Help, overwhelmed and frustrated

[Seeking Squirrels]

DD is 7. She hates school time. She fights me every single day, on every subject but science. She doesn't want to do any of it and complains the whole time, every day. She drags her feet so much that everything takes so much longer than it should. Two of my biggest reasons for homeschooling were 1- for her to love school/learning and 2- to have more time to be a kid and play. We're not hitting either of those. And if I were to continue with reasons why, spending quality time with my kid instead of sending her off is pretty high up there, but this isn't exactly quality time when I end up so frustrated with her.  She hates it all, she thinks I'm mean for making her do it, and we don't have more time because she spends the whole day either having meltdowns, or dragging her feet.

 

I don't feel like I have anyone to talk to about this stuff. I know a couple of homeschoolers in passing, but nobody I could call up or sit and chat with about how it's going. I don't know what to do anymore, I feel like this entire adventure has been a failure.

 

To add to my feelings of being overwhelmed, my 3yo has expressed that she feels "alone" all day, because I'm having to focus so much energy and attention on my 7yo. (Her words. She said "daddy and you and sister gone all day and I all alone") And my house is an absolute disaster because I just don't know how to keep up with it all.

 

Any words of advice?

[HS Mom in NC]

Would you say that the oldest has that same attitude toward doing things doesn't particularly want to do outside of academics?  Does she do that when you tell her to pick up after herself, do chores, help mom with tasks, etc.?  Would you say she has one of those personalities where she's usually negative and complaining?

How long have you been homeschooling her?

[73349]

Does she think homeschooling is an unpleasant alternative to playing all day (which is of course what you would allow if you weren't such a meanie)? Or does she know that the other option is b&m school, staying in her seat and following directions and doing exactly what the rest of the class is doing?

 

DS was fighting me about school quite a bit for a while last fall (when he was 7 also). We talked about the fact that he's of compulsory age and that if he isn't getting school done with me, I am legally required to send him elsewhere. It helps that he sees when the school bus goes by (8:30 and I think about 4:15) and realizes that he has played a lot of the time when other kids were still in school. I have also made sure to point out that all kids in a classroom are required to complete the same books at the same pace. I asked him to help me make a list of what was working well and what wasn't, and he had some good ideas. I dropped one thing we both hated, for example, and tweaked the schedule for a couple of others.

 

It's helpful when we can schedule desirable outings for right after lunch, so he's less apt to drag his feet: he wants to get done in time to go to the museum (or wherever).

[Seeking Squirrels]

Would you say that the oldest has that same attitude toward doing things doesn't particularly want to do outside of academics?  Does she do that when you tell her to pick up after herself, do chores, help mom with tasks, etc.?  Would you say she has one of those personalities where she's usually negative and complaining?

 

How long have you been homeschooling her?

 

She has the same attitude toward anything she doesn't want to do. She wails and cries when told to clean up. I get "buuuuuttttt mooooooooommmmmm" and then she says she's tired, and doesn't feel good, and drags her feet through whatever she's supposed to do.

 

We've always homeschooled. We did montessori style stuff through preschool. K we had curriculum, but I let her lead as far as if and when and how much we did. First grade was when I started requiring work to be done. She LOVED preschool and K. Actually she still wants to be 3 and says as much.

Does she think homeschooling is an unpleasant alternative to playing all day (which is of course what you would allow if you weren't such a meanie)? Or does she know that the other option is b&m school, staying in her seat and following directions and doing exactly what the rest of the class is doing?

 

Both. She sees it as unfair because she'd rather play and because her sister (3) gets to do things that look more fun. But she also knows the alternative. She attends a one-day charter program that runs from 9-3:30 and to her that is a very long day. I've told her the ps kids are actually at school every day a little longer than she is there.

 

DS was fighting me about school quite a bit for a while last fall (when he was 7 also). We talked about the fact that he's of compulsory age and that if he isn't getting school done with me, I am legally required to send him elsewhere. It helps that he sees when the school bus goes by (8:30 and I think about 4:15) and realizes that he has played a lot of the time when other kids were still in school. I have also made sure to point out that all kids in a classroom are required to complete the same books at the same pace. I asked him to help me make a list of what was working well and what wasn't, and he had some good ideas. I dropped one thing we both hated, for example, and tweaked the schedule for a couple of others.

 

We've had lots of conversations about this. I've explained to her that she has to be educated, either at home with me, or at a school. We've discussed the possibility of ps, but she sees it as punishment and that we are horribly mean to even consider sending her away from myself and sister all day. I've also asked her about our subjects and usually she says she likes everything and doesn't want me to drop anything. She says she loves it. She says she likes school. She says math is one of her favorites. But in practice, she complains, fits, and drags her feet through every bit. I did drop the one thing she said she didn't like (or rather, I pulled it out and there was immediate 30 minute meltdown)

It's helpful when we can schedule desirable outings for right after lunch, so he's less apt to drag his feet: he wants to get done in time to go to the museum (or wherever).

 

We're never done by lunch. :/ I have to drag her out of bed and drag her through the get-ready process and then fight her to even get started by 10/10:30. Then she drags her feet through a couple subjects til we have to stop for lunch. Then we fit in the last couple things and I prioritize what to let go and just read to them for a while.

[HomeAgain]

:grouphug:

 

We've used several different tools to help engage the brain, so to speak. I don't know if any will help you, but they have made a difference here:

 

Setting strict "school" hours.  From 8-3, activities are restricted to certain play and school work.

 

Using a timer/dice/something to keep count.  It's worth it to me to start with "we're going to do this for 3 minutes and then come back to it later if we need to, but if you complain or mess around, the 3 minutes starts over."  Every child can handle 3 minutes, and the finite time helps get their brains in the right mindset.  That's slowly stretched to 5, then 10, then 15, then 20.  I use it to go the other way, too, getting a child super into something and then saying time is up, so the next time around it's easier to get into it.

 

Alternating activities.  Every up has a down.  Every sit down/writing is followed by movement.  If we write for copywork, spelling is with tiles.  If we write for science, math is with manipulatives. I spend quite a bit of time trying to figure out how to add movement when it's not easily found.  I throw in games, music, and art as well as they get older to give more attention to the must-writes.

 

Constant feedback.  "What is one thing you did not like doing today?  What did you like doing?"  Monthly or weekly: "Give me something you want to incorporate in."

 

Social time.  At least 3x a week going out of the house to homeschool meet-ups, field trips, library time, museums.

 

Working on attitude first.  I totally stole this from someone and put it where my kid could see it every day "May my mind work with attention, my hands work with care, and my heart work with love."  I cannot control the last, but I can reinforce the first two every morning before we start and every opportunity I get.  "It's time for you to work with attention for the next three minutes."

 

Routine.  Lots of routine. 

 

Refusing to banter.  That's great, I heard you, you're still going to do it anyway.  Not negotiable.  Heard you again, you don't like it.  Yep.  Do you want to do the writing portion first or the reading portion? After that it just becomes It's time to do x.  Get your book.  It's time to do x.  You need to write your answer here.  I don't have the energy to argue with a child. 

 

 

 

[Seeking Squirrels]

:grouphug:

 

We've used several different tools to help engage the brain, so to speak. I don't know if any will help you, but they have made a difference here:

 

Setting strict "school" hours.  From 8-3, activities are restricted to certain play and school work.

 

I definitely need to do this. Somehow. Easier said than done!

 

Using a timer/dice/something to keep count.  It's worth it to me to start with "we're going to do this for 3 minutes and then come back to it later if we need to, but if you complain or mess around, the 3 minutes starts over."  Every child can handle 3 minutes, and the finite time helps get their brains in the right mindset.  That's slowly stretched to 5, then 10, then 15, then 20.  I use it to go the other way, too, getting a child super into something and then saying time is up, so the next time around it's easier to get into it.

 

I really like this idea. I will try to implement it and see how it goes.

 

Alternating activities.  Every up has a down.  Every sit down/writing is followed by movement.  If we write for copywork, spelling is with tiles.  If we write for science, math is with manipulatives. I spend quite a bit of time trying to figure out how to add movement when it's not easily found.  I throw in games, music, and art as well as they get older to give more attention to the must-writes.

 

I definitely try to do this, it just doesn't always work that way. Or I get frazzled because we're so far "behind" where we should be in the day, so I forget to pay attention to that and do what seems a more efficient progression at the time. We do lots of sensory stuff with tumbling and jumping on the trampoline.

 

Constant feedback.  "What is one thing you did not like doing today?  What did you like doing?"  Monthly or weekly: "Give me something you want to incorporate in."

 

Social time.  At least 3x a week going out of the house to homeschool meet-ups, field trips, library time, museums.

 

Would you count regular extra-curriculars?

She has:

Monday- 1 hr tumbling

Tuesday - 1 hr highland dancing

Wednesday - charter program from 9-3:30

Thursday - charter "specials", drawing class and painting class, 1 hr each

That's it right now for regular stuff. At times we've done swimming and soccer. Other field trips are random but we do them occasionally. We sometimes go to various play places (bounce house places and such). We don't do the library with her as often as I'd like because that's what the 3yo and I do while she is in specials, so we're rotating books and picking up ones we need and 7yo hasn't really gone for a while.

 

Working on attitude first.  I totally stole this from someone and put it where my kid could see it every day "May my mind work with attention, my hands work with care, and my heart work with love."  I cannot control the last, but I can reinforce the first two every morning before we start and every opportunity I get.  "It's time for you to work with attention for the next three minutes."

 

We have tried and tried to work on the attitude. She sees an OT (twice a month) and sometimes a behavioral psychologist (meaning she has one and sometimes sees him regularly, but hasn't now for several months) and we have tried every reinforcement "system" we have learned about. We've read books, read books on it for kids, done workbooks on it with her.....She rages, she flares, she melts down, she lays the attitude on thick. Nothing we have tried seems to help.

 

Routine.  Lots of routine. 

 

This one is so hard for me. I know it's good for her and I try hard, but I'm ADD and often the routine slips are on me.

 

Refusing to banter.  That's great, I heard you, you're still going to do it anyway.  Not negotiable.  Heard you again, you don't like it.  Yep.  Do you want to do the writing portion first or the reading portion? After that it just becomes It's time to do x.  Get your book.  It's time to do x.  You need to write your answer here.  I don't have the energy to argue with a child. 

 

I wish I could remember this in the moment when she's digging in her heels. But I usually don't and end up going round and round with her.

 

Thank you for your ideas. I will try some of this.

 

[Professormom]

I very much agree with a lot of what homeagain has said. From my experience, it can be hard when you are in the trenches to realize that some things are more about behavior than homeschooling because they are so tightly intertwined. In fact, one thing I often tell people when they are just starting out and want advice on homeschooling is that it is really important to get the behavior, listening, attitude, etc. in order first. Or at least make it a priority. I know not everyone agrees but sometimes, "Suck it up" is a good life lesson. I know that I can allow my olders MUCH more latitude now because of the expectations set when they were young.

 

In our home, that looks like the following...

 

-They do not get to back talk. They can do a respectful appeal to my instructions, if they take that route the first time. If they decide to be a pita when I tell them to do something, respectful appeal opportunity goes out the window.

 

-Whining is never going to get them the response they are seeking. When they were young, they knew that if they decide to use whining as a method of communication, the situation will very likely end in them getting the *opposite* of whatever they wanted. Or I just don't hear them. Same thing goes for tantrums.

 

-Siblings of different ages do different things. That is life. Olders get to do more than youngers, but also have more responsibility.

 

-At that age, I was much more matter of fact than I am now. I just told them what is expected without getting emotional. Feeding the drama beast usually doesn't let you relax into your goal of homeschooling. Now, I explain more. Their thinking is more developed. Sometimes. Other times, I wonder if their brains have actually fallen out. I tailor my explanations to wherever they are on that continuum, lol.

 

-School is school and is non-negotiable. They don't have to like it, but their days will be much more fun if they have a good attitude. I worked in lots of physical activity and broke work up at the age yours is, but school just gets done. If it doesn't or they decided to drag their heels too much, they lose other things like sports, etc. That only had to happen a few times before they took it seriously. (There is no 7yo level sport team that is going to die if the child misses a practice or a game. I feel that being reliable to a team is an important lesson, but this other stuff trumps that lesson in priority. My goal as a parent is to get these types of behavior redirected into solid, healthy interaction. That trumps any outside activity. Besides, the coaches usually prefer well-behaved, possibly missing a practice or a game to holy terror, but there every week. :lol: )

 

-If they can't get ready in the morning in a timely fashion, I have them get completely ready before they have breakfast. Or I give them a time limit with a financial or privilege consequence. Different things have worked better for each of the boys at different ages.

