your situation, I would just do the best you can to fashion a course that suits his needs and covers the basics of Algebra and Geometry. Let's face it, there are many ps students who have all three classes on their transcript sometimes even with As and Bs who end up needing remedial Algebra in college. Also in awarding grades remember that in most schools, the final grade is not just based on an exam alone but is a composite of credit for completed homework and other non-test things. 

 

Has he tried Geometry already? If not, I would definitely move on to that as some students do much better with Geo than Algebra. Continue to do short daily review in Algebra to keep it fresh. Maybe use something like MUS that's not too rigorous or proof heavy. Use cheat sheets if necessary.

 

You've used a tutor already so you've probably tried this. However since he struggles with all the steps, a Kumon type approach (daily timed speed drills) might work to build up his automaticity and accuracy with each skill..If you haven't tried this, I've outlined some steps below. If you have, just ignore.

 

• Give him 2 short TIMED worksheets of the same type of problem each day with a cheat sheet outlining the steps and showing an example. This shouldn't take more than 15 minutes each day. Do it everyday and through the summer.

• Have him check his own answers each day and record the # correct and the time till completion on a log sheet. The number correct in a specific time frame is very important - this will help him focus on accuracy while the timed part will show if the skills are growing more automatic. Automaticity helps to lighten the short term memory burden so he can focus better.

• Do the worksheets yourself to determine a reasonably fast time objective. Do not move on to the next type of problem until he meets the objective. The competitive element and the sheer tedium should help him to progress. People often deride drill and kill but sometimes it lets the brain intuit the processes in its own way eventually leading to a deeper conceptual understanding.

[MerryAtHope]

It is what it is. You graduate him with the math classes he has taken, but show that he did math every year and label them what they are. If he takes 2 years to get through algebra, you can call it Algebra 1a and Algebra 1b or something else to show how far he got but that he didn't move on to Alg 2. This is why colleges have remedial math courses. Do you have a community college near you? He can start there (likely for a lot less than other college options) and transfer to a 4-year school later. A lot of CC's have quality instruction and great transfer agreements with schools. If not, talk to the colleges you would consider and see what they do with remedial math students. I know a bright young lady who struggled with math and never got beyond Algebra 1--she went on to college and did fine. It's not the end of the world, and they can make it later. Sometimes a student's brain hasn't grown and matured enough to understand higher level math until later, and that's not something anyone can change. Even in teaching my own kids, I've had some "aha!" moments in things that I don't know that I understood as a teen, even though I did well in math and enjoyed it. Some of the logic is very complex, and people learn at different rates. 

 

The fact that your son has ADHD will help too, I think. Schools are used to working with students who have learning disabilities and struggles, and they have a built-in structure for helping kids. (This is another area that I think a good CC can shine--they'll have smaller class sizes as well). 

 

Get him as far as you can in his high school years. If he can finish Algebra 1 this year, even with C's, and move on to Geometry, I think that's to his advantage. 

 

I am going to say he did the three math credits.  I will not let his future be dictated by math struggles.  I just wonder how others have handled similar situations out in the world.

 

Unfortunately, this really won't solve his problem. Colleges will know by his ACT or SAT scores that he doesn't know the math, or by the entrance/placement tests that they will make him do, and may not accept him on that basis. And, it will make his whole transcript look suspect. I think it's better to just be straight about what he DID do. Either way, he will have to take the math courses in college until he can do it, whether he does this at a local CC, or whether he gets accepted at a 4-year school and has to do the courses there. 

 

If you do have a CC, you might go talk with them about options for your son. 

Edited January 23, 2016 by MerryAtHope

[MerryAtHope]

I would forget Geometry, and just keep pushing forward with Algebra until he can pass that test, then he can forget math forever. 

 

I don't know that this would work around here. The ACT has a geometry subtest, and a minimum score of 10 is required on the subtest or they have to take a remedial geometry class too. Maybe it's different in other areas of the country? 

[Storygirl]

I know you say that you don't think he has dyscalculia, but it sounds like dyscalculia to me. I would ask the public school to test him (or do it privately, but that is expensive), so that you have it documented. Colleges may want to see that he has been tested.

