Classic novels and Language issues

[sixpence1978]

Any tips on how to start introducing more classic works when language is an issue?  I tried starting Tom Sawyer with my 12 year old today.  Me reading to her, but she struggled so much with understanding it, that I was forced to concede that we weren't quite ready for that yet.  My question is, how can I get her ready for more demanding pieces of literature?

[imagine.more]

We've had some success utilizing the Classic Starts abridged versions of classics. Because DD14 is never truly going to get to the level required for in-depth analysis I figure the goal of classic literature is cultural literacy and general exposure to good quality language and stories. So abridged classics, while maybe not ideal for most kids, are just fine in these situations. And if in the future she's ready for the unabridged versions in a few years she'll already have a general overview of the storyline by reading the abridged kid version which will actually be good! 

 

One other thing we're doing is focusing on reading the classic 1000 good books. Even if DD14 never reads the 100 Great Books I'll feel good if she got those 1000 Good Books, all that classic children's literature that have good language and memorable stories. Memorial Press has good reading lists, as does Sonlight. 

[mom2bee]

Are you reading the original or an abridged version?

 

I have no BTDT experience, and depending on her particular language struggles my suggestion to try a good quality audiobook performance of a classic might be all out useless.

 

There are often audio Dramatizations of many different classic works in the public domain, so perhaps hearing it performed by a cast could help with comprehension?

 

[EKS]

My older son has dyslexia. I would keep reading. Sometimes it takes a while to develop an ear for it. I would be sure to pick books that you think she will particularly like, especially at first.

[PeterPan]

You can google comprehension strategies or look at your library or amazon.  I've read some books on this specifically for comprehension with autism.  Do you know what is underlying her comprehension issue?  Have you tried lit guides?  You can usually find some by googling and they're often free.  The Lit Wits kits are supposed to be REALLY good. Most of what I read seemed to indicate things that already make sense after you think about it, like pre-teaching vocabulary, setting the scene by discussing the time period and things from the book, etc. etc.  

 

I also think it's common to have some list tell us to read a book maybe before our kids are ready for it.  Kids really just vary.  I'd even be tempted to use the movie as a springboard to the book, depending on the kid.  Or use the movie of Tom Sawyer (if that particular book is important to you), then use a *short story* for her introduction to the written version.  

[Guest]

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Edited February 10, 2016 by Guest

[*****]

We have listened to so many novels and great unabridged classics on audio cd's available at our local  library (especially while driving to lessons, before bed, or anytime). My children don't have learning challenges, but I feel for any child, audiobooks are wonderful!  We listened to both Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer (kids were gr. 6 and 10 at the time).

 

Because these stories were so difficult to read due to the dialect differences, they were entertaining and enjoyable to listen to.  I must admit I had never read these classics myself, and I thoroughly enjoyed them this way!  Later, if needed, your child will be more ready to read these classics since they would be more familiar with the language and vocabulary. Also, this way, your child will listen to more stories because he can listen to them while you drive...

 

Listening to stories are just as good as reading them, especially for those with reading and language difficulties, so don't feel guilty!

 

Besides the 2 listed above, some of our other favorites include: Cricket in Times Square, Pictures of Hollis Woods, Castle in the Attic, and several by Roald Dahl. Enjoy!

[shinyhappypeople]

Maybe employ scaffolding?  For example, start with short stories by Mark Twain to familiarize her with his language and style.  You could work on Celebrated Jumping Frog of Calaveras County first, which is funny, accessible, and short before moving into one of his longer works.  Once your daughter has a feel for the language, Tom Sawyer might be easier to follow.

 

This approach could work for other authors as well.  If the author hasn't written any short stories, a short story by a different author from the same time period, with similar language and style might also work.

 

[SnMomof7]

Have you worked on easier child-oriented classic lit in tr past? I'm thinking of Heidi, Black Beauty, Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm type books before trying Twain? It can help to choose works of increasing 'difficulty' to ease into things.

[PeterPan]

My ds' comprehension issues are in spite of sky high vocabulary.  They show up in his CELF5 language processing scores, and they're considered due to EF (executive function).  For him, *repeated listenings* make a huge difference.  The CELF scores showed that where his single sentence comprehension was very low, his comprehension increased with larger samples.  So for him, if he listens to an audiobook 3-5 times, his comprehension is improved.  

 

For him, what I've actually been doing to improve his comprehension is to improve his single sentence comprehension using speech therapy materials.  For him, the vocabulary is not the problem but the actually grammar, noticing the bits, knowing what they mean.  There are also some workbooks by DeGaetano like Visualizing, Verbalizing, and Remembering and other books on auditory comprehension.  