 

None of this is traumatic or super hard core. I have always found that doing the hard work of being consistent on the behavior stuff early on yields really big dividends. Even with my super spirited one who required so much consistency I wanted to jump off of a bridge ;-)

 

Of course, they will have some times that are easier than other. Hormones can be nutty, but they are also aware that hormones are not a license to treat other people like carp. We just adjust and work through, always with the goal of showing them how self-control ultimately works in their favor and gives them freedom in the teen years.

 

What this also looks like in our home...

 

-We have always had great fun with our kids.

 

-We joke and laugh like crazy people often.

 

-We hang out together because we *want* to. I really enjoy the people they are becoming.

 

-They like to do school... Most days. Not always. Not every day is sunshine and rainbows. But the good days far outweigh the bad. Which is a win in my book.

 

-They know they can talk to us about anything. They also know they have the freedom to renegotiate things where appropriate because their attitude/follow through/whatever earns my trust. It shows me they are using cheerfulness, courtesy, civility and honor for others. It also helps them because I, and other adults, tend to take what they have to say more seriously.

 

-I can give them more freedom now because of habits they developed when they were younger. Of course, I didn't explain everything in lecture form or even expect them to make those connections at the elementary age. They are starting to notice it now.

 

I guess when all is said and done, the kid drama does not get to hijack the atmosphere of our home. We work together to create a home of peace and love and productivity. I reinforce that often. It isn't a perfect system, but it is something that I have found necessary for our homeschool to function well.

 

I didn't really intend to write a book here, but I can feel for the position you are in. It is rotten to have that much stress associated with something you love (homeschooling). I need to throw the disclaimer up that this is what has worked for *my* family. Take what works for you and discard the rest. You can do this :hurray:

[Professormom]

I just saw your post on the OT. That makes things harder. I would guess you will get many more good ideas on this thread. Good luck to you:-)

[wendyroo]

Could you maybe split up the day a bit and structure it in such a way that the 3 year old could join in some of time?

 

My oldest, Peter, is almost 7.  While I clean up breakfast he sits by me and does 15 minutes of assigned reading.  As soon as we are done, he and I sit together for 15 minutes and do either AAS2 or WWE1.  I keep him on task this whole time...but I also keep the lessons short and the expectations manageable.  He is then released to play with his brothers for about an hour.

 

After play time, Peter, his 4 year old brother and I sit down together to do another 30-45ish minutes of school.  I don't expect much output from the boys, so this time is mostly me reading aloud, a few oral narrations and lots of simple, fun activities.  Over the course of the week we hit on history, science, geography, art, Spanish, problem solving, grammar and poetry...plus any other rabbit trails we follow.  The preschooler is never required to join us, but we are way more fun than playing by himself, so he always does.  Sometimes the 2 year old even joins us for part of school time.

 

After lunch, the only subject left is math which is best tackled when the other kids are resting and I can sit with the 7 year old one on one if necessary.  I try very hard to be done with math in about 20 minutes even if that means having him do some of it orally.

 

Wendy

 

 

[Seeking Squirrels]

I just saw your post on the OT. That makes things harder. I would guess you will get many more good ideas on this thread. Good luck to you:-)

 

SPD, ADHD, and possible HFA. Yes, definitely makes things harder!

[Seeking Squirrels]

Could you maybe split up the day a bit and structure it in such a way that the 3 year old could join in some of time?

 

My oldest, Peter, is almost 7.  While I clean up breakfast he sits by me and does 15 minutes of assigned reading.  As soon as we are done, he and I sit together for 15 minutes and do either AAS2 or WWE1.  I keep him on task this whole time...but I also keep the lessons short and the expectations manageable.  He is then released to play with his brothers for about an hour.

 

After play time, Peter, his 4 year old brother and I sit down together to do another 30-45ish minutes of school.  I don't expect much output from the boys, so this time is mostly me reading aloud, a few oral narrations and lots of simple, fun activities.  Over the course of the week we hit on history, science, geography, art, Spanish, problem solving, grammar and poetry...plus any other rabbit trails we follow.  The preschooler is never required to join us, but we are way more fun than playing by himself, so he always does.  Sometimes the 2 year old even joins us for part of school time.

 

After lunch, the only subject left is math which is best tackled when the other kids are resting and I can sit with the 7 year old one on one if necessary.  I try very hard to be done with math in about 20 minutes even if that means having him do some of it orally.

 

Wendy

 

I try to make it so the 3yo can join us and so that I can alternate my time with them. I've found if I don't get time in with  my 3yo right off the bat, she is quite needy and doesn't let us get through a lesson. So right now I have DD7 starting with a critical thinking game and then handwriting. I am right there just a few feet away, but working with my 3yo who absolutely loves her AAR and begs for it from the moment we're done with breakfast. But my 7yo doesn't want to do her work, she wants to come join us. So when we're done I either have to have her skip those things to move onto AAS which needs my full attention (while I can, before 3yo gets antsy), or I work with her on those and then we may or may not get through AAS before 3yo is climbing all over me wanting attention. Ideally at this point she would work on a couple pages of language smarts while I sit close by and do something with 3yo for a few minutes, but this usually doesn't happen. 3yo does join us for read-alouds and science. Math and spelling are the main ones I need 3yo's tank to be full for so we aren't being constantly interrupted.

 

I keep coming up with schedules/routines that work on paper to split my time between them and make sure 3yo isn't spending long periods of time alone or that 7yo is being expected to be independent for too long (and I'm always right there, we have a combined playroom/schoolroom.) But 7yo doesn't want to miss anything 3yo is doing, so she doesn't allow us to double up our time like that. I have to be at her elbow for 100% of what she does, which leaves 3yo "on her own" more and just makes our day take that much longer. She cries that she doesn't have play time with her sister, but she won't just do her work. Especially if I so much as look away or speak to her sister, but even with my full attention, she drags it out.

 

[wendyroo]

SPD, ADHD, and possible HFA. Yes, definitely makes things harder!

 

This is a lot like what Peter is dealing with...ASD, ADD, OCD and anxiety.  Yes, it certainly adds a layer of complication.

 

Wendy

[wendyroo]

I try to make it so the 3yo can join us and so that I can alternate my time with them. I've found if I don't get time in with  my 3yo right off the bat, she is quite needy and doesn't let us get through a lesson. So right now I have DD7 starting with a critical thinking game and then handwriting. I am right there just a few feet away, but working with my 3yo who absolutely loves her AAR and begs for it from the moment we're done with breakfast. But my 7yo doesn't want to do her work, she wants to come join us. So when we're done I either have to have her skip those things to move onto AAS which needs my full attention (while I can, before 3yo gets antsy), or I work with her on those and then we may or may not get through AAS before 3yo is climbing all over me wanting attention. Ideally at this point she would work on a couple pages of language smarts while I sit close by and do something with 3yo for a few minutes, but this usually doesn't happen. 3yo does join us for read-alouds and science. Math and spelling are the main ones I need 3yo's tank to be full for so we aren't being constantly interrupted.

 

I keep coming up with schedules/routines that work on paper to split my time between them and make sure 3yo isn't spending long periods of time alone or that 7yo is being expected to be independent for too long (and I'm always right there, we have a combined playroom/schoolroom.) But 7yo doesn't want to miss anything 3yo is doing, so she doesn't allow us to double up our time like that. I have to be at her elbow for 100% of what she does, which leaves 3yo "on her own" more and just makes our day take that much longer. She cries that she doesn't have play time with her sister, but she won't just do her work. Especially if I so much as look away or speak to her sister, but even with my full attention, she drags it out.

 

 

Honestly, I would not try to alternate, I would just have both of them do everything.  It sounds like so much time is wasted trying to get either of them to work alone that you might as well just do everything together.

 

I would start with handwriting - HWT for the 7 year old and pre-writing (Kumon or whatever) for the 3 year old.  The preschooler is welcome to wander off or sit with you and write/color in the workbook, but AAR doesn't happen until handwriting is done.

 

Then AAR with both of them.  Maybe the 7 year old can help teach some of it.  When we do phonics with my 4 year old, the boys make words for each other to read.  My 6 year old makes a CVC word for the 4 year old and then the 4 year old makes a long gobbledygook non-word for the 6 year old.  Seeing how the 6 year old reads those random strings of letters really shows me how strong his phonics is.

 

Then I would have you all do the critical thinking game with the 7 year old being the team leader and the 3 year old being her apprentice.

 

So on and so forth.

 

I agree that math and spelling are harder to do with a preschooler around.  That is why I schedule math for rest time.

 

Wendy

[HS Mom in NC]

I try to make it so the 3yo can join us and so that I can alternate my time with them. I've found if I don't get time in with  my 3yo right off the bat, she is quite needy and doesn't let us get through a lesson. So right now I have DD7 starting with a critical thinking game and then handwriting. I am right there just a few feet away, but working with my 3yo who absolutely loves her AAR and begs for it from the moment we're done with breakfast. But my 7yo doesn't want to do her work, she wants to come join us. So when we're done I either have to have her skip those things to move onto AAS which needs my full attention (while I can, before 3yo gets antsy), or I work with her on those and then we may or may not get through AAS before 3yo is climbing all over me wanting attention. Ideally at this point she would work on a couple pages of language smarts while I sit close by and do something with 3yo for a few minutes, but this usually doesn't happen. 3yo does join us for read-alouds and science. Math and spelling are the main ones I need 3yo's tank to be full for so we aren't being constantly interrupted.

 

I keep coming up with schedules/routines that work on paper to split my time between them and make sure 3yo isn't spending long periods of time alone or that 7yo is being expected to be independent for too long (and I'm always right there, we have a combined playroom/schoolroom.) But 7yo doesn't want to miss anything 3yo is doing, so she doesn't allow us to double up our time like that. I have to be at her elbow for 100% of what she does, which leaves 3yo "on her own" more and just makes our day take that much longer. She cries that she doesn't have play time with her sister, but she won't just do her work. Especially if I so much as look away or speak to her sister, but even with my full attention, she drags it out.

 

 

I'm struck by your very passive language.  Just because you're homeschooling doesn't mean the kids decide what happens when.  In schools teachers aren't worried at all about this.  The assignment is what it is, like it or not.  The teacher decides when it's done and how, like it or not.  There are consequences for disrupting the learning.  Homeschools need to be like that too. Yes, you're a family at home and siblings can interact with each other, but if those interactions are interfering with getting a reasonable amount of school done, then mom needs to intervene and put an end to the problematic interactions. Usually that means mom has to tell a child no to what they want at the moment.

 

I don't think a homeschool can function well long term if what each child wants is the highest good.  What they want can be taken into consideration (when they voice what they want it civil, reasonable ways) but the academics during school hours really need to be the priority the vast majority of the time.  Yes, there are times now and then when something very emotionally significant is going on and school needs to put aside for part or all of the day, but those should be the exception, not the rule. 

 

I'm not unsympathetic because my youngest was a traumatized  international adoptee when she arrived here at 7 months old and the older two were 7 and 9.  We had to rebuild bonds and transition her into a new home.  She was very emotionally needy.  My older two had to get back to homeschooling a couple of months after she arrived.  That difficult transition was about a year long.  Then we had all the usual homeschooling school aged kids with preschoolers in the home type of issues going on. We had a mat on the floor with special toys and snacks for times the youngest needed to be next to me while I worked with the older kids one on one without interruption.

 

Your children can learn to hear, "Not now.  Later." They can learn to play on their own nearby for increasing periods of time.  Older kids can learn to get over the fact that a younger sibling is playing while they're doing academics.  But all that learning  happens for most kids by mom clearly stating what the rules are and enforcing them.  Transitions are hard-expect to work at it for a while. Some personalities respond to that better than others, but we all have to learn these things.  Reasonable expectations coupled with very consistent routines and enforcement are key.

 

Some children are completely unaware of time.  They may need a timer set to a reasonable amount of time to complete an assignment so they can see time ticking away.  Some kids are just protesting having to do an assignment so they drag it out.  Those kids need consequences.

 

Parents don't have to be afraid of their child's emotions.  Kids don't like being told no.  Neither do adults.  We hear it, we don't like it and we live with it.  Kids cry sometimes.  Sometimes they scream, yell, throw fits, wail, sob and dramatically throw themselves to the floor because mom said they had to do chores, do school, pick up after themselves, had to eat dinner before dessert, etc. One of the most important life skills an adult can have is the ability to do things they know they should even though they don't want to.  Most people who learned that skill learned it, in part, a little at a time in childhood when parents or teachers made them do it anyway in spite of their emotional outbursts.

 

[kbutton]

Are you working with a BCBA or a psychologist who has a behavioral bent? Those are different things, and it sounds like it's time for a board certified behavioral analyst. They will often DO a lot of the work of the program with you, not just tell you want to do. You will still have to work on things, but it's just a totally different thing than seeing a psychologist. They can come to your home and work on things with your child.