 

My son has dyscalculia, diagnosed both privately and by the schools. He is only in fifth grade, so I can't advise you about what to do about high school, but your description of what math is like for your son sounds very much like what my son struggles with.

 

ETA: Schools generally won't call it dyscalculia but a Specific Learning Disorder in math.

 

Also, you said you don't want his troubles with math to hold him back in life. However, it is likely to affect his choice of college, which is why I think it is important to have the paperwork.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Storygirl

[scoutingmom]

I know you say that you don't think he has dyscalculia, but it sounds like dyscalculia to me. I would ask the public school to test him (or do it privately, but that is expensive), so that you have it documented. Colleges may want to see that he has been tested.

 

My son has dyscalculia, diagnosed both privately and by the schools. He is only in fifth grade, so I can't advise you about what to do about high school, but your description of what math is like for your son sounds very much like what my son struggles with.

 

ETA: Schools generally won't call it dyscalculia but a Specific Learning Disorder in math.

 

Also, you said you don't want his troubles with math to hold him back in life. However, it is likely to affect his choice of college, which is why I think it is important to have the paperwork.

I agree, it sounds like dyscalculia to me

 

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

[Storygirl]

I woke up this morning thinking about this thread. Probably because I've been thinking a lot lately about my son's future and how to plan his educational path. OP, here is what I would advise you to do. I don't think that putting classes on the transcript that don't represent his true work and abilities does him any favors, and it may set him up for further problems in college.

 

* Have him evaluated for a learning disability and document it.

 

* Consider something like this for his transcript:

   9th grade -- Basic Math

  10th grade -- Prealgebra

  11th grade -- Algebra 1a

  12th grade -- Algebra 2a

 

* In your reference letter for his college applications, mention his learning disability and how he had to work hard to achieve the level that he accomplished in math. Although it was a struggle, it helped develop perseverance and character. And then spend the rest of the letter focusing on his academic and extracurricular strengths.

 

* Look for colleges that do not have a math requirement. I don't know how easy it is to find this, but the LAC that I attended did not require any math courses for graduation (some majors did require math, but there was no general math requirement that all students had to meet). So it may be possible to narrow his choices to schools that will suit him. Also look for colleges that have a good track record for working with students with learning differences. Some schools are better than others at this. But they will most likely require documentation.

 

And here are some personal thoughts. I think that he will run into difficulty with college admissions without having some evaluations and documentation. Even our community college requires either a certain score on the ACT or a passing grade on an entrance exam. Otherwise, the students must take a remedial math class before they can start taking any math that will count as credit for their degree. Students with LD may struggle even in these remedial classes and find it hard to progress. Has he taken the SAT or ACT yet? If his math scores are low but there is no explanation for it with documentation of a learning disorder, the colleges may see red flags, which will affect admissions potential. And then after admission, how will he explain to his college why he has so much trouble passing math and doing the math in his science classes when his transcript says he did Geometry and Algebra II in high school? I just think it is a problem to represent on the transcript that he understands material that he never studied. He is the one who will have to live up to what is on the transcript, and I don't think it is fair to him to set him up to have to deal with that. It's better to represent things as they truly are, even if they are less than ideal.

 

In my area, I can look at our high school course catalog online, so I can see the titles of the classes that are offered. There are definitely some classes that do not correspond to the traditional math sequence. You might find out what your local public school does for students who have not been able to take the typical math sequence, and that may give you some further ideas.

 

I know this is hard. We are facing it here as well, not only with our younger son, but with DD14, who struggles with math and will not have a really strong transcript in the areas of math and science. But there are other kids with learning struggles who have forged a path through higher learning, and I'm confident that our kids can do it as well, if they so desire. Our job as parents is to help them find the path that works for them.

 

:grouphug:

[Mom22ns]

I don't know that this would work around here. The ACT has a geometry subtest, and a minimum score of 10 is required on the subtest or they have to take a remedial geometry class too. Maybe it's different in other areas of the country? 