 

That's why I think it's important to know *why* she's not comprehending.  My ds has a gifted IQ and 99th percentile vocabulary.  You'd never imagine that you could say a single sentence to him and that he doesn't actually COMPREHEND it.  If she's had some evals or you know her other challenges, you might be able to sleuth out the explanation to work on it better.  Reading comprehension and auditory comprehension are definitely within the perview of a good SLP.  They can do language testing and tell you *why* she's having that trouble. I would even be asking basic questions, like how does she do with background noise, does she understand the audiobook better if she wears headphones/earbuds, etc.

 

Lit guides, comprehension charts, these are all good strategies to help kids with EF issues.  But it helps you target your approach if you know what's going on.  Of course, I say all that, and my dh, probable dyslexic, doesn't understand dialects like that.  He just doesn't understand them.  If the book is that important, you might make a big chart together on craft paper showing the major words that are difference and discussing them, maybe making fun sentences with them yourself.  And if it's Twain that is the issue, only Twain, I would move on.  

[Heathermomster]

Any tips on how to start introducing more classic works when language is an issue? I tried starting Tom Sawyer with my 12 year old today. Me reading to her, but she struggled so much with understanding it, that I was forced to concede that we weren't quite ready for that yet. My question is, how can I get her ready for more demanding pieces of literature?

Are the concepts in the literature difficult or are the Southern colloquialisms too much?

 

When DS was 5th and 6th grade, he completed hands-on book reports. At a younger age, he wrote beginning, middle, and ends for each chapter, and he drew story maps about the story's setting and people. The story maps were very simple.

 

For difficult stories, we watch documentaries or read info online about the author to help establish a context. If the story is historical, we try to look at the customs and times in which the story was written. We watch adaptations on Netflix or Prime and will read the Cliff Notes. DS will listen to the story using audio books with Immersion reading on Kindle. On example would be The Odyssey by Homer. In 7th grade, Ds listened to the Mary Pope Osborne version. We moved over to the Ian McKellen/ Fagles translation this year and it was amazing.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Heathermomster

[1shortmomto4]

I agree with the abridged versions or starting with a smaller piece and gradually working up to something more challenging.  Another thought would be to watch the movie first and then work through the book - perhaps hearing the language first with picture and being able to put it all together in her mind might make more sense.

 

Just a side note - are you concerned about her not being able to handle the classical lit for college? If so, don't stress as so far, my two in college and have completed their English and Lit courses never read anything classical (sadly) but rather modern, politically correct stuff.  My dd struggled more with reading Lincoln's address that she had to compare against a speech given by Obama which really came from the language from the time period of Lincoln but we found lots of online options to help her through it.  Sometimes the visual is what these kids need to make the connections.

 

On a complete side note, my hearing impaired child never understood Tom Sawyer because of the dialect because he struggles with understanding the English language in the first place.  ;-) 

 

 

[sixpence1978]

Wow!  A lot of good points to consider.

 

No, the book was not the abridged version, and I'm completely okay if she isn't ready for it this year.  But, yes, I'm looking ahead to college and even high school where books like Romeo and Juliet or The Scarlet Letter are covered.

 

My DD has been tested as having dyslexia and auditory memory problems.  When I took her to a SLP, they said she didn't have a language disorder but was low in vocabulary.  I've been meaning to repeat that test at a different SLP because she shows a lot of characteristics of expressive and/or receptive language issues. 

 

So, yes, obviously she was having a bit of difficulties with the dialect.  More so than that though was struggling with the vocabulary, word order, and sentence length.  Examples of sentences that completely went over her head were:

"She seldom or never looked through them for so small a thing as a boy, for they were her state pair, the pride of her heart, and were built for "style" not service; she could have seen through a pair of stove lids as well."  Too long, didn't understand the point this was trying to make.

"Aunt Polly was vexed to think she had overlooked that bit of circumstantial evidence and missed a trick."  Phrasing and vocabulary.

 

I found I was having to stop after nearly every sentence to rephrase is so that she could understand.  Her standard comprehension of more modern works is very good, though she struggles with drawing conclusions or inferences while reading. 

 

We do listen to a lot of audio books, but she particularly responds to audio dramas.  I do have a few easier works for her to read this year (Cricket in Times Square, etc) and I was planning harder ones for our read-alouds (Alice in Wonderland, etc.)

