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s/o What is the purpose of college?


Runningmom80
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(in your opinion.)

 

 

There was a recent thread about majoring in Creative Writing, or English, and many posters felt it wasn't smart because of the job prospects.  So, is college only a means to a career in your opinion, or something else?

 

 

ETA: Removed thread derailment.

Edited by someonestolemyname
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Personally, I don't only see it as a means to a career.  Yes, it can be that, but I really see it as helping a person be a well rounded individual, something to open and nourish the mind.  For me, the future earning power of a degree is secondary. 

Edited by Runningmom80
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To me, the purpose of college is to broaden your horizons. It is an opportunity to be exposed to people, ideas, and opportunities that you would otherwise not have access to enjoy.

Career readiness is also a goal. To study something that will enhance your resume and gain contacts to different businesses.

I do cringe on the inside when talking with people who view college as an opportunity for career goals only.

Edited by kewb
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While in theory I would love for it to be about rounding out your education and growing as a person, the cost of attending and the economy in general has made it a financial decision.  For me and my family, it is a tool to reach a career that can provide stability.  This is why I shifted majors from Art to Accounting.  I can educate myself on the things I love on my own time for much less money.  Getting that CPA will provide for my family.

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Many people don't have the financial resources to spend on an education that won't help them earn a living.  

 

One can self-educate on the side to become more well-rounded, but without a degree that is sought by employers, it can be hard to make a living.

 

I understand that.  We are middle class with not much disposable income.  I guess a more specific question would be, should one only get a degree that will help them make a specific (high) salary?

 

I think one could argue that any degree can help one gain employment.  However, certain degrees will put you in a certain earning category.  It seems there is a push to only get a degree in a top earning field. (I.e. stay far away from the Humanities.)

Edited by Runningmom80
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I think pursuing college only for a job is short sighted. Doing limits what one might study and miss developing skills in other areas which can lead to jobs one never considered and maybe never knew existed. It may also prevent someone from studying in the field for which they are best suited. I have degree in chemistry, but I think many liberal arts and arts degrees can be very valuable.

 

Example 1: one of my childhood friends went to art school. She has made a living for more than 25 years in art. She has done design. She painted furniture and murals for a while. Now she makes small films on commission. She does own a house. She supports herself and is happy.

 

Example 2: my friend's ds graduated 2 years ago with degrees in classics and Italian. He has a job in marketing with small firm. He's had his own apartment for a year and a half. He's doing well.

 

One can take the research and communication skills developed in college and apply them to many careers.

 

Studying nursing, computer science, accounting, ect is great if that's what you want. If it is not, such a choice can be stifling.

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I understand that.  We are middle class with not much disposable income.  I guess a more specific question would be, should one only get a degree that will help them make a specific (high) salary?

 

I think one could argue that any degree can help one gain employment.  However, certain degrees will put you in a certain earning category.  It seems there is a push to only get a degree in a top earning field. (I.e. stay far away from the Humanities.)

 

 

Honestly, I think there is a push to just get a degree that will make you a living, not even a top salary. 

 

I think it is wise for students to choose a career from a selection that has a good chance of allowing the student to self-support in the future, including the support of children if that's in the plans.

Edited by Serenade
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I think that the answer comes down to class.

 

If kids can go to college without taking on debt and with out financially harming the parents, then if they get an english or art degree, there is also a strong probability that the family also has the connections to get that kid a good job when he gets out of school. 

 

The older I get, the more I believe it isn't what you know, but who you know.

 

On the other hand, I know a mother of many living below the poverty level, taking out loans for a creative writing degree. The older children have to support the family and raise the younger children so the parent can fulfill her dream. I worry what in the world they will do when the student loans come due.

 

Also, I think that each person really has to look at what they want out of life. I have one kid who is always making money and thinking about making money. It is fine for him to be pursuing a business degree, but my kid who has no material desires at all will probably be very happy being a college professor. 

