Scarlett Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 My son is almost 16 and he read very early, so it has been a while since I did this. But I have friends who have a dd who is really struggling to read. I offered to tutor her and they are thrilled. She is very intelligent. She is in danger of being held back again, because the teachers don't want her going into 3 rd grade without knowing how to read. Where do I start? I am thinking of starting from the beginning...asking her to name the letters for me and then the sound of each letter. Should I buy some flash cards? Other phonics material? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) Blumenfeld is my favorite default suggestion. The new Phonics for Success version is cheap and easy to purchase from Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/Phonics-Success-Samuel-L-Blumenfeld/dp/1495144216 Don Potter has supplements for the text, but sometimes less is more. http://www.donpotter.net/reading_clinic.html I do use Don Potter's First Readers Anthology. His manuscript handwriting is the same as Spalding; I use either. I do NOT use the Don Potter CURSIVE with leftie LD students. Not ever! I don't use any of the rest of the stuff, unless I am sure the student is firmly in the logic stage, and few nonreading 8 year old are. Students who cannot understand the difference between "after" and "because" only get grammar stage instruction from me. My people refer to it as the "throw up test" or "vomit" test". Students that cannot talk about their vomit with logic level understanding don't get logic level instruction from me. :lol: I don't know why, but all my students seem to have a puking episode early in their instruction with me, and want to tell me all about it, and I can just handily gauge some pretty important milestones from that conversation. I'm not sure what I'm going to do to test a healthy private student. :lol: Spalding, phonograms, and rules are reserved for logic level students only. Edited January 21, 2016 by Hunter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) Can you talk to the girl's teacher and ask for the teacher's opinion on why the girl is behind and what level the girl is reading at, explaining that the parent hired you to be her tutor? I'd start by figuring out what exactly she can and can't read - check out some books of different levels from the library and see what the highest level is that she can read fairly fluently (I'm not real fond of how Fountas & Pinnell do levels A-D though, but hopefully she can read a higher level than that) e.g. here is a list of books by level: http://www.booksource.com/Departments/Booksource/Leveled-Reading/Collections-By-Level.aspx Then, she can read for 30min+ every day* roughly on the level she's reading at - the lower the level she's currently reading at, the more preferable it is she reads out loud to someone so they can help her with words she doesn't get. I also would get a copy of Toe by Toe (you want to make sure you get a copy that hasn't been written in) and start at the beginning - if the beginning is really easy for her, she'll fly through it and only start to slow down when it gets hard. The authors recommend no more than 20min per day, and it'd be best if it was every day (on the bright side, the way it works it would be easy for you to do it some days and her parents some other days). If she's in public school, the parents need to send the school a written request to have her evaluated for reading disabilities etc - the school shouldn't just hold an 8yo back instead of providing intervention. If she's not in public school, they might want to try to get her evaluated anyway - not sure if they could still go through the public school system or not. The girl should also have an eye exam. *Unless she's at a very low level and/or is really refusing to try, in which case maybe 30min might be too much - IIRC, in K they required the kids to read 20min/day at home (and who knows how long at school, but presumably she's supposed to read at school too). ETA: if she's at a really very low reading level, you might also have to work on phonological awareness and the like. Do things like "what rhymes with cat" and "if I say /d/ /o/ /g/ what word is that (saying the sounds, not the letter names)". Edited January 21, 2016 by luuknam 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 21, 2016 Author Share Posted January 21, 2016 I believe she is very low level reading. I meet with her tomorrow for the first time. She is excited, so that is a bonus. So I think my first order of business is to access her reading level. I wonder if there is an online test for that....off to google. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 This doesn't test phonics, but it's very quick (especially if she is very low level, in which case you'd be done very quickly): http://facstaff.bloomu.edu/dwalker/Documents/San%20Diego%20Quick%20Assessment.pdf Here is a list of tests - are probably more, but maybe a starting point: http://blendphonics.org/?page_id=338 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 21, 2016 Author Share Posted January 21, 2016 Thank you! K12 has assessments by age....I am very familiar with that curriculum.....ds in his 10 year with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 She may have a reading disability such as dyslexia. Testing for that would be useful, IMHO. And using a dyslexia friendly reading program might also be a good idea. Intelligent, eager to learn, and exposure to teaching suggests that there is a reason she is having trouble. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudoMom Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 I'd get a copy of Phonics Pathways and begin at the beginning. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 21, 2016 Author Share Posted January 21, 2016 She may have a reading disability such as dyslexia. Testing for that would be useful, IMHO. And using a dyslexia friendly reading program might also be a good idea. Intelligent, eager to learn, and exposure to teaching suggests that there is a reason she is having trouble. Yes I am going to address that possibility after I assess her. She has an older brother who has many problems. So I am sure they haven't ruled out LD, it public schools often do a lousy job of teaching kids to read, so I want to just see what is going on with her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hepatica Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 The Barton pre-test might be a good place to start. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 She hasn't been tested and they are threatening to hold her back? I would push for comprehensive testing by the public schools, concurrent with your tutoring efforts. I would also try to get a hold of the reading book / workbook she uses in school, so you can see what "isn't" working. Good luck! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiara.I Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Also check her vision tracking. Hold a pencil and ask her to follow it with her eyes. Can she? Does one or both eyes jump around? Alternately (preferably) get her parents to get her vision checked with a COVD optometrist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 22, 2016 Author Share Posted January 22, 2016 She hasn't been tested and they are threatening to hold her back? I would push for comprehensive testing by the public schools, concurrent with your tutoring efforts. I would also try to get a hold of the reading book / workbook she uses in school, so you can see what "isn't" working. Good luck! I don't know for sure she hasn't been tested. I will find out though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiramisu Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) I don't know for sure she hasn't been tested. I will find out though. I'd be very curious about this. Since you mentioned she's intelligent, she may have been able to compensate for her weaknesses until now. Public schools won't usually test unless a child is failing. If she's been tested and has been found to have a problem, I can't imagine they could hold her back, legally. If there hasn't been testing, the parents should probably push for that. For your purposes, I would assume there's a problem if she's in third grade and can't read AND there's a family history. Start working with an Orton-Gillingham based program that's proven to help kids with dyslexia. Doesn't ElizabethB on these forums have online phonics lessons?...Yes! http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/228437-elizabeths-phonics-videos-reading-fluency/ And, as someone else pointed out, make sure she's had an eye exam, preferably with a covd.org optometrist. The thing is, this child could be feeling very down on herself. If the right approach isn't taken, to take account any vision problem or something like dyslexia, it could increase her frustration and wear away at her motivation. Edited January 22, 2016 by Tiramisu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiramisu Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 My son is almost 16 and he read very early, so it has been a while since I did this. But I have friends who have a dd who is really struggling to read. I offered to tutor her and they are thrilled. She is very intelligent. She is in danger of being held back again, because the teachers don't want her going into 3 rd grade without knowing how to read. Where do I start? I am thinking of starting from the beginning...asking her to name the letters for me and then the sound of each letter. Should I buy some flash cards? Other phonics material? I don't have dyslexics but I've heard from other moms who use those methods that they don't really teach phonics that way. I think they use a more phonogram-based approach. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiramisu Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 The Barton pre-test might be a good place to start. This seems to be a gold standard, according to people who are dealing with this kind of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 22, 2016 Author Share Posted January 22, 2016 I'd be very curious about this. Since you mentioned she's intelligent, she may have been able to compensate for her weaknesses until now. Public schools won't usually test unless a child is failing. If she's been tested and has been found to have a problem, I can't imagine they could hold her back, legally. If there hasn't been testing, the parents should probably push for that. For your purposes, I would assume there's a problem if she's in third grade and can't read AND there's a family history. Start working with an Orton-Gillingham based program that's proven to help kids with dyslexia. Doesn't ElizabethB on these forums have online phonics lessons?...Yes! http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/228437-elizabeths-phonics-videos-reading-fluency/ And, as someone else pointed out, make sure she's had an eye exam, preferably with a covd.org optometrist. The thing is, this child could be feeling very down on herself. If the right approach isn't taken, to take account any vision