 

Sometimes she even struggles with the style of writing in MOH as well.  As straight story or retelling of facts are fine, but as soon as the author's opinion creeps in or she starts trying to dig deeper and question something or draw conclusions, I tend to lose DD.

 

So, any suggestions on how to help her?  Or possibly book recommendations or lists that have helped you?

[Pen]

One way or another you probably have to scaffold and work up to it.

 

What is the current top level of reading that she can do on her own (several titles that might give things various of us might recognize--and including contemporary works where the older language would not be a reach so much)?  For example, when you say her std. comprehension of modern works is good, would that mean she has read and understood the Harry Potter series, or what does it mean?

 

What is the current top level that she can understand when it is read to her, or done as an audio book? How does she do with movies? I do not personally know MOH, so that reference does not help me.

 

Have you tried a comprehension program with her? And if so what, and how did it go?

[PeterPan]

Ok, she's 12.  You do read alouds because you bring something to it educationally?  Or for the bonding?  Or because she does better with auditory than reading it herself?  Is she yet doing accelerated ear reading or immersion reading?  They're two different skills, but both are worth thinking about.  Getting the combined input of the visual and auditory in immersion reading might help her comprehension.  Accelerated ear reading would be what it sounds like.  You put on a lower level audiobook, nonfiction, something she's not straining to comprehend (Cricket in Times Square, whatever), and you slowly increase the speed, week by week.  Ben Foss has info on this.  My dh is finally doing this, and it's FABULOUS.  

 

A dyslexic listening to audiobooks is getting input at 1/3 the read of someone eye reading, CONTINUING the disability, even with the accommodation.  The way to equalize access is to build up her skill for accelerated ear reading, till she can handle much faster.  Ben Foss ear reads at 3X!!  At that point, you've equalized her.  

 

I think, and this is just me, that I would use a combination of things for the language and vocabulary problems.  I agree fresh SLP testing would give you better info.  There's the CASL and the CELF, and hopefully they'll have one or the other.  You want vocabulary, comprehension, etc., so you can figure out how to target things.  Then you can go to Super Duper and look up by that thing and find materials to use.  I'm using a bunch of things right now from Super Duper for my ds' comprehension issues, and they're terrific.  My ds didn't understand question words, prepositions, verb constructions, nothing, sigh.  There are books that hit everything in a spiral, building fashion.  They're easy to implement.  If she's willing to sit through a read aloud, she'll sit to do that with you, no problem.  And what you would do is do the book as written (hitting receptive) and then have HER be the teacher and give you 3 more (hitting expressive). 

 

I think for vocabulary one of your options that might be good is to increase her ear reading speed and start bulking up on easy books.  Kwim?  Is Cricket in Times Square showing up on say a 3rd grade list VP?  I don't honestly remember.  I'm just saying pick something she can enjoy (Owls of Ga'hoole would be good!) and build up that speed to get some serious input.  Or do immersion reading for 1-2 hours a day.  Unless she has a language delay, it's entirely possible that her lack of reading (compared to her peers) is what is holding back her vocabulary acquisition.  In that case, it's reading, reading, which means using the technology.  

 

Vocab was the #1 thing that put a fire in the craw of the local OG tutor I talked with, because she said it's so hard to make that up.  With my ds, I use a kindle fire loaded up with audiobooks, and he listens to it several hours daily.  I think he averages 3 hours a day.  (The kindle actually keeps track!  LOL)  Now maybe she is going to need more explicit instruction too.  In that case, go to Super Duper and pull stuff.  Their products are easy to implement and surprisingly effective.

 

As far as Twain, I'd just give up and move on, mercy.  The world will not end.  Have you thought about poetry?  Short but still lit that you can discuss.  My FIL, whom I assume was also dyslexic (bless his soul, he's gone now), LOVED poetry.  Comics, history of comics.  I just got my dd the first book in a sequence in the production of comics.  You can find it easily on amazon.  It is so not necessary that the only way to do "literature" is to do long books.  Short stories.  Nuts, has she studied opera yet?  My dd LOVED opera at that age.  Like PASSIONATELY.  She now watches operas for pleasure.  My nutty ds thinks tickets to the summer light opera near us are gold.  

 

Try these!

 

At the Opera

 

Stories of Gilbert and Sullivan operas.

 

Also look for short stories.  I don't have the title handy, but I had a REALLY CREEPY collection of spooky tales I read to dd at that age.  I think "The Monkey's Paw" was in it, hehehe...  