 

My job is to help my kids know themselves, and make decisions that will pay off for them in the long run. Those decisions will be different for each family and for each child.

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I think that the purpose of college is to become an educated person. There are countless benefits to becoming an educated person. One benefit is the ability to make a decent living. I do think that the desired career and the college major need to be somewhat related, if for no other reason than our high schools do a poor job of vocational education and have not prepared people for the world of work. I have a problem with people who want to choose a career solely based upon income potential. Personal and career satisfaction as well as talent must play a role in choosing job. Honestly, I think one of the reason kids are taking longer to complete college and are dropping out of college is that they are incompatible with their chosen major. If they have chosen their major solely on income potential or job potential, they may be setting themselves up for some unneeded job and life stresses in the early years. 

 

The other purposes of college, though, are the primary purposes. Allowing students the freedom to learn be exposed to a variety of ideas and being required to think through them in a logical manner should not be undervalued.  A lot of informal discussion goes on in college, but there are definite benefits to writing papers, such as the honing of critical thinking skills. 

 

I do agree that one can self-educate, but I think that having a group of people to talk with and being accountable for thinking things through in a disciplined manner broadens one's horizons in a way that informal learning cannot. 

 

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I do see it as primarily to help prepare for a career. I'd like to see it as a way to expand a person's education and interests, but it's too expensive for me to consider it such, frankly. There are much cheaper ways to expand your (general "your") interests and education, if there aren't any real career prospects attached, than college. 

 

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I understand that.  We are middle class with not much disposable income.  I guess a more specific question would be, should one only get a degree that will help them make a specific (high) salary?

 

I think one could argue that any degree can help one gain employment.  However, certain degrees will put you in a certain earning category.  It seems there is a push to only get a degree in a top earning field. (I.e. stay far away from the Humanities.)

 

I used to think of college as the broadening experience.  That's what it was for me; I have a BA in English.  Back in the '80s, that degree helped me a little in my career, but not much.  But the company I worked for valued higher education; for a lot of jobs it didn't matter too much what the degree was in.  Obviously not for all jobs. The engineers needed engineering degrees, for example.  :-)

 

Now I mostly view college as a hoop to jump through if a person wants employment with a "decent" salary.   ("Decent" being a relative term; by that I mean able to support oneself and a family.)  

 

Most people I know who talk about college for their kids talk only in terms of high-paying jobs.  I hear few people talking about satisfying work, only about high-salary work.  Isn't that what the current STEM push is all about?   That is not a slam against people in STEM fields.  Satisfying work can also be in-demand, high-paying work.  I am thinking more of people being pushed into fields they are not interested in because that's where the money is.

 

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I am gambling with my current degree choice - history with a specific focus on medieval history. The other option was Creative Writing, so a whirlwind of career options on my horizon!  :lol:

 

I am a bit relieved that ds wants to go into computer -something because I do think he'll find a decent job. So I'm a step out of these conversations sometimes because I'm not worried about ds. 

 

I live in an area where a lot of jobs just want a degree, nothing specialized. I'm also considering what I can self-educate with and what I need not just a degree, but networking and opportunities that do not come to those self-studying. 

 

I also believe there are jobs that our children will hold that have not yet been invented, entire industries even. To not think so would be to discount most of modern history. 

 

I also have tried to help ds understand what his chosen career might hold financially. I don't believe everyone needs  a house in the suburbs with 2.5 kids a mortgage and two SUV payments. If he wants that, great, if not, there are plenty of ways to live on less. Ds is fortunately not caught up in consumerism either, which I think helps. 

 

I'm 48 and in school to study the things that interested me when I was 17. I don't know what kind of job my future holds - very different outlook from someone who is actually pursuing these things at 17. 

 

I've had so many people ask if I'm going into nursing - is that the default for 40+ women in school?  :tongue_smilie: I know I'd make a lousy nurse, but I will make a darn good historian. We will stil need those in the future too. 

