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I am at my wit's end tryng to teach my two middle kids writing. They're 6th grade and 4th grade. We have tried everything under the sun and I am convinced that writing is like spelling.... You either have it or you don't. There is some middle ground where instruction can be useful, but for the most part, you either have or you don't. And I don't mean the mechanics of writing. I mean the ability to put thoughts down coherently down on paper. They have done Rod & Staff all along, this year we switched to Bob Jones because it seems to me BJ has a little more specifically directed writing assignments. I am so frustrated. And it's not that I think there's really anything wrong with them. I've taught school before and graded essays. You've got a few kids that write really well. Some kids who write fairly well and editing is pretty easy... Fix that run-on, this sentence needs a subject, etc. and then some kids where you look at their essay and you don't even know where to begin to fix what is wrong with it. Two of my three oldest who are at that stage are writing are like that. We have done "topic sentences" and "idea webs" and every other prop and graphic organizer out there to try to organize their thoughts, but nothing ever sticks.

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Have you tried Lucy Calkins?  I teach English 101 at a community college, and I am very impressed with the writing I'm seeing from my DD's 5th grade class.  Her teacher says they are using this method, and she is a big fan.  I will say that while college comp students do not often make huge gains over the 15 weeks that I see them, I definitely think precepts of good writing can be taught, especially to younger students who are willing to put in the necessary time and effort.

 

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I am at my wit's end tryng to teach my two middle kids writing. They're 6th grade and 4th grade. We have tried everything under the sun and I am convinced that writing is like spelling.... You either have it or you don't. There is some middle ground where instruction can be useful, but for the most part, you either have or you don't. And I don't mean the mechanics of writing. I mean the ability to put thoughts down coherently down on paper. They have done Rod & Staff all along, this year we switched to Bob Jones because it seems to me BJ has a little more specifically directed writing assignments. I am so frustrated. And it's not that I think there's really anything wrong with them. I've taught school before and graded essays. You've got a few kids that write really well. Some kids who write fairly well and editing is pretty easy... Fix that run-on, this sentence needs a subject, etc. and then some kids where you look at their essay and you don't even know where to begin to fix what is wrong with it. Two of my three oldest who are at that stage are writing are like that. We have done "topic sentences" and "idea webs" and every other prop and graphic organizer out there to try to organize their thoughts, but nothing ever sticks.

 

I just don't think we need to put that much effort into teaching children how to write. I don't.

 

I would do Rod and Staff and that's it. No extra stuff like "idea webs" or graphic organizers or anything. Just..R&S. FTR, writing really picks up in the 7th grade text.

 

If not R&S, then my choice would be Easy Grammar plus Writing Strands, and that's all.

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I don't claim to be an expert on writing, but it may just take time for things to "stick". A lot of times as a child I would work just to finish the assignment as I was instructed to finish it (usually according to an essay form). Then I'd say, "Whew! Glad that's over. Where's my notebook so that I can get back to writing fiction?" I never once figured out that an essay could be interesting to read, and even more interesting to write...I figured that people only wrote essays for teachers with dusty hair and dusty glasses sitting behind dusty desks. I had no clue that they could be an art form. Might be one reason that I'm actually excited to teach my boys the essay this year. 

 

As far as improving ideas and cohesion, the very first thing I'd do is figure out what they really want to write about. That helps.

Make sure the topic chosen is not too large. Big things are hard to order. It's like trying to put together a puzzle. You get lost in the pieces until you pick a part of the picture to work on and focus on finding the right colors and shapes just for that one area.

It might be a good idea to work on an oral paragraph or an oral outline. I still do this with both boys for some of the plots we are studying right now. They used to use our outlines as copywork. Now they practice taking notes. We do a lot of talking through what we want to write. I've lost count of how many times one or the other will run to me and ask for input on a sentence or a section of writing. "Does this make sense?", "Do you understand this?", "Can you see this?"  We do a lot of brainstorming informally, and so much of what we do is not about writing. It's about thinking about what you want to say, or what you want your reader to see in your words. 

Most of all, we have fun. All our writing that we do is about really playing around with words, seeing if we can improve on a model that we are working with, coming up with new and interesting things to do with language. 

And don't expect it to stick. Writing is like using an entirely new language. Sometimes I think we act like it should be natural, when we wouldn't expect a child with a decent grasp of Latin grammar to translate Virgil just as soon as he's got down the basics of verbs and nouns. It takes a lot of time, a lot of practice and just plain messing around and messing up to learn the art of writing.

