What Consequence for This Behavior?

[SKL]

As for math - I have never heard of kids school-subject wishlists, so your example doesn't make sense.  Unschoolers aside.  

 

Well that is debatable.  Don't most of us honor our kids' wishes to do more reading, study more science, accelerated math, learn a specific instrument or language, etc?  Just because they don't write it on a list doesn't mean we don't consider our kids' desires/requests when we decide what they are going to do as far as schooling.

 

And also it depends on what you mean by "wishlist."  To me a Christmas wish list is a communication to parents (or Santa) about what a child likes.  In my world, it isn't a list of specifications that must be followed precisely in order to produce a successful Christmas.  In my world, there are usually things on the list that are not received, and things not on the list that are received.  Also in my world, there is no expectation that the parent / Santa give only delightful gifts.  That expectation is set early on by not worrying "what if my kid doesn't want ___" when doing Christmas shopping for littles.  Kids learn that they can dislike a gift, quietly set it aside, and not be haunted by it.  So there is no good reason to punish the parents for getting a dumb gift.  I really don't see what the wish list has to do with it.  Is a wish list a contract at some people's homes?

Edited December 29, 2015 by SKL

[barnwife]

And an anecdote...

DS5 and DD3 are playing "Christmas" in our living room. I just heard him tell her, "Here is your present." She opened it and declared, "It isn't what I wanted!"

I laughed (thinking of this thread) and chimed in, "Oh my goodness. That's not what we say when we open a present. We say 'thank you.' "

Situation resolved. (And they are still giving each other "presents" as I type this, so there must not be any hard feelings.)

[Catwoman]

Well that is debatable. Don't most of us honor our kids' wishes to do more reading, study more science, accelerated math, learn a specific instrument or language, etc? Just because they don't write it on a list doesn't mean we don't consider our kids' desires/requests when we decide what they are going to do as far as schooling.

 

And also it depends on what you mean by "wishlist." To me a Christmas wish list is a communication to parents (or Santa) about what a child likes. In my world, it isn't a list of specifications that must be followed precisely in order to produce a successful Christmas. In my world, there are usually things on the list that don't get received, and things not on the list that do get received. Also in my world, there is no expectation that the parent / Santa give only delightful gifts. That expectation is set early on by not worrying "what if my kid doesn't want ___" when doing Christmas shopping for littles. Kids learn that they can dislike a gift, quietly set it aside, and not be haunted by it. So there is no good reason to punish the parents for getting a dumb gift. I really don't see what the wish list has to do with it. Is a wish list a contract at some people's homes?

But why bother buying gifts if you're not concerned about getting your kids things they will like? My ds is 15 and I still worry about getting him things he wants, because I want him to have a great Christmas. I figure if I'm spending the money, I might as well do my best to choose the right presents.

 

My ds also has veto power over all of his gifts. I save the receipts for everything and he knows he can return anything he doesn't like. I know some parents would disagree with me for doing that, but I figure it's a waste of money for him to be forced to keep things he doesn't like and won't use.

[SKL]

I really do not comprehend the point of knowingly giving someone a "present" they don't like and don't want. How is that a "gift"???

 

If the only reason you are giving this child books is to create the illusion of "equality," then really these "gifts" are there for your sake not hers. If you want to truly "balance" the gifts, then give them both what they want rather than giving one what she wants and then adding unwanted filler to other child's pile.

 

Well I don't really care whether you think it is acceptable for me to wrap these things and put them under the tree.  It's what I do.  Period.

 

It's our family's tradition and it suited me fine as a kid.

 

You don't know my kids.  If you did, you would know that one of my kids has all sorts of "wants" like an average kid, and the other one does not.  She will ask for one or two small things for Christmas.  She will usually get everything she asked for (as long as it's not "a dog," etc.).  Then she will notice what her sister got, and compare.  If she has 2 little things to open and spends the next 20 minutes watching her sister tear into her gifts, she will be upset, regardless of the fact that she actually got everything she asked for.

 

I could buy her 20 gifts of cosmetics and candy and she'd probably be happy, but that wouldn't be the right thing either.  At some point I get to consider what is good for my kid.

[marbel]

But why bother buying gifts if you're not concerned about getting your kids things they will like? My ds is 15 and I still worry about getting him things he wants, because I want him to have a great Christmas. I figure if I'm spending the money, I might as well do my best to choose the right presents.