 

Now I say all that, and my dh can't understand musicals and operas.  But, to me, that's not a deal breaker.  My ds (diagnosed dyslexic) seems to be cool with them, but we do a lot with him first, talking about the story, letting him hear the sound track.  And we provide food.   :D   

 

Twain is so not a hill to die on.  And I agree with the others that lit lists for freshman english classes are changing.  I've been looking at the lists by class at a local christian university, and they're very diverse, largely modern.  You could read COOKBOOKS and be well-prepared!  Seriously, does she like to cook?  Cookbooks are a whole genre of literature, with narratives, etc.  

 

Is there anything she really likes that you could harness?  I would just free yourself of this fretting over high school literature.  Most of the books on the old lists have been made into movies, and that whole idea of what is expected/required has shifted.  There's a LOT more emphasis on relevance and modern writing.  I think it's MUCH more valuable at this age to find some genre, any genre, she could connect with and just let her enjoy it, no matter what the genre is.  That comfort would then, create some willingness to try other things.  And for the vocab, preteach, get some therapy materials, and bulk up using technology.  

 

You can do this!   :)

 

Adding: The writing of MOH rambles.  You may want to get her hearing checked by an audiologist and get a screening for APD, just to make sure there's no more going on.  Around here I can get that done for $35 at the university, so it's an easy thing for me to recommend.  It's much more privately.  Alternately, some SLPs can run an APD screening.  The SCAN3 is the one you're hoping for. If you really want to stick with MOH, how about using the audio on headphones while she follows along with the print in the book?  Or use the audio with headphones and listen several times.  

 

Have you read Dyslexic Advantage yet?  I know that doesn't feel timely, but it might connect you with how she's processing and give you ideas on how to connect with her better.

Edited January 12, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

Ok, I'm sorta beating around the bush on this.  Improving her auditory working memory will help, and the therapy things you do for the vocab and language issues can help with that.  For instance, the Grammar Processing Program materials we're using from Super Duper have multi-step instructions with lots of little details (plurals, conjunctions, etc.).  I read them VERY rapidly, to simulate normal speech or even faster.  So in order to touch the correct picture, he's having to hold many things, 4-6 components, in his memory and THEN actually motor plan the touch!  It's terrific. And they build up to that, starting with just a single component.  

 

So don't think singly about therapy materials.  Improving her working memory will improve her mental RAM to let her process these things.  It all works together, making things a little more within reach, giving them time and mental scratch room to figure out challenging things.

[Lecka]

I am just adding, think about how many supports kids would be getting in school if they read this book.  They would not just be reading it cold.  They would be getting a lot of supports.  They would be reviewing sections as a class (to help with comprehension).  They might be reading some out loud to "hear" the dialect and get used to the dialect.  They might be talking about "here is something about this book that is different than modern times, and maybe you haven't been exposed to it, so here is an explanation." 

 

I think it is just something to keep in mind a lot, that a lot of kids ARE getting a huge amount of scaffolding as they read "grade level" materials. 

 

"Grade level" doesn't imply "unsupported" at all.  It implies "with quite a bit of scaffolding and support." 

[sixpence1978]

Oh, I never thought to address this with poetry!  We are covering a few short stories as well this year.  Those are great ideas!

 

I agree, evaluating for APD would be good to do.  I do know that she has an impaired working memory.

 

As far as her dyslexia and reading, she is mostly remediated here.  Her main issues have always been with the spelling side.  She reads all the time and loves listening to books.

 

I still read to her for many different reasons.  It's nice time spent together and I can read a higher level book than she would normally pick.  Also, it's a way for me to be able to talk about the book without having to pre-read it :laugh: She loves to follow along as I read, so it isn't entirely auditory.  She also has her own assigned reading as well as her books of interest.

 

Books that she has no problem understanding and is able to read would be Harry Potter, Guardians of Ga'hoole, The One and Only Ivan, The Familiars, etc.  She is very interested in animals and fantasy.

 

Looks like I should look around at Super Duper again.  I haven't been there in a while.  The last purchase was for Hear Builder.

[Guest]

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Edited February 11, 2016 by Guest

[PeterPan]

Cricket, did they watch the new(er) movies or the older BBC series?  We love the BBC series, so I've taught my kids that the new ones were anathema, hahaha... I think we tried to watch them a few months ago, and they were just sorta ho-hum.  Had to go back to the enchantment of the real thing.   :D

 

PS.  Isn't the Wardrobe at the Tolkien library at Wheaton? Why was I thinking that?  You could take a fieldtrip, hehe.  I have no clue if that's even close for you, I'm just saying it would be an excuse.  :)

Edited January 13, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Guest]

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Edited February 11, 2016 by Guest

[LaughingCat]

The BBC versions are a laugh costuming wise IMO- but both kids enjoyed them anyway and they are truer to the books.