problem or something like dyslexia, it could increase her frustration and wear away at her motivation. She is in second grade. I agree something is going on. I will find out more. M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) nt Edited January 23, 2016 by OhElizabeth 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 22, 2016 Author Share Posted January 22, 2016 You CAN'T find out more, because what she needs is a CTOPP, WISC, and achievement testing. The CTOPP, a comprehensive test of phonological processing, is used to be very detailed in testing for the phonological processing issues of dyslexia. I'm sorry, but a child that bright doesn't need you. The school has an RTI process, and they've probably already done it. If she didn't learn to read with that, it's time for them to diagnose and get her OG. OG is THE standard for dyslexia instruction, and every day you use lesser tools like Phonics Pathways, you're KEEPING HER from getting qualified instruction. If you want to help her, yes do the Barton pre-test, but REFUSE to tutor her without a diagnosis and proper materials. The proper materials, if you want to do it, will be Barton. If she fails the pre-test, she may need LIPS first. Without diagnosis, she is losing accommodations, paper trail, access to services, protections. You are HARMING her by allowing her parents NOT to go through this process. She NEEDS the testing and diagnosis for her own good. Besides, a good OG tutor is $65 an hour in our area. If you really want to pay $200-400 a level for barton and give them tutoring services worth $65 an hour pro bono, that's your gig. Just realize what she actually needs. It probably ISN'T a $20 copy of PP from the library. Adding: The Barton pretest is NOT a test for dyslexia. It is only a test to see if the dc has enough baseline working memory and phonological processing even to go INTO Barton. https://bartonreading.com/students/#ss But I'm BEGGING you, do NOT tutor this child with Phonics Pathways and waste time. This child should have proper testing, get a proper diagnosis, and have access to proper tools. There *are* other things that can explain not reading. Vision, CAPD, hearing loss... When you give the parents a way to feel good without doing the HARD THING of getting the testing, you are keeping the child and parents from the information that would HELP her. This process is not fun and many people are scared. Don't let them use you as an excuse not to do the hard thing. Private or ps, either place can run the testing. It's only a matter of pricepoint. Private is typically more thorough, yes, and less biased, yes, but both places can get it done. You are doing a lot of assuming in this post. I have not even met with her one time. I am doing that today. I don't know if she has had any testing. She is in a terrible school IMO and I doubt her parents have been offered that option. It is something I can discuss with them. And I am not dong this for money. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 What "should" happen and what does happen are often not the same thing. I'm not sure this country even has the resources to meet the "shoulds". It is not uncommon for 8 year old to need remediation but not expensive dyslexic curricula taught by an expert. Some people, even adults, need nothing more than a cheap paperback of remedial phonics. I have seen it with my own eyes. How is it in a country with such vast resources that people can be shuffled through a system spending thousands of dollars a year on them, that no one makes sure they are exposed to $10-30 worth of phonics? I don't know. I just don't know. But it is part of why there is such a thing as homeschooling. People that teach remedial phonics in prisons know first hand that not all their adult students need or even benefit from O-G. Some just never learned any phonics. And there are adults with LDs other than dyslexia, especially those with just general lower IQ, that learn to read BETTER with things other than O-G. Some of them were not ready to read until about 10 years old, and no one stopped to teach them at that age. My oldest didn't read till 8, and O-G would have been a disaster with him. He was exposed to an excellent phonics program in K while a full 6 years old, in a higher-income public school and it accomplished NOTHING. I started introducing sight words, as that was how I learned to read, and made some progress with him. But he did not have the mental maturation to learn phonics and APPLY it to new words till he was 8. Two years later he was reading adult novels. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 22, 2016 Author Share Posted January 22, 2016 This child wants to be homeschooled. My friend's plan all along, and she has told this to her dd, is that when the child learns to read she will bring her home. My friend did not expect her dd to not be reading at age 8. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiara.I Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 This child wants to be homeschooled. My friend's plan all along, and she has told this to her dd, is that when the child learns to read she will bring her home. My friend did not expect her dd to not be reading at age 8. Well, that kind of boggles my mind. Your friend wants to homeschool. But cannot or will not teach her child to read, to the point where she would rather outsource it *twice*, once for pay. Has she considered that remediating reading might be an excellent way to start easing into homeschooling? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 22, 2016 Author Share Posted January 22, 2016 Well, that kind of boggles my mind. Your friend wants to homeschool. But cannot or will not teach her child to read, to the point where she would rather outsource it *twice*, once for pay. Has she considered that remediating reading might be an excellent way to start easing into homeschooling? She never thought it would be an issue. She thought by 2nd grade the child would be reading and she would bring her home. I think she and her husband are just now realizing that the school is not going to be able to teach this child to read. I too think the parents could do a better job than the school with this child, but I don't want to overwhelm them with all of my opinions at once. :) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 I know a child with ADHD in 3rd grade who has a reading tutor paid by the public school. Not sure if the school test for dyslexia but the child qualify for services because of her ADHD according to her mom. I know another 6th grader who gets one to one help because of ADHD from the public school for some subjects. See if the mom is willing to ask for an evaluation for dyslexia just to rule out the possibility. The initial eval is free through the district. Your friend wants to homeschool. But cannot or will not teach her child to read, to the point where she would rather outsource it *twice*, once for pay. It is easier to teach a child who could already read. I know many parents who outsource teaching reading to preschools or tutors because they don't think they have the patience to do it. Also once a child can read, if the mom can't cope with homeschooling every subject it is easier to outsource. For example my neighbor has an older child who isn't reading well and having difficulties in math. The tutor has to do everything verbally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) I have taught hundreds of remedial students....most did not have an underlying disability but just were suffering from poor methods. Nonsense words and focusing on just word lists and teaching phonics explicitly in isolation are what most of my students have needed. As I taught more and more students, I got more and more efficient, here is what I do, all you need is linked at the end and free to print. If you don't see progress after a month or two, then you need to start looking at underlying vision or speech or language processing problems, but 99% of poor readers coming out of schools are suffering from poor methods and show rapid progress when taught with sound phonics that includes nonsense words. http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/howtotutor.html Edited January 22, 2016 by ElizabethB 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) When you meet with her today, give the MWIA level I, the 40L quick start reading test, and the NRRF reading grade level test, the paragraph portion in part 2. The 40L test will show the type of phonics she has not been taught while giving you a grade level, and the slowdown on the MWIA will tell you how much you need to focus on nonsense words, 10 - 20%, a few minutes at the beginning and end of each session, 20 - 30%, 5 minutes at the beginning and end of each session, over 30%, a bit more each time or maybe a third short time in the middle. http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/readinggradeleve.html Edited February 10, 2016 by ElizabethB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) For motivated parents or parents who want to homeschool, I give a copy of my concentration game, it is something easy and fun they can do with their child and it helps a lot, just 5 to 10 minutes a day go a long way to breaking the guessing habit. Good luck, you can PM me scores and words missed on the tests if you want more insight, I tailor what I use based on scores and patterns of errors for even more efficient teaching. I make a second copy of the MWIA and 40L test and write what they said instead of the correct word on top of the word in question. I just tested a 2nd grade boy from one of the top 10 school districts in the nation, he is super smart...he is reading at a first grade level, does not know a single two letter vowel team, guesses a lot based on word shape, and had an over 30% slowdown. He is typical of what I see in a remedial student. I usually get a grade level of improvement for every 5 to 10 hours of work with focused word lists and nonsense words, then when they get to Webster they really take off and start to get a grade or two or even more above grade level. It actually takes longer with students in good schools because you have to work harder to undo the guessing habits, my fastest students were 2 formerly homeless 2nd grade boys in Los Angeles, they were reading 12th grade passages out of Webster's Speller after 6 sessions. Edited January 22, 2016 by ElizabethB 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FO4UR Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 She never thought it would be an issue. She thought by 2nd grade the child would be reading and she would bring her home. I think she and her husband are just now realizing that the school is not going to be able to teach this child to read. I too think the parents could do a better job than the school with this child, but I don't want to overwhelm them with all of my opinions at once. :) Ahh, then I think 1st step is to get them started on daily tutoring sessions. You can walk them through the process, and they will then have the confidence to just bring her home. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 Ahh, then I think 1st step is to get them started on daily tutoring sessions. You can walk them through the process, and they will then have the confidence to just bring her home. I agree! Once you figure out a good mix of materials with her and figure out what is working, get them helping, then doing more and more of the teaching at home, then taking over! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 22, 2016 Author Share Posted January 22, 2016 I agree! Once you figure out a good mix of materials with her and figure out what is working, get them helping, then doing more and more of the teaching at home, then taking over! Thank you. I just spent some time reading over your links and copying the tests off. I do not think I will do all of the assessments today. We are not meeting until 5:30 and I don't want to overwhelm her or her parents on the first day. I think the 40L quick screen is where I will start.....thoughts? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 22, 2016 Author Share Posted January 22, 2016 On the MWIA I only see the Phonetic II. Is there suppose to be a Phonetic I? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) On the MWIA I only see the Phonetic II. Is there suppose to be a Phonetic I? The level I test has both parts on one page. You time each part. Edited January 22, 2016 by ElizabethB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) Thank you. I just spent some time reading over your links and copying the tests off. I do not think I will do all of the assessments today. We are not meeting until 5:30 and I don't want to overwhelm her or her parents on the first day. I think the 40L quick screen is where I will start.....thoughts? Yes, you will get both grade level info and an idea of the type of phonics she is missing, I start with that test. I also give a few minutes break between each test and between each part of the MWIA. Edited January 22, 2016 by ElizabethB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) The MWIA level I is on page six, top half is holostic, bottom half is phonetic. Time each part, give a break between parts. With the phonetic portion, have her retry the missed words after spelling them...usually they have some phonics knowledge but it is not fully automated, if they can do it after spelling that tells you that this is true. The number of missed words does not change, though, if they missed 10 words at first but could read 8 of those correctly after spelling them, that just tells you additional info, it does not change the base score. Edited January 22, 2016 by ElizabethB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) nt Edited January 23, 2016 by OhElizabeth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMS83 Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 I love Phonics Pathways; have no idea about the individual child or challenges involved, though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 22, 2016 Author Share Posted January 22, 2016 The level I test has both parts on one page. You time each part. Ah. I see now. Thank you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 22, 2016 Author Share Posted January 22, 2016 Actually it's not assuming. Federal law mandates the school identify children with learning disabilities. The child should have been identified by the teachers and the school should have begun RTI (Response to Intervention). Many schools will do private reading instruction multiple days a week or even daily as part of this RTI process. Sometimes it will be OG, sometimes another "evidence-based" program. So if the school is following the LAW, they should have done RTI. Where it breaks down is if the parent doesn't follow through, the school doesn't follow the law, or the school requests evals and the parent does not sign the consent forms (for whatever reason). Also you can have situations where children stay in RTI indefinitely, which is not following the law. But if the school followed the LAW, she should, by this point, have had significant RTI. RTI is basically what PP would be. RTI is stepped up instruction to fill the gap for kids who maybe changed schools, are from an ESL situation, or otherwise need just an extra bit of help. So ask them upfront, did the school do RTI? Have they had a meeting to discuss evals and have they asked the parents for consent? This is FEDERALLY MANDATED. IDEA *requires* schools to identify children with disabilities, irrespective of whether the parents ask or not. Not saying they always do or that their instruction is good, however it is the law and has a process that many schools *are* following. I'm not trying to give you a hard time, honest. It's just coming up to speed on the system. Even horrible schools are, hopefully, following the law and going through this process. We have so much testing now, and testing triggers these things. They may have had RTI and not even realize it. Right and who decides a child needs to be identified as LD. You are assuming a bunch, including that all or even most public schools know what they are doing in these situations. But anyway, her parents are interested in her well being and education and I offered to take a look at her reading and see if I can help. Hopefully I won't do too much damage today. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 I love Phonics Pathways; have no idea about the individual child or challenges involved, though. Phonics Pathways is a great book, I used to use it as a primary resource but found things that worked faster, I still use it as a supplement for problem areas. Since switching to what I use currently, my students get to grade level about 5 times faster than with normal phonics, there are ways of working more efficiently with an older remedial student by combining basic phonics with multisyllable work, older students are more capable with multisyllable word work than younger students. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) Right and who decides a child needs to be identified as LD. You are assuming a bunch, including that all or even most public schools know what they are doing in these situations. But anyway, her parents are interested in her well being and education and I offered to take a look at her reading and see if I can help. Hopefully I won't do too much damage today. I'm actually genuinely interested to hear how it went. I don't know that you're actually asking, but the answer to your question is that there's an actual IEP process people go through, with quite a few protections in federal law. Dyslexia advocates have been working hard on these protections, and the Dept of Ed just released another advisory letter telling schools to actually USE the terms like dyslexia. Right now schools say SLD reading, and people don't know that it actually IS dyslexia!!! So you literally get in these odd situations where kids have been diagnosed and the parents can't advocate effectively because of this communication gap. The fact is that even in the school district I live in, where 60% of the kids live below the poverty level, where they don't teach phonics to all and they don't have OG for dyslexics, the fact is they DO have the same fancy tests my kid got at the $$$ private psych. ANY CHILD in this district can be given the CTOPP, the WISC, achievement testing, even the CELF (very detailed language testing) that my ds got privately. I know because my ds has an IEP and went through the ps process as well. And for as much as I really wish they were providing the BEST interventions for dyslexia, reality is kids CAN get diagnosed and there ARE procedures in place. They're testing earlier and more aggressively, which people don't like, but they use that testing to drive the RTI process. These improvements in identification and intervention have been driven by dyslexia advocates, and I just think it really does that progress a disservice to say oh the schools are crap, they get nothing right. IF they are following the law, the protections are there. Not the best interventions always, but *something*. And this family CAN get evals through the ps. They should have already had them in fact. So that's why, to me, it's more a curious thing to see what they say when you actually sit them down and talk. They may have already done some of the steps in this. If they haven't, they actually need to make their formal written requests and get it done. So the federal law mandates teachers make referrals for anyone they suspect of a disability. Diagnosis is made by the IEP team after a multi-factored evaluation, but the referrals typically begin with the teacher. They will often watch for a grading period, see things that concern them, begin RTI, and then at the end of that make the referral. If a parent suspects disabilities, they have the legal right at any time to make a formal written request for evals. I don't think it's a perfect system, but there's actually a lot of GOOD there for the student. They were square with us, and they diagnosed all 3 of my ds' SLDs in K5, something that is very unusual. If people are in that system for their education, they need to know how to intersect with it, how to get the diagnoses, how to get the protections and services of an IEP. Edited January 23, 2016 by OhElizabeth 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 23, 2016 Author Share Posted January 23, 2016 Ok, that was so much fun and just fascinating. On the 40L she scored .3. She missed 7 out of the first ten words....including the last 5 in a row. On MWIA ---Holistic she had 13 errors and read about 23 words per minute. On the Phonetic she had 32 errors and read about 8 words per minute. On the Holistic she mostly just passed on words she didn't know except for the word goat which she read as go at. On the phonetic her attempts were so interesting. Met as meet, sip as skip, mix as meeks, pass as place, rack as rake, jet as jeet, kid as kind/keed/kide, neck as neek, pick as pink, deck as deet, kick as keek, fuzz as fizz, mud as meed, hack as hake, sick as shake, hunt as heat, pest as please, Rush as roosh, rest as rate, bulk as blulk, hump as glump. Also she is being tutored after school twice a week. Has been all year. No improvement. School says she is testing at 1. 4....I think that is very generous. No phonics at all. She had never heard the word. School told parents if she isn't better by end of this year they will introduce a phonics remediation to her. So what do you think Elizabeth B? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) Ok, that was so much fun and just fascinating. On the 40L she scored .3. She missed 7 out of the first ten words....including the last 5 in a row. On MWIA ---Holistic she had 13 errors and read about 23 words per minute. On the Phonetic she had 32 errors and read about 8 words per minute. On the Holistic she mostly just passed on words she didn't know except for the word goat which she read as go at. On the phonetic her attempts were so interesting. Met as meet, sip as skip, mix as meeks, pass as place, rack as rake, jet as jeet, kid as kind/keed/kide, neck as neek, pick as pink, deck as deet, kick as keek, fuzz as fizz, mud as meed, hack as hake, sick as shake, hunt as heat, pest as please, Rush as roosh, rest as rate, bulk as blulk, hump as glump. Also she is being tutored after school twice a week. Has been all year. No improvement. School says she is testing at 1. 