 

My ds also has veto power over all of his gifts. I save the receipts for everything and he knows he can return anything he doesn't like. I know some parents would disagree with me for doing that, but I figure it's a waste of money for him to be forced to keep things he doesn't like and won't use.

 

I think my MIL and FIL don't care if we like the gifts they give us. They just like giving gifts.  They have given us all sort of things that made us shake our heads in bewilderment.   Scented products when they know their son and grandson are allergic to them.   Clothing for me after my husband has asked them repeatedly not to buy me clothing.  Clothing for our daughter - she likes clothing as a gift, so that's fine - but in colors I've told them she does not like to wear.  Just because she's female doesn't mean pale pink is a fave color.   Trousers for her that never fit - and I've asked that they not buy trousers because.. they never fit.  She's just an odd fit.  Everything is purchased at a regional-to-them chain so we can't return anything. It's like not getting any gifts at all, most of the time.  Which would be fine, actually! 

 

They ask for lists but apparently think we are lying because they don't get what is on them, ever.  It's a stupid exercise we go through every year. 

 

It's a huge waste of their time and money.  We can say "it's the thought that counts" but it's apparent there is no thought, really.  

[SereneHome]

We've had "mountain out of a molehill" threads before... But this one sure takes the (cup)cake around here recently.

 

I actually enjoyed reading people's opinions and descriptions on how they would handle OP's and other situations.

[SKL]

Yes, and it's not fair if one dd likes and wants the books, but the other one would have preferred something different. Why not just buy books for one dd and other little things for the other dd?

 

What makes you so sure there are other little things that would work better for our situation?

 

Why is a parent not allowed to decide what to wrap up and put under the Christmas tree?

 

Our family tradition includes wrapping up stuff the receiver might not consider a big bonus.  Lots of families do that.  I guess my kids are going to move out at 18 and never speak to me again because not all their Christmas presents were fabulous.  :/

 

[Catwoman]

I actually enjoyed reading people's opinions and descriptions on how they would handle OP's and other situations.

I thought this would have been more of a fun thread, where people shared cute stories about things their kids said about their gifts, but then it took a very ugly and -- to me, at least -- unexpected turn, and people talked about how they would punish their children on Christmas.

 

That took the fun out of the thread for me. I felt so sorry for their children. :(

[Catwoman]

Well I don't really care whether you think it is acceptable for me to wrap these things and put them under the tree.  It's what I do.  Period.

 

It's our family's tradition and it suited me fine as a kid.

 

You don't know my kids.  If you did, you would know that one of my kids has all sorts of "wants" like an average kid, and the other one does not.  She will ask for one or two small things for Christmas.  She will usually get everything she asked for (as long as it's not "a dog," etc.).  Then she will notice what her sister got, and compare.  If she has 2 little things to open and spends the next 20 minutes watching her sister tear into her gifts, she will be upset, regardless of the fact that she actually got everything she asked for.

 

I could buy her 20 gifts of cosmetics and candy and she'd probably be happy, but that wouldn't be the right thing either.  At some point I get to consider what is good for my kid.

  

What makes you so sure there are other little things that would work better for our situation?

Why is a parent not allowed to decide what to wrap up and put under the Christmas tree?

 

Our family tradition includes wrapping up stuff the receiver might not consider a big bonus.  Lots of families do that.  I guess my kids are going to move out at 18 and never speak to me again because not all their Christmas presents were fabulous.  :/

 

Wow. You seem to be getting kind of aggressive about this.

[Corraleno]

But why bother buying gifts if you're not concerned about getting your kids things they will like? 

 

Well apparently for some people gift-giving is a good way to prepare children for all the other disappointments they will experience in life.  

[maize]

Very simply: If a child isn't allowed to express frustration or disappointment in his own home without being punished for it, it is unethical to knowingly place the child in that position when he may not yet have the necessary skills to avoid punishment. 

 

It's a simple answer to your question in bold because your question was surrounded by a very simplified summary. You're simplifying it for whatever reason. For example, no one has suggested intent any differently from the OP. Such a summary isn't helpful or cooperative, it's condescending.

 

For my part, I think it's unethical because if you were to replace the child in this scenario with another adult, I think you'd get a different response in general:

 

"If a wife isn't allowed to express frustration or disappointment in her own home without being punished for it, it is unethical for her husband to knowingly place her in that position when she may not have the resources to avoid punishment."

 

"If a civilian isn't allowed to express frustration or disappointment in his government without being punished for it, it is unethical for the law to knowingly place him in that position when he does not have the resources to avoid punishment."