[Guest]

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Edited February 11, 2016 by Guest

[Pen]

 

 

Books that she has no problem understanding and is able to read would be Harry Potter, Guardians of Ga'hoole, The One and Only Ivan, The Familiars, etc.  She is very interested in animals and fantasy.

 

 

 

 

I'd suggest using those as your starting points for scaffolding. More classic or older books involving fantasy or animals that are probably somewhat harder, but not a huge leap, could include Prydain Chronicles (not so old and not much of a jump from Harry Potter--a bit harder maybe, but shorter), All Creatures Great and Small series, Trumpet of the Swan and Stuart Little (if not yet read), Narnia series (as others have mentioned), Gulliver's Travels (perhaps as an audio book to start), Midsummer Night's Dream as a fantasy Shakespeare starting with a live or filmed version, perhaps. Something like Mary Poppins as fantasy that is not too hard, but has a bit of older / different language, perhaps. A Christmas Carol  Perhaps abridged Swiss Family Robinson. Maybe Dr. Doolittle, Wizard of Oz.  Black Beauty, Black Stallion series. Lassie Come Home. Lad dog books and or short stories by same author (Blue Milk, especially recommended for a short story where more is happening than immediately obvious). 

[sixpence1978]

I'd suggest using those as your starting points for scaffolding. More classic or older books involving fantasy or animals that are probably somewhat harder, but not a huge leap, could include Prydain Chronicles (not so old and not much of a jump from Harry Potter--a bit harder maybe, but shorter), All Creatures Great and Small series, Trumpet of the Swan and Stuart Little (if not yet read), Narnia series (as others have mentioned), Gulliver's Travels (perhaps as an audio book to start), Midsummer Night's Dream as a fantasy Shakespeare starting with a live or filmed version, perhaps. Something like Mary Poppins as fantasy that is not too hard, but has a bit of older / different language, perhaps. A Christmas Carol  Perhaps abridged Swiss Family Robinson. Maybe Dr. Doolittle, Wizard of Oz.  Black Beauty, Black Stallion series. Lassie Come Home. Lad dog books and or short stories by same author (Blue Milk, especially recommended for a short story where more is happening than immediately obvious). 

 

Thanks for the recs.  We have done a few of those, but not all.  (Though I regret to say that we hated Stuart Little)  This is sort of what I was asking about, just steps and other books that we hadn't looked at that would slowly move in the direction of more complex language.

 

My DH read her all the Narnia books, and she has probably read 2 herself.  Her audio drama of them as well as The Hobbit are basically playing non-stop in her room.

[Pen]

Thanks for the recs.  We have done a few of those, but not all.  (Though I regret to say that we hated Stuart Little)  This is sort of what I was asking about, just steps and other books that we hadn't looked at that would slowly move in the direction of more complex language.

 

My DH read her all the Narnia books, and she has probably read 2 herself.  Her audio drama of them as well as The Hobbit are basically playing non-stop in her room.

 

 

My ds read and reread many books at a particular level (say all the Narnia books might have been used that way, though that particular group wasn't actually) and was totally fluent and automatic at that level before moving on. So, for example, if your dd cannot yet read through all the Narnia books with great fluency and understanding, I'd recommend something like that. Since she already understands the story, the reading should be easier.  If she can read Harry Potter, check if it is completely fluent, automatic and with understanding, and if not, maybe have her read those again.

 

For what it's worth I like Trumpet of the Swan much better than Stuart Little.

 

For making this sort of progress, look for books where she can understand and easily read about 90-95%  of each page, so that she is working with things that are neither too easy, nor so hard as to be frustrating.

 

A Wrinkle in Time, might be another fantasy book series to consider.  All Things Great and Small books have relatively easy story lines to follow, but somewhat more complex writing and vocabulary.

 

A good children's librarian might also be able to help steer you to good books at gradually progressive levels of difficulty.

 

 

Movies can also be used to consider things going on like foreshadowing, nuances, and other devices without needing to deal with written matter at the same time.

 

My ds is currently enjoying Maximum Ride series, which is more adventure (his fav genre), but might appeal to your dd and has very short chapters. I don't know how it is for level--might not be enough to grow her abilities.

[Guest]

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Edited February 11, 2016 by Guest