Math for my youngers

[Runningmom80]

I'm having an inner turmoil about math.  I have about 8 months before I actually need to decide on this, but I want to talk it out anyways.

 

Ok, here's their background,

 

They are both most likely GT, but closer to the moderate end.  I suspect my DS is HG, he grasps things quickly, read at 3, etc.  DD read at 4, she's quick with language (One of those 5 going on 15 types.)  So I guess what I'm getting at is from what I can see at this point, a more challenging math is where we should lean, and I'm sure at least some acceleration will be taking place. I'm going to start them off together and then if they need something different, I'll figure it out then.

 

They are in their 3rd year of Montessori school, so next year will be first grade.  They are both working on "bead frame" which is sort of like an abacus, that gets them ready to do those long number chains that I'm a little unclear about but I think they are multiplication or squares, cubes, etc.  (I am not a Montessori teacher! :lol: ) 

 

Ok, anyways, here's what I feel like my options are, and I should mention, if BA for second grade was ready, I'd probably be going with that.  Since it's not, I will have to figure something out. :crying:

 

1. Singapore math - did this with older, it's a solid program that I'm already familiar with. However, I'm not looking forward to buying all of those workbooks, and it seemed tedious as far as accelerating goes.  (even though we accelerated pretty quickly through them, I still felt the need for the HIG, text, IP and CWP.  I even sometimes bought the workbooks.  I hated all the separate books, and also paying for them. times 2 is really going to annoy me.)

 

2. MM - a nice alternative to SM, definitely cheaper, especially for 2 kids. I'm actually leaning towards this, but I have a tiny nagging feeling that it's not as "good" as SM. I'm also worried about the layout visually.  I do prefer the amount of space in SM.  (Probably totally incorrect. :laugh: )

 

3. Miquon - I'm not at all confident I'll ever understand it, but I am perpetually intrigued by it. :drool:

 

4. MEP -  I've looked into this in the past, doesn't seem appealing to me, but again, I'm intrigued.

 

 

Any suggestions?

 

 

 

[HomeAgain]

We're using MEP this year in conjunction with Archimedes' Roost, a Montessori math app.  It works quite well in teaching the puzzle side of math and has allowed us to delve more into Critical Thinking Co.'s offerings.

[Sarah0000]

Singapore was too easy for my DS. I suspect it was because of the visual layout, and he's great at visual spatial stuff.

 

Mep is more challenging for him, but not because the content is more advanced but because the format doesn't spell it out for him. He has to think about what the problem is asking. We both like this better. Fair warning, we're only accelerating through Y1 with the worksheets to catch up to Y2. Who knows what we'll think then, but I hope this will fit as out main math program. We've been bouncing around quite a bit!

 

We also love Miquon, but only as a discovery program. I very rarely "teach" Miquon, and then when I do its more like DS and I figuring out what the point of the lab sheet is. I've read the Lab Annotations but don't use them. Its possible your children would like Miquon even if you don't understand it.

 

MM doesn't seem as good to me either, but I've never used it. My understanding is there are lots of problems and its better for drill without losing the conceptual focus...not sure. My DS is too young for worksheet drill.

 

We also do LoF and living math books. I'm considering adding in FAN math in a few months. I'm interested in BA as well, but DS doesn't have the maturity for it yet. I'm loosely planning to wait for the second grade to be published and starting at the beginning even though it will be review at that point.

[Runningmom80]

Singapore workbook was easy for my DS, but the IP and CWP were not. 

 

The more I think about it, the more I realize I'll prob do a year of singapore and then switch to BA.

[Sarah0000]

I should have specified, I usually do, but we only went through the Singapore 1 textbooks orally. I'm trying to avoid repetitive practice for now because of his age. Its been a challenge.

[wapiti]

Singapore workbook was easy for my DS, but the IP and CWP were not. 

 

The more I think about it, the more I realize I'll prob do a year of singapore and then switch to BA.

 

FWIW, that is what I'd suggest.  I'd look at two prongs here: (1) what skills do your kids need before starting BA that they don't already have, and (2) when do you think they'd be ready for BA skill-wise vs. developmental maturity-wise.

 

It may be that they already have most of the skills needed (multi-digit subtraction, etc.) depending on what's going on in their classroom.  And/or, they might need more practice.  You may be in a position of tiding yourselves over until it's time to give BA a go.  If they already have the requisite skills, maybe just IP/CWP would do, or a little of this, a little of that...