 

I know some kids with sunny dispositions who are autistic and some who are downers. And mostly a lot in between. There is no "making" our autistic kids do things, but a BCBA can really help you win more often than not  

 

One thing that has slowly helped me not get stuck in the arguing trap is knowing just how much like a broken record these kids are--they go on and on about things over and over. It's like an itch they need to scratch. And they don't see the connection between their annoying behavior and people getting on them about stuff. They just know they get lucky sometimes, and people give in to their demands. (They overgeneralize one success to the possibility that they COULD be successful at any given point, and so they continue to cajole.) Be a broken record back. I tell myself that all the time. 

[Ellie]

DD is 7. She hates school time. She fights me every single day, on every subject but science. She doesn't want to do any of it and complains the whole time, every day. She drags her feet so much that everything takes so much longer than it should. Two of my biggest reasons for homeschooling were 1- for her to love school/learning and 2- to have more time to be a kid and play. We're not hitting either of those. And if I were to continue with reasons why, spending quality time with my kid instead of sending her off is pretty high up there, but this isn't exactly quality time when I end up so frustrated with her.  She hates it all, she thinks I'm mean for making her do it, and we don't have more time because she spends the whole day either having meltdowns, or dragging her feet.

 

I don't feel like I have anyone to talk to about this stuff. I know a couple of homeschoolers in passing, but nobody I could call up or sit and chat with about how it's going. I don't know what to do anymore, I feel like this entire adventure has been a failure.

 

To add to my feelings of being overwhelmed, my 3yo has expressed that she feels "alone" all day, because I'm having to focus so much energy and attention on my 7yo. (Her words. She said "daddy and you and sister gone all day and I all alone") And my house is an absolute disaster because I just don't know how to keep up with it all.

 

Any words of advice?

 

Unschooler here. :-)

 

If this were my house and my dc, I'd put everything away that looked like school. I would focus on our being together; we'd have routine (including keeping the house clean, because that's a good life skill, and no one wants to live that way anyhow), all occupants would be required to get dressed daily and pick up after themselves and whatnot, but there would be no Official School Stuff. I might plan outings with the dc, and there would definitely be library, but there would be nothing that looked like school, not for a long time, not until I could tell that my dc were ready. I would reevaluate the materials and methods I had been doing to see if those were the problem (probably), and I'd research other materials and methods and be ready to go when the time came.

 

I have, in fact, done this with my own dc. Both began taking classes at the community college when they were 14, so I guess it worked out. :-)

 

[HS Mom in NC]

dp

Edited January 8, 2016 by Homeschool Mom in AZ

[Seeking Squirrels]

Honestly, I would not try to alternate, I would just have both of them do everything.  It sounds like so much time is wasted trying to get either of them to work alone that you might as well just do everything together.

 

...

 

 

Wendy

 

This is an interesting plan. I might have to give it a try. It's counter intuitive as it feels it would make a longer day, but I suppose if I'm not spending so much time getting them back on track....

I'm struck by your very passive language.  Just because you're homeschooling doesn't mean the kids decide what happens when.  In schools teachers aren't worried at all about this.  The assignment is what it is, like it or not.  The teacher decides when it's done and how, like it or not.  There are consequences for disrupting the learning.  Homeschools need to be like that too. Yes, you're a family at home and siblings can interact with each other, but if those interactions are interfering with getting a reasonable amount of school done, then mom needs to intervene and put an end to the problematic interactions. Usually that means mom has to tell a child no to what they want at the moment.

........

 

Part of it is probably that I'm posting from frustration on a rough day. When I say my 7yo won't do her work and the 3yo doesn't allow us, what that really looks like is the 7yo is just too distractable and inattentive and just doesn't focus on her handwriting when I'm doing something with my 3yo. She doesn't blatantly abandon her work and come over to us and I just let her. She turns in her seat to watch and I motion her back around. She turns again and jumps into our "abc" song. It gets hard after a while to keep redirecting her back to her work without being completely inattentive to my 3yo. My 3yo not "allowing" us really looks like a typical 3 yo who may whine or just be seeking my attention. If we skip a few things it's because I decide our time would be better spent on something else. I don't let my 7yo just get up and leave her work to sing the abc's with us and then get out of doing her other work. A lot of the time I don't think she's meaning to be naughty or anything by not doing her work. She just can't focus on it with 3yo and I doing something close by.

 

Are you working with a BCBA or a psychologist who has a behavioral bent? Those are different things, and it sounds like it's time for a board certified behavioral analyst. They will often DO a lot of the work of the program with you, not just tell you want to do. You will still have to work on things, but it's just a totally different thing than seeing a psychologist. They can come to your home and work on things with your child.

 

I know some kids with sunny dispositions who are autistic and some who are downers. And mostly a lot in between. There is no "making" our autistic kids do things, but a BCBA can really help you win more often than not  

 

One thing that has slowly helped me not get stuck in the arguing trap is knowing just how much like a broken record these kids are--they go on and on about things over and over. It's like an itch they need to scratch. And they don't see the connection between their annoying behavior and people getting on them about stuff. They just know they get lucky sometimes, and people give in to their demands. (They overgeneralize one success to the possibility that they COULD be successful at any given point, and so they continue to cajole.) Be a broken record back. I tell myself that all the time. 

 

Just a psychologist. We were greatly feeling like he wasn't working which is why we haven't been back in some time. We hit a point where he said "you guys have tried everything I've given you and I believe you've given it good faith effort. I think it's time to consider meds." We disagreed. We do not want to medicate at this point.

I need to look into a BCBA as I'm clueless. Is this connected to ABA therapy? That was recommended to me on another thread and we haven't had a chance to pursue that yet.

 

Yes, DD can go on and on and on. It can be exactly like a broken record. Sometimes I've literally had to get on her level, look her in the eye and say "you need to stop talking. right now. stop please. stop. talking." in order to snap her out of it.

 

Unschooler here. :-)

 

If this were my house and my dc, I'd put everything away that looked like school. I would focus on our being together; we'd have routine (including keeping the house clean, because that's a good life skill, and no one wants to live that way anyhow), all occupants would be required to get dressed daily and pick up after themselves and whatnot, but there would be no Official School Stuff. I might plan outings with the dc, and there would definitely be library, but there would be nothing that looked like school, not for a long time, not until I could tell that my dc were ready. I would reevaluate the materials and methods I had been doing to see if those were the problem (probably), and I'd research other materials and methods and be ready to go when the time came.

 

I have, in fact, done this with my own dc. Both began taking classes at the community college when they were 14, so I guess it worked out. :-)

 

I don't know if I'd be able to do this or not. I struggled all through K with wanting to be relaxed and let her lead the game but also wanting to make sure we didn't skip anything important. I'm very much a completionist and a box checker. I'm not anti-unschooling, and I considered it for a while. But I also realized early that it was not me.

[Faithr]

I was going to post something but then I read what Ellie wrote!  Three cheers for Ellie!  I second her advice.  We are very unschooly until middle school, when we are only partly unschooly.  LOL.  We don't get completely formal until high school.  It worked out just fine!

 

My youngest is 14.  I miss having 7 and 3 yos!  I loved reading out loud, doing projects, experiments, playing all day.  It goes by so fast.  Throw away the workbooks.  Children were designed to learn through play and imitation and relationship.  

 

You don't have to be a complete unschooler.  Look into Thomas Jefferson Education or Project based homeschooling.  Those allow freedom within limits.  And you are not going to miss anything.  Children are little sponges that soak up knowledge if the home has an atmosphere that cultivates exploration and discussion.  My kids are all dyslexic too.  They didn't read until some time in their 9th year, all five were like that.  And they didn't 'miss' anything.

 

Your post just broke my heart.  Don't waste those precious years operating out of fear and anxiety!  Read lots of cozy books, bake together, make up silly songs to sing to each other, write each other love notes and sneak them under the pillow (hey reading and writing!).  Relationship counts so much more than filled in workbook sheets.  

[Seeking Squirrels]

I was going to post something but then I read what Ellie wrote!  Three cheers for Ellie!  I second her advice.  We are very unschooly until middle school, when we are only partly unschooly.  LOL.  We don't get completely formal until high school.  It worked out just fine!

 

My youngest is 14.  I miss having 7 and 3 yos!  I loved reading out loud, doing projects, experiments, playing all day.  It goes by so fast.  Throw away the workbooks.  Children were designed to learn through play and imitation and relationship.  

 

You don't have to be a complete unschooler.  Look into Thomas Jefferson Education or Project based homeschooling.  Those allow freedom within limits.  And you are not going to miss anything.  Children are little sponges that soak up knowledge if the home has an atmosphere that cultivates exploration and discussion.  My kids are all dyslexic too.  They didn't read until some time in their 9th year, all five were like that.  And they didn't 'miss' anything.

 

Your post just broke my heart.  Don't waste those precious years operating out of fear and anxiety!  Read lots of cozy books, bake together, make up silly songs to sing to each other, write each other love notes and sneak them under the pillow (hey reading and writing!).  Relationship counts so much more than filled in workbook sheets.  

 

We go through a charter and they track what lesson we are on in math and LA. So completely stopping those things isn't really an option so long as we're with them and she absolutely loves the program.

[Pronghorn]

For my child who liked to add drama to our homeschool, I charged her a nickel for every gratuitous complaint I listened to. This was very effective in making my daughter slow down and think. And I was very calm all the time. Some kids really crave the chaos they create, so calmness reduces the problems in the long run.

[kbutton]

Just a psychologist. We were greatly feeling like he wasn't working which is why we haven't been back in some time. We hit a point where he said "you guys have tried everything I've given you and I believe you've given it good faith effort. I think it's time to consider meds." We disagreed. We do not want to medicate at this point.

I need to look into a BCBA as I'm clueless. Is this connected to ABA therapy? That was recommended to me on another thread and we haven't had a chance to pursue that yet.

 

Yes, DD can go on and on and on. It can be exactly like a broken record. Sometimes I've literally had to get on her level, look her in the eye and say "you need to stop talking. right now. stop please. stop. talking." in order to snap her out of it.

 

I don't know if I'd be able to do this or not. I struggled all through K with wanting to be relaxed and let her lead the game but also wanting to make sure we didn't skip anything important. I'm very much a completionist and a box checker. I'm not anti-unschooling, and I considered it for a while. But I also realized early that it was not me.

 

Yes, they can do ABA, and I think that is their main tool. But, they know "how much" ABA to incorporate and can be really respectful of the child (If you get one that is not, then look elsewhere). My son does not need full-on ABA, but there is always some kind of behaviorial bent to the things our behaviorist does with him. It really helps. We use her services for social skills, but she undergirds that type of stuff with behavioral and executive functioning supports. It's a good fit.

 

I think that getting a little unschooly can help. My son would not be able to handle full unschooling at all because he needs routine. If you can be unschooly but routine-driven (which I think Ellie is advocating here), you might be able to still scale back on some things or find ways to lessen the stakes with some things. It can help...or it can make things worse. These kids are a bit inconsistent, but I think it's worth considering how you can potentially incorporate some of that advice because it can help to stop and focus on relationship. Our response to outrageous behavior could be to lighten up or to crack down--it was very dependent on reading the changes on the wind, the attitude, etc., and sometimes it was still kind of a guess.

 

In regard to the fine suggestion, my son actually responded pretty well (sometimes fantastically well) to that kind of thing IF his goal was within reach with just a bit of extending himself, but if not, it was disaster. He also sometimes responded well if he also had a chance to earn back what he lost in fines.

 

My son needed to be given "just right" goals to build confidence. (In our case, "just right" was completely unattainable without meds--the highs were way too high, and the lows were way too low, but meds evened out the highs and lows enough that we could ride the waves.)

[JennW in SoCal]

 

Your post just broke my heart.  Don't waste those precious years operating out of fear and anxiety!  Read lots of cozy books, bake together, make up silly songs to sing to each other, write each other love notes and sneak them under the pillow (hey reading and writing!).  Relationship counts so much more than filled in workbook sheets.  

 

:iagree:

 

We go through a charter and they track what lesson we are on in math and LA. So completely stopping those things isn't really an option so long as we're with them and she absolutely loves the program.

 

I graduated my asperger/ADHD/learning challenged ds, oh, 6 years ago, so it's been a while since I've been in the trenches but I remember it well. He argued and fought every step along the way to graduation, but our relationship is still in tact and he is a successful, gainfully employed, college graduate. I was overwhelmed and frustrated more often than not!

 

What helped me was to mentally divide learning into basic skills and general knowledge.  Skills were math and language arts, subjects that can be done in an hour each morning. Absolutely no more than an hour at age 7!  Short, focused and successful lessons are much better in the long run.  Use an incentive chart to reward good behavior and progress in those lessons.  A star each day, and 5 stars earns a treat on Friday.  The carrot worked far better than the stick in our house. (We finally started my ds on meds in late elementary or early middle school. They made such a positive difference for my ds that I deeply regretted not trying them sooner.) 

 

Your charter school should (and legally must) offer accommodations for your child's unique learning challenges. You should be able to play games or do other kinds of lessons for math and language arts and not just be stuck with a standard curriculum. Am I misunderstanding?  All I had to do was to demonstrate progress with our charter school, and I could use any curricula or material I wanted.