 

For my part, I don't think the ethics change because a child is dependent upon the parent and generally naturally disposed to being compliant and supportive of the parent. If anything, I think that's taking advantage of their natural vulnerabilities. And I damn well don't accept that "in authority over" ... stuff that functions as justification for what otherwise amounts to "might makes right" behavior. 

 

That's not to say I think a child should not be expected to learn appropriate social skills (like knowing how to bite his tongue or be polite even when disappointed). But then, no one here suggested such a thing. For me, it's the idea of using punishment to condition a child to not express negative feelings when placed in a situation that could not avoid it that strikes me as being inappropriate. And so unkind. And immature. And frankly, it suggests neediness to me.

 

Please note, I'm talking about the general idea, not the OP specifically. 

 

Here's a thought sparked by your post albeto:

 

While I tend to agree that it is both unethical and unkind to punish a child for an honest reaction, it may be equally unethical to not address the inappropriate social behavior and teach better social skills. Neglecting to do so could have serious negative consequences for the child at some point in the future.

 

Ah, parenting...

 

 

[SKL]

Speaking of parental examples, when a little kid gives you a present you don't actually want, how do you respond?  Do you say "ugh, another purple chicken"?  Or "thanks, but you should know I don't like purple chickens / I have more than enough of your artwork, so can you please not make me any more"?  I think most of us would tend to model gracious receiving.  Why?  Because that is an important part of being a human being.  Rejecting a well-intended gift would be called heartless.

 

Even with pet cats who bring in dead (or live) mice, most people won't act like they reject the sentiment.

[SereneHome]

I thought this would have been more of a fun thread, where people shared cute stories about things their kids said about their gifts, but then it took a very ugly and -- to me, at least -- unexpected turn, and people talked about how they would punish their children on Christmas.

 

That took the fun out of the thread for me. I felt so sorry for their children. :(

 

OK, here is the cute (well, at least to me :) ) story, not a Christmas one though.

 

During Hanukah time this year my kids felt left out of gift-giving bc they didn't "buy" anyone any gifts.   So, they went around the house and wrapped (in a real wrapping paper) all kinds of things that they found.  They then gave it to each other and to me and  my husband.  Each kid was absolutely delighted with their presents and thanked his brothers. 

[Joker]

Here's a thought sparked by your post albeto:

 

While I tend to agree that it is both unethical and unkind to punish a child for an honest reaction, it may be equally unethical to not address the inappropriate social behavior and teach better social skills. Neglecting to do so could have serious negative consequences for the child at some point in the future.

 

Ah, parenting...

I posted earlier that I have home video of my siblings and I doing the exact same thing as the OP's son. My family laughed and didn't discuss it with us at all. We've had zero negative consequences as a result. I've seen zero negative consequences allowing it with my own dds. None of us have ever acted that way with those outside of family. I don't think every little thing needs to be addressed, especially if they happen at certain times and with only with family. Edited December 29, 2015 by Joker

[Catwoman]

OK, here is the cute (well, at least to me :) ) story, not a Christmas one though.

 

During Hanukah time this year my kids felt left out of gift-giving bc they didn't "buy" anyone any gifts. So, they went around the house and wrapped (in a real wrapping paper) all kinds of things that they found. They then gave it to each other and to me and my husband. Each kid was absolutely delighted with their presents and thanked his brothers.

That's so cute!!! :001_wub:

[Guest]

Well that is debatable. Don't most of us honor our kids' wishes to do more reading, study more science, accelerated math, learn a specific instrument or language, etc? Just because they don't write it on a list doesn't mean we don't consider our kids' desires/requests when we decide what they are going to do as far as schooling.

 

And also it depends on what you mean by "wishlist." To me a Christmas wish list is a communication to parents (or Santa) about what a child likes. In my world, it isn't a list of specifications that must be followed precisely in order to produce a successful Christmas. In my world, there are usually things on the list that are not received, and things not on the list that are received. Also in my world, there is no expectation that the parent / Santa give only delightful gifts. That expectation is set early on by not worrying "what if my kid doesn't want ___" when doing Christmas shopping for littles. Kids learn that they can dislike a gift, quietly set it aside, and not be haunted by it. So there is no good reason to punish the parents for getting a dumb gift. I really don't see what the wish list has to do with it. Is a wish list a contract at some people's homes?

Even though the cupcake is dead, I'm coming back to beat it.