 

That's interesting. I don't think anyone looks at the Geometry subtest scores and there are no remedial Geometry courses offered at our CC or the local State U. However, if the OP is in an area where that would happen, I'd recommend MUS Geometry as the perfect ACT prep and super easy, get-it-done style. Probably easier than Algebra for most kids.

[MariaT]

My oldest had a math-collapse his junior year. That January we decided to drop the math course and instead focus on ACT math test prep.He had a lovely tutor who understood him and totally taught to the test. He got the scores he wanted, and that made it easier to list his at-home math courses as completed but without mommy grades. He now is at a wonderful LA school and is very happy, wallowing in his favorite literature and writing courses.

 

Hang in there!

Maria

[letsplaymath]

I don't know how it is in KY, but in IL you really don't need to take the SAT or ACT at all. The community college will accept a student based on their in-house placement test, and the U of I will accept the student based on the community college credits. You do have to put in a couple years at the community college, but getting the Associate degree there is the cheapest way to get those general college credits anyway. Of my three kids who were accepted to (and graduated from) U of I, only one of them had bothered to take the test.

[Alison in KY]

I know you say that you don't think he has dyscalculia, but it sounds like dyscalculia to me. I would ask the public school to test him (or do it privately, but that is expensive), so that you have it documented. Colleges may want to see that he has been tested.

 

My son has dyscalculia, diagnosed both privately and by the schools. He is only in fifth grade, so I can't advise you about what to do about high school, but your description of what math is like for your son sounds very much like what my son struggles with.

 

ETA: Schools generally won't call it dyscalculia but a Specific Learning Disorder in math.

 

Also, you said you don't want his troubles with math to hold him back in life. However, it is likely to affect his choice of college, which is why I think it is important to have the paperwork.

 When I've looked up the symptoms, he fits in a few, but mostly he does not fit with dyscalculia.  Not saying he doesn't, but we don't think he does.  I think the attention deficit is the majority of it.  We had him tested privately and the psychologist didn't suggest dyscalculia.  He is taking ADHD medicine, but I'm really not sure it's helping.  Thank you for the suggestions.

[Alison in KY]

I had to take a few days away from my own thread :).  What was meant as a whiny post griping about the way things are set up making it difficult for some kids has me stressing out about it all over again. 

 

Storygirl, I wanted to thank you for the thought and hugs.  Well, not just Storygirl, but everyone here!  I really appreciate it.

 

I do feel like I am in a situation where preparing this kid for college means I have to list a passing grade for algebra 1, 2, and geometry.  It's what I've seen listed at the local community college and the closest state college.  I really don't know what to do other than that.  It doesn't make sense to me, but I have spoken with admissions in both colleges and that is what they say.  At the same time, they tell me if ACT or COMPASS scores in math are low then the kids will have to take a remedial math class.  What really confuses me is how they say to do both algebras and geometry, but they are also saying if scores are low then a remedial math class will be taken.   

 

I think I need to go have a face to face meeting with admissions and make sure I'm comparing apples to apples because it seems like the schools are saying two different things.  In KY they have what is called a pre-college curriculum and all colleges (even community) follow it.  It lists three maths, algebra 1, 2, and geo.  required for college admissions.  Well, when it's black and white, listed as a requirement, then that looks like it's required.  If I listen to admissions, a kid who doesn't do those three classes, or struggles, shouldn't even be in college (which is ridiculous).  Yet I will see on their math classes that they offer courses below algebra (applied math, contemporary, etc).

 

We have not done the ACT yet, we have our first one in 2 weeks.  On his practice ACT he said the math was terrible and he scored a 15, which was better than I was expecting :).

 

I feel like some of you think I should not put a passing grade on a transcript with Alg 1, 2, and geo.  What I am saying is that if that's what it takes for a step inside the door at college to do remedial math, then I'm good with that.  We will keep at math and get as far as we can as promptly as we can. 

 

I just don't like nor understand the requirements written and told by colleges and almost a feeling like kids aren't college worthy if they struggle in one area or another. 

 

I became whiny again, sorry.