[Runningmom80]

I do think they'll need more practice. Also, I can't definitively say BA will be a good fit. I suspect it will, but we all know how that usually works out. :)

Edited December 29, 2015 by Runningmom80

[Runningmom80]

Or perhaps miquon to BA, with a little IP mixed in?  (can you tell i really want to make miquon work? :lol: )

[BooksandBoys]

Or perhaps miquon to BA, with a little IP mixed in? (can you tell i really want to make miquon work? :lol: )

If I didn't have access to really inexpensive Singapore, thus is what I would do. Since I do get Singapore for the cost of consumables, I use Singapore and Miquon with the plan to continue in BA when I can afford it (soon, I hope).

[Sarah0000]

I just discovered Greg Tang's website, and on it are addition and subtraction worksheets that require making tens to complete the problem. There are ones with the number bonds format and ones with the bar modeling format, for single and multi digit add/subtract. There's also a word problem generator.

 

These seem like the Singapore methods minus the cutesy pictures. If you want to make Miquon work, maybe these worksheets could be used alongside for fluency.

[Runningmom80]

Thank you! I'll look at the website!

[Black-eyed Suzan]

Or perhaps miquon to BA, with a little IP mixed in? (can you tell i really want to make miquon work? :lol: )

This is my plan with my younger. :)

[Runningmom80]

Ok it's time for me to decide on this. I keep going back and forth between SM and MM.

 

As far as where they are, if you are familiar with Montessori, both have finished the cube chains. DS was starting a new subtraction work when the school year ended. DD was biding her time til the end after she finished the cube chains. They have addition facts under 20 pretty much memorized, definitely 1-10 is solid. They probably need more subtraction work but I don't see it taking too long to catch up to addition.

 

 

Anyone else want to weigh in?

[Jackie]

How about Math Mammoth plus CWP for added depth/challenge?

[Runningmom80]

How about Math Mammoth plus CWP for added depth/challenge?

That is a good idea. I have some Montessori math materials I'd like to use, and I think I could fit them in easier with MM. (Did I mention it's cheaper? Lol)

[Sarah0000]

For that level I haven't found Singapore (again just textbooks) very useful. Moving to multi digit subtraction/addition is a natural extension concept wise. At least it was here. For practice I make up my own problems on a whiteboard or do problems from LoF (multi digit introduced in Dogs).

 

Miquon however has so much more. There are multiple ways of practicing the same material. But it sounds like you're not considering that anymore.

[Sarah0000]

Are there new ways to do problems in the Singapore IP? Or is it all set up the same way as in the textbook but just harder calculations?

 

For DS at least, after a strong foundation in beginning addition and subtraction he very quickly mastered the next level. It sounds like your children have a strong foundation too so I wonder if they would need a full year program for multi digit, you know? I've read on here before of people only doing every other Singapore level (1,3, 5) and I can see why they would.

[Runningmom80]

For that level I haven't found Singapore (again just textbooks) very useful. Moving to multi digit subtraction/addition is a natural extension concept wise. At least it was here. For practice I make up my own problems on a whiteboard or do problems from LoF (multi digit introduced in Dogs).

 

Miquon however has so much more. There are multiple ways of practicing the same material. But it sounds like you're not considering that anymore.

 

I am still so intrigued by Miquon, and I think it would blend nicely with the Montessori stuff I am looking into.

 

 

Hmmm, maybe I should try it again.  I have the Lab Annotations, maybe I'll buy the orange book and the First grade diary and see if that helps me understand it.

 

I was all set to do singapore again, but I really loathe all the books that I would need to buy.  Obviously only one HIG and text, but the workbooks, and time 2 is so annoying.  I have too many books as it is.  However, it would be easiest for me because I did 1-4 with their older brother. I get the system.  I did do some MM with him, and that was fine, he just preferred the look of Singapore.

 

Also, my older DS accelerated pretty quickly through SM, and it got expensive some years. This is why I'm looking into MM, I can buy one set for both kids and print only what we need. 

 

Maybe MM and Miquon? 

[Kathy in Richmond]

Yeah, take another look at Miquon!

 

My son went to Montessori before transitioning to public elementary school. The math in the elem school was so boring for him (before I'd even considered homeschooling) that I did Miquon with him at home. Worked very well for a kid who was used to discovering and internalizing math patterns on his own from Montessori. :)

[Runningmom80]

Yeah, take another look at Miquon!