 

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I am at my wit's end tryng to teach my two middle kids writing. They're 6th grade and 4th grade. We have tried everything under the sun and I am convinced that writing is like spelling.... You either have it or you don't. There is some middle ground where instruction can be useful, but for the most part, you either have or you don't. And I don't mean the mechanics of writing. I mean the ability to put thoughts down coherently down on paper. They have done Rod & Staff all along, this year we switched to Bob Jones because it seems to me BJ has a little more specifically directed writing assignments. I am so frustrated. And it's not that I think there's really anything wrong with them. I've taught school before and graded essays. You've got a few kids that write really well. Some kids who write fairly well and editing is pretty easy... Fix that run-on, this sentence needs a subject, etc. and then some kids where you look at their essay and you don't even know where to begin to fix what is wrong with it. Two of my three oldest who are at that stage are writing are like that. We have done "topic sentences" and "idea webs" and every other prop and graphic organizer out there to try to organize their thoughts, but nothing ever sticks.

Well there *is* SLD writing (one of my ds' labels), but that's with a difficulty getting thoughts onto paper.  It *sounds* like what you're saying is their writing is totally disorganized, hard to follow, etc.  So when you say it doesn't stick, you mean they don't then apply it and use the skills independently the NEXT time?  Or you mean their work is disorganized and they are unable to turn out something organized even WITH the tools?

 

There are better tools you can try.  To expect them to apply those tools independently, that's different.  But yes, you can step up to better tools.  And those better tools cross labels, so they can be good for kids with dyslexia, ADHD, kids who are just struggling for whatever reason.

 

One of the most *flexible* tools you can try is Inspiration software.  There's a younger version, Kidspiration, as well.  Inspiration is FABULOUS, because it lets you take the VSL thoughts of kids and turn them into something linear.  Look at how linear WTM/SWB is.  Look at how linear BJU is.  Then look at your kids and see how their minds are maybe pictures and ideas with lots of connections but maybe not things that line up into neat lines and outlines, kwim?  So then we DUMP our thoughts into the software with tons of bubbles.  Just dump, dump, dump.  Then we start making connections, groupings, clumpings.  Then we hit the button and SHAZAM!!! our map converts into an outline!!  

 

Seriously, it's that magical.  And I think the reason it works is because it doesn't force kids who AREN'T LINEAR to try to become linear.  It admits that they're connected thinkers and that they're seeing so many connections that they can't put it into a form other people recognize.  

 

The trick then is to have them put EVERYTHING into that Inspiration web.  Everything.  Every supporting detail, illustration, etc.  My dd did this for a very large project, and she had a HUGE, did I mention YUUUUGGGEEE web.  Worked great!  My dh, bless his soul, actually really likes to write.  He has a lot to say, and what he wants to say in his writing is important to him.  But when he tries to write, it's SO HARD.  And his paragraphs, oh my goodness.  Like really horrible.  And people get snowed cuz they're like wow I know you said something really neat but I can't follow it...  So I come in and edit it.  And I've tried and begged him to use Inspiration.  No dice.  And it's not because it's so hard.  I think it's just that people get stuck.  It's a new mindset, a different mindset.  But once you realize, ok I'm a connected thinker with a lot of ideas, and maybe I'm one of those people who forgets things and loses great ideas because they just poof, well then going through that intermediate step of making a map with the software can actually be really helpful!  

 

With the 6th grader, you're right on the cusp of pushing over to do WWS1.  You can use Inspiration with WWS1, absolutely.  You could use Inspiration to map articles they find of interest, like science magazine articles.  I had my dd map Muse magazine articles years ago.  I like WWS1 (with reservations) because of that toolbox approach to writing.  I think it makes a lot more sense for people who are linear, and it's easier than demanding they be linear thinkers and being frustrated when they apply only temporarily and then revert right back.  I think it's a more long-term solution to connect with how THEY think and then convert it over.  But that's gonna take a lot of diligence and a Vygotsky, paired mentoring sort of approach to the writing.  The more you pair and do it with them, the more natural it will get.  I would pair, help them use the software, and help it work.  I would expect no independence for a while.  If you were to do something like WT2 (which you actually could do with those ages, yes), they might get independent.  Then you'd have to ramp up the support when you went into the next level of material.  If you want to do WT2, you could do a story, as in 2 weeks worth, each week and get through it by the end of the year.

