Acceptance to biology grad school from Christian undergrad?

[Bristayl]

If a student were to major in biology at a conservative Christian college that does teach evolution but at which there is some disagreement among its faculty over evolution, do you think that would negatively affect acceptance to graduate schools (for biology-related research, not medical schools)? Worded more frankly, would biology studies at such a school be considered inferior?

 

I'm not wanting to start an argument about evolution, but was wondering if a Christian student who wants to major in biology would be better served attending a secular university if the goal is grad school.

[laughing lioness]

What are the admissions requirements at the grad school? Is it a competitive program? If it's based on test scores and essays, it would be worth a talk to an Admissions Counselor and get their take on the students chances regarding essays. I would think that if the test scores, research and essays are in good order a grad school would be happy to consider a good candidate if they are coming from an accredited school. 

[JanetC]

My instincts would be to say, "Yes, he/she should choose a secular school", but that is without knowing the undergrad school you are considering. I would be asking the school you are considering for undergrad:

 

1. What sort of research are the faculty doing? Where are they publishing/presenting their work? These are the people who will be writing your child's letters of recommendation for grad school and using their connections to introduce him/her to other labs. What do their Google scholar profiles say about them?

2. Do their undergraduate students have research opportunities? Doing what?

3. Do their undergraduate students get NSF funding such as http://www.nsf.gov/funding/pgm_summ.jsp?pims_id=5517

4. How many students do they send to grad school each year? Which specific schools?

 

Grad school in science is usually NOT about grades and personal essays. It's about grades, research skills, and interests that match with the department faculty. The US over-produces biologists: Expect grad school admissions to be highly competitive. Think about how the student would be perceived compared to students with the same test scores and grades but from a secular school.

 

Just as homeschooling can be a hurdle with some colleges (who don't have to take a chance on someone with a non-mainstream education), having a degree in biology from a Christian college that teaches evolution as a controversy will be a hurdle to overcome with (at least some, quite possibly many) grad schools in biology.

 

[Bristayl]

What are the admissions requirements at the grad school? Is it a competitive program? 

 

This is hypothetical at this point, so there isn't a specific grad school in mind yet.

[Bristayl]

Just as homeschooling can be a hurdle with some colleges (who don't have to take a chance on someone with a non-mainstream education), having a degree in biology from a Christian college that teaches evolution as a controversy will be a hurdle to overcome with (at least some, quite possibly many) grad schools in biology.

 

Thanks for the suggested questions; I hadn't thought of looking at NSF funding.

 

I don't know if they teach evolution "as a controversy" per se, but I am musing over whether college choices might best be limited to secular schools to eliminate the potential hurdle.

[justasque]

If a student were to major in biology at a conservative Christian college that does teach evolution but at which there is some disagreement among its faculty over evolution, do you think that would negatively affect acceptance to graduate schools (for biology-related research, not medical schools)? Worded more frankly, would biology studies at such a school be considered inferior?

 

I'm not wanting to start an argument about evolution, but was wondering if a Christian student who wants to major in biology would be better served attending a secular university if the goal is grad school.

 

Grad school aside, I think, frankly, it would negatively affect the student's undergraduate education in and of itself.  However, I don't think the choice is evolution=controversial vs. secular school.  Catholic universities, for example, would be worth considering for a student who wants a faith-based Christian education but prefers a more mainstream (for lack of a better word) scientific curriculum.

[G5052]

My instincts would be to say, "Yes, he/she should choose a secular school", but that is without knowing the undergrad school you are considering. I would be asking the school you are considering for undergrad:

 

1. What sort of research are the faculty doing? Where are they publishing/presenting their work? These are the people who will be writing your child's letters of recommendation for grad school and using their connections to introduce him/her to other labs. What do their Google scholar profiles say about them?

2. Do their undergraduate students have research opportunities? Doing what?

3. Do their undergraduate students get NSF funding such as http://www.nsf.gov/funding/pgm_summ.jsp?pims_id=5517

4. How many students do they send to grad school each year? Which specific schools?

 

Grad school in science is usually NOT about grades and personal essays. It's about grades, research skills, and interests that match with the department faculty. The US over-produces biologists: Expect grad school admissions to be highly competitive. Think about how the student would be perceived compared to students with the same test scores and grades but from a secular school.