 

Everything else should be reading aloud, playing games, doing puzzles, exploring the world, doing crafts.  Read your own books in front of them, pursue your interests -- model what a joy learning is throughout a lifetime. It makes for a much more enjoyable homeschool journey, and over the years it adds up to a very well rounded education. 

[KSinNS]

So my 7 year old has add and a few autism traits and our days can be like yours. For him, less is more. I'm working him in with others so, we have a routine. He doesn't transition well, so when his school time is coming up, he gets a 5 min warning the a 1 minute warning. Then I do give him a minute to transition. Math is usually 20 mins or so. I don't worry abut finishing a lesson, and try to stop before he gets too irritated. I scribe or let him make up his own problems or work on the whiteboard, whatever gets done. Writing is max 10 minutes and then he gets another break to play. Transition warnings, then we do reading (DB) max 10 mins plus he reads a book of his choice to me (my finger in the wind to know when to stop) and we are done. He does lots of other unschooly things, so he is always learning. Poetry tea is always fun. We actually got his evals done this year, and he is working well beyond his abilities in all things except reading, so I know this is working for us. I figure 10 minutes of solid learning is worth far more than an hour of fighting, even if an extra worksheet gets done. Talk to your charter about accommodations. And good luck. I feel your pain. Most of his complaining is overstimulation or transitional, so maybe think about those in your kid.

[TheAttachedMama]

Charlotte Mason talks over and over again about this thing called "habit training". In fact, she says it is one of THE most important things a mother can teach her young children before they are school aged. While other people are trying to teach their preschool aged kids all of this early academics, she said over and over again that habit training needs to be the priority---not handwriting, not counting, not color sorting, not phonics--habits! What did she mean by habit training? She meant teaching a child to get so used to a certain behavior or action or attitude, that they don't even have to put much thought or action into it to make it happen. The longer I homeschool, the more I realize how insightful this advice is.

 

Think about things your daughter DOES do out of habit and without complaint. For example, what does she do when you go somewhere in the car? Does she fall to the floor and complain that she wants to ride in the drivers seat or walk around while you drive? Most likely not. Not because she may not want to walk around while you drive. (Agreeing to be strapped in a seat is not typically something that comes naturally to human beings.) she does this agreeably because 1) from an early age she has always sat in a seat, 2) you probably EXPECT it--you don't allow any other behavior besides this. It has probably become SUCH a habit, that she does it without complaint and without arguing about it each time. That is what ms. Mason was talking about! Human beings are such creatures of habits. If you can instil certain habits in your kids when they are little (for example certain cleanliness habits like handwashing, certain attitude habits like taking a hard job and making the best of it, not giving up when things get hard, being courteous of others, etc etc) your life as a mother gets so much better. In fact, your life together as a family gets so much better. Plus, your daughter will be a better person for it. Instilling a sense of wonder, a sense of perseverance, a sense of honesty, a sense of hard work are all good gifts to give your child---The best gifts in fact!

 

Homeschooling doesn't have to be this thing filled drudgery, animosity, and hardship. But without this foundation of teaching better attitudes and better habits, I have found that that is exactly what it becomes. Are you feeling good when your daughter fights you so much about everything you ask her to do? Do you think your daughter feels good while she is fighting? (The answer is probably no. It does NOT feel good to have to go to war with your mom everyday when you are 7. And I'd be willing to bet she honestly feels very unhappy right now. ). Does your 3 year old feel good about things? No! In short, a seven year olds bad attitude is effecting the *whole* family in a negative way. do you see why it is something that is so important to work on? That is why ms mason put such an emphasis on teaching these things at an early age. A child can learn to count or read or write easily when they have these good habits in place. Right now your daughter has bad habits in place. She is used to fighting and complaining and dragging her feet when she has hard work to do. Learning becomes this horrible experience for all involved---and any learning that does happen takes 10 times as long and twice as much effort! This is stealing your family's peace and joy. In short, this is a huge problem. do You want to make homeschooling work? Then I suggest making solving this problem your first priority for awhile. OVER accademics. Those will come easily once you have addressed this attitude problem. Not to mention, your daughter will just be a better person for learning these skills in life. Do you want her to give up every time things get hard? No. Do you want her to be the type of kid who is unhappy all of the time because they honestly think they are being overly put upon when asked to do the slightest thing? No.

 

My suggestion on how to teach:

1) pick one reasonable think and work on that at a time. Prioritize the behavior you want to work on. What's the one thing you could change that would have the biggest impact on your day? Let's say that you are going to work on not complaining when your child is asked to do something. (You can work on dragging feet or not working hard later or getting ready in the morning .)

2). Expect your child to do this new behavior. Draw a hard line in the sand. You probably don't even entertain the idea of your child walking around the car while you drive? Right? That is why sitting in your car seat has become an unquestioned habit. You expect it to happen. Same thing is going to happen with school work and chores. Assuming you have reasonable expectations for your daughter, expect school work and chores to happen without complaint. (Note: I don't mean without dialogue and relationship. If your daughter needs to talk to you about something that isn't working, you want to encourage a healthy dialogue. She needs to feel like she can come to you when she needs to, and you will listen. But talking together in a mutually respectful way about what she likes and doesn't like is NOT same thing as complaining. The difference needs to be taught.)

3) the teaching. Be prepared to talk a lot about why approaching each task in a happy way is a good attitude to have. Give her examples from your own life about why this is a good way to live. Let her know that people who can master this are often much more happy feeling.example: "Man, in my old job we used to have a lady who complained about every little thing...)she spent more energy and time with thinking up reasons she couldn't get the job done than actually solving the problem...." Model the behavior. Talk out loud to her about how YOU feel when you have to do something you would rather not do. "Alright, I have to get these toilets clean today. I really don't want to do it. But--I'm going to jump in , work hard, and do it with a good attitude even though I'd rather be reading my book. But I know getting them clean will make things better for our whole family--so I'm just going to do it with a happy heart." Model gratitude. "Sometimes I feel really frustrated that there is this never ending pile of dishes to wash and clothes to clean, but then I remind myself how lucky we are to have dishes and clothes to clean!!" Or "aren't we lucky to be able to snuggle on the couch together when you do spelling? And look at all of the sunlight (or view we have). You could be doing this in an ugly cement block room, but instead you have the warm sunlight on your back and your pet to keep you company. ". Constantly point out the good and beauty throughout your day. This will train your child to start to notice it. Praise them when they do. Because the truth is, no matter how menial the task is, you can almost always find something to be thankful for, some good in it, some beauty. It is learning to look for that that you teach.

 

Also, let your child know that schooling or chores are going to happen one way or another. That is just how it is. We all have jobs and work to do in life. That is just how life is. We don't get to sit around and do nothing every day. We have to workin some way. Let her know that she is important. She is a huge part of the family. Her contributions are needed! The family can't run well without her. We are all in this thing together!

 

3). Consequences. Sometimes all of our teaching and long talks seem to do no good. So there are times when I have had to give consequences for bad behavior. I like to nip it in the bud before the bad behavior becomes a habit. And our house, my school is something that you get to do. It is a privilege. I try to keep the lessons as short as possible. I make sure I only ask reasonable things of my children. I've researched curriculum options, and I try to teach the things my child needs to know and the most fun and best way possible. So, when whining starts, they know it is not going to get them out of school. In fact, it buys them MORE work. If they complain about having to write one single line on a handwriting sheet (reasonable, short lesson) I up it to two lines. If the attitude is bad in everything, I tell them wipes they don't *get* to do writing today! Now they are going to learn to clean the toilets. The alternative is not to sit around and play all morning. The alternative is other different work. But a short amount of work is going to happen

 

 

 

 

 

I read that when my kids were little, but I never really put the emphasis on it that Charlotte mason suggests.

[Heathermomster]

Words of advice?

 

Maybe consider stepping over to the Learning Challenges Board.  

[fourisenough]

I haven't read all the responses to your OP, but my gut reaction is that your DD7 sounds a lot like my DD6 did before we got a proper diagnosis (anxiety, panic disorder, and possibly the Obsesive thoughts of OCD). Months into therapy and medication and she is a DIFFERENT child. What presented as bad behavior was, in our case, wildly out of control anxiety. Just sharing in case anything resonates.

[Janeway]

Is sending her to school an option?

 

I know, I might not be much help. But I had one like that. I ended up sending him back to public school. He dragged his feet there, but it did not work for him. And he couldn't take all my attention away from the younger children. I still had to stay on stuff and make sure his teacher knew that I wanted her to keep discipline with my child. I think a lot of parents get angry if their perfect princess misses recess or something. So I made it clear to the teacher to please stay on my child and enforce her rules and such, and that I would support her. It went well. 

[The Governess]

Some ideas:

 

Put away the expectation that this child will be able to do any sort of independent work right now. Plan on sitting with her for all subjects.

 

Limit seat work to an hour to an hour and a half a day. Break it up into manageable chunks. Set a timer and don't let it drag out.

 

Have logical consequences for attitude. My favorite book, which saved my relationship with a very stubborn child, is "Setting Limits With Your Strong-Willed Child." She needed very clear boundaries and very clearly communicated and followed-up-on consequences.

 

I think with a stubborn child it is easy to fall into the habit of waiting for them. Things improved so much when I stopped waiting. For example, set a schedule of fun school activities in the morning - read aloud, science project, etc. and if she isn't ready at the scheduled time don't wait for her, do them with your other child. Take her needs and wants into consideration, but don't give her power over your day.

 

My stubborn kid is neurotypucal, but I could relate to the frustration you shared in your posts and thought maybe some of the things that helped me might help you, too. She is 11 now and things have gotten much easier. :)

Edited January 9, 2016 by lovelearnandlive

[TheAttachedMama]

Charlotte Mason talks over and over again about this thing called "habit training". In fact, she says it is one of THE most important things a mother can teach her young children before they are school aged. While other people are trying to teach their preschool aged kids all of this early academics, she said over and over again that habit training needs to be the priority---not handwriting, not counting, not color sorting, not phonics--habits! What did she mean by habit training? She meant teaching a child to get so used to a certain behavior or action or attitude, that they don't even have to put much thought or action into it to make it happen. The longer I homeschool, the more I realize how insightful this advice is.

Think about things your daughter DOES do out of habit and without complaint. For example, what does she do when you go somewhere in the car? Does she fall to the floor and complain that she wants to ride in the drivers seat or walk around while you drive? Most likely not. Not because she may not want to walk around while you drive. (Agreeing to be strapped in a seat is not typically something that comes naturally to human beings.) she does this agreeably because 1) from an early age she has always sat in a seat, 2) you probably EXPECT it--you don't allow any other behavior besides this. It has probably become SUCH a habit, that she does it without complaint and without arguing about it each time. That is what ms. Mason was talking about! Human beings are such creatures of habits. If you can instil certain habits in your kids when they are little (for example certain cleanliness habits like handwashing, certain attitude habits like taking a hard job and making the best of it, not giving up when things get hard, being courteous of others, etc etc) your life as a mother gets so much better. In fact, your life together as a family gets so much better. Plus, your daughter will be a better person for it. Instilling a sense of wonder, a sense of perseverance, a sense of honesty, a sense of hard work are all good gifts to give your child---The best gifts in fact!

Homeschooling doesn't have to be this thing filled drudgery, animosity, and hardship. But without this foundation of teaching better attitudes and better habits, I have found that that is exactly what it becomes. Are you feeling good when your daughter fights you so much about everything you ask her to do? Do you think your daughter feels good while she is fighting? (The answer is probably no. It does NOT feel good to have to go to war with your mom everyday when you are 7. And I'd be willing to bet she honestly feels very unhappy right now. ). Does your 3 year old feel good about things? No! In short, a seven year olds bad attitude is effecting the *whole* family in a negative way. do you see why it is something that is so important to work on? That is why ms mason put such an emphasis on teaching these things at an early age. A child can learn to count or read or write easily when they have these good habits in place. Right now your daughter has bad habits in place. She is used to fighting and complaining and dragging her feet when she has hard work to do. Learning becomes this horrible experience for all involved---and any learning that does happen takes 10 times as long and twice as much effort! This is stealing your family's peace and joy. In short, this is a huge problem. do You want to make homeschooling work? Then I suggest making solving this problem your first priority for awhile. OVER accademics. Those will come easily once you have addressed this attitude problem. Not to mention, your daughter will just be a better person for learning these skills in life. Do you want her to give up every time things get hard? No. Do you want her to be the type of kid who is unhappy all of the time because they honestly think they are being overly put upon when asked to do the slightest thing? No.