 

I don't view my children's wish lists as demands on a ransom note that had better be met. Also, I have not so far had a kid put a "no ____________" item on their wish list. My kids will get some things they wished for, but probably not all, and they will get a couple of things I chose for them because I think they would like it, or they need it, or it might be a combination of want/need. (They need snowboots, but these are new, not handme downs or used.)

 

That said, it is my delight to give them things they want and need at a much higher proportion than things they simply need in a utilitarian way. Most often, I would much rather casually give them the things they need without making a "gift" out of it. My son needs uniform pants right now for school, but I didn't buy them and wrap them up for Christmas. Had I done so, he might pause awkwardly when unwrapping them, but he would still say thanks. Still, this is not what I want to happen. I want my kids to be very happy with their gifts. So, no, I'm not going to play a gift-giving ocassion to my advantage and give him uniform pants that he bloody well knows he would have to have anyway.

 

Having been the recipient of a large number of embarrasing, inadequate, awful and inappropriate gifts all my life, I am very, very committed to giving my kids (everyone, actually) gifts that I know they want and will almost certainly be delightful to the recipient. If I had gotten a head-up about an anti-wish from my kids, I would surely honor it and not give them clothes. If I found a shirt that was hilarious, awesome or totally perfect for my kid, but they had said no clothes, I would get it and give it under different circumstances.

[SereneHome]

Speaking of parental examples, when a little kid gives you a present you don't actually want, how do you respond?  Do you say "ugh, another purple chicken"?  Or "thanks, but you should know I don't like purple chickens / I have more than enough of your artwork, so can you please not make me any more"?  I think most of us would tend to model gracious receiving.  Why?  Because that is an important part of being a human being.  Rejecting a well-intended gift would be called heartless.

 

Even with pet cats who bring in dead (or live) mice, most people won't act like they reject the sentiment.

 

I can't remember who it was (still learning posters) but I was called a harsh parent when I said I wouldn't replace a broken toy.

 

But OMG I would probably bite my tongue to the point of bleeding before I said to my kid that I don't want any of his artwork bc I have enough.  And believe you me - from 3 little kids - I have enough!!!!  And not only I have enough, many of them are identical.

 

[marbel]

Here's a cute (to me, anyway) story for ya, Catwoman!

 

My kids used to get a lot of Playmobil for gift occasions when they were little.  They loved it - still do, really.  Now my son is a volunteer firefighter so my daughter bought him a little Playmobil set to put in his stocking.  Just a firefighter and hydrant, but very cute.  (She got him something else too, a little more adult, but I've forgotten what it was.)

 

She already had it when he and I went out shopping for his gift to her.  He was having trouble figuring out what to get and said "it was so much easier when we were little and would just each other Playmobil!"  I managed to keep a straight face.

 

He got her some art supplies. 

 

Everyone was happy, but he loved his new Playmobil! 

 

 

[SKL]

But why bother buying gifts if you're not concerned about getting your kids things they will like? My ds is 15 and I still worry about getting him things he wants, because I want him to have a great Christmas. I figure if I'm spending the money, I might as well do my best to choose the right presents.

 

It sounds to me like you are worrying too much.  I don't know your son, but if you've led him to expect to always get only gifts that delight him, you might be setting him up for disappointment when the inevitable occurs.  Hopefully he knows how to respond if someone does get him a gift he didn't want.

 

Sure, of course we all want to choose the right presents.  Each of us has our own idea of what the right presents are for each kid.

 

I think we disagree about the point of Christmas presents.  In my family tradition, there are gifts that are "utility" as well as gifts that are pleasing.  I don't expect my kids to go head over heels about the utility gifts. 

 

But on the other hand, at least my kids have surprises at Christmas - some good, some not so thrilling.  Surprises are an important part of my Christmas tradition.  We view it as a disappointment if a kid knew everything she was going to get.  Different strokes for different folks.

Edited December 29, 2015 by SKL

[Joker]

Speaking of parental examples, when a little kid gives you a present you don't actually want, how do you respond? Do you say "ugh, another purple chicken"? Or "thanks, but you should know I don't like purple chickens / I have more than enough of your artwork, so can you please not make me any more"? I think most of us would tend to model gracious receiving. Why? Because that is an important part of being a human being. Rejecting a well-intended gift would be called heartless.

 

Even with pet cats who bring in dead (or live) mice, most people won't act like they reject the sentiment.

The gift wasn't rejected, though. He's wearing it. He just expressed a tiny bit of disappointment that it was one of his Christmas gifts.