 

Just as homeschooling can be a hurdle with some colleges (who don't have to take a chance on someone with a non-mainstream education), having a degree in biology from a Christian college that teaches evolution as a controversy will be a hurdle to overcome with (at least some, quite possibly many) grad schools in biology.

 

I agree. I've sat on hiring and selection committees reviewing folks with STEM degrees, and those with degrees from conservative Protestant schools are frankly looked down upon. It isn't necessarily right, but I saw it over and over. If you want to get selected for a few slots from hundreds of applicants, you don't want anything that causes doubt. Some people question whether certain schools can possibly be taken seriously because of the theological stands they take.

 

Of course there are exceptions, but why take a chance?

[Bristayl]

 Catholic universities, for example, would be worth considering for a student who wants a faith-based Christian education but prefers a more mainstream (for lack of a better word) scientific curriculum.

 

That might be a possibility.

[Bristayl]

I've sat on hiring and selection committees reviewing folks with STEM degrees, and those with degrees from conservative Protestant schools are frankly looked down upon. It isn't necessarily right, but I saw it over and over. 

 

Thank you for sharing that you've actually experienced this. That's what I was wondering about.

[GoodGrief]

If you have a specific school in mind, you might do some research, or just ask outright, for some examples of what their graduates are doing.

 

 

[creekland]

No matter what type of school you are looking at (secular or Christian), if interested in grad school afterward, ask to see where recent grads in that major have gone.  Schools with a decent record are happy to share.  Those that are elusive can be problematic and should give a prospective student pause.

 

That said, my middle son was my research loving guy.  He spent a bit of time looking at research profs were doing at schools he liked (or to see if he liked schools).  He found medium to larger schools had FAR more possibilities than smaller schools.  He also found it can be important to find a school that purposely includes undergrads in research with these medium/larger schools.  He loves where he ended up.  Some of his peers who chose other schools have had far fewer opportunities.  Search carefully based upon what you are looking for.

 

Some LACs can be decent if they provide what one is looking for.  My youngest ended up in his school for that reason (original desired major - and terrific opportunities at his school).

 

For Bio, if interested in smaller schools in PA, Juniata is highly recommended.  It's in a rural location, so might not fit those desires.  Gettysburg has a good reputation too.  Overall though, check to see what is being researched to see if any school is a good fit.

[Bristayl]

If you have a specific school in mind, you might do some research, or just ask outright, for some examples of what their graduates are doing.

 

Yes, we will certainly do that when the time comes, even for secular colleges. I haven't had a lot of success finding that kind of information online--maybe I'm not searching in the right way.

[Bristayl]

 He found medium to larger schools had FAR more possibilities than smaller schools.  He also found it can be important to find a school that purposely includes undergrads in research with these medium/larger schools.  He loves where he ended up.  Some of his peers who chose other schools have had far fewer opportunities.  Search carefully based upon what you are looking for.

 

Yes, definitely are looking into undergrad research opportunities.

[Bristayl]

A College Confidential post led me to a review on Inside Higher Ed of a new book about PhD admissions. The quote below is relevant to my question (especially since the student mentioned was homeschooled!) The whole review can be found here: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/01/06/new-book-reveals-how-elite-phd-admissions-committees-review-candidates

 

Bias Against a Christian College Student?

In most cases Posselt observed, the committee members used banter and “friendly debate†when they disagreed with one another. They didn't attack one another or get too pointed in criticizing colleagues. She describes one discussion she observed -- in which committee members kept to this approach -- that left her wondering about issues of fairness.

The applicant, to a linguistics Ph.D. program, was a student at a small religious college unknown to some committee members but whose values were questioned by others.

“Right-wing religious fundamentalists,†one committee member said of the college, while another said, to much laughter, that the college was “supported by the Koch brothers.â€

The committee then spent more time discussing details of the applicant's GRE scores and background -- high GRE scores, homeschooled -- than it did with some other candidates. The chair of the committee said, “I would like to beat that college out of her,†and, to laughter from committee members asked, “You don't think she's a nutcase?â€

Other committee members defended her, but didn't challenge the assumptions made by skeptics. One noted that the college had a good reputation in the humanities. And another said that her personal statement indicated intellectual independence from her college and good critical thinking.