 

My son went to Montessori before transitioning to public elementary school. The math in the elem school was so boring for him (before I'd even considered homeschooling) that I did Miquon with him at home. Worked very well for a kid who was used to discovering and internalizing math patterns on his own from Montessori. :)

 

Thank you!  Good to know. :)

[Sarah0000]

I don't know what's usually recommended in terms of where to start in Miquon, but you could likely skip Orange altogether and start in Red. IIRC, there's no multi digit operations in Orange. Even in Red its just two digits, but there's also beginning multiplication/division and fraction work. The sheets are more straightforward than in the Orange book.

[Runningmom80]

I don't know what's usually recommended in terms of where to start in Miquon, but you could likely skip Orange altogether and start in Red. IIRC, there's no multi digit operations in Orange. Even in Red its just two digits, but there's also beginning multiplication/division and fraction work. The sheets are more straightforward than in the Orange book.

 

I am wondering if we would need the orange book to become familiar with the cuisenaire rods?

[boscopup]

My little guy that's doing Singapore 3 does CWP using the copy I used with my oldest years ago. I just cover up the answer, and he writes everything out on a sliding glass door (I'd use the giant white board we have, but it's in the baby's room for now :p).

 

It's a little harder to do that with IP, especially the puzzle type problems. I'm not using IP right now. I've decided that my little guy doesn't need to be challenged to the max as long as he's happy. He'll do AoPS when he gets to Prealgebra, and we sometimes do BA (I have all of 3 and part of 4). There's only so much challenge you can give to the 4 basic operations. I think it's easier to challenge them at the prealgebra/algebra on up levels.

 

I think doing Singapore 2 and then switching to BA 3 would be a fine idea for you. Or MM 2... Really, they're both excellent programs that teach math well. MM is more incremental and has more problems and less white space, so aesthetically, I tend to prefer Singapore for that reason. I did use MM 1-4 for the oldest when he was accelerating though. I haven't had to really accelerate my younger kids as much because they were able to start earlier, and thus didn't need as much acceleration.

[Runningmom80]

My little guy that's doing Singapore 3 does CWP using the copy I used with my oldest years ago. I just cover up the answer, and he writes everything out on a sliding glass door (I'd use the giant white board we have, but it's in the baby's room for now :p).

 

It's a little harder to do that with IP, especially the puzzle type problems. I'm not using IP right now. I've decided that my little guy doesn't need to be challenged to the max as long as he's happy. He'll do AoPS when he gets to Prealgebra, and we sometimes do BA (I have all of 3 and part of 4). There's only so much challenge you can give to the 4 basic operations. I think it's easier to challenge them at the prealgebra/algebra on up levels.

 

I think doing Singapore 2 and then switching to BA 3 would be a fine idea for you. Or MM 2... Really, they're both excellent programs that teach math well. MM is more incremental and has more problems and less white space, so aesthetically, I tend to prefer Singapore for that reason. I did use MM 1-4 for the oldest when he was accelerating though. I haven't had to really accelerate my younger kids as much because they were able to start earlier, and thus didn't need as much acceleration.

 

I remember I just kept feeling like older DS needed the IP and CWP.  I also felt like he needed the textbook for learning, and I liked the workbook because it was explicitly spelled out for me which pages he needed to do to solidify the book lesson.  I tried dropping the text, and that didn't work well, I tried dropping the workbook, but I felt like the IP then wasn't enough review alone.  CWP we hardly ever got to because of the other 3 books. :lol:

[Cake and Pi]

The discussion on Miquon has me really curious now!  

 

My DS#3 has been working through Right Start B in fits and starts, which I think is Montessori inspired?  I'm a really big fan of RS, but it hasn't been "enough" for DS#3.  So, I give him pages from MEP 1, which he LOVES, and we've done the SM 1 textbooks and some of 2A orally.  I have to say though, I don't get the point of the SM workbooks?  They seemed like just more of the exercises in the textbook?  Our charter's curriculum library doesn't have CWP or IP, so I've never seen those, but if they're as good as most people say, I'd think you'd just need the textbook and those?  You could take the pages out and put them in dry erase pockets so they could be reused to save money and not need to buy quite so many books.