My suggestion on how to teach:
1) pick one reasonable think and work on that at a time. Prioritize the behavior you want to work on. What's the one thing you could change that would have the biggest impact on your day? Let's say that you are going to work on not complaining when your child is asked to do something. (You can work on dragging feet or not working hard later or getting ready in the morning .)
2). Expect your child to do this new behavior. Draw a hard line in the sand. You probably don't even entertain the idea of your child walking around the car while you drive? Right? That is why sitting in your car seat has become an unquestioned habit. You expect it to happen. Same thing is going to happen with school work and chores. Assuming you have reasonable expectations for your daughter, expect school work and chores to happen without complaint. (Note: I don't mean without dialogue and relationship. If your daughter needs to talk to you about something that isn't working, you want to encourage a healthy dialogue. She needs to feel like she can come to you when she needs to, and you will listen. But talking together in a mutually respectful way about what she likes and doesn't like is NOT same thing as complaining. The difference needs to be taught.)
3) the teaching. Be prepared to talk a lot about why approaching each task in a happy way is a good attitude to have. Give her examples from your own life about why this is a good way to live. Let her know that people who can master this are often much more happy feeling.example: "Man, in my old job we used to have a lady who complained about every little thing...)she spent more energy and time with thinking up reasons she couldn't get the job done than actually solving the problem...." Model the behavior. Talk out loud to her about how YOU feel when you have to do something you would rather not do. "Alright, I have to get these toilets clean today. I really don't want to do it. But--I'm going to jump in , work hard, and do it with a good attitude even though I'd rather be reading my book. But I know getting them clean will make things better for our whole family--so I'm just going to do it with a happy heart." Model gratitude. "Sometimes I feel really frustrated that there is this never ending pile of dishes to wash and clothes to clean, but then I remind myself how lucky we are to have dishes and clothes to clean!!" Or "aren't we lucky to be able to snuggle on the couch together when you do spelling? And look at all of the sunlight (or view we have). You could be doing this in an ugly cement block room, but instead you have the warm sunlight on your back and your pet to keep you company. ". Constantly point out the good and beauty throughout your day. This will train your child to start to notice it. Praise them when they do. Because the truth is, no matter how menial the task is, you can almost always find something to be thankful for, some good in it, some beauty. It is learning to look for that that you teach.

Also, let your child know that schooling or chores are going to happen one way or another. That is just how it is. We all have jobs and work to do in life. That is just how life is. We don't get to sit around and do nothing every day. We have to workin some way. Let her know that she is important. She is a huge part of the family. Her contributions are needed! The family can't run well without her. We are all in this thing together!

3). Consequences. Sometimes all of our teaching and long talks seem to do no good.   The child continues with the bad behavior no matter how much teaching we try to do.  So there are times when I have had to give consequences for bad behavior.  I like to nip it in the bud before the bad behavior becomes a habit.   Once they get used to acting a certain way, it is harder to change.  (Habits can be negative too.)   You will have to decide for yourself what those consequences will look like in your house.   I will share what we do in case it is helpful....

 

At our house, school is something that you get to do.   It is a privilege.   If they start complaining about that privilege, I am quick to take it away.   BUT the alternative is not sitting around idle all day.  No way!   I try to keep our lessons as short as possible.   I make sure I only ask reasonable things of my children. I've researched curriculum options, and I try to teach the things my child needs to know and the most fun and effective way possible.   So, when whining starts, they know it is not going to get them out of school or chores.   The first time they do it, they get more of whatever they are complaining about.   If they start to complain about being asked to wipe their bathroom counter, I then add a second bathroom.    If they start to complain about picking up their dirty clothes, I then tell them they need to fold the laundry.   If they complain about a single line of handwriting practice, I make it two.   Complaining will get your more work--not less in my house.   And when I add this work, the world pretty much stands still until it gets done.   No TV, No Friends, No going out to play until the work is finished.   This may sound harsh---but this is a firm line I draw in the sand.   Nip the behavior in the bud.   (Also reminder, this is done ON TOP of all of the teaching and character building.   This is done when that teaching is ignored.)   

 

I also mentioned that school is a privilege in our house.   We talk all of the time about how blessed we are to have access to an education.   Many children around the world do not get that luxury.    As a busy mom, I have a lot of on my plate.   I am NOT going to waste my time trying to teach a pupil who is not willing to learn.   SO--If the attitude about school becomes really bad (after a warning or two)--- I will announce in a VERY calm voice that they have now lost the privilege of doing school for the day.   I will say, "You no longer get to do spelling."  or "Math time is over for you know."

 

But the alternative is not that you get to go play all day while mama slaves away to keep the house running.  No way!  We are all in this together.   If they don't want to do school, I can certainly find alternatives for them.   Usually my alternatives are not as fun as school.  

 

You don't like to do a short and fun lesson with All about spelling where you get to move some magnets around a board?   You can now go and learn to clean all of the toilets in the house.  

You don't want to do a 15 minute math lesson, that is fine!   The showers also need to be cleaned, then you can sweep and mop the floor.  

I had to do this just last week, and they were begging me to please, please let them come and do school again.  (NOW--fi the child woul rather clean toilets than do math---you might want to consider a curriculum change!!)    The great thing about a messy house is that you can ALWAYS find things for that kid to do when they start to whine.   That is how I handle consequences for whining in our house.  

Edited January 9, 2016 by TheAttachedMama

[OnMyOwn]

I try to make it so the 3yo can join us and so that I can alternate my time with them. I've found if I don't get time in with my 3yo right off the bat, she is quite needy and doesn't let us get through a lesson. So right now I have DD7 starting with a critical thinking game and then handwriting. I am right there just a few feet away, but working with my 3yo who absolutely loves her AAR and begs for it from the moment we're done with breakfast. But my 7yo doesn't want to do her work, she wants to come join us. So when we're done I either have to have her skip those things to move onto AAS which needs my full attention (while I can, before 3yo gets antsy), or I work with her on those and then we may or may not get through AAS before 3yo is climbing all over me wanting attention. Ideally at this point she would work on a couple pages of language smarts while I sit close by and do something with 3yo for a few minutes, but this usually doesn't happen. 3yo does join us for read-alouds and science. Math and spelling are the main ones I need 3yo's tank to be full for so we aren't being constantly interrupted.

 

I keep coming up with schedules/routines that work on paper to split my time between them and make sure 3yo isn't spending long periods of time alone or that 7yo is being expected to be independent for too long (and I'm always right there, we have a combined playroom/schoolroom.) But 7yo doesn't want to miss anything 3yo is doing, so she doesn't allow us to double up our time like that. I have to be at her elbow for 100% of what she does, which leaves 3yo "on her own" more and just makes our day take that much longer. She cries that she doesn't have play time with her sister, but she won't just do her work. Especially if I so much as look away or speak to her sister, but even with my full attention, she drags it out.

 

Wow, that sounds really hard. It looks like you are really trying to balance things out, but fighting an uphill battle. I haven't read all the replies, but can you just focus on math and reading skills with your 7 year old and pare things down as much as possible? How about a mother's helper for a couple of hours in the morning so you can fully focus on working with your 7 year old?

 

I think I'd be tempted to carve out no more than 2 hours a day, and probably less, for formal instruction in reading, writing and math (not all at once if that's too much) and then whatever is done in that time is done and what isn't done will just have to wait. And I think you need to consider dropping the charter if that is putting extra pressure in you "to get things done". I know you said your dd loves the program, but you can find something else that she loves that. And really, from what you have described, it doesn't sound like she loves it enough. Really, rethink the charter and the price you are paying to continue with it.

Edited January 9, 2016 by OnMyOwn

[Seeking Squirrels]

I only have a minute this morning, but I am catching up with reading the replies and will be back on tonight to respond. Thank you all for taking the time to give me your thoughts, very much appreciated!

[PeterPan]

SPD, ADHD, and possible HFA. Yes, definitely makes things harder!

 

I was wondering if that was the case.  Now to address some things suggested in the thread.  

 

Passivity.  It's really not passivity.  It's more like YOU are the one being traumatized.  And people who've btdt know what I mean.  Parents of kids with spectrum will have PTSD levels of stress hormones.  

 

Two, unschooling.  There's a lot of room to discuss there, even without having to go all the way to that (load, sometimes objectionable to some people) term.  There's really a LOT of room there to harness the alternatives and contextualized learning, engaged learning, collaboration.  That could be a strong component of an approach.  Not the ONLY component, but a strong component.  In fact, the more you are flexible and go toward that, the more you're teaching HER how to be flexible.  There are LOTS of good reasons to pursue this strategy.  

 

Three, for the implication that you're just not firm enough.  I hope anyone who has saying that has parented SPD/HFA/ASD.  I guilt trip myself with that an awful lot, and every time I go NOW IS THE DAY OF DELIVERANCE, NOW I WILL WIN WARS, all I do is make wars.  ;)  Don't make wars.  Make peace by understanding the disabilities and working with the disabilities.  There are lots of good techniques beyond making war.  There are lots of reason to collaborate, to model flexibility (NOT rigidity), to model strong social skills (problem solving, expressing emotions, perspective taking, collaboration).  Winning is not the only way to win.  I was just reading the beginning of No More Meltdowns by Baker.  When I first read it, it didn't click nearly as much as it does for me now.  Might be timely for you.  Also The Explosive Child by Greene.

 

Four, yes come over to LC.  We bite.  (just joking) 

 

Meds.  Kbutton mentioned that her ds couldn't achieve their behavioral goals before meds.  You've said you don't want them, but you're describing a LOT of inattention and impulsivity.  If you don't want meds, then adding some other things to your approach (OT, sensory breaks, etc.) could help.  Mindfulness is another than that can improve EF.  10-15 min of mindfulness in the morning can improve EF by 30%!!  There's a program Mind Up that teaches you to do this, and there are books like Sitting Like a Frog (I think, I have it in my library pile, unread, oops.)  For sensory breaks, it can be heavy lifting, movement, metronome work, School Moves/Focus Moves, whatever.  You'd get tons of ideas for this over on LC.  I just had a meeting with our IEP team, and they were saying I need to increase sensory breaks, that he should have them literally between each thing.  My ds is not on meds, which makes him extra challenging to work with.  I get there are lots of arguments.  I'm just saying if you're not open to meds you really need to get some OTHER things going to fill in that gap.

 

Ok, now for something (I think?) nobody said.  Visual schedules.  Visual schedules improve communication, even in verbal children, and they are a standard technique the ps would implement for the disabilities your dc has.  You can go to boardmaker and make them yourself.  You can go to Teachers Pay Teachers and download a set for under $5.  Visual schedules are where it's at.  You can improve communication, collaboration, and choice.  You can make it easier to communicate her need for breaks.  You can model flexibility with a First/Then chart for when things pop up.  I guarantee you a LOT of the challenges you're having could be addressed with a visual schedule system.

 

Next, independent work.  On TPT, Christine Reeve has her Autism Classroom News store with what she calls a "Structured Work System."  This is what you need.  No more of this plunking them somewhere and being frustrated that they walked away or didn't attend.  I think I've shared on Flickr pictures of my ds' independent work station, his visual schedules and his notebook for the pieces, etc.  Here, try this for TPT for the work stations  Structured Work System Starter Kit for Autism--Elementary Version

 

And here is the visual schedule link  

Autism Pre-K - Elementary Classroom Visual Bundle Solid Colors (special ed)

 

Everything Christine Reeve does is fabulous.  I was just realizing we could rebalance our work a new way this semester.  I think we constantly have to improve, change, and grow as teachers.  It takes some work to set this up, yes.  You'll spend a couple hours printing, laminating, cutting, putting on velcro dots.  But once it's DONE, wow, wow, wow!!!!  You cannot BELIEVE how lovely it is to have kids really clear on what the plan is, to know their steps, to be able to reference and work independently.  Work systems like this have GOALS and REWARDS built in!!  Christine even has token boards you can download for free so you could set up a token/reward system for whatever you're trying to incentivize.  Behavioralism uses token/reward systems like this.  It helps them get over hurdles of things that are hard, and it's not a permanent thing but a learning tool.

 

Like the others, I would suggest you work them together.  Me, I'd put one kid on the right, the other on the left.  You know another thing you could do is give sensory input to this dc to calm her.  We've talked about doing some sensory or mindfulness before you even start.  That would be good.  But then you can put a wiggle cushion under her bum, one under her feet.  She could wear headphones with calming music that helps her feel more focused.  My dd does this a LOT.  She could use kinesio tape or a compression shirt.  You could use a weighted lap pad.  You HAVE OPTIONS.  

 

It's tricky with those ages together, definitely.  My ds is 7 and he is just fine being in with preschoolers for things.  He has NO CLUE that he's different, and a lot of his skills will be similar (or lower) than the other kids in the class.  Now granted he's also listening to college lectures and building K'nex roller coasters with me, meaning he doesn't fit in, lol.  I'm just saying it's ok to blend ages like that.  If they both need the same things just done at different levels, that works especially well.  Like both work on handwriting (with a timer, using the visual schedules) and then they wait when they finish and have that time to fidget with desirable fidget toys while the other finishes.  Then they both move on to the next visual schedule card together.  That could really work!  I would create some structure like that, and I would use the schedules for BOTH kids.  Even that can be a really good learning experience for her, because then she's having to collaborate and give/take with more than one person!  Rather than viewing these things as the obstacles, they literally become THE LESSONS.  