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It's not one or the other. "do it to Get a job" or "do it to be educated and well-rounded."

 

Ideally, everyone needs a job AND everyone needs to pursue becoming well-rounded, mature and intelligent. College is woven into the fabric of how the society WE all live in expect to be able to reach these goals.

 

It doesn't matter what I think it's for, in general. I know what I need it for (a job. I am well rounded and educated already :coolgleamA: ) but I know other people need/want it for the other reasons. It's all legitimate.

 

As parents, what I think most of us want, is for our kids to be smart. If a person was born to write, they aren't going to find joy in engineering, so it wouldn't be smart for them to go to engineering school. OTOH, if a person can be an engineer (in inclined that way, and thinks the way engineers think), and have no other strong ideas about what to do, engineering school is a great option.

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I will echo and ditto the people who have said goingto college "for a job" does not necessarily equate to going to college for an en vogue degree. A lot of non-tradtional students (olds like me) are looking at college as a means to a palatable job. Not necessarily a high-earning one.

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While in theory I would love for it to be about rounding out your education and growing as a person, the cost of attending and the economy in general has made it a financial decision.  For me and my family, it is a tool to reach a career that can provide stability.  This is why I shifted majors from Art to Accounting.  I can educate myself on the things I love on my own time for much less money.  Getting that CPA will provide for my family.

 

Same here. I wish that it could be otherwise, but the time and money isn't there, and mine don't want to graduate with significant loans that have to be paid off.

 

Locally even administrative assistants are expected to have a bachelor's degree.

 

One of mine loves expository writing, so we're looking at a technical writing major. An internship or two are going to be mandatory. It isn't that humanities degrees aren't useful, but you have to leverage them.

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Many people don't have the financial resources to spend on an education that won't help them earn a living.

 

One can self-educate on the side to become more well-rounded, but without a degree that is sought by employers, it can be hard to make a living.

I understand this thinking. But pursuing a degree in a field you have zero interest in is stifling. When you pursue something you have passion for you can apply that knowledge to many different types of careers.

 

I absolutely agree that one should graduate with career skills and connections but college after high school is like no other time in your life and I hope students can take advantage of it.

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I understand this thinking. But pursuing a degree in a field you have zero interest in is stifling.

Yes. And being pushed into a course of study one does not want to pursue can be disastrous. That is not hyperbole. A young adult that I love was pushed into engineering by one of his parents. As in, "I'm paying for school, I pick the degree." Young adult stuck it out for one year, then attempted suicide. Prolonged hospital stay, much therapy, and he switched to an arts major. Graduated well, now has a 'real' job in his field, making enough to support himself and eventually a family if he chooses that.

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I understand this thinking. But pursuing a degree in a field you have zero interest in is stifling. 

 

 

Unless one is very rigid, I would think that most people could find something of interest in a field that has a better chance of decent employment.  For example, if one liked art, but felt that the chances of a good paying job as an artist or art historian might be hard to find, then one could consider the teaching end of art, and combine that with a degree in education.  Full-time jobs for art teachers can be hard to find, too, but if one could fill several functions at a school, it might make the person more employable.

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I think you should take the money you would spend on tuition and start a small business!

 

Yes everyone! No one should go to college, that's a sucker's game. Just start a business!

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I think this question needs to be broken down.

 

The first thing is to differentiate between what are professional or skill oriented programs that just happen to be attached to universities, and the more core programs of universties.  THe purpose of professional and skill programs is more likely to be just - to impart job skills. (though not always - medical schools for example are also interested in the state of the art of medicine.)

 

The second way I would break it down is to say - the purpose for the individual, or the purpose of the institution.

 

For the individual, the purpose is variable, and that is ok.

 

For the institution, it's important to keep the core purpose clear, and I will absolutely say it is not career training.   The purpose of the university as an institution is primarily the pursuit of knowledge, and the center of that are the academics who are there persuing their work as part of a scholarly community.  Teaching happens in order to create new scholars and to diffuse the knowledge of the institution into society at large.  As a facet of that, it may also be useful as career training.