 

I welcome anymore been there and done that, or in the midst of it.  I also appreciate the curriculum suggestions.

 

Alison

 

 

[Arcadia]

A friend whose kid graduated from public high school made Cs and also did summer credit recovery for all those math courses. If the child were to apply to community college here, she might have to do remedial math.

 

I just see it as typical bureaucracy, a checkbox that they tick, but the placement tests matters.

 

:grouphug:

[kiana]

Look into something like the Power Basics curriculum. If the PS can award a credit for it, so can you. They're really basic but should provide enough of a base that hopefully he can make it into intermediate algebra instead of beginning. They're designed for struggling kids in PS. 

Edited January 27, 2016 by kiana

[almondbutterandjelly]

Look into something like the Power Basics curriculum. If the PS can award a credit for it, so can you. They're really basic but should provide enough of a base that hopefully he can make it into intermediate algebra instead of beginning. They're designed for struggling kids in PS. 

 

I was looking at some random KY community colleges, and some of them want you to list textbooks you used.  Going through Power Basics together might be a good git'er done.

 

Also, gently, listing that you have completed a class when you actually haven't done anything at all for that class, is fraud, isn't it?  Be nontraditional if you want, but don't do nothing and say you did. 

[Alison in KY]

I was looking at some random KY community colleges, and some of them want you to list textbooks you used.  Going through Power Basics together might be a good git'er done.

 

Also, gently, listing that you have completed a class when you actually haven't done anything at all for that class, is fraud, isn't it?  Be nontraditional if you want, but don't do nothing and say you did. 

 

I am not doing nothing and calling it a something.  I am doing something as best as we can and going to call it passable.  We have consistently worked on math every year, summers, etc.  Even the different math textbooks are not consistent.  Our pre-algebra mathusee did not have a lot of algebra in it.  Now our pre-algebra Tabletclass math has a lot of algebra, and comparing it to the algebra 1, has many of the same topics, one just works a bit slower than the other.

 

I know you don't mean anything negative, and I'll admit I'm feeling like my toes are being stomped on a bit.  As stated above, it's the system that is set up a bit wonky in my opinion.  If a kid doesn't fit within the box, then they are made to feel like they have to pick a trade and I don't think that is correct.  I'm just a frustrated momma.

 

A good friend, quite wise in life, made a 28 on the English portion of the ACT, and a 14 in math.  She went on to go through college, get a BS and masters, and is doing quite well for herself.  She still hates math, but handles her money quite well :).  I know several people like this, and these are the people I tell my son about, so hopefully he feels like just because his brain can't connect with math, that he's not totally stuck in a certain future.

[lewelma]

 

 

Unfortunately, this really won't solve his problem. Colleges will know by his ACT or SAT scores that he doesn't know the math, or by the entrance/placement tests that they will make him do, and may not accept him on that basis. And, it will make his whole transcript look suspect. I think it's better to just be straight about what he DID do.

:iagree:

 

Do NOT put something on his transcript that he did not do.  Math in particular can be objectively evaluated which means that it will be easy for people to know you have lied on the transcript.

 

If I were in your shoes, I would:

1) Get him tested for dyscalculia

2) Do a bare bones Algebra and geometry class

3) skip Algebra 2, he simply doesn't have the time to learn it given his skill level

4) Spend 1 hour per day 7 days a week

5) Sit WITH him for the entire hour and keep him on task

6) Count effort/participation as a large component of his final grade

7) put Algebra 1a and Algebra 1b and Geometry on his transcript 

8) Work hard on his ACT math skills 

9) Call a number of universities, and find out what is the math requirement for a kid with dyscalculia.

 

I agree with you that it is completely unfair for ALL students to jump through the hoop of Algebra 2. Much more useful would be to require consumer math or something like the qualitative stats class that I described above.  But it is what it is.   :crying:   As a math tutor, if a kid can do fractions, I can get them through algebra 1 and geometry with a passing grade, even with ADHD.  You can do this. SIT with him, and you have a chance.