 

Yes, I accept gifts happily from my children that I may not want or like but I'm an adult with a lot of practice. My dds haven't expressed disappointment with a gift at time of opening in a long while (even though they weren't reprimanded for doing so with only family) but they will tell me afterward. No biggie.

[SKL]

  

Wow. You seem to be getting kind of aggressive about this.

 

Defensive is the word.

 

[Catwoman]

It sounds to me like you are worrying too much. I don't know your son, but if you've led him to expect to always get only gifts that delight him, you might be setting him up for disappointment when the inevitable occurs. Hopefully he knows how to respond if someone does get him a gift he didn't want.

 

Sure, of course we all want to choose the right presents. Each of us has our own idea of what the right presents are for each kid.

 

I think we disagree about the point of Christmas presents. In my family tradition, there are gifts that are "utility" as well as gifts that are pleasing. I don't expect my kids to go head over heels about the utility gifts. But on the other hand, at least my kids have surprises at Christmas - some good, some not so thrilling. Surprises are an important part of my Christmas tradition. We view it as a disappointment if a kid knew everything she was going to get. Different strokes for different folks.

I chose the wrong word when I said I worried about it. I'm still not sure what I meant to say, but I guess the best way to explain it is to say I put quite a bit of thought into it. But sometimes I mess up. My ds is fine with it and he knows I meant well, so it's no big deal to him.

 

We don't do many utilitarian gifts, unless you count things like computer-building tools or something like that. We don't do the socks and underwear thing, but it is a running joke in our family when I go out Christmas shopping and leave ds at home, I tell him I want him to be surprised and if he sees me buying the socks and underwear, the magic of Christmas will be lost. ;)

 

Ds is all about getting surprised on Christmas so I try to never let him know what I buy for him, even when it's a top-of-the-list item that he's almost sure he will get.

 

Christmas is a big huge deal at our house and I know I obsess about it more than normal people do, so it makes sense to me when other people say they do things differently and don't make it into quite the big production I do. As long as all of our families are happy, that's all that matters, right? :)

[Guest]

Speaking of parental examples, when a little kid gives you a present you don't actually want, how do you respond? Do you say "ugh, another purple chicken"? Or "thanks, but you should know I don't like purple chickens / I have more than enough of your artwork, so can you please not make me any more"? I think most of us would tend to model gracious receiving. Why? Because that is an important part of being a human being. Rejecting a well-intended gift would be called heartless.

 

Even with pet cats who bring in dead (or live) mice, most people won't act like they reject the sentiment.

I respond with gratitude to every gift, even if it is not what I want/need/like. I have taught my kids to do the same. My mother gives a lot of odd gifts, but I don't wish for them to behave badly because they don't understand the gift. So they have been taught to respond graciously to every gift and this is also how I always respond.

 

The important difference here is that the undesired gift was known in advance and ignored. That is the crux of the argument for me. Even for managing my mom's strange gifts, what has greatly helped over the years is to give her ideas ahead of time (Waaay ahead) so she isn't flying blind. I told her months ago some things my kids were into and it helped a lot, because her gifts to them matched the themes I had told her about. Left to her own guesses, she might very well buy a stuffed Barney doll and think vaguely she heard somewhere a lot of kids like Barney. ;) So now, I try to head her off at the pass by telling her DS is really into Ravens football or guitars or space stuff.

[Corraleno]

Speaking of parental examples, when a little kid gives you a present you don't actually want, how do you respond?  Do you say "ugh, another purple chicken"?  Or "thanks, but you should know I don't like purple chickens / I have more than enough of your artwork, so can you please not make me any more"?  I think most of us would tend to model gracious receiving.  Why?  Because that is an important part of being a human being.  Rejecting a well-intended gift would be called heartless.

 

Even with pet cats who bring in dead (or live) mice, most people won't act like they reject the sentiment.

 

Well, I can't really think of a gift my own child could give me that wouldn't seem precious to me just because he or she made it or wanted to give it to me. I have a nice collection of "blob" pottery, drawings, and home made cards full of misspelled words, all of which I cherish. I think even with something crazy (like the giant black bra someone posted that her 6 year old bought her), I would happily keep it because of what it represents.   

 

OTOH, I would be perfectly fine with it if my kids told me they didn't really want or like something I gave them; I would rather know the truth so I can return it and get something they want. I would much prefer that my kids feel they can be open and honest with me rather than requiring some expression of fake gratitude. And I appreciate them letting me know upfront what kind of gifts they would like — as well as what they don't want. I would never knowingly buy someone a "present" that I knew upfront they didn't want. IMO that is not a gift; that just seems (at best) passive-aggressive to me.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Corraleno

[Guest]

I can't remember who it was (still learning posters) but I was called a harsh parent when I said I wouldn't replace a broken toy.