4....I think that is very generous. No phonics at all. She had never heard the word. School told parents if she isn't better by end of this year they will introduce a phonics remediation to her. So what do you think Elizabeth B? Sounds like she is suffering from ABT...ain't been taught. She needs to do every word in every lesson of a beginning phonics program, Blend Phonics may or may not be enough words, you might need Phonics Pathways if she needs more repetition for basic phonics, I like the phonovisual charts while they are learning sounds, if you order them they come in a 10 or 12 pack so one for you and one for parents, extras to share with your homeschool friends with young children. I will find a link to a black and white copy to print in the meantime. That is typical of a poorly taught child, the mistakes are typical, if a bit excessive, but I have seen that many errors in poor schools. With that big of a slowdown, she needs to be doing my phonics concentration game at least 5 or 6 days a week and do it at the beginning and end of tutoring. I also like We All Can read, the book only, not the online lessons, try a few samples of each and see if she can hack the 3rd grade and above font size and number of words, it is a good source of extra nonsense words. If not, get the version for K to 2nd grade. I would still do the things on my how to tutor page, but with that poor of results, she may need extra practice with basic phonics. She could also do Read, Write, Type at home daily, it is a fun way to learn basic phonics, it is online and reasonably priced for what you get and ease of use. Edited January 23, 2016 by ElizabethB 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 23, 2016 Author Share Posted January 23, 2016 Sounds like she is suffering from ABT...ain't been taught. She needs to do every word in every lesson of a beginning phonics program, Blend Phonics may or may not be enough words, you might need Phonics Pathways if she needs more repetition for basic phonics, I like the phonovisual charts while they are learning sounds, if you order them they come in a 10 or 12 pack so one for you and one for parents, extras to share with your homeschool friends with young children. I will find a link to a black and white copy to print in the meantime. That is typical of a poorly taught child, the mistakes are typical, if a bit excessive, but I have seen that many errors in poor schools. With that big of a slowdown, she needs to be doing my phonics concentration game at least 5 or 6 days a week and do it at the beginning and end of tutoring. I also like We All Can read, the book only, not the online lessons, try a few samples of each and see if she can hack the 3rd grade and above font size and number of words, it is a good source of extra nonsense words. If not, get the version for K to 2nd grade. I would still do the things on my how to tutor page, but with that poor of results, she may need extra practice with basic phonics. She could also do Read, Write, Type at home daily, it is a fun way to learn basic phonics, it is online and reasonably priced for what you get and ease of use. Thank you. She was just so adorable. So eager to learn. I told her learning to read was like stairs.....you need to go up one at a time and if you start missing steps it is hard to reach the top. She went to their staircase and demonstrated that concept. LOL.... 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 23, 2016 Author Share Posted January 23, 2016 I'm actually genuinely interested to hear how it went. I don't know that you're actually asking, but the answer to your question is that there's an actual IEP process people go through, with quite a few protections in federal law. Dyslexia advocates have been working hard on these protections, and the Dept of Ed just released another advisory letter telling schools to actually USE the terms like dyslexia. Right now schools say SLD reading, and people don't know that it actually IS dyslexia!!! So you literally get in these odd situations where kids have been diagnosed and the parents can't advocate effectively because of this communication gap. The fact is that even in the school district I live in, where 60% of the kids live below the poverty level, where they don't teach phonics to all and they don't have OG for dyslexics, the fact is they DO have the same fancy tests my kid got at the $$$ private psych. ANY CHILD in this district can be given the CTOPP, the WISC, achievement testing, even the CELF (very detailed language testing) that my ds got privately. I know because my ds has an IEP and went through the ps process as well. And for as much as I really wish they were providing the BEST interventions for dyslexia, reality is kids CAN get diagnosed and there ARE procedures in place. They're testing earlier and more aggressively, which people don't like, but they use that testing to drive the RTI process. These improvements in identification and intervention have been driven by dyslexia advocates, and I just think it really does that progress a disservice to say oh the schools are crap, they get nothing right. IF they are following the law, the protections are there. Not the best interventions always, but *something*. And this family CAN get evals through the ps. They should have already had them in fact. So that's why, to me, it's more a curious thing to see what they say when you actually sit them down