 

The social skills she learns through this are MORE IMPORTANT than the academics, guaranteed.  Social skills are THE determiner of employability, not academics.  It's why stories like Jenn's work out so well, because in reality by working so much with him she developed in him flexibility, the ability to collaborate, to express how he feels, etc., all of which feeds into his current success.  

[kbutton]

Just a note that visual schedules don't have to be pictoral to work--it varies by child. Some are fine with words. I wish we had known about ready made materials when my son was younger--they would have been a lifesaver. I couldn't really take the time to figure them out and make them myself. We had no diagnosis at the time, so no one would have been able to tell us about stuff available.

 

To tell you how profoundly helpful it is for my son to know what's coming up, let me just mention that starting at around six months old, he would NOT SIT in a carseat until I told him where we were going. He was a little muscleman, and he would arch his back, etc. until he was about to topple on the floor of the car, unless I'd say, "We're going to the grocery store" or "We're going to church." If I told him where we were going, he'd plop his little behind in there and sit perfectly still while I buckled him in.

 

These kids need information to maintain some sense of self control. That is what visual schedules do.

[Incognito]

The book, What to do When you Grumble Too Much, would be a great one for you and your DD to go through together.  It talks about attitude and obstacles in life.  It could give you and your DD a good way to talk about having a positive attitude, and give you both a common vocabulary for moving forward in a positive way.

 

It does sound like your child has a lot of anxiety which is coming out in controlling and grumbling behaviors.  It also sounds like you do have a routine in place, it just isn't one that any of you like!  

 

For us, some things that have helped:

 

Things should not be repeated more than three times.  This is one of our rules.  I have explained this MANY times - how it is socially unacceptable to keep repeating the information.  I am sure knowing the rule helps some with internally stopping the monologue on their own, but for the most part it has helped me be able to quickly remind them when a topic must be done.  I will say something like, "You've said that more than three times now" or "remember, I have heard your idea and know what you think, now it is time to stop saying it" and they are not defensive and angry about it, they know that is a social rule and I am just reminding them to stop.  If they say it again I will repeat again -  "That is about the same thing, and that is more than three times.  Please stop."  I also remind for good things they are talking about, not just complaints, so it is clearly about the repetition, not just about grumbling.

 

Kids are to be dressed and ready before breakfast.  Breakfast is at 8:30 or before.  If child comes down before 9am, they can have a little something they eat quickly, if they come down after that they missed breakfast and eat at lunchtime.  Of course I help them learn to get themselves ready, but when they are able to do it they are expected to do it.  They have clocks in their rooms.  I will even tell them "It is 8:30!"  YES, the day or two they first skip breakfast is miserable for all of us.  I just tell myself to be compassionate (I'm sorry you missed breakfast, I am sure it is frustrating!  The kitchen will open again at lunchtime.  You'll get better at making it on time!  Rinse and repeat).  Then they start coming on time, and they get themselves ready for their day (I am not dragging them through it).  Much nicer for all involved.  As long as I keep the attitude of compassionate cheerleader, not angry coach.

 

FWIW, It sounds like what you are choosing to use for academics isn't suiting your family well.  It may be great material, but it doesn't sound like it is functioning well for you and your household.  I agree that shifting how you choose to learn as a family will likely be very positive for all of you.  If that means changing curricula, that's fine.  If it means having a certain thing for your 3yo to do in another room for the 1 hour you do math and LA with your older child, that's fine (a video, perhaps?).  For lower elementary math, games really are a GREAT way to internalize the facts and the way numbers work.  It isn't lowering your standards to intentionally use games, it is changing the media to suit the user.    

 

It is hard to have one of those terrible, horrible, no good very bad days.  If they are happening too often, it is important to look at what you may need to refill your tank of patience so you are able to shine the attitude  you want your kids to reflect, instead of reflecting the attitude they are dumping on you.

 

HTH

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2016 by Incognito

[Tiramisu]

For my dear OP, hugs, hugs, and more hugs. 

 

What works for neurotypical kids will probably not work as well for your dd, and could be harmful to her, to you, and to your relationship. For your sanity and to preserve your dd's wholeness, be careful to take advice from those who have BTDT with ASD/SPD kids. Listen to OhE and kbutton for a start.

 

More hugs!

[Heathermomster]

Maybe explore Zones of Regulation to help with emotional control and get an OT/pediatric PT evaluation to address any prim reflexes and other developmental motor issues that affect behavior and learning.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Heathermomster

[Seeking Squirrels]

Yes, they can do ABA, and I think that is their main tool. But, they know "how much" ABA to incorporate and can be really respectful of the child (If you get one that is not, then look elsewhere). My son does not need full-on ABA, but there is always some kind of behaviorial bent to the things our behaviorist does with him. It really helps. We use her services for social skills, but she undergirds that type of stuff with behavioral and executive functioning supports. It's a good fit.

 

I think that getting a little unschooly can help. My son would not be able to handle full unschooling at all because he needs routine. If you can be unschooly but routine-driven (which I think Ellie is advocating here), you might be able to still scale back on some things or find ways to lessen the stakes with some things. It can help...or it can make things worse. These kids are a bit inconsistent, but I think it's worth considering how you can potentially incorporate some of that advice because it can help to stop and focus on relationship. Our response to outrageous behavior could be to lighten up or to crack down--it was very dependent on reading the changes on the wind, the attitude, etc., and sometimes it was still kind of a guess.

 

In regard to the fine suggestion, my son actually responded pretty well (sometimes fantastically well) to that kind of thing IF his goal was within reach with just a bit of extending himself, but if not, it was disaster. He also sometimes responded well if he also had a chance to earn back what he lost in fines.

 

My son needed to be given "just right" goals to build confidence. (In our case, "just right" was completely unattainable without meds--the highs were way too high, and the lows were way too low, but meds evened out the highs and lows enough that we could ride the waves.)

Sometimes I have the urge to crack down hard and then it backfires or I think we need to lighten up and then it gets worse. I feel like I always choose the wrong way to go.

 

Would I go through our pediatrician or our OT to get connected to a BCBA?

 

 

......

 

Your charter school should (and legally must) offer accommodations for your child's unique learning challenges. You should be able to play games or do other kinds of lessons for math and language arts and not just be stuck with a standard curriculum. Am I misunderstanding?  All I had to do was to demonstrate progress with our charter school, and I could use any curricula or material I wanted.

 

.....

 

We can use whatever curriculum we want, but they track the progress through it and set goals for the next monthly meeting. So for example at our last meeting she was on lesson 58 in math. We do school 4 days a week, and we meet once a month. So they set a goal of 16 lessons by next meeting and they'll ask what lesson we are on. We do the same for the LA resources we use. They don't track anything else. I can talk to her ES and find out what it will mean if we drop or change something or if we make less progress than expected. I really have no idea.

So my 7 year old has add and a few autism traits and our days can be like yours. For him, less is more. I'm working him in with others so, we have a routine. He doesn't transition well, so when his school time is coming up, he gets a 5 min warning the a 1 minute warning. Then I do give him a minute to transition. Math is usually 20 mins or so. I don't worry abut finishing a lesson, and try to stop before he gets too irritated. I scribe or let him make up his own problems or work on the whiteboard, whatever gets done. Writing is max 10 minutes and then he gets another break to play. Transition warnings, then we do reading (DB) max 10 mins plus he reads a book of his choice to me (my finger in the wind to know when to stop) and we are done. He does lots of other unschooly things, so he is always learning. Poetry tea is always fun. We actually got his evals done this year, and he is working well beyond his abilities in all things except reading, so I know this is working for us. I figure 10 minutes of solid learning is worth far more than an hour of fighting, even if an extra worksheet gets done. Talk to your charter about accommodations. And good luck. I feel your pain. Most of his complaining is overstimulation or transitional, so maybe think about those in your kid.

I'm going to try to keep her lessons shorter. I never intend for them to go long, but I think they often do just from distractions and letting her drag it out but still trying to get through the same amount of material.

[Seeking Squirrels]

......

The thing is, she actually doesn't just sit in her seat out of habit and without complaint. When we get in the car, she just stands there. I have to tell her every. single. time. to take off her coat and sit down. Then I have to tell her to buckle. Often she gets upset at these commands. No, she doesn't ask to sit in the drivers seat or truly ask to be up and about, but neither does she simply comply with getting buckled in her seat.

 

I'm all for building good habits, but she doesn't exactly pick them up so easily. Right now with her OT our goal is "get dressed, brush teeth, brush hair" when told "get ready". She has a visual picture checklist taped to her dresser to remind her of each step. (And she's not yet brushing her own hair. That is goal number 2.) These things have been done since she was born, but she still needs *constant* reminders of what all needs done.

 

Words of advice?

 

Maybe consider stepping over to the Learning Challenges Board.  

I've been over there a couple of times, but maybe I need to become more familiar with it. ;)

 

I haven't read all the responses to your OP, but my gut reaction is that your DD7 sounds a lot like my DD6 did before we got a proper diagnosis (anxiety, panic disorder, and possibly the Obsesive thoughts of OCD). Months into therapy and medication and she is a DIFFERENT child. What presented as bad behavior was, in our case, wildly out of control anxiety. Just sharing in case anything resonates.

We have wondered about OCD, but the psychologist at least didn't bring it up. We do think we need some more evaluations, but that's a whole 'nother thread! (Which I actually did have a while back)

[Seeking Squirrels]

Is sending her to school an option?

 

I know, I might not be much help. But I had one like that. I ended up sending him back to public school. He dragged his feet there, but it did not work for him. And he couldn't take all my attention away from the younger children. I still had to stay on stuff and make sure his teacher knew that I wanted her to keep discipline with my child. I think a lot of parents get angry if their perfect princess misses recess or something. So I made it clear to the teacher to please stay on my child and enforce her rules and such, and that I would support her. It went well. 

 

We feel like right now at least she wouldn't do so well in a ps environment. Maybe I'm not realistic in what I see, but I think she would fall through the cracks. When she's in other environments like that, she's oddly much calmer than at home, but no more attentive or able to stay on track. She doesn't pay attention when directions are given to her as part of a group. Like at tumbling, when the coach says to do something, all the other kids comply, DD takes a minute until she sees the other kids doing whatever and then she does it. Or the coach goes to her directly and tells her what to do. It's like she isn't aware that she's been told to do something. I can't imagine how she'd learn a thing during a lesson in a ps classroom.

Some ideas:

 

Put away the expectation that this child will be able to do any sort of independent work right now. Plan on sitting with her for all subjects.

 

Limit seat work to an hour to an hour and a half a day. Break it up into manageable chunks. Set a timer and don't let it drag out.

 

Have logical consequences for attitude. My favorite book, which saved my relationship with a very stubborn child, is "Setting Limits With Your Strong-Willed Child." She needed very clear boundaries and very clearly communicated and followed-up-on consequences.

 

I think with a stubborn child it is easy to fall into the habit of waiting for them. Things improved so much when I stopped waiting. For example, set a schedule of fun school activities in the morning - read aloud, science project, etc. and if she isn't ready at the scheduled time don't wait for her, do them with your other child. Take her needs and wants into consideration, but don't give her power over your day.

 

My stubborn kid is neurotypucal, but I could relate to the frustration you shared in your posts and thought maybe some of the things that helped me might help you, too. She is 11 now and things have gotten much easier. :)

I'm trying to let go of any idea of independence. I never expected too much, just a little here and there so I can spend time with 3yo. But I realize that's just spinning my wheels and not actually saving us any time.

 

Wow, that sounds really hard. It looks like you are really trying to balance things out, but fighting an uphill battle. I haven't read all the replies, but can you just focus on math and reading skills with your 7 year old and pare things down as much as possible? How about a mother's helper for a couple of hours in the morning so you can fully focus on working with your 7 year old?

 

I think I'd be tempted to carve out no more than 2 hours a day, and probably less, for formal instruction in reading, writing and math (not all at once if that's too much) and then whatever is done in that time is done and what isn't done will just have to wait. And I think you need to consider dropping the charter if that is putting extra pressure in you "to get things done". I know you said your dd loves the program, but you can find something else that she loves that. And really, from what you have described, it doesn't sound like she loves it enough. Really, rethink the charter and the price you are paying to continue with it.

The part she loves about the charter is the "epic day". She is there all day once a week and they do drama, music, pe, "ooey gooey science", and arts and crafts type stuff. She has friends there and gets to eat lunch with them. And just as important, it gives me a day off from her. That's actually why we started it last year. I truly needed the one day a week off. And that's 3yo's day, she gets mommy all to herself. I'll take the stress of reporting to her ES for that. I just need to clarify with them what I can do differently and try not to worry about their expectations.