 

But as soon as people think career training is the purpose of the institution and treat it that way socially, it begins to fail at its task.

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For my parents, getting a degree in anything is an insurance against my hubby not being able to work and I would hopefully be able to get an admin job.

For me getting an engineering degree is easier than getting a humanities degree. Luckily the only "humanities" compulsory subjects I had to take as part of engineering coursework was Law, Econs, Finance, Sociology, Human Resource Management.

My backup degree choice was Law and Finance. I do regret not applying to take a minor in those as an undergrad.

 

Now I am thinking about going back to school and going back to work. I am looking at where my abilities and interest coincide. It is not money but boredom that is driving me to go back to school/work. What interest me at the moment is Intellectual Property Law. I like to be surrounded by people but prefer to interact with paperwork. So I rather be paid less to do paper pushing than take a frontline job.

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For me, I don't only see it as a means to a career.  Yes, it can be that, but I really see it as helping a person be a well rounded individual, something to open and nourish the mind.  For me, the future earning power of a degree is secondary. 

 

I think if you do much research/read/ talk/ live with/ to people in the academy you will find that this has changed. Higher Ed is no longer about helping a person become a well-rounded individual but about creating a political machine. The "Academy" is not what it used to be.

 

I would say that some of the great books Colleges and U's do adhere to the Liberal Arts Pedagogy, but also don't accept federal aid or loans - again, the $ issue, and while the graduates have a well-rounded ed, what do they "do" when they graduate?  

 

Furthermore, the ability to afford the Academy is a challenge . Young adults with crushing debt is not a winning combo.

 

Why go to college? 

Vocational Training. 

Edited by laughing lioness
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I don't think everyone should go to university, but I don't think its true to say that one can become educated in teh same way through things like personal reading.  There is typically a substantial difference between hat an individual will get out of a course of reading, and what someone with good teachers in an academic community will get out of it.  There is more to be learned than just the words on the page - more important is probably how to think about such things.  The kids of questions to ask, the relationships between ideas and texts, and so on. 

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I understand this thinking. But pursuing a degree in a field you have zero interest in is stifling. When you pursue something you have passion for you can apply that knowledge to many different types of careers.

 

I absolutely agree that one should graduate with career skills and connections but college after high school is like no other time in your life and I hope students can take advantage of it.

 

When I graduated from high school in 1974 I went to the local state u.  My father told me to major in business because that's where the money was.  I did as I was told, but the only classes I liked were the required Humanities classes.  It was in some sort of required math class for my major that I received the first "D" of my life, and I was thankful to get it.   I dropped out after 2 years, got a job, got married, got divorced, kept getting better jobs.  Somewhere in there I went back to school at night and got my degree in English at age 32.  It was a hard time, working all day, driving to class at night, working late writing papers.  I loved it.  

 

But, life would have been a lot easier if I had not attempted the business degree first; I wouldn't have dropped out of school for all those years.  Oh well.   I spent most of my working years after that doing training and writing policies/procedures for a high tech company.  

 

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Unless one is very rigid, I would think that most people could find something of interest in a field that has a better chance of decent employment. For example, if one liked art, but felt that the chances of a good paying job as an artist or art historian might be hard to find, then one could consider the teaching end of art, and combine that with a degree in education. Full-time jobs for art teachers can be hard to find, too, but if one could fill several functions at a school, it might make the person more employable.

Almost all teachers I know have went to college and received a degree in their interest. If they couldn't find work, they applied to teach and finished the education requirements during their first year.

 

The original thread was mine about my oldest. She had zero desire to teach but knows she could choose to do so at a time after college.