 

But OMG I would probably bite my tongue to the point of bleeding before I said to my kid that I don't want any of his artwork bc I have enough. And believe you me - from 3 little kids - I have enough!!!! And not only I have enough, many of them are identical.

 

I still give my mom a ton of credit because she kept a butt-ugly, huge painting I made on the wall for years and years. Even after I was in my twenties and would say, "Mom, would you please take down that butt-ugly attempt at a stormy coast with a lighthouse painting I did when I was something-teen?" She would refuse and say it was precious to her. :)

 

Nope. All artwork at least appears at first glance to be kept for many years, though in reality, I cull many eventually and keep only the remarkable pieces. As a budding young artist, I would have been crushed to pieces if my mom had ever told me to stop drawing and making up stories on paper.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I still give my mom a ton of credit because she kept a butt-ugly, huge painting I made on the wall for years and years. Even after I was in my twenties and would say, "Mom, would you please take down that butt-ugly attempt at a stormy coast with a lighthouse painting I did when I was something-teen?" She would refuse and say it was precious to her. :)

 

Nope. All artwork at least appears at first glance to be kept for many years, though in reality, I cull many eventually and keep only the remarkable pieces. As a budding young artist, I would have been crushed to pieces if my mom had ever told me to stop drawing and making up stories on paper.

 

I believe it.  I have framed some of my kids art and it's my favorite. 

[SKL]

The important difference here is that the undesired gift was known in advance and ignored. That is the crux of the argument for me. Even for managing my mom's strange gifts, what has greatly helped over the years is to give her ideas ahead of time (Waaay ahead) so she isn't flying blind. I told her months ago some things my kids were into and it helped a lot, because her gifts to them matched the themes I had told her about. Left to her own guesses, she might very well buy a stuffed Barney doll and think vaguely she heard somewhere a lot of kids like Barney. ;) So now, I try to head her off at the pass by telling her DS is really into Ravens football or guitars or space stuff.

 

But so what?  If that was his only gift, I could see all this "you disrespected him" talk, but it was just an extra gift on top of all the ones he did want.  Obviously this isn't about her not liking or knowing or caring about her son etc.  She just decided to put one more thing under the tree.

[amy g.]

If my child said that she never wanted to eat another avocado again, I'd be fine with that. If she said that she never wanted another vegetable, I'd problem solve with her about what exactly she doesn't like. Is it the texture, the seasoning, how I am cooking them?

 

If she said she never wanted to do another Saxon math lesson, I'd agree with her. If she said she never wanted to do math again, I'd help her figure out if she would prefer an online course, or more hands on. Maybe she just needs another tutor.

 

I would never say, well, I'm big and you're small, shut up and do your math.

 

My family is a team. We work together. We can't work well if we don't tell the truth and if we don't respect each other for telling the truth.

 

When my youngest opened her present from her aunt. My sister wanted to know "Do you like it?" Miss Happy said, "Well, I don't DIS like it." We laughed about that all week and kept saying it to each other at unlikely moments.

 

I could have told her that isn't appropriate. You must say yes and thank you. But that really wasn't why my sister was asking. She really wants to know this little person and if this present misses the mark, she wants to know why.

 

I'm not worried that she is going to become a selfish, shunned, lonely person. I have grown children who are known not just for their good manners but also for their compassion.

 

I know that the way I parent will always be in the minority, but I believe that the child who grows up to be respectful is the child who was respected.

[SKL]

Another thing I do is give my kids stuff they may not want now, but will probably use before their next Christmas.  (Of course as they get older, they change less throughout the year, but they still change some.)  For example, I have bought things they will "grow into," which isn't a thrill at the time.  I prefer not to buy stuff all through the year.  Really, I don't think my kids are scarred.  Even if they got socks and underwear, I don't think they'd run away and join the circus, assuming those were not their only gifts.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I would never say, well, I'm big and you're small, shut up and do your math.

 

 

Well, and that doesn't work anyway.

 

:laugh:

[Guest]

But so what? If that was his only gift, I could see all this "you disrespected him" talk, but it was just an extra gift on top of all the ones he did want. Obviously this isn't about her not liking or knowing or caring about her son etc. She just decided to put one more thing under the tree.