At the end of this discussion, the committee moved the applicant ahead to the next round but rejected her there.

[G5052]

A College Confidential post led me to a review on Inside Higher Ed of a new book about PhD admissions. The quote below is relevant to my question (especially since the student mentioned was homeschooled!) The whole review can be found here: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/01/06/new-book-reveals-how-elite-phd-admissions-committees-review-candidates

 

Bias Against a Christian College Student?

In most cases Posselt observed, the committee members used banter and “friendly debate†when they disagreed with one another. They didn't attack one another or get too pointed in criticizing colleagues. She describes one discussion she observed -- in which committee members kept to this approach -- that left her wondering about issues of fairness.

The applicant, to a linguistics Ph.D. program, was a student at a small religious college unknown to some committee members but whose values were questioned by others.

“Right-wing religious fundamentalists,†one committee member said of the college, while another said, to much laughter, that the college was “supported by the Koch brothers.â€

The committee then spent more time discussing details of the applicant's GRE scores and background -- high GRE scores, homeschooled -- than it did with some other candidates. The chair of the committee said, “I would like to beat that college out of her,†and, to laughter from committee members asked, “You don't think she's a nutcase?â€

Other committee members defended her, but didn't challenge the assumptions made by skeptics. One noted that the college had a good reputation in the humanities. And another said that her personal statement indicated intellectual independence from her college and good critical thinking.

At the end of this discussion, the committee moved the applicant ahead to the next round but rejected her there.

 

Exactly. The banter I often heard was sometimes ugly when we got resumes like that. Of course I'd question their assumptions, but I was always in the minority as well as being the junior member of these committees.

[Bristayl]

I thought it was interesting that the sticking point seemed to be the college more so than her being homeschooled.

[GoodGrief]

In the end, there probably are some biases to overcome with that sort of background (as there is with homeschooling.)

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I thought it was interesting that the sticking point seemed to be the college more so than her being homeschooled.

 

FWIW-it is my understanding that by the time you are applying to graduate programs it is your undergraduate record that is being closely scrutinized more than your high school record.  Homeschooling may have been deemed more relevant in a situation that played into stereotypes.  

[Reefgazer]

I agree with you on this. Behind the scenes, non-recorded and unofficial banter would go this this in the biology department of the colleges I have been associated with. It's not fair, but this is reality. I think a strong applicant who can address this head on in an interview and with humor would be able to negate this effect, though. An applicant would be able to overcome these stereotypes I of they were so inclined. Overall, it might just be easier to opt for the less religious college than deal with it, though.

 

Exactly. The banter I often heard was sometimes ugly when we got resumes like that. Of course I'd question their assumptions, but I was always in the minority as well as being the junior member of these committees.

Edited January 7, 2016 by reefgazer

[Hoggirl]

I'm just curious - are we talking about an undergraduate institution that is NOT regionally accredited (such as Bob Jones) or one that IS regionally accredited but more conservative? Like maybe Baylor or Wheaton?

Edited January 7, 2016 by Hoggirl

[Bristayl]

I'm just curious - are we talking about an undergraduate institution that is NOT regionally accredited (such as Bob Jones) or one that IS regionally accredited but more conservative? Like maybe Baylor or Wheaton?

 

If you're talking about the book review, I can't tell from the excerpt and I expect the book does not identify the school. 

 

If you're talking about my original question, in our own family we would not consider a college that was not regionally accredited.

[katilac]

I agree with you on this. Behind the scenes, non-recorded and unofficial banter would go this this in the biology department of the colleges I have been associated with. It's not fair, but this is reality. I think a strong applicant who can address this head on in an interview and with humor would be able to negate this effect, though. An applicant would be able to overcome these stereotypes I of they were so inclined. Overall, it might just be easier to opt for the less religious college than deal with it, though.

 

 

Yes, because you have to GET to the interview in order to overcome it at an interview. 