 

Ruth in NZ 

[lewelma]

I should add that for kids like your, I create flashcards to drill algebraic concepts.  So 2x+4x on one side, 6x on the other.  We go through the pile every day and any he gets wrong, goes in the back of the pack so he will do those twice.  The pack can get up to 100 cards before I start pulling them out.  I hold the cards, and my student will give the answer orally. We can get this reviewing/drill done in 15 minutes. By making them flashcards, I can tailor the review to the specific student because we pullout the cards that he has mastered and put them in a once a week pile.  So we don't rely on premade worksheets that aren't tailored to *my* student. And by doing them orally, it is much faster.  This approach is very efficient.

[klmama]

Alison, admissions exceptions are made all the time at CCs and state universities.  Take a look at the actual course offerings at your local CC and at the state U.  I suspect you will find that both offer remedial math courses.  Students in those courses likely were accepted despite not having completed all three of the "required" courses.  I suggest you contact the schools and ask. 

[MerryAtHope]

I am not doing nothing and calling it a something.  I am doing something as best as we can and going to call it passable.  We have consistently worked on math every year, summers, etc.  Even the different math textbooks are not consistent.  Our pre-algebra mathusee did not have a lot of algebra in it.  Now our pre-algebra Tabletclass math has a lot of algebra, and comparing it to the algebra 1, has many of the same topics, one just works a bit slower than the other.

 

I don't think anyone is thinking that you aren't working on math. What we are trying to say is that you really can't truthfully say he did Algebra 2 or Geometry if the highest course he takes is Algebra 1. I would list the courses that he has *actually* done. I don't think you have to pretend that he did Algebra 2 to get him in the door to be able to take remedial math classes, at least not at a CC.

 

Alison, admissions exceptions are made all the time at CCs and state universities.  Take a look at the actual course offerings at your local CC and at the state U.  I suspect you will find that both offer remedial math courses.  Students in those courses likely were accepted despite not having completed all three of the "required" courses.  I suggest you contact the schools and ask. 

 

Yes, this is also what I was trying to say above. Most CC's have open admission which means they accept all applicants. I can't speak to CCs in Kentucky, but here, if a student didn't have those math courses, that's what they would start with for math. Our CC requires them too--and then they use tests like Compass or ACT to verify the student's proficiency (because even some kids who take the courses don't retain it, or haven't mastered the material to a minimum acceptable level). Students who haven't taken the classes or who have but either didn't pass or didn't do well on the entrance tests will take those math classes at the CC. My state university (way back 30 years ago) worked the same way--they did entrance tests and made sure anyone who didn't have a certain score took those math classes.   

 

CCs usually admit anyone--you can get a GED at a CC. So, I'm saying that not being able to complete those classes in high school does not mean he can't go on to college, but it does mean he'll have to take them before he can complete his college degree. There may even be universities that would accept a student who was talented in one area but needed help in another. They won't waive the requirement completely (just for admission)--they'll make the student take it in college. 

 

Taking them at the CC is usually cheaper than at a university (and it may be easier to just start there and then transfer to a university later). Taking them at home is usually cheaper still, so that's why I would get as far as you can at home, but don't sweat it if he's just not getting it yet. This doesn't have to keep him out of college. I really would urge you to go talk with your local CC and see what they offer for kids who struggle with math. You might be pleasantly surprised. I'll be surprised if they DON'T accept all students (I've not heard of a CC that didn't have open admission....) 

 

If the CC is in your town, you could even have your son try the next math class at the CC during his senior year. Maybe a different approach and being another year older will be just what he needs to be successful and move on. 

[lewelma]

I'll admit I'm feeling like my toes are being stomped on a bit.  As stated above, it's the system that is set up a bit wonky in my opinion.  If a kid doesn't fit within the box, then they are made to feel like they have to pick a trade and I don't think that is correct.  I'm just a frustrated momma.