 

Jeffrey Freed, in his book Right Brained Children in a Left Brained World, suggests a similar paired writing.  In fact, he takes it one step further and suggests YOU write it for them!  Seriously.  And you could do this.  But I would try to figure out what's going on in their brains.  Do they type?  My dd swore up and down on a stack of bibles (I kid you not) that she WOULD NOT BE A WRITER.  She's like I'm not like you Mom, I don't write just for pleasure, blah blah.  Between, I forget, I think 6th and 7th, we did some metronome work using Heathermomster's instructions.  They're free, easy to implement, and take maybe 15 minutes a day.  We did metronome work and threw in digit spans.  I paid her highly to learn to type.  Something clicked, and BAM that fall she started writing prolifically, even entering fan fiction contests!!!  I kid you not.  The same kid who SHED BLOOD when asked to write anything before.  

 

So do not think that the way it is now is the way it will stay.  But I do think you can give them those tools, with typing proficiency, improved working memory (to hold their thoughts!), metronome work to build a bit of EF and ability to motor plan and think about the same time, Inspiration software, mentoring instead of assigning.  And some kids click later too.  Dd was 12, but some kids get that bump at 14 or even 16. I think you have to believe the language is in there, support the process, and let it come when it's ready.  

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Having thoughts and ideas comes before being able to write, so I try to make sure I fill my kids up with read-alouds and audio books and beautiful memory work. 

 

I've taught writing classes to homeschool kids for a decade and the ones that couldn't get a cohesive paragraph onto paper after some coaching and demonstrating and practice were the ones who didn't read for pleasure and who were interested in very few areas (as long as we're talking ages 10+ - younger than that and it's probably a developmental leap they haven't made yet).

 

Your kids are old enough to be writing, but might be burnt out on trying before they were ready or on approaches that didn't work for them. Maybe don't do any writing for the rest of the year and come back at it fresh next school year?

 

I don't start teaching composition until 4th or 5th grade. Before that, they need lots of language exposure, idea exposure, oral narration, and interest cultivation. Then, in middle school, they can learn to write. I see no need to start before age 10 or 11.

 

 

Here's how I teach writing without a curriculum: www.simplyconvivial.com/2016/teach-writing-without-curriculum

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Having thoughts and ideas comes before being able to write, so I try to make sure I fill my kids up with read-alouds and audio books and beautiful memory work.

 

I've taught writing classes to homeschool kids for a decade and the ones that couldn't get a cohesive paragraph onto paper after some coaching and demonstrating and practice were the ones who didn't read for pleasure and who were interested in very few areas (as long as we're talking ages 10+ - younger than that and it's probably a developmental leap they haven't made yet).

 

 

That's an interesting thought. My children have been exposed to good literature from day one. They are read aloud to every day, several times. But, none of them read for pleasure. And they can read. They learned to read at the average age (kindergarten/first grade) and never really showed any problems in learning to read. I always figured they are average. Dd will occasionally read in bed before she goes to sleep, but her interests are fairly limited. She likes the American Girl books. DS reads occasionally, too, but I was an avid reader at their age. I always had a book in hand. And I also loved writing. I went to Public School and as soon as I finished my math lesson I'd write stories for my teacher.
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KrissiK, when my oldest dd was in 4th grade, none of her writing was logically organized. We would outline, organize, etc before she wrote, but when she sat down to complete her assignments, the products were nothing more than a rambling mess. I decided to go back to the very basics, how-to paragraphs. She spent weeks writing simple how-to paragraphs: how to bake cookies, how to make the perfect s'more, how to make a paper boat, etc. They instilled logical order and cohesion bc if the steps were out of order, the directions made no sense. When we left them behind, she had more confidence in her herself and you could see it in her writing.

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My current 4th grader is using Writing Tales 1 and will use Writing Tales 2 next year.  I have used WT with all three of my homeschooled kids.  It is gentle and perfectly sufficient for this age/grade, IMO.

 

My natural bent is to stuff the kids full of well-written books for most of elementary school before expecting much output at all.  My older ds is not one to read much for pleasure, works very, very slowly at all academics, and has some LD's, and I would describe him as an adequate writer. It took him almost three years to get through WWS1.  My younger ds who has done more reading for pleasure and has no barriers to academic work in the form of LD's is a pretty good writer.  He was resistant to every writing program I handed him past Writing Tales 2, but he can write well enough in spite of that.  Little dd is a natural writer and enjoys writing creatively.  She is also a voracious reader with an advanced vocabulary.  I plan to put her in WWS1 in 6th grade.  