[Gwen in VA]

When my kids applied to grad school (one in engineering and one in operations research), they had NO interviews whatsoever. They hadn't even visited the school or talked with any of the profs at the school before they applied.

 

Once they were accepted, the schools provided an expenses-paid weekend for accepted students to visit the school, but my kids applied to the schools sight unseen. (We are talking the #2 and #3 ranked programs in the country in a particular field, so I assume this non-interview approach is typical of top engineering programs.....)

 

if my kids' experiences were at all normal, relying on an interview is NOT a great way to go!

[creekland]

I think the main issue is that the OP is talking about Bio and Bio will notoriously want evolution as a given since it's a tenant of the subject.  There really isn't much give and take with many who make decisions on that issue.

 

Outside of Bio, one is likely to see more give on it - if it even matters at all.

 

I used to believe that certain Christian College grads would have difficulty getting into med school due to the science teaching provided at those schools AND the lack of accreditation with some (not all) of them.  I've since seen IRL examples that this is not the case, nor are grads going to religious sponsored med schools.  

 

I've changed my thinking/advice to students based upon what I've seen, but, I'll admit I'd still be really hesitant with a Bio major wanting to go to grad school in Bio.

 

And overall, my base advice still stands and that's to send an e-mail to the college (admin or dept) and ask where recent grads in that major have been accepted.  This can give a decent insight into any school regardless of religious stance. 

[Bristayl]

I think the main issue is that the OP is talking about Bio and Bio will notoriously want evolution as a given since it's a tenant of the subject.  There really isn't much give and take with many who make decisions on that issue.

 

Outside of Bio, one is likely to see more give on it - if it even matters at all.

 

I used to believe that certain Christian College grads would have difficulty getting into med school due to the science teaching provided at those schools AND the lack of accreditation with some (not all) of them.  I've since seen IRL examples that this is not the case, nor are grads going to religious sponsored med schools.  

 

I've changed my thinking/advice to students based upon what I've seen, but, I'll admit I'd still be really hesitant with a Bio major wanting to go to grad school in Bio.

 

And overall, my base advice still stands and that's to send an e-mail to the college (admin or dept) and ask where recent grads in that major have been accepted.  This can give a decent insight into any school regardless of religious stance. 

 

Glad to hear that about med school! I was thinking the same thing you said, though, about this issue mattering more with Bio grad school specifically.

[creekland]

Glad to hear that about med school! I was thinking the same thing you said, though, about this issue mattering more with Bio grad school specifically.

 

It surprised me too with med school, because when I was researching it during my homeschooling days I saw plenty of emphasis on avoiding certain schools due to their evolutionary stance and more.  It didn't matter for us as we wanted something different anyway, but I kept that knowledge and even passed it on (as hearsay) myself to students at school when it fit the situation.

 

Fast forward to middle son doing a Christian Medical Missions trip with other pre-med students (from various schools including some that would make the super black list) last summer and I now have IRL examples (current examples) showing that "knowledge" sure isn't 100% true.  All who were trying to got accepted to med schools (in the states).  

 

But that's med school...

[Dmmetler]

DD's mentor teaches at a small Baptist college, and has definitely seen a bias against her students who want to go to graduate school, where she has kids with GRE scores and similar GPAs and research experience get turned down when kids from the nearby state U who were on the same project, with lower GRE scores get in (and where she's been the research advisor for both students). Medical school isn't an issue, as long as MCAT scores are high, and she has high placement rates for med school, but she tends to counsel kids who want to be biologists to transfer (or not to come there in the first place).

 

Because of this, she's advised against DD doing classes, even for online high school or non-science DE, with some of the more popular providers.

[creekland]

I think the difference is med schools like diversity.  They are training doctors for all areas and all situations, so want oodles of representatives of the population who have proven (MCAT, grades, ECs) themselves.  Religion and various beliefs (of this sort) really don't matter for their training.

 

Grad schools don't generally want diversity in thought within their subject - esp when the "thought" in question goes against the majority belief on something so major.

 

I would expect similar for any major and any belief outside their realm of what's accepted within the field.