 

 

You and I were posting at the same time, and I did not see this.  My post looks so insensitive coming straight after yours.  :crying:  I hear that you are working at it so diligently and I agree that the system is unfair.  I know that other disagree with me, but I would not even require Algebra 1 for certain kids that I tutor.  There would be much better and more useful classes for them.  I get *very* frustrated teaching kids how to use the quadratic equation when they can't even solve a basic word problem.  Someone has NOT thought this through.  But unfortunately, no one who sets policy has ever asked me!  I am not saying that you should require a serious class in Algebra 1 and Geometry course in order to list it on the transcript; I would totally make them 'light' courses and call it good.  But passing algebra 2 suggests a mastery of a *serious* algebra 1 class, and that is where you fall into trouble.  Algebra 2 is hard. Very hard.  And not all kids can get through it.  That does not mean their life is over.  Seriously, what percentage of the population uses Algebra 2 even occasionally?  It is not high.  So talk to the Colleges and find out how they handle kids like yours.  There has to be a way. You need to ask!

 

Ruth in NZ

[Mom22ns]

:iagree:

 

Do NOT put something on his transcript that he did not do.  Math in particular can be objectively evaluated which means that it will be easy for people to know you have lied on the transcript.

 

If I were in your shoes, I would:

1) Get him tested for dyscalculia

2) Do a bare bones Algebra and geometry class

3) skip Algebra 2, he simply doesn't have the time to learn it given his skill level

4) Spend 1 hour per day 7 days a week

5) Sit WITH him for the entire hour and keep him on task

6) Count effort/participation as a large component of his final grade

7) put Algebra 1a and Algebra 1b and Geometry on his transcript 

8) Work hard on his ACT math skills 

9) Call a number of universities, and find out what is the math requirement for a kid with dyscalculia.

 

I agree with you that it is completely unfair for ALL students to jump through the hoop of Algebra 2. Much more useful would be to require consumer math or something like the qualitative stats class that I described above.  But it is what it is.   :crying:   As a math tutor, if a kid can do fractions, I can get them through algebra 1 and geometry with a passing grade, even with ADHD.  You can do this. SIT with him, and you have a chance.

 

Ruth in NZ 

 

This. This exactly. It doesn't matter what you put on his transcript if he can't get a decent ACT score and can't do the minimum math required to get a college degree (which is important only because you have said that is the goal). If he wants to get a college degree he has to do the math required for college, whether you think that system is messed up or not. 

 

I don't think anyone thought you were not working diligently at math. You have said you were and we believe you. However, if he is still in early algebra, you can't put passing grades for Algebra 1, 2 and geometry without completely falsifying his transcript. You need to do what he can, and describe that honestly on his transcript. It may mean he has to start a a CC while he continues to get his math up to level. He may or may not be able to get into a non-competitive university with an honest transcript. However, falsifying his transcript will not do him any favors. It will just put him in a position that he can't maintain. 

 

I'm sorry if it hurts. Kids with special needs end up with a lot of hurts. I know. I have one too. It is hard to say you are smart, but you don't have the math skills for college right now. I would emphasize the right now and I would continue to do everything possible to fix it following exactly the steps listed above. I know you have been trying for years. I know you are frustrated and hurt that the way higher ed is setup is not fair to your ds. But he is going to have to work within the system. You have to keep helping him, not trying to cheat him through. Hang in there. 

:grouphug:

[Alison in KY]

You and I were posting at the same time, and I did not see this.  My post looks so insensitive coming straight after yours.  :crying:  I hear that you are working at it so diligently and I agree that the system is unfair.  I know that other disagree with me, but I would not even require Algebra 1 for certain kids that I tutor.  There would be much better and more useful classes for them.  I get *very* frustrated teaching kids how to use the quadratic equation when they can't even solve a basic word problem.  Someone has NOT thought this through.  But unfortunately, no one who sets policy has ever asked me!  I am not saying that you should require a serious class in Algebra 1 and Geometry course in order to list it on the transcript; I would totally make them 'light' courses and call it good.  But passing algebra 2 suggests a mastery of a *serious* algebra 1 class, and that is where you fall into trouble.  Algebra 2 is hard. Very hard.  And not all kids can get through it.  That does not mean their life is over.  Seriously, what percentage of the population uses Algebra 2 even occasionally?  It is not high.  So talk to the Colleges and find out how they handle kids like yours.  There has to be a way. You need to ask!