[Seeking Squirrels]

I was wondering if that was the case.  Now to address some things suggested in the thread.  

 

Passivity.  It's really not passivity.  It's more like YOU are the one being traumatized.  And people who've btdt know what I mean.  Parents of kids with spectrum will have PTSD levels of stress hormones.  

I'd never heard this before, but goodness that would explain a bit. I am always feeling so stressed and then beating myself up for feeling like I'm not cut out for this parenting gig if it stresses me out so much.

 

Two, unschooling.  There's a lot of room to discuss there, even without having to go all the way to that (load, sometimes objectionable to some people) term.  There's really a LOT of room there to harness the alternatives and contextualized learning, engaged learning, collaboration.  That could be a strong component of an approach.  Not the ONLY component, but a strong component.  In fact, the more you are flexible and go toward that, the more you're teaching HER how to be flexible.  There are LOTS of good reasons to pursue this strategy.  

 

Flexible is so hard for me. I think I'm actually aspie myself so maybe that plays a part. I start to panic if I'm not checking off the boxes I think need checked. I need to relax, I just fear failing her by not doing enough.

 

Three, for the implication that you're just not firm enough.  I hope anyone who has saying that has parented SPD/HFA/ASD.  I guilt trip myself with that an awful lot, and every time I go NOW IS THE DAY OF DELIVERANCE, NOW I WILL WIN WARS, all I do is make wars.   ;)  Don't make wars.  Make peace by understanding the disabilities and working with the disabilities.  There are lots of good techniques beyond making war.  There are lots of reason to collaborate, to model flexibility (NOT rigidity), to model strong social skills (problem solving, expressing emotions, perspective taking, collaboration).  Winning is not the only way to win.  I was just reading the beginning of No More Meltdowns by Baker.  When I first read it, it didn't click nearly as much as it does for me now.  Might be timely for you.  Also The Explosive Child by Greene.

I started The Explosive Child over a year ago and never got very far because, well, life. It's on my to-read pile, I will move it up. I will look into the other, too.

Four, yes come over to LC.  We bite.  (just joking) 

I've been over a bit, I will come more. :)

Meds.  Kbutton mentioned that her ds couldn't achieve their behavioral goals before meds.  You've said you don't want them, but you're describing a LOT of inattention and impulsivity.  If you don't want meds, then adding some other things to your approach (OT, sensory breaks, etc.) could help.  Mindfulness is another than that can improve EF.  10-15 min of mindfulness in the morning can improve EF by 30%!!  There's a program Mind Up that teaches you to do this, and there are books like Sitting Like a Frog (I think, I have it in my library pile, unread, oops.)  For sensory breaks, it can be heavy lifting, movement, metronome work, School Moves/Focus Moves, whatever.  You'd get tons of ideas for this over on LC.  I just had a meeting with our IEP team, and they were saying I need to increase sensory breaks, that he should have them literally between each thing.  My ds is not on meds, which makes him extra challenging to work with.  I get there are lots of arguments.  I'm just saying if you're not open to meds you really need to get some OTHER things going to fill in that gap.

She's in OT and I try to do sensory breaks, but I should do more. I will look into those resources. We are still considering meds. It's something that scares me because I've tried a few that make me feel so disconnected and zombie-like and I just fear that it will do that to DD, but we won't realize. All the things about her that make her behavior frustrating, are also what makes her, her. I don't want to change that. I will look into the resources on mindfulness, that's not something I'd heard of.

 

Ok, now for something (I think?) nobody said.  Visual schedules.  Visual schedules improve communication, even in verbal children, and they are a standard technique the ps would implement for the disabilities your dc has.  You can go to boardmaker and make them yourself.  You can go to Teachers Pay Teachers and download a set for under $5.  Visual schedules are where it's at.  You can improve communication, collaboration, and choice.  You can make it easier to communicate her need for breaks.  You can model flexibility with a First/Then chart for when things pop up.  I guarantee you a LOT of the challenges you're having could be addressed with a visual schedule system.

Her OT just made us a "get ready" visual schedule. She's been trying that for the last week.

 

Next, independent work.  On TPT, Christine Reeve has her Autism Classroom News store with what she calls a "Structured Work System."  This is what you need.  No more of this plunking them somewhere and being frustrated that they walked away or didn't attend.  I think I've shared on Flickr pictures of my ds' independent work station, his visual schedules and his notebook for the pieces, etc.  Here, try this for TPT for the work stations  Structured Work System Starter Kit for Autism--Elementary Version

 

And here is the visual schedule link  

Autism Pre-K - Elementary Classroom Visual Bundle Solid Colors (special ed)

 

Everything Christine Reeve does is fabulous.  I was just realizing we could rebalance our work a new way this semester.  I think we constantly have to improve, change, and grow as teachers.  It takes some work to set this up, yes.  You'll spend a couple hours printing, laminating, cutting, putting on velcro dots.  But once it's DONE, wow, wow, wow!!!!  You cannot BELIEVE how lovely it is to have kids really clear on what the plan is, to know their steps, to be able to reference and work independently.  Work systems like this have GOALS and REWARDS built in!!  Christine even has token boards you can download for free so you could set up a token/reward system for whatever you're trying to incentivize.  Behavioralism uses token/reward systems like this.  It helps them get over hurdles of things that are hard, and it's not a permanent thing but a learning tool.

Is there instructions for using this system on the download for the starter kit? I couldn't find details on her site. Is this system similar to the workbox system? We have done that on and off since K with varying results at different times. But maybe even if similar it needs to be implemented differently? Do you have pics or a link to the pics of your DS's station that you'd be willing to share?

 

Like the others, I would suggest you work them together.  Me, I'd put one kid on the right, the other on the left.  You know another thing you could do is give sensory input to this dc to calm her.  We've talked about doing some sensory or mindfulness before you even start.  That would be good.  But then you can put a wiggle cushion under her bum, one under her feet.  She could wear headphones with calming music that helps her feel more focused.  My dd does this a LOT.  She could use kinesio tape or a compression shirt.  You could use a weighted lap pad.  You HAVE OPTIONS.  

We have some of these things, we just need to learn to USE them more. I will try keeping them together.

 

It's tricky with those ages together, definitely.  My ds is 7 and he is just fine being in with preschoolers for things.  He has NO CLUE that he's different, and a lot of his skills will be similar (or lower) than the other kids in the class.  Now granted he's also listening to college lectures and building K'nex roller coasters with me, meaning he doesn't fit in, lol.  I'm just saying it's ok to blend ages like that.  If they both need the same things just done at different levels, that works especially well.  Like both work on handwriting (with a timer, using the visual schedules) and then they wait when they finish and have that time to fidget with desirable fidget toys while the other finishes.  Then they both move on to the next visual schedule card together.  That could really work!  I would create some structure like that, and I would use the schedules for BOTH kids.  Even that can be a really good learning experience for her, because then she's having to collaborate and give/take with more than one person!  Rather than viewing these things as the obstacles, they literally become THE LESSONS.  

Yes, she can join in happily with a preschool group and not realize that she shouldn't be fitting right in, but she does. Her maturity level is definitely lower than that of her peers. I'm definitely going to give working with them together a try.

 

The social skills she learns through this are MORE IMPORTANT than the academics, guaranteed.  Social skills are THE determiner of employability, not academics.  It's why stories like Jenn's work out so well, because in reality by working so much with him she developed in him flexibility, the ability to collaborate, to express how he feels, etc., all of which feeds into his current success.  

 

Thank you for all your words of advice. I am trying to take it all in and will do my best to implement as much as I can :)

[PeterPan]

Just a note that visual schedules don't have to be pictoral to work--it varies by child. Some are fine with words. I wish we had known about ready made materials when my son was younger--they would have been a lifesaver. I couldn't really take the time to figure them out and make them myself. We had no diagnosis at the time, so no one would have been able to tell us about stuff available.

 

To tell you how profoundly helpful it is for my son to know what's coming up, let me just mention that starting at around six months old, he would NOT SIT in a carseat until I told him where we were going. He was a little muscleman, and he would arch his back, etc. until he was about to topple on the floor of the car, unless I'd say, "We're going to the grocery store" or "We're going to church." If I told him where we were going, he'd plop his little behind in there and sit perfectly still while I buckled him in.

 

These kids need information to maintain some sense of self control. That is what visual schedules do.

The visual schedules kit I linked includes both picture schedule cards *and* words, to allow for that transition from pictures to words to written lists or a planner, all in one kit.  All for a very low price.  :)

[PeterPan]

Sometimes I have the urge to crack down hard and then it backfires or I think we need to lighten up and then it gets worse. I feel like I always choose the wrong way to go.

 

Would I go through our pediatrician or our OT to get connected to a BCBA?

 

 

 

We can use whatever curriculum we want, but they track the progress through it and set goals for the next monthly meeting. So for example at our last meeting she was on lesson 58 in math. We do school 4 days a week, and we meet once a month. So they set a goal of 16 lessons by next meeting and they'll ask what lesson we are on. We do the same for the LA resources we use. They don't track anything else. I can talk to her ES and find out what it will mean if we drop or change something or if we make less progress than expected. I really have no idea.

I'm going to try to keep her lessons shorter. I never intend for them to go long, but I think they often do just from distractions and letting her drag it out but still trying to get through the same amount of material.

Ironically enough, the fact that your dc cannot meet goals IS your indicator that her behavioral challenges are severe enough that it is affecting her ability to access her education.  This is THE THING they look for to determine the need for an IEP.  If that's what is happening, don't be ashamed and cover it over!!!  It's actually just the opposite.  Document it, let it be obvious, documenting both behaviors and they goals and why things didn't happen, then use that to go request an IEP and services.  If your charter is funded by the state and required to provide services, then you can get that IEP and ask for them.  I don't know much about how charter schools handle that.  I'm just saying it's not YOU and don't hide it.  It's actually a really important criteria for qualifying.  :)

[PeterPan]

The thing is, she actually doesn't just sit in her seat out of habit and without complaint. When we get in the car, she just stands there. I have to tell her every. single. time. to take off her coat and sit down. Then I have to tell her to buckle. Often she gets upset at these commands. No, she doesn't ask to sit in the drivers seat or truly ask to be up and about, but neither does she simply comply with getting buckled in her seat.

 

I'm all for building good habits, but she doesn't exactly pick them up so easily. Right now with her OT our goal is "get dressed, brush teeth, brush hair" when told "get ready". She has a visual picture checklist taped to her dresser to remind her of each step. (And she's not yet brushing her own hair. That is goal number 2.) These things have been done since she was born, but she still needs *constant* reminders of what all needs done.

 

I've been over there a couple of times, but maybe I need to become more familiar with it. ;)

 

We have wondered about OCD, but the psychologist at least didn't bring it up. We do think we need some more evaluations, but that's a whole 'nother thread! (Which I actually did have a while back)

And WHY is ASD not getting diagnosed with issues like that?  That's some pretty wicked initiation, sequencing, and independence issues.  You want a full ASD eval at a clinic.  They did the Vineland Adaptive Living scale on us, and that was really informative.  It's organized with every skill by age, and you end up going WOW, why is my kid not doing that yet??

 

You're doing the right thing with the visual schedules.  I think you need to get the diagnosis so you can get your insurance to pay for the BCBA.  Then, when you have that, you can have fuller plans with rewards.  Until then, I think you need to remember that probably most of what you're describing is not volitional or intended to aggravate you.  For me, and this is just me, some things don't click that I'm seeing in my ds until I see *more severe* ASD.  Then when I see it in that dc, then I realize my ds was doing it too, maybe just in a lighter or slightly different way.  For instance, we went to the Christmas program at the autism charter, where all the kids were doing their music (singing, playing piano, etc.).  Some of the most severe children could play, absolutely, but literally for every. single. keystroke. one therapist had to touch the note on the page and the 2nd therapist had to lightly touch the dc's arm to tell their brain yes, let's make this move.  But they could lift their arm and play the key on the keyboard with that much support!  It was a beautiful thing to watch.

 

So then you go, ok, maybe my dc isn't SO SEVERE that I have to give THAT much support just for them to play a note on the keyboard.  But maybe I'm seeing it other ways, where they're not initiating the movement and I'm getting frustrated.  And then, when you realize what you're seeing, you go ok how could I prompt this?  How could I start with maybe a non-verbal reminder, then go to a verbal prompt, then maybe a little more support, then actually taking them by the hand (like I had to do with my ds!) to get them going on it.  And NONE of that was ever about being bad or not wanting to comply.  It was just that the dc couldn't initiate and make it happen.  And we can think of it in terms of support and scaffolding, and then in terms of fading that support.  Like, ok, if he has done xyz 10 times with complete support (me holding his hand and walking him to each step, me going through the steps of the visual schedule with him, etc.), then maybe we could fade it a little bit to a lighter level of support?  Kwim?  Just play around with it.