 

Our problem is that she feels, at the moment and only almost sixteen, that we don't have faith in her since we are pushing toward a back up plan. I do think she will mature in this area as we get closer. Honestly, I'm not overly concerned with her finding a job to support herself even with a creative writing degree. It may not be a job she wants but I do believe she would find something.

 

We've also told both dds that times are different and it's perfectly acceptable to move back home after college and work for a few years to save up or pay off loans.

Edited by Joker
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I think the purpose of college depends on your financial resources and goals. People who can comfortably afford college may tend to see it more as a personal development thing, while those for whom money is dear may be more likely to view it as a means to a well-paying job. I don't think there is one right answer.

 

Personally, I encourage my kids to major in something they can make a living at and incur as little debt as possible. Both my dh and I had our college debt paid off by the time we married in our mid-20s, and not having that debt made life significantly easier and more fun. For me, I wouldn't rack up huge amounts of debt to have what amounts to a a joyride to unemployment.

Edited by TaraTheLiberator
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Yes everyone! No one should go to college, that's a sucker's game. Just start a business!

 

LMAO

 

Well, I have no desire to start a business.  And I didn't have the money I spent on college to spend on a small business.  That was all borrowed money that I'm still paying back. No bank would have given me money for anything else.

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I do think the whole "use the money to start a business" thing, whiile not a good idea for all, is some food for thought.  For someone whose main goal is really a career that will keep them fed and that will be enjoyable, there are all kinds ofpaths besides a degree that could potentially provide that. 

 

It makes a lot of sense IMO to think outside the box if the main goal is a good job.

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I do think the whole "use the money to start a business" thing, whiile not a good idea for all, is some food for thought.  For someone whose main goal is really a career that will keep them fed and that will be enjoyable, there are all kinds ofpaths besides a degree that could potentially provide that. 

 

It makes a lot of sense IMO to think outside the box if the main goal is a good job.

 

Not aiming this at you, but the suggestion kinda pisses me off if I'm being honest.  As if we are all given a sum of money and we are free to decide what we will do with it to improve our future.  It really does not work that way for everyone.  It was very very difficult for me to manage to go to college at all due to finances, lack of transportation, and zero support.  The fact I graduated (and with honors) and improved my life substantially is something I am very proud of.  But no nobody handed me a sum of money and said do what you will with it.

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I'm not sure I can answer!

 

I don't really know. I guess the purpose depends on the person.

 

I think that if going to college is primarily for expanding one's horizons, it is an extremely expensive way to do so. I'm not sure if it's what 'I' would personally want to attend college for. But I don't really have any desire to attend college anyway, so...?

 

I think it's sad that employers are putting more and more weight into college degrees when they have nothing to do with the job. There is no such thing as an entry level position anywhere anymore without having a four year degree first.

While in some cases that's understandable, in others it's just ridiculous. Because college shouldn't be a requirement to be a contributing member of society.

I'm not against college if a person wants to attend, but neither am I pushing college on someone who doesn't. My kids are still young do I have no idea where their career paths may lead them. I want them to do whatever they enjoy doing, whatever they want to go, and I want them to be as best prepared for anything as they can possibly be. But college isn't a requirement.

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I think that the answer comes down to class.

 

If kids can go to college without taking on debt and with out financially harming the parents, then if they get an english or art degree, there is also a strong probability that the family also has the connections to get that kid a good job when he gets out of school. 

 

The older I get, the more I believe it isn't what you know, but who you know.

 

On the other hand, I know a mother of many living below the poverty level, taking out loans for a creative writing degree. The older children have to support the family and raise the younger children so the parent can fulfill her dream. I worry what in the world they will do when the student loans come due.

 

Also, I think that each person really has to look at what they want out of life. I have one kid who is always making money and thinking about making money. It is fine for him to be pursuing a business degree, but my kid who has no material desires at all will probably be very happy being a college professor. 

 

My job is to help my kids know themselves, and make decisions that will pay off for them in the long run. Those decisions will be different for each family and for each child.