 

Ruth in NZ

 

Love this, thanks.

[Alison in KY]

I've written down all of the above suggestions of curriculum, etc.  Thank you all.  Honestly, I really wasn't looking for suggestions as much as I was looking for some in the same situation to discuss our situation and the handling of it.  And success stories, I really was hoping to hear of success stories :).  All that being said, I still do appreciate the suggestions.

 

I had the wonderful opportunity yesterday to speak with a local public school guidance and career counselor.  She was able to enlighten me on some of the confusion I had.  Bottom line is that right now in my state (KY) all kids are required to graduate with algebra 1, 2, and geometry.  I couldn't believe it, and I asked for clarification.  Every kid.  Now again, being a private school, I do not have to necessarily live by that.  However, I would not want to look that different in a transcript because of what my kids have an interest in, which is attending college.

 

I asked her how it's possible for all kids to pass those classes and be able to graduate, and she said it doesn't happen (me reading between the lines here I'm thinking they just don't flunk a kid out for math grades).  She said that often they will take algebra 1 stretched over 2 years, then do geometry and algebra 2.  Also, they will tutor, offer extra credit, etc.  I do not know what textbooks they use in this school.  This is an adjacent county with a smaller population and many farming families.

 

I can't tell you what a relief it is having that conversation with her.  I mean, I totally think it's crazy having all kids meet that requirement (and she agreed lol),  but I now understand that they are obviously helping kids all across this state get through the math.  So some of these kids are having teachers give credit, opportunities, etc.  I feel totally better about sitting down with my son and reviewing a math test where he's missed many problems from little inattentive mistakes and walking through the problems with his understanding, then moving on.   

 

Back 35 years or so ago when I was in public school we had a separation of classes from high, medium, and low.  Those kids doing great were high, and the strugglers were low...so we basically have low math going on here.

 

She was also able to clarify the getting into college grades/scores for me.  If my son can meet the overall ACT score of 18, then he's in (at least the 2 closest colleges).  However, if he doesn't meet that benchmark math score on ACT  then they will have him in a lower level math class.   I'm great with that, I just needed to hear he could get in.  For dual credit, with his current math scores, I believe he just would not be able to take a math class, but could do social sciences, English, etc.

 

I feel like a weight is lifted, just from talking to her and reading between the lines.  I'm not saying it's going to be easy for him, but it will be doable.  We are going to keep working through the math daily, with some added nighttime homework.  We will learn as much algebra and geometry as possible for him between now and college. 

 

BTW, any suggestions for an easy going geometry?  We're using Tabletclass for Algebra (well, actually pre-algebra, but several topics overlap).  I've found the edX geometry and will use that for a start. 

 

Alison

[Kalmia]

There are colleges specifically for kids with LDs (one reason you might want to have the documentation in place) and colleges with specific programs for kids with LDs. Here is a very quickly googled link. You could probably search this out at colleges in your region.

 

http://blog.prepscholar.com/the-18-best-colleges-for-students-with-learning-disabilities

[Arcadia]

Go to any of your closest community colleges' learning disabilities services office. You can ask them what paperwork is required and what services are offered. It is good to know now and you can compare answers from your two closest community colleges.

[OneStepAtATime]

OP, you might look at the AGS textbooks for math.  I am linking a site where you can see some of the pages inside the texts but you don't need to buy from them.  Too pricey.  Buy used on Amazon.  

 

http://www.wiesereducational.com/products/e_mathematics/

[Mom22ns]

MUS is the clearest, easiest geometry on the market. It has very few proofs, but covers everything on the ACT. It is perfect for struggling math students who just need to get it done. 

[kiana]

Power Basics or AGS. They are designed to give bare minimum high school credit for kids who are struggling in math and possibly other areas as well. 

 

As I said before, PS awards credit for these, and I would have absolutely no issue doing so. 

[MerryAtHope]

MUS worked great here too. I'm glad you were able to talk with the counselor and get some answers!