[Cake and Pi]

Oh, meant to say that if we didn't have access to RS, we'd be using MEP as our main.  We both really like it, and it seems like good preparation for BA.

[Runningmom80]

The discussion on Miquon has me really curious now!  

 

My DS#3 has been working through Right Start B in fits and starts, which I think is Montessori inspired?  I'm a really big fan of RS, but it hasn't been "enough" for DS#3.  So, I give him pages from MEP 1, which he LOVES, and we've done the SM 1 textbooks and some of 2A orally.  I have to say though, I don't get the point of the SM workbooks?  They seemed like just more of the exercises in the textbook?  Our charter's curriculum library doesn't have CWP or IP, so I've never seen those, but if they're as good as most people say, I'd think you'd just need the textbook and those?  You could take the pages out and put them in dry erase pockets so they could be reused to save money and not need to buy quite so many books.

 

I tried to just use IP and CWP with my older, and it was difficult to match up problems with text lessons.  When I could figure out which pages he should do, there often weren't enough for a whole chapter of lessons. (He would do too much of the "topic" in the IP book and we'd have a lot of the chapter left.)  For us what worked best was TB, WB and either IP or CWP, but not all 4. 

 

Also, my twins would be using the books at the same time, so I'd need 2 of each book regardless. I suppose I could photocopy but that is more work than I'd like to do.

[Cake and Pi]

I tried to just use IP and CWP with my older, and it was difficult to match up problems with text lessons.  When I could figure out which pages he should do, there often weren't enough for a whole chapter of lessons. (He would do too much of the "topic" in the IP book and we'd have a lot of the chapter left.)  For us what worked best was TB, WB and either IP or CWP, but not all 4. 

 

Also, my twins would be using the books at the same time, so I'd need 2 of each book regardless. I suppose I could photocopy but that is more work than I'd like to do.

 

Ah, yes, I see what you mean, and it does seem like a lot to juggle with two kids at the same time.  Sooo, in that case, I vote MEP, lol.  

[lewelma]

MEP gives you flexibility.  If you misplace your child in a math text or he zooms ahead, you can just print/use the next level up.  We did not use MEP primary, but have enjoyed MEP secondary for just that reason.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Runningmom80]

MEP gives you flexibility.  If you misplace your child in a math text or he zooms ahead, you can just print/use the next level up.  We did not use MEP primary, but have enjoyed MEP secondary for just that reason.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

good point!

[Black-eyed Suzan]

I am wondering if we would need the orange book to become familiar with the cuisenaire rods?

 

My younger is now almost done with Red, so I checked. Red starts with Even-Odd, and assumes knowledge of the rods. But could your kids get that from a lesson or two from you along the lines of Education Unboxed?

[boscopup]

I remember I just kept feeling like older DS needed the IP and CWP. I also felt like he needed the textbook for learning, and I liked the workbook because it was explicitly spelled out for me which pages he needed to do to solidify the book lesson. I tried dropping the text, and that didn't work well, I tried dropping the workbook, but I felt like the IP then wasn't enough review alone. CWP we hardly ever got to because of the other 3 books. :lol:

Yeah, I just use textbook and workbook, and we do extra on occasion. I also have the HIG. We go over the textbook orally, then let him do the workbook on his own. He started level 3 toward the end of 1st grade, so he's ahead enough that I don't need to speed things up for him. He's fine where he is.

 

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

[Sarah0000]

I would suggest free play with the rods and activities from education unboxed for getting familiar with the rods. Just going through Miquon Orange probably wouldn't be enough for that anyway because many of the pages don't use the rods at all.

 

Maybe you could try out Mep while doing Education Unboxed with the rods then maybe you'll have a better feel for what you prefer? I really like Mep as well. There is such a variety of the way concepts are practiced. The only thing difficult about it is that the worksheets have a variety of types of problems and I found myself wasting a lot of ink trying to print pages in a lower level for arithmetic, a higher level for the v/s puzzles and only using a fifth of each sheet.

[AmandaVT]

How about Math Mammoth plus CWP for added depth/challenge?

 

This is what we did and we were able to move very seamlessly into BA3 this year in 2nd. We supplemented with MM4 for a bit and finally dropped it for just BA.

[Runningmom80]

Ok, any opinions on Right start?  Is it not great for GT kids?  My twins are probably MG so not incredibly accelerated, but looking at first grade curricula, I think they are going to move fast, at least at first.