Right, but then there is no need to get a consequence for gift-dissing behaviour.

[Tsuga]

I think you are comparing apples and oranges here. She didn't give him groceries. She gave him a shirt ... one she thought he would like. I don't think of that as a common item. I go to the grocery store several times a week. I go to stores that sell shirts maybe 4 times a year. So that is not ordinary. My kids weren't big on clothes, but they at least weren't rude when I gave them clothing items that they needed but weren't particularly excited about. They said thanks (for the thought) and put it aside.

 

By the time my kids were 5, they had learned appropriate gift behavior. You don't have to ooh and aah over something that doesn't thrill you, but you don't treat the gift giver rudely. Period. Just like you don't treat the cook rudely if you don't care for what is being served. Sure they made mistakes. And we reminded them with grace on how to do better.

 

:iagree:

 

There is a difference between expressing frustration and being rude to other people. I do my best not rude to my husband when I am upset with him. I try my darndest not to be rude to my kids when I am frustrated with them. And when I fail, I recognize that I was in the wrong for not treating them appropriately and apologize. And those moments of frustration are not related to gift-giving, but to things that are reasonably expected (chores, schoolwork, being treated like a human being, etc.) I think I am entitled to family members who treat me with the same respect I give them.

 

But, I have a problem with the idea that it is appropriate to be frustrated with a gift and to be rude to the giver. Gifts are not entitlements. If someone has the right to be frustrated over a gift, that sounds like an entitlement. The only appropriate response to a gift is "thank you." Even if it is something you detest. The fact that someone cared enough about you to give you a gift worthy of thanks, no matter what the content (unless, of course, it was meant to be something mean.) Even my "on the spectrum" kid learned that before 10 years old. I don't think the rudeness expressed here was necessarily a punishable offense, but a gentle reminder of appropriateness and thankfulness is appropriate here (whether that was a do-over or a quiet reminder on the side.) But, then again, growing up, I remember many Christmases and birthdays where there was barely any money for necessities, let alone wizz-bang-wow toys. I want my kids to understand how fortunate they are, that there are many families who would love to be able to have presents to open on a tree rather than going to the food bank hoping to have something special to eat that day.

What she said.

 

Exactly and well put.

[SKL]

Right, but then there is no need to get a consequence for gift-dissing behaviour.

 

I am in the "let it go" camp re the OP, but I still think "gift-dissing behavior" (in front of the giver) is always wrong, unless the giver has seriously and intentionally offended.

 

[Reefgazer]

This is our family - I'm not running a restaurant and I'm not a short order cook. Everyone at the table can eat what is there, or not. I don't punish for not eating something, but I'm not cooking anything else either.

 

We live the "you get what you get and don't throw a fit" mentality. As a family we have a few things we just don't like, but in general we eat what was made for dinner. I don't cater, my house is not a restaurant :)

[albeto.]

The important difference here is that the undesired gift was known in advance and ignored.

 

But so what? 

 

For those who think respect and manners are of paramount importance, it's interesting to hear rationalizations for how this apparently is expected to exist in one direction. That's what.

 

Edited December 30, 2015 by albeto.

[Joker]

I don't cook anything else either but my dds are more than welcome to eat something other than what I made. They've made pb&j, eggs, Mac n cheese, frozen pizza, etc. Sometimes they just eat salad as we usually always have that. I don't force them to try foods and I don't make them eat what I serve or get nothing. They're both great eaters now as teens without all that fuss. They still have things they don't eat (oldest hasn't had pork in ten years) and it's no big deal.

[Reefgazer]

Yup, cannot believe it. All because I wanted to know if my kid's rude behavior needed to be acknowledged.

We've had "mountain out of a molehill" threads before... But this one sure takes the (cup)cake around here recently.

[albeto.]

Here's a thought sparked by your post albeto:

 

While I tend to agree that it is both unethical and unkind to punish a child for an honest reaction, it may be equally unethical to not address the inappropriate social behavior and teach better social skills. Neglecting to do so could have serious negative consequences for the child at some point in the future.

 

Ah, parenting...

 

Sure, but no one here is advocating not addressing the inappropriate social behavior, or refusing to teach better social skills. 

 

The difference of opinion doesn't revolve around whether or not to modify the behavior, it's in how to modify the behavior. 

[Upennmama]

I honestly don't understand this way of thinking. Kids* are not entitled to clothing? That is not a basic need?

 

I'm not talking about special, desirable clothing, like a special graphic tee or something like that. But basic clothing that they need anyway - they are not entitled to that?

