What if we just give up on math altogether?

[wendybern]

Dd18, a senior, is likely never going to finish Algebra 2. She did well in Algebra 1, Geometry, and the first half of Algebra 2 last fall. She has been at the second half of Alg2 all of 2015 and has not moved forward (we have tried different curriculum, that is not the problem). I am thinking of calling it "done," which will leave her with only 2.5 math credits for high school. Is that a terrible idea? Am I just encouraging her to give up when something is hard? 

 

She is a very concrete thinker and has a terrific memory for facts; she also loves subjects that are creative with no "right" answer (photography, novel-writing). She does not do well with abstractions or subjects that require her to make connections or solve problems without a step-by-step procedure. Her brain is just wired this way. And we've had a lot of interruptions to school this past year due to an illness she was dealing with and some other problems, so she is behind in credits and trying to catch up. Putting so much time into one subject without progress is not helping.

 

Academically, I am fine with moving on from math. She's going to work for a while after high school; if/when she's ready for college, she'll start with community college, where she could catch up on math. The one issue holding me back from this decision is the when-the-going-gets-tough-the-tough-get-going ethic. Am I helping her or hurting her if I let her bail? 

 

Thanks for any advice.

 

Wendy

[Shellydon]

In my state, you would not be able to be admitted to a university without 4 years of math.  If she is not going to college, then I am not sure it matters.  I would probably make her take a personal finance course instead.

[justasque]

I would reconsider your math goals. As a soon-to-be working young adult, she might benefit from a math course that covers personal finance topics, business-oriented topics, and statistics (useful for evaluating medical information and current events). Give her the half-credit of Alg2, and continue the year with a half-credit of the more relevant-to-her-life topics.

Since "consumer math" tends to be a lower-level class in schools, it might be hard to find an open-and-go curriculum (or not, I really don't know), but you may be able to put something together using a variety of resources. Books like "How to Lie with Statistics" and "A Mathematician Reads the Newspaper" may be useful.

[coffeegal]

 

 

The one issue holding me back from this decision is the when-the-going-gets-tough-the-tough-get-going ethic. Am I helping her or hurting her if I let her bail? 

 

Thanks for any advice.

 

Wendy

I doubt quitting algebra 2 now is going to hurt your daughter's work ethic. Dropping out of school would be a game-changer, but changing one class isn't. I do like the idea of switching to a business/consumer/financial math class for the remainder of high school though.

 

Best of luck to you both.

[wendybern]

Thank you Shellydon, justasque, and coffee gal. I should have mentioned, yes, she is taking Personal Finance for a half-credit. In Florida, that is counted as an elective, not as a math. And yes, universities in Florida also require 4 years of math, but the community colleges admit everyone and they offer remedial math classes. I've explained to her that she is short of math credits, she would need to get an associates degree from the community college before she could apply to a university; if she does well at the cc, her high school transcript will matter less.

[MariaT]

What if you created a semester-long business class?  I pasted below some of the info from a 2013 syllabus for a business class for non-business majors at USC. I searched for "business text for non majors" and got the pdf for this class. You could use it as a spine to build a custom class.

 

"This course provides students with an insight as to how a business is managed. There are many factors
that determine a company’s success including marketing, operations, finance and leadership, to name a
few. This course will give students the basics for understanding how these different departments work
independently yet are reliant on each other for a company to prosper.
To accomplish this goal, the course is divided into several major themes:
1.   Organization: How should a company be legally organized?
2.  Ethics & Social Responsibility
3.  Marketing
4.   Accounting
5.   Operations
6.  Finances
7.  Management & Leadership
8.  Negotiating

......

Ferrell, O.C., and Hirt, Geoffrey, and Ferrell, Linda. 2008. Business: A Changing World 7e.McGraw-Hill
Irwin
Berman, Karen, and Night, Joe, and Case, John. 2008. Financial Intelligence for Entrepreneurs.Harvard
Business Press. Order online at  http://www.amazon.com/Financial-Intelligence-Entrepreneurs-Really-Numbers/dp/1422119157/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358094145&sr=1-1&keywords=financial+intelligence+for+entrepreneurs
Optional Materials
Fisher, Roger and Ury, William. 1981. Getting to Yes; Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In.Penguin
Books
Gitomer, Jeffrey. 2005. Little Red Book of Selling; 12.5 Principals of Sales Greatness; How to make
sales FOREVER.Bard Press"

 

I feel for you and your DD. My oldest DD was D-O-N-E with math long before the end of senior year.