 

Perhaps I'm getting more cynical as I get older, but I agree with this 100%.

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Not aiming this at you, but the suggestion kinda pisses me off if I'm being honest.  As if we are all given a sum of money and we are free to decide what we will do with it to improve our future.  It really does not work that way for everyone.  It was very very difficult for me to manage to go to college at all due to finances, lack of transportation, and zero support.  The fact I graduated (and with honors) and improved my life substantially is something I am very proud of.  But no nobody handed me a sum of money and said do what you will with it.

 

I can see that, but I think the thing to remember is that a lot of people don't naturally think outside the box.  If college is the generally accepted way they are supposed to get a good job, and all the other kids are doing it, that's what they will do.

 

There are a lot of kids in university without much idea of why, though their goal is a career.  That doesn't make a lot of sense - if that is the goal, it should include a pretty clear sense of how that will work, otherwise it is likely to be a waste of money and time.

 

There are people who have a sum of money saved up for college expenses, and it could potentially be used in other ways. 

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I can see that, but I think the thing to remember is that a lot of people don't naturally think outside the box.  If college is the generally accepted way they are supposed to get a good job, and all the other kids are doing it, that's what they will do.

 

There are a lot of kids in university without much idea of why, though their goal is a career.  That doesn't make a lot of sense - if that is the goal, it should include a pretty clear sense of how that will work, otherwise it is likely to be a waste of money and time.

 

There are people who have a sum of money saved up for college expenses, and it could potentially be used in other ways. 

 

But you are suggesting that people with no clear ideas in the first place think outside the box, though that does not come naturally to them.

 

"likely to be a waste of money and time' is exactly how I'd describe the efforts of such a person using saved college  money to start a business.

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But you are suggesting that people with no clear ideas in the first place think outside the box, though that does not come naturally to them.

 

"likely to be a waste of money and time' is exactly how I'd describe the efforts of such a person using saved college  money to start a business.

 

I think there are plenty of people who tend to go along with whatever is considered culturally normative who are intelligent, and who, if they stop to think about it, might see a reason to make a different decision.

 

For a while there has been a strong push that says that the path social advancement or security is to get a degree, and many schools and saving schemes and such are built around that.

 

So - I think it would be a good thing if people thought a little more carefully.  For kids who have a more entrepreneurial bent, it might light up some ideas.  And maybe that would not be right out of high school, perhaps some would work for a few years or whatever.  But once they've headed off to university, the money is spent and there may be pressure to pay off loans or get experience on whatever career path.

 

Essentially I am advocating less pressure and assumption that there is one clear path. 

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I asked my friend who is a best selling author if a BA was in any way helpful in getting published. She said absolutely not. Publishers look at the quality of the writing, not the quality of the writer's resume.

 

My children who are interested in English degrees want to get PhDs and do research and teach at a university level.

 

If they were just thinking about needing to get a job to make money, this would be a really losing proposition, so much money and time invested for so little money in the end.

 

If they have a way to get their educations through a combination of scholarships and their dad's savings, I think that they could have very happy, fulfilled lives with this plan.

 

I stick by my idea that the purpose of a college degree is going to be different for each kid.

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I'm planning to return to school to get a job as a teacher, hopefully high school. This is not a high earning profession (though better than the lower grades), but there's no way I'd go back to finish my degree to "expand my horizons." Seriously, if I had that kind of money to spend on personal enrichment, I'd go live abroad. 

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Yeah, I never said I got a BA to sell books, but that seems to be the idea people got.  It's not really what I intended this thread to be about, but I personally want to teach at the university level, or perhaps at a private high school.  (An MFA in writing is a terminal degree.) I only mentioned my major because obviously I was not thinking of financial security when I chose it. :lol:

 

It's common knowledge you don't need a degree to sell a book, but I would argue making connections in a good MFA program could make a difference.  The whole "who you know" thing.  Is it worth $60k to meet the right people?  That's debatable.

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