 

My boys worked through a Killgallon program and How to Write a Paragraph one summer.

 

The kids who read tend to write well, in agreement with a PP.

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That's an interesting thought. My children have been exposed to good literature from day one. They are read aloud to every day, several times. But, none of them read for pleasure. And they can read. They learned to read at the average age (kindergarten/first grade) and never really showed any problems in learning to read. I always figured they are average. Dd will occasionally read in bed before she goes to sleep, but her interests are fairly limited. She likes the American Girl books. DS reads occasionally, too, but I was an avid reader at their age. I always had a book in hand. And I also loved writing. I went to Public School and as soon as I finished my math lesson I'd write stories for my teacher.

 

I think there is a "natural bent" aspect to it, as you stated in your first post, but I have noticed a strong correlation between the two. I don't know if we can manufacture or guarantee varied interests or avid reading (though I've also see a strong correlation with screen time, too), but I think writing expectations should follow the language bent we see overall - and I think we can address the bigger picture then and not just the mechanics of writing. Finding ways to broaden interests or encourage reading (or maybe even story analysis of movies) will indirectly but certainly help with writing ability down the road. They're linked and related, even when the topics they're writing about aren't. 

 

I'm also big into Myers-Briggs personality typing, and I think there are some personality types definitely wired more toward the doing and present-moment living than the thinking and writing. Writing is much more about thinking skills than mechanics. If they're doers rather than idea people, writing is going to be much more difficult and may not come easily. That doesn't mean it's something to give up on (just like head-in-the-clouds idea people need social skills), but it's a natural tendency to acknowledge and work with rather than fight and ignore. 

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I can only commiserate.  DD is an editing disaster and it hasn't improved all that much since I took her out of public school.  She writes well from an idea and structure POV, but the editing - ugh.  I am convinced her sloppiness is due to rushing and carelessness and just "getting the job done", a leftover of public school when they had to write an essay per day without much guidance or time to think and ponder what they were doing.  I haven't been able to break the habit, honestly.

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I think it just takes time and consistency with a little creativity when using whatever curr you're using. I know most of my 5 average kids weren't writing well until they were teens or late teens. Yet, if their college professors are to be believed, all 5 are excellent writers - now. And the odds of all 5 being natural writers aren't great. They had to have learned it somewhere in our rather chaotic hs'ing process.

 

I'm not sure how they learned to write, honestly. We used many curr's, combined curr's, just whatever I found that looked good. Even ancient books on writing (cheap on used book sites). The only 2 that I remember that all 5 finished were Writing Strands (which they hated) and ABeka Grammar and Composition. And I had them do a little book about research and writing research papers when they were older. All the rest, we dabbled with, played with, ditched if it got too suffocating or stupid.

 

I didn't do a whole lot of editing when there were learning. I think they picked up a lot of that in ABeka over the years ... 'years' being the keyword there.

 

Also, if they brought me an assignment that was just plain stupid, I said that (usually in WS). Ex. "Wow. What a stupid thing to write about. Choose another topic and make sure you use the techniques they're wanting you to learn when you write the paper." Followed by some discussion as to exactly what techniques the curr is trying to teach in the assignment.

 

It could be you're just expecting too much for their ages. None of my kids even read well before about 8-12yo, much less wrote coherently. In fact, I remember when we began WTM and ds's were 14yo and 16yo. I was satisfied if they wrote more than one page (handwritten) that made a little bit of sense. Yet, we kept working at it and somewhere along the line it just all came together. Ds says it had a lot to do with all the good books they had to read. I don't know. Probably so.

Thanks for this. I think I may expect a lot from them, probably because when I was their age I would just write pages and pages. I still have those little stories and they were actually pretty good for a child. They had dialogue and everything. But, my kids aren't me. I will try to be consistent and look at things with a longer view in mind.
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My DS11's perfectionism hinders him from writing for me or hubby. Writing for someone else takes a long time for him to start but it is not bad when he finish. This kid did the 5-traits workbook for non-fiction writing and freewrite for fiction.

 

Maybe asking your kids if they want to write an article for kids magazine like Cricket might help.

 

With my DS11 (6th), what I also find was that he wrote very well for his literature analysis for his outside class last year. He picked that class because the books being analysed were mythology which he loves. Also my expectation is a little on the high side, what I think is normal my hubby think is above average. He wrote one of those choose your own endings short novels for fun, not assigned work.