Good luck!!

Maria

[Shellydon]

I am not sure anyone can answer for you.  For *me* , my kids would not be allowed to bail.  All of my kids are neurotypical and I expect them to complete the minimum that would be required at public school for math,which is 4 credits.  I personally would not allow a child to graduate without 4 years of math, 4 of English/writing/lit etc. 

[Ellie]

She's 18. She has learned enough math. If she were my dd, I would have graduated her on her 18th birthday.

 

Don't pull out that old when-the-going-gets-tough-the-tough-get-going-ethic argument. As adults, we quit things all the time.

 

And why are we having this discussion anyway? You have already said she can finish her math pre-reqs at the community college, so...

[dereksurfs]

Let's consider the other side of the coin for a moment.  What is the worse case scenario if she were to stay the course?  What other more important classes might math effect?  What about letting some of the other lighter subjects go instead?  Our middle dd struggles with math quite a bit.  We know she will most likely not finish this year's math on time.  So, we'll continue into the Summer until she completes it.  I've heard many stories from homeschool families who have non-math oriented kids.  Yet they stuck with math through high school even though they were focused on liberal arts.  It was only later in college that they came to appreciate the work their parents made them endure. :p  That may or may not be the same for your daughter.  But I would prefer easing up on other subjects before math, especially if the other subjects come more naturally to her.  Those would be much easier to 'make up' later than math will be, IMO.

 

Just my 2c FWIW,

Edited January 3, 2016 by dereksurfs

[SparklyUnicorn]

No clue.  But I wanted to ask about people saying they need 4 math credits to graduate.  Is this just something that varies by state?  Because for an advanced high school diploma they still only require 3 credits (in NY).

 

Not saying that is my plan, but I have never heard of 4 being required to graduate from high school.

 

 

[Joker]

No clue. But I wanted to ask about people saying they need 4 math credits to graduate. Is this just something that varies by state? Because for an advanced high school diploma they still only require 3 credits (in NY).

 

Not saying that is my plan, but I have never heard of 4 being required to graduate from high school.

They need four math credits for an honors diploma here. They need three for a regular diploma.

 

ETA: Technically, they say 6 credits for regular and 8 for honors here as they count one credit each semester.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Joker

[SparklyUnicorn]

They need four math credits for an honors diploma here. They need three for a regular diploma.

 

Huh.  Here it is three for regular or advanced.

 

And for the homeschool regs it is 2.

[dereksurfs]

Dd18, a senior, is likely never going to finish Algebra 2. She did well in Algebra 1, Geometry, and the first half of Algebra 2 last fall. She has been at the second half of Alg2 all of 2015 and has not moved forward (we have tried different curriculum, that is not the problem).

 

Could a tutor help her, perhaps?

Edited January 3, 2016 by dereksurfs

[Pen]

Dd18, a senior, is likely never going to finish Algebra 2. She did well in Algebra 1, Geometry, and the first half of Algebra 2 last fall. She has been at the second half of Alg2 all of 2015 and has not moved forward (we have tried different curriculum, that is not the problem). I am thinking of calling it "done," which will leave her with only 2.5 math credits for high school. Is that a terrible idea? Am I just encouraging her to give up when something is hard? 

 

She is a very concrete thinker and has a terrific memory for facts; she also loves subjects that are creative with no "right" answer (photography, novel-writing). She does not do well with abstractions or subjects that require her to make connections or solve problems without a step-by-step procedure. Her brain is just wired this way. And we've had a lot of interruptions to school this past year due to an illness she was dealing with and some other problems, so she is behind in credits and trying to catch up. Putting so much time into one subject without progress is not helping.

 

Academically, I am fine with moving on from math. She's going to work for a while after high school; if/when she's ready for college, she'll start with community college, where she could catch up on math. The one issue holding me back from this decision is the when-the-going-gets-tough-the-tough-get-going ethic. Am I helping her or hurting her if I let her bail? 

 

Thanks for any advice.

 

Wendy

 

 

Given the problems with illness and so forth, as that it seems no progress is being made, I would let her drop Algebra 2.