[Reefgazer]

Or in her personal statement (which is similar), which is on the application, as she did progress to the next round based on this:

 

"And another said that her personal statement indicated intellectual independence from her college and good critical thinking."

Yes, because you have to GET to the interview in order to overcome it at an interview. 

 

Edited January 8, 2016 by reefgazer

[G5052]

I think the difference is med schools like diversity.  They are training doctors for all areas and all situations, so want oodles of representatives of the population who have proven (MCAT, grades, ECs) themselves.  Religion and various beliefs (of this sort) really don't matter for their training.

 

Grad schools don't generally want diversity in thought within their subject - esp when the "thought" in question goes against the majority belief on something so major.

 

I would expect similar for any major and any belief outside their realm of what's accepted within the field.

 

Exactly. When I was in a research job right out of college, the norm was male, 50-ish, PhD in physics or nuclear engineering from an eastern school, and/or military service in the nuclear field. Needless to say, I shook things up as a young female in math/computer science with degrees from lessor-known schools. Over and over I saw them mostly hire people like them, although they hired two buddies of mine from graduate school that I convinced them to interview that broke the mold too.

 

It was a little better when I was interviewing interns for technical federal government jobs in terms of diversity, but the other committee members still balked at certain schools because of the religious background. 

[Bristayl]

DD's mentor teaches at a small Baptist college, and has definitely seen a bias against her students who want to go to graduate school, where she has kids with GRE scores and similar GPAs and research experience get turned down when kids from the nearby state U who were on the same project, with lower GRE scores get in (and where she's been the research advisor for both students). Medical school isn't an issue, as long as MCAT scores are high, and she has high placement rates for med school, but she tends to counsel kids who want to be biologists to transfer (or not to come there in the first place).

 

Because of this, she's advised against DD doing classes, even for online high school or non-science DE, with some of the more popular providers.

 

Thanks for sharing her advice!

[FaithManor]

I would be tempted to look up the grad school requirements of several good biology programs and go with those.

 

For what it is worth, my cousin is one of the world's foremost researchers in Great Lakes Biology/Ecology/Conservation. She did not pay for her grad school at Michigan State University and hailed from a Christian University background. But it was not necessarily a conservative one. Taylor University in Indiana and if memory serves, at the time of her undergrad studies, they taught theistic evolution so very, very heavily covered evolutionary sciences. If you are considering any particular Christian universities, you should be able to get some statistics from the school about how many biology or biology related graduates they have had in recent years, how many go on to grad school, and where those graduates are attending for their master's and or ph.d's. If you are seeing strong, good name, highly respected programs then the college is probably doing a good job teaching biological sciences. If you are seeing low ranked programs, regional universities for grad school only, no graduates going on to grad school or a very low percentage (highly problematic because many biology related careers require grad school), etc., then those could be indications that they are lightweight in their instruction or they aren't attempting to attract biology passionate students. Schools that are very strong in undergraduate research opportunities would likely be a much better fit for your student if grad school is likely, then those that offer no research during the undergrad or have so few options available that most students are not able to participate.

[Bristayl]

Taylor University in Indiana

 

I'm a Taylor alum!

[FaithManor]

I'm a Taylor alum!

Congrats! They served my cousin very well. She is very fond of them and was pro "send your son there", but we can't afford it for one thing, and for another, he wants to specialize early and there are programs right here in Michigan that will allow him into freshwater research on the Great Lakes by he end of his freshman year. She had to admit he should go into one of those programs. I wish though that they were not so expensive and more generous with merit aid. I think it is a good school, but out of reach of many, many families.

[Bristayl]

Congrats! They served my cousin very well. She is very fond of them and was pro "send your son there", but we can't afford it for one thing, and for another, he wants to specialize early and there are programs right here in Michigan that will allow him into freshwater research on the Great Lakes by he end of his freshman year. She had to admit he should go into one of those programs. I wish though that they were not so expensive and more generous with merit aid. I think it is a good school, but out of reach of many, many families.

 

Very cool about the freshman year research. I am definitely hoping we will find similar opportunities for my dd.

 

I agree about Taylor's pricing. I was only able to go there because of a scholarship that they no longer offer. :(