 

My DS10 has quantity, grammatically okay but not coherent. It is like reading a disjointed mind map. He is slowing getting there on the flow of thoughts part. His short response answers for literature was alright.

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Krissi, I got this cd from IEW.  It's a 2-hr. seminar on how to use the program and the cost is only $10.  I'm only about halfway through, but I think that it has enough instruction in it to figure out how to use their system.  And it looks really good for kids who don't know how/what/why to write.  


 

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I am at my wit's end tryng to teach my two middle kids writing… the ability to put thoughts down coherently down on paper...

… some kids where you look at their essay and you don't even know where to begin to fix what is wrong with it. Two of my three oldest who are at that stage are writing are like that. We have done "topic sentences" and "idea webs" and every other prop and graphic organizer out there to try to organize their thoughts, but nothing ever sticks.

 

We had an average writer (DS#1) and a struggling writer with mild LDs (DS#2) here. Neither "clicked" with putting thoughts down coherently on paper until at least age 14. This is now my 3rd year of teaching Lit. & Comp to gr. 7-12 students, and it completely confirms my observation. I truly think that "thinking of what to write" and then organizing it into some coherent flow does not come until the logic and abstract thinking portions of the student's brain start to mature. So before that time, and during that maturation time, the only thing I see that works is tons and tons of one-on-one scaffolding, and talking the student through the process, and asking a bazillion questions to gently draw the thoughts out of them and guide them into how to structure their thoughts.

 

Here, DS#1 managed to start consistently jumping that hurdle of coherent, organized writing at about age 14-15. DS#2 with the LDs just *started* to click with this about age 17-18, and it was his first year after high school, in Community College classes, where it started to become more natural and "second nature" to him. Just wanted to say that both earned "A"s in their Writing 101 and 102 classes, with the same rigorous teacher -- DS#1 even CHOSE to do Honors English to challenge himself.  :svengo:

 

So, it WILL click. But probably not for awhile for your 4th and 6th graders. (Hopefully sooner than it did for my DS#2!)

 

And yes, there are students who are natural writers, who can do this from a much younger age. But, alas, that does not seem to be your 4th and 6th graders. So. Patience. Gentle perseverance. Small bites and short sittings for writing -- do no more than a single paragraph for an assignment. And do it in multiple steps (each step done at a different time to allow the brain to shift gears to handle using a different required skill) to emphasize that writing is a process:

1. brainstorming

2. organizing into an outline, mind map, or other structure

3. rough draft - writing from the structure

4. revision - adding what is missing/subtracting what doesn't fit/refining your thoughts

5. proof-editing - nitty-gritty of GUM (grammar usage punctuation)-- capitalization, verb tense agreement, spelling corrections, etc.

 

And throughout, lots of gentle help and guidance FROM you -- and lots of chocolate (or other soothing aid of choice) FOR you. ;)

 

 

 I am so frustrated...

 

Gently: how about taking a break this semester from overseeing this process and outsourcing. I strongly recommend putting the 6th grader into a Bravewriter online class, and have the 4th grader do Wordsmith Apprentice (done virtually solo). That gives YOU a break, to not have to deal with anyone's writing. The 4th grader can be at least doing a bit of writing each day with WA and isn't likely to kill off writing for him entirely (both DSs here were extremely writing phobia at that age, and both actually enjoyed WA). And, a Braverwriter class gives the 6th grader a chance for input from someone who specializes in writing, plus the ability to learn how to think about writing

 

In contrast, both R&S and BJU are VERY traditional in the way they present writing instruction, which is probably NOT a good fit if you have non-traditional, non-sequential learners.

 

Another option for your 6th grader might be Jump In. Written to the student, informal tone, focus is helping the student think of something to say, and then how to organize those thoughts. You may want to wait until 7th grade, as I actually think the program works best for 7th-8th graders, and even late-bloomer 9th graders -- even though it says it's for grades 5-8. Previous posters have also given good recommendations: texasmama's plug for Killgallon's Paragraph Writing (to practice-till-perfect in writing just one paragraph), MerryAtHope's suggestion of Essentials in Writing (to give you a break) and 8FillTheHeart's idea of loads of 1-paragraph "process" paragraphs that make the student order the steps for "how to" do something.

 

Hang in there, Krissi! And BEST of luck in finding your path through the Writing conundrum! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited by Lori D.
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