 

In my state though, 3 full years math credits in Algebra 1 or higher are needed to graduate, so I would have to put something in place of the last half of Algebra2.

 

I would probably choose a math class suited to getting into work and jobs and independent living, or else a light intro to statistics type class.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

No clue. But I wanted to ask about people saying they need 4 math credits to graduate. Is this just something that varies by state? Because for an advanced high school diploma they still only require 3 credits (in NY).

 

Not saying that is my plan, but I have never heard of 4 being required to graduate from high school.

 

Universities like to see four math credits. Most states don't require four to graduate.

[Rosie_0801]

I'm not in the US so I didn't need to have year 12 maths to graduate. I do not in the least regret dropping it, but in hindsight, I do wish there had been business/finance type courses I could take instead. I'm trying to learn those sorts of things now. :)

[abba12]

In my country we don't have to worry about having certain courses/credits on our university application, so we aren't bound to a certain 'college prep' set of classes.

 

For my family, personally (and both mine and my husbands family when we were homeschooled students) the required math for me to graduate them would likely be Algebra 1, Geometry, Statistics, and some sort of Personal Finance/Business Math. Now, if they want to do more, that's great and wonderful and I'd encourage it. But those 4 topics are my minimum requirements for a child who is not math inclined. Anything more is all theoretical with no real world use (in any field they would enter. Of course some fields like engineering use trig/calc, but a non-mathy kid isn't going to turn around and become an engineer).

 

Have you considered a statistics course that doesn't require higher math? I know that's less common in the US, but it's integrated into high school math here and I think it's invaluable to analytical/logical thinking. It'\s also often more accessible to non-mathy kids, or at least the first half.  

Edited January 3, 2016 by abba12

[dereksurfs]

In my country we don't have to worry about having certain courses/credits on our university application, so we aren't bound to a certain 'college prep' set of classes.

 

For my family, personally (and both mine and my husbands family when we were homeschooled students) the required math for me to graduate them would likely be Algebra 1, Geometry, Statistics, and some sort of Personal Finance/Business Math. Now, if they want to do more, that's great and wonderful and I'd encourage it. But those 4 topics are my minimum requirements for a child who is not math inclined. Anything more is all theoretical with no real world use (in any field they would enter. Of course some fields like engineering use trig/calc, but a non-mathy kid isn't going to turn around and become an engineer).

 

Have you considered a statistics course that doesn't require higher math? I know that's less common in the US, but it's integrated into high school math here and I think it's invaluable to analytical/logical thinking. It'\s also often more accessible to non-mathy kids, or at least the first half.  

 

Statistics is a good option.  Even liberal arts majors need to understand how to work with numbers and stats is very practical in every day life.  

[foxbridgeacademy]

In my state only 3 years of math are required to graduate from P.S. but one of them is Alg II.  Luckily my state has no requirements for HSer's.  I'd call her done with Math especially knowing that she's going to work for awhile then attend CC when her brain might be ready to learn the info.  As for quitting, like PP said adults quit things all the time, there is value in knowing when you've had enough and that it's time to let go. Having never taken Statistics I have no idea the difficulty but would something like that work for an additional 1/2 credit?  

 

*Didn't realize the previous posters also suggested Statistics, great minds?

Edited January 3, 2016 by foxbridgeacademy

[teachermom2834]

Our state requires 4 credits- alg 1, alg 2, geometry, and one "higher math". That is usually precal or stats but can also be college algebra or what some schools call bridge math with is actually a review. Many students even in public school use DE to fulfill that 4th credit. This is TN.

[Melissa B]

I would give a full credit for the Algebra 2 even though she didn't finish the book. It happens all the time in high school and college. Many schools in Florida even split Algebra 1 up over two years and give two high school credits. And I would give a half credit for the personal finance because we are homeschoolers and can do things like that. I am giving my daughter a high school credit for the Prealgebra she took in 9th grade. I prefer that to two credits of Algebra I. I would choose a statistics or liberal arts math course to take second semester so she has 4 credits of math. That leaves the university door open to her in the future.

[wendybern]

Wow, thank you everyone for all of your input and ideas. So appreciative to the group!

 

She is not neurotypical. She is still very much a concrete thinker, and has generally been a couple of years "behind" the neurotypical in thinking, maturity,  etc., and she has some mental health challenges that make frustration more of big deal than with most kids. Thus my thinking that she might be more capable of tackling this kind of math when she's older.