and talk. They may have already done some of the steps in this. If they haven't, they actually need to make their formal written requests and get it done. So the federal law mandates teachers make referrals for anyone they suspect of a disability. Diagnosis is made by the IEP team after a multi-factored evaluation, but the referrals typically begin with the teacher. They will often watch for a grading period, see things that concern them, begin RTI, and then at the end of that make the referral. If a parent suspects disabilities, they have the legal right at any time to make a formal written request for evals. I don't think it's a perfect system, but there's actually a lot of GOOD there for the student. They were square with us, and they diagnosed all 3 of my ds' SLDs in K5, something that is very unusual. If people are in that system for their education, they need to know how to intersect with it, how to get the diagnoses, how to get the protections and services of an IEP. I don't doubt this is true, I am just saying I don't believe this girl is to the point of needing extensive testing. After a few months of help if she is not making progress I would think then she might need further evaluation. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 I also thinking not so Christian thoughts about her teachers and tutors who are going to wait a year to actually teach her anything that might actually help her... But they are a product of the Ed schools, I try to just stay mad at the Ed Schools, it is not the teachers' fault. I think Rudolph Flesch, the author of "Why Johnny Can't Read," might have gotten a bit more traction if he had be less sarcastic and more merciful to the teachers and schools, but he butted heads with them for 30 years with little change, so I can understand his frustration. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storygirl Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 I'm wondering what the current tutor has been doing with her. Can you find out? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 23, 2016 Author Share Posted January 23, 2016 [quote name="Storygirl" post="6799268" timestamp="145352220 I'm wondering what the current tutor has been doing with her. Can you find out? The parents think it has been more study hour than actual tutoring. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 If they are still sending home sight words with her, make sure the parents are teaching them phonetically, not as wholes by sight. They can read my sight word page to find out why and how. http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/sightwords.html Also, if her current tutors are doing the daily 5, sight words, guided reading, or balanced literacy, she is better off stopping the tutoring and focusing on phonics, the phonics will take longer if she is getting whole word methods at the same time. Actually, if they are doing any of those in school, she is better off at home doing nothing or just the Read, Write, Type and some basic math until her parents figure out what to do to homeschool her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Also, leveled readers are bad if they use those, they are based on sight words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 I found my scores for a 3rd grade boy who missed that many words (the equivalent, he took the MWIA II.) He went through my class twice before his errors were down to the single digits, here is before and after the first class, he was from an inner city school. He was a nice, smart boy, too, it is so sad. After the 2nd class his slowdown was around 30% or a bit less, I can't find his second class results. But, his mom helped out with the 2nd class and learned how to work with him and play the nonsense word game so he was on his way to even more improvement after we moved. He really liked the nonsense word game, I have a funny video of him dancing and singing "I beat you, I beat you" after he finally beat one of the volunteer tutors he was playing against!! NRRF 0 (He would have gotten around a .5 on the 40L test, I think.) MWIA 48, 21; 15, 60 slowdown 56% (estimated phonetic time, stopped 2/3 of way through) Holistic 15 errors: goo for gown, kit for kite, kits for kites, not for know, ? for lots, pop for plop, rank for rake, sit for sat, ? for shake, ? for shame, shin for shine, ? for sunny, time for tame, theirs for these, went for want Phonetic 42 errors, stopped 2/3 of the way through, estimated 60 errors for whole thing, 1 self correct. Errors: mess for mass, rub for rob, shub for sob, pudding for pup, muss for moss, slip for sip, hem for hum, kep for kept, ? for notch, tess for thrash, ? for chink, ? for tax, whis for whisk, ? for melt, ? for prompt, stepped for step, bring for bangs, meld for mend, mop for monk, ax for ash, ? for grunt, sand for stand, gan for gang, spilt for spit, ? for cuffs, ? for mink, wiped for wept, ? for seat, click for chick, led for lend, ? for mist, glues for gulps, draft for drift, srank for snag, ? for quench, mot for moth, filt for flint, lifes for lifts, shraps for strip, ? for crib, rep for reap, ? for moist After NRRF 3rd grade MWIA 53, 23; 10, 31 slowdown 60% Holistic 10 Errors: gown, kite, kites, pack, pick, plop, shame, sank, tall, tricks Phonetic 31 Errors, 5 self-correct, moss, prompt, gang, spit, scat, gulps, snag, quench, sketch, moth, lifts, reap, stir, foil, birch, sueal, lark, brawl, beast, dawn, torn, hound, spout, draw, cork, coo, spook, wheat, beam, chirp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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