 

I'm wanting to keep some Montessori in their lives since they had success at their school.  I have some materials like stamp game, bead frame and something else that I can't remember right now.

 

If right start is no good, I think I'm going to go with traditional montessori stuff and weave in Miquon, then transition to something else.  I think they will progress through montessori 6-9 materials pretty quickly, and I don't see us going too much farther past that, although there is hands on equations....

[Jackie]

We used RightStart A-C. It has its strengths and weaknesses.

 

Biggest strengths:

- The manipulatives were hugely helpful for number sense, and the variety of manips meant if DD didn't quite grasp it with one, she might still with another.

- The procedure of learning the concept hands-on first typically made the progression to paper algorithms easy.

- The emphasis on place value has easily carried over to all sorts of other math for DD.

- The abacus is a manipulative that we still refer to with other math. She learned to use it well, so it is fairly efficient for her.

 

Biggest weaknesses:

- Uneven pacing. It generally moved quite slowly, then sometimes really fast, with no rhyme or reason.

- Difficult to accelerate. The format is generally a couple lessons on a topic to introduce it, then switch to a different topic for a while, then go back to the first topic and cover it in depth. If you are math-oriented yourself, it's not difficult to look over the entire thing, see where they are going, and then work on adjusting pacing. If you are not math-oriented, people find it extremely difficult to understand the progression, which makes it almost impossible to accelerate effectively.

- The manipulatives. Yeah, they're a strength, too. DD benefitted greatly from them in A and B. In C, she was ready to leave them behind. There were lots of complaints along the lines of "AGAIN? We already did this exact same thing yesterday with something else!" She recognized the concepts easily, was able to translate it to paper almost immediately, and the manipulatives were too slow for her.

 

In the middle:

- Most people cite the games as a strength. For us, not so much. DD recognized them immediately for what they were: fact drill disguised as "fun". She *hated* them and grumbled every time I broke out the cards. She tolerated them occasionally (and did like Addition War), but when we got to level C she finally had an absolute outburst, refused to play any of the games, and begged for flash cards because they wouldn't take up so much time.

[Runningmom80]

We used RightStart A-C. It has its strengths and weaknesses.

 

Biggest strengths:

- The manipulatives were hugely helpful for number sense, and the variety of manips meant if DD didn't quite grasp it with one, she might still with another.

- The procedure of learning the concept hands-on first typically made the progression to paper algorithms easy.

- The emphasis on place value has easily carried over to all sorts of other math for DD.

- The abacus is a manipulative that we still refer to with other math. She learned to use it well, so it is fairly efficient for her.

 

Biggest weaknesses:

- Uneven pacing. It generally moved quite slowly, then sometimes really fast, with no rhyme or reason.

- Difficult to accelerate. The format is generally a couple lessons on a topic to introduce it, then switch to a different topic for a while, then go back to the first topic and cover it in depth. If you are math-oriented yourself, it's not difficult to look over the entire thing, see where they are going, and then work on adjusting pacing. If you are not math-oriented, people find it extremely difficult to understand the progression, which makes it almost impossible to accelerate effectively.

- The manipulatives. Yeah, they're a strength, too. DD benefitted greatly from them in A and B. In C, she was ready to leave them behind. There were lots of complaints along the lines of "AGAIN? We already did this exact same thing yesterday with something else!" She recognized the concepts easily, was able to translate it to paper almost immediately, and the manipulatives were too slow for her.

 

In the middle:

- Most people cite the games as a strength. For us, not so much. DD recognized them immediately for what they were: fact drill disguised as "fun". She *hated* them and grumbled every time I broke out the cards. She tolerated them occasionally (and did like Addition War), but when we got to level C she finally had an absolute outburst, refused to play any of the games, and begged for flash cards because they wouldn't take up so much time.

 

Awesome review, and pretty much what I've gathered throughout the years reading this board. 

 

Thank you for taking the time to type that all up, I really appreciate it!

 

[Runningmom80]

Ok I think I'm doing Miquon with a touch of Montessori, unless they start getting confused, and at that point I'll move to Miquon. This all hinges on if I can figure it out.

 

If not, I have MM, but I just looked at 1A again, and we'll have to go much faster, at least at first.

 

Anyone want to buy a bunch of Singapore stuff? :laugh:

Edited June 12, 2016 by Runningmom80