 

We are in Florida. For a public high school diploma, 4 years of math Alg1 or higher are required. For a homeschool diploma, we can do whatever we want, although of course we compete with everyone else for college admissions and the universities do want 4 years of math.

 

I will explore statistics (never thought of that!), business math, and liberal arts math; good ideas. Thank you!

 

Wendy

[Ellie]

No clue.  But I wanted to ask about people saying they need 4 math credits to graduate.  Is this just something that varies by state?  Because for an advanced high school diploma they still only require 3 credits (in NY).

 

Not saying that is my plan, but I have never heard of 4 being required to graduate from high school.

 

It absolutely varies by state. Because states rights. :-)

 

Most states don't specify credits for homeschooled students.

[GoodGrief]

I want to second the idea of getting a tutor to work one on one with her and get her through the Alg 2. Might help in solidifying that math foundation too and make other coursework less intimidating. It was a lifesaver for my non-mathy daughter, and I've seen that help a local friend's daughter here as well.

 

The thing with going to community college for math after graduation if needed is that she will likely still have the math issues, but less help/support at that point.

 

My oldest actually did dual enrollment math in a local small university as a high school student with the tutor, and then was able to go into college no longer needing math credits (as her high school credits transferred, and she chose a major that did not require additional math beyond the basics.)

Edited January 4, 2016 by Gr8lander

[DebbS]

As another option, most states consider computer science as a math course. As a CSCI major in college, I didn't find any correlation between my math abilities and my programming abilities. Math was hard for me and programming came easily.

[Alison in KY]

I'd give her the full credit and call it good :).  My son is very intelligent but has always struggled with math.  He doesn't fit in the typical math box for college, but I am not going to ever tell him he couldn't go to college because of his math scores and lack of advancement.  It's taken me awhile to get this attitude :)  I've worried more about mouth than anything, tried a variety of programs, tutoring, etc.  Sometimes smart kids just can't do a subject (or that's our experience).  I assume it's his ADD. 

 

A close friend and mentor has a daughter who never completed Algebra 1 in highschool.  She's not successfully going through college on her way to being a physicians assistant.  This mom tried and tried to get through the math.  Maybe it just takes some longer to get it, maybe some never do.  I just know I'm tired of stressing over it and having my kid feel stupid about math :).

[wendybern]

Maybe it just takes some longer to get it, maybe some never do.  I just know I'm tired of stressing over it and having my kid feel stupid about math :).

 

Yes, this. Thanks everyone for helping me decide. We are done with math!!! All relieved. I would rather build her confidence by giving her more time to work on subjects she can succeed at, than make her continue to struggle with something she is just not ready for, even with a tutor.

 

Love this community. :)

[Rosie_0801]

Yes, this. Thanks everyone for helping me decide. We are done with math!!! All relieved. I would rather build her confidence by giving her more time to work on subjects she can succeed at, than make her continue to struggle with something she is just not ready for, even with a tutor.

 

Love this community. :)

 

Consider "just happening" to buy the Cashflow board games to play as a family. My dd is only small, but has dyscalculia. She finds Cashflow for Kids extremely inspiring. Not all finance is maths.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Rosie_0801

[Pat in MI]

Our state requires Algebra 1 and 2, and geometry, with one more math credit in their senior year.  The senior math credit can be things other than a higher math class.   Things like accounting, finance, physics and a variety of other courses fit that credit.  My son did Algebra 2 over two years at the local high school.   They called it Algebra 2A and 2B, the same material was covered just at a much slower pace.    He received a credit for both.  

[Lolly]

Yes, this. Thanks everyone for helping me decide. We are done with math!!! All relieved. I would rather build her confidence by giving her more time to work on subjects she can succeed at, than make her continue to struggle with something she is just not ready for, even with a tutor.

 

Love this community. :)

 

Good choice. ANd, I think you are helping her, not hurting her. Not everyone is EVER going to get math. If/when she goes to college, she can start in the remedial classes. My non math dd found that to be quite inspiring. It is basic, elementary math. The only other math she had to take was Prob and Stats, which she found to be hard, but doable/passable. I wish I had quit maths with her earlier in high school. She didn't need all the algebra I pushed on her! (And, never will.)