[PeterPan]

We feel like right now at least she wouldn't do so well in a ps environment. Maybe I'm not realistic in what I see, but I think she would fall through the cracks. When she's in other environments like that, she's oddly much calmer than at home, but no more attentive or able to stay on track. She doesn't pay attention when directions are given to her as part of a group. Like at tumbling, when the coach says to do something, all the other kids comply, DD takes a minute until she sees the other kids doing whatever and then she does it. Or the coach goes to her directly and tells her what to do. It's like she isn't aware that she's been told to do something. I can't imagine how she'd learn a thing during a lesson in a ps classroom.

I'm trying to let go of any idea of independence. I never expected too much, just a little here and there so I can spend time with 3yo. But I realize that's just spinning my wheels and not actually saving us any time.

 

The part she loves about the charter is the "epic day". She is there all day once a week and they do drama, music, pe, "ooey gooey science", and arts and crafts type stuff. She has friends there and gets to eat lunch with them. And just as important, it gives me a day off from her. That's actually why we started it last year. I truly needed the one day a week off. And that's 3yo's day, she gets mommy all to herself. I'll take the stress of reporting to her ES for that. I just need to clarify with them what I can do differently and try not to worry about their expectations.

On the one hand, the wheels of the ps system work SLOWLY, and it's true the system can be downright inaccurate and a pain in the butt.  On the other hand, frankly, I think we use homeschooling to accommodate a lot of SN, not getting the right words, and not realizing all the TOOLS the ps would bring to this.  I read the things you're describing, and I see goals they would put into the IEP and supports they would put in place.  And when we don't ask for that kind of help, then we miss out on what we can *learn* about how to support our kids, kwim?  Right words for the challenges, better tools to work with them.  That's what we want.

[PeterPan]

Yes, the genes came from somewhere.  You aren't the only one in that position, feeling like you have your own challenges to deal with.  That's a really good point on the meds.  I think *security* is a good reason to tip that over.  If a dc is unable to stay safe due to severe ADHD, that, to me, is a factor that pushes it over.  I do think there are issues with the dose, with people being on too much and needing less or needing a different med.  I've seen some zombie kids, so I know it happens.  I think most parents would try to work with their ped until they got a mix that worked.  

 

Here's the flickr album.  https://flic.kr/s/aHskmyxzcN

 

Workboxes are a simplified version of a SN work system, and they are missing some key components like REWARDS.  Also, people tend to use workboxes for their whole day.  An independent work system is very specifically for a brief amount of time where you want INDEPENDENT work.  The *reason* for it is actually behavioral.  You're working on establishing teacher control, so you give them doable tasks, tasks they can do independently, within a reward structure, to get this positive dynamic of I can obey my teacher, I can sit down and comply, I can work independently.  So teacher control, environmental control, these are things you'll read about.  But the independent work system is not for your whole day, only that brief independent work time.  My ds has 5 bins (vertical magazine racks from the dollar section of Target) and the tabs on them to pull off to put on the strip and earn his goal/reward.  It varies what he chooses.  I love that I didn't have to figure out anything, that it was all there for me!  So I'll put puzzles, dot to dots, craft kids (shrinky dinks to color, that kind of thing), lacing cards, anything simple that, for him, is COMPLETELY independent, not on instructional level.  

 

The visual schedules kit is what you use to organize and collaboratively plan your day.  You can take turns, I choose a card, you choose!  You could work together with the sibling, so they take turns.  Turn taking is good social!  

Edited January 10, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[heartlikealion]

It's quite similar at times here with my 7yr old. Everything seems to take so long. We're trying to establish a better school day routine. I printed out a check off list last week and told him we need to buckle down and do the list daily (we actually did not do everything on the list, but got most done). I got these little push pin magnets and put the list on a magnetic board so it's the same thing and we just move the magnets in each check box. I really hope this helps us get more accomplished. I don't know if something visual like that would help? Or if you already do something like that.

 

Can you get your dh to help at all? Usually I'm doing the school stuff, but sometimes we'll do school stuff after dh is home and we can each focus on one child. Last week dh worked with ds on the school while I focused on the baby. 

 

I am trying to declutter and organize the house which I hope will make our days less stressful by making tidying up easier in the future. Join us on the declutter thread on the chat board if you haven't already.

 

I don't have much advice, but mostly commenting to say you are not alone! Most days are a battle here. Just getting ds to get out of bed, feed the cat, eat breakfast is often a struggle.

[73349]

Oh, yes, we use a visual schedule for school as well. I bought a pocket chart like this from a schol supply store, and then printed some free cards (which have both words and pictures) from First Grade Parade, and then added some of my own just by making text boxes in Word.

 

In the top two rows, I put the date in English and Spanish. I don't include times, but you could if you have a certain time you usually have to do something.

 

 

I've gotten so used to it that I don't think of it as a strategy any more. :)

[Seeking Squirrels]

Ironically enough, the fact that your dc cannot meet goals IS your indicator that her behavioral challenges are severe enough that it is affecting her ability to access her education.  This is THE THING they look for to determine the need for an IEP.  If that's what is happening, don't be ashamed and cover it over!!!  It's actually just the opposite.  Document it, let it be obvious, documenting both behaviors and they goals and why things didn't happen, then use that to go request an IEP and services.  If your charter is funded by the state and required to provide services, then you can get that IEP and ask for them.  I don't know much about how charter schools handle that.  I'm just saying it's not YOU and don't hide it.  It's actually a really important criteria for qualifying.   :)

 

I was tempted to just do our own thing and keep reporting back to the ES with lesson numbers according to where we should be, regardless of what we'd done. I hadn't considered it from that angle. I will be upfront with her.

And WHY is ASD not getting diagnosed with issues like that?  That's some pretty wicked initiation, sequencing, and independence issues.  You want a full ASD eval at a clinic.  They did the Vineland Adaptive Living scale on us, and that was really informative.  It's organized with every skill by age, and you end up going WOW, why is my kid not doing that yet??

 

You're doing the right thing with the visual schedules.  I think you need to get the diagnosis so you can get your insurance to pay for the BCBA.  Then, when you have that, you can have fuller plans with rewards.  Until then, I think you need to remember that probably most of what you're describing is not volitional or intended to aggravate you.  For me, and this is just me, some things don't click that I'm seeing in my ds until I see *more severe* ASD.  Then when I see it in that dc, then I realize my ds was doing it too, maybe just in a lighter or slightly different way.  For instance, we went to the Christmas program at the autism charter, where all the kids were doing their music (singing, playing piano, etc.).  Some of the most severe children could play, absolutely, but literally for every. single. keystroke. one therapist had to touch the note on the page and the 2nd therapist had to lightly touch the dc's arm to tell their brain yes, let's make this move.  But they could lift their arm and play the key on the keyboard with that much support!  It was a beautiful thing to watch.

 

So then you go, ok, maybe my dc isn't SO SEVERE that I have to give THAT much support just for them to play a note on the keyboard.  But maybe I'm seeing it other ways, where they're not initiating the movement and I'm getting frustrated.  And then, when you realize what you're seeing, you go ok how could I prompt this?  How could I start with maybe a non-verbal reminder, then go to a verbal prompt, then maybe a little more support, then actually taking them by the hand (like I had to do with my ds!) to get them going on it.  And NONE of that was ever about being bad or not wanting to comply.  It was just that the dc couldn't initiate and make it happen.  And we can think of it in terms of support and scaffolding, and then in terms of fading that support.  Like, ok, if he has done xyz 10 times with complete support (me holding his hand and walking him to each step, me going through the steps of the visual schedule with him, etc.), then maybe we could fade it a little bit to a lighter level of support?  Kwim?  Just play around with it.

Because she "communicates well" and "initiates". I actually had a thread about this very thing a couple of months ago. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/567367-are-any-asd-markers-absolute-across-the-board/ 

I need to go back through that whole thread and remind myself of some of it. That was at the beginning of the holidays and I know I probably didn't take away half what I needed to from it. Sometimes I feel like if I could just get myself organized and get on top of what people tell me to do, this would be all under control and fine. :/

Yes, the genes came from somewhere.  You aren't the only one in that position, feeling like you have your own challenges to deal with.  That's a really good point on the meds.  I think *security* is a good reason to tip that over.  If a dc is unable to stay safe due to severe ADHD, that, to me, is a factor that pushes it over.  I do think there are issues with the dose, with people being on too much and needing less or needing a different med.  I've seen some zombie kids, so I know it happens.  I think most parents would try to work with their ped until they got a mix that worked.  

 

Here's the flickr album.  https://flic.kr/s/aHskmyxzcN

 

Workbooks are a simplified version of a SN work system, and they are missing some key components like REWARDS.  Also, people tend to use workboxes for their whole day.  An independent work system is very specifically for a brief amount of time where you want INDEPENDENT work.  The *reason* for it is actually behavioral.  You're working on establishing teacher control, so you give them doable tasks, tasks they can do independently, within a reward structure, to get this positive dynamic of I can obey my teacher, I can sit down and comply, I can work independently.  So teacher control, environmental control, these are things you'll read about.  But the independent work system is not for your whole day, only that brief independent work time.  My ds has 5 bins (vertical magazine racks from the dollar section of Target) and the tabs on them to pull off to put on the strip and earn his goal/reward.  It varies what he chooses.  I love that I didn't have to figure out anything, that it was all there for me!  So I'll put puzzles, dot to dots, craft kids (shrinky dinks to color, that kind of thing), lacing cards, anything simple that, for him, is COMPLETELY independent, not on instructional level.  

 

The visual schedules kit is what you use to organize and collaboratively plan your day.  You can take turns, I choose a card, you choose!  You could work together with the sibling, so they take turns.  Turn taking is good social!  

We're still discussing the possibility of meds and might give it a go.

 

That makes a lot more sense. I was thinking it would be quite like the workboxes we've used before that never worked as well as anticipated. I guess because they're meant to give the child more independence in their day, but since I had to sit there directing each next move anyway, it was pointless. I think I like the look of this system to build that independence separately from our regular work.

 

Does it matter how long each activity at the station takes? Should they be short things that can be done in a few minutes each, or longer to stretch her attention?

[PeterPan]

Oh, yes, we use a visual schedule for school as well. I bought a pocket chart like this from a schol supply store, and then printed some free cards (which have both words and pictures) from First Grade Parade, and then added some of my own just by making text boxes in Word.

 

In the top two rows, I put the date in English and Spanish. I don't include times, but you could if you have a certain time you usually have to do something.

 

 

I've gotten so used to it that I don't think of it as a strategy any more. :)

Ooo, thank you for sharing this!  Last school year I toured our local autism charter school and got to see how they organize.  Believe it or not, they use MULTIPLE things.  They have a time schedule, like you're showing.  And then they also had schedules in notebooks and first/then cards available.  The *reason* you can use multiple things is that each one has a niche and what it's doing.  (I'm explaining for the OP.)  For instance, a first/then chart allows you to problem solve and communicate more clearly.  Say she comes up and she's like I WANT TO WATCH PAW PATROL!!  Or she's already gone to watch Paw Patrol, and you're no, hello, please come back and let's work together.  Or they get in their mind something like today I'm baking a cake!  Well then you can use the first/then chart to communicate through that and be flexible.  Like Ok I *know* our big time schedule says we're going to do that, that our routine is to do math at 9 or whatever, but for today let's be flexible and use the first/then chart and cut a deal.  First short math, then cake!  We can communicate that way, and no one is confused.

 

So, similarly, the visual schedule kit I linked to you has the ability to be flexible for choice, for showing breaks, for requesting breaks, for showing appts or things you leave the house for, etc.  It allows for CHOICE, which can be really helpful for our kids.  So, for instance, if ds has swim class, then I'l pull the card for that.  He looks through his notebook of options and can indicate he wants to do xyz (science is a common request for him!) and we can do that.  And we can see yes we're alternating sensory breaks with table work, kwim?  The visual schedule kit allows for that.  And it's considered good to have the sensory experience of RIPPING the tab off the velcro.  Remember, one of our issues is COMPLIANCE.  We're not merely trying to get some work done!  We're trying to get into their heads that this is what we do, that we work together, it's the law, this is the gig, we're really going to do something.  We can have choices, but we HAVE to work together, you can't just go watch Paw Patrol all day.  So we're giving something they can touch, get sensory input with, something they can change, something they can learn to run independently (initially with prompts, later by themselves).  It's not really just informational about the overall flow for the day, kwim?  

 

I'm saying all that, but I LIKE that overall schedule.  I'm crazy, crazy for pocket charts, love, love them.  You really can't go wrong with them.  Put it up on your wall and have that overall plan, if that increases communication and lowers anxiety, sure!  But I think you can have layers and know why you're using each tool and why they exist.  For us, we need MULTIPLE tools, not just one.  They increase communication, collaboration, and buy-in.