 

*living at home, completely dependent upon their parents. College kids and grown, up-and-out adult children are different.

 

ETA: Someone mentioned oranges. I can see a kid not being excited about an orange as a gift, unless oranges were a rare treat. Most people I know have fruit (sometimes oranges, sometimes not) available in their homes all the time, ready for their kids to take. So something like that would not seem like a treat, and certainly not a gift.

i like to cultivate a sense in both myself and my children of thankfulness and gratitude, even for things others should do or give us. As part of that I thank my husband for taking out the trash, for working hard at his job, and for doing lots of other things, though of course I expect them and they are his responsibilities. I have never asked my kids to thank me for providing them with "basics" but they all thZnk me for making dinner, buying them socks, cleaning, etc. it's not like I even expect them to do that, but I think they have learned thankfulness as a core value and we express gratitude to each other daily.

[marbel]

We've had "mountain out of a molehill" threads before... But this one sure takes the (cup)cake around here recently.

 

I think it turned into a really interesting discussion.  I think it's fascinating that there are so many different responses and that in some cases we seem to be talking past each other.  As Jean said, the thread is really about parenting styles.  It's well beyond the OP, which happens often here. 

[Reefgazer]

Our kids get book gifts for nearly every occasion. Sometimes theme or topics are hits and sometimes they are misses, even though I try for a hit each time. But again, there's that "you won't know if you like it until you try it" principle. It's really the same as the shirt situation; a rather common item that could go either way.

 

 

 

quote name="Corraleno" post="6756066" timestamp="1451427481"]

 

My kids get books as Christmas presents every year, but they are generally special books. I wouldn't give them the sort of plain old paperbacks that I would normally get them whenever they want, or books I expect them to read for school. Books I've given as presents include things like a vintage copy of an expensive Classical Greek dictionary, a large hardcover academic volume on world languages, and a book on building Greek linen-&-leather armor. This year I gave DS a signed copy of a book on invented languages written by the linguist who invented Dothraki for Game of Thrones. DD got the hardcover of Rick Riordan's new book, along with a companion guide to Norse mythology.

 

I used to give my late FIL a big stack of historical fiction and political thrillers every Christmas. The books themselves were nothing special or expensive; in that case the "gift" part was the time and effort I put into finding things I knew he would love. He was an avid reader but had limited mobility and couldn't get to bookstores to look around himself.

 

OTOH, I would never give books as presents to anyone who specifically requested "no books."

[Joker]

My dds thank me for cooking and buying them clothes. We went shopping today and this happened every single time we checked out. They also don't let me carry bags around the mall or out of the grocery store and into the house. When they see me cleaning, they get up to help (mostly without being asked).

 

They do these things but are allowed to say what they do and do not want as gifts. They do these things but have been allowed to express disappointment with gifts in front of family. They do these things but don't have to eat what I make for dinner. There are so many ways to parent and many of them lead to the same desirable result.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Joker

[SKL]

I would never knowingly buy someone a "present" that I knew upfront they didn't want. IMO that is not a gift; that just seems (at best) passive-aggressive to me.

 

We're not talking about things the person absolutely does not want, just that they don't want part of their imagined Christmas gift quota being used up on that.  In the case of clothes or books that were carefully chosen for our individual children, these may be things we know they will probably "like," though they are not fabulous gifts for Christmas morning.  It's not like we're giving them stuff they hate just to spite them.

 

I guess I don't like the idea of a negative / limitation like "no clothes" on a list from my 11yo child.  I would probably chuckle as it's kind of amusing, but I would not feel the need to "honor" it and I would consider it a fail if he seriously had that expectation.

 

And on the topic of "what is a gift," I thought it was something given without obligation or expectation.  Apparently there are lots of obligations and expectations attached to our kids' Christmas, so maybe we shouldn't call any of the presents "gifts."

[Reefgazer]

I really don't think this thread is mean spirited. People just have strong opinions on the matter.

 

I thought this would have been more of a fun thread, where people shared cute stories about things their kids said about their gifts, but then it took a very ugly and -- to me, at least -- unexpected turn, and people talked about how they would punish their children on Christmas.

 

That took the fun out of the thread for me. I felt so sorry for their children. :(

[HomeAgain]

It wasn't just the buying of something specifically asked NOT to get, but the expectation of perfect response afterwards.

 

If I told my DH, no clothing, & he then bought me clothing for xmas - even if I liked it - I would probably say "thank you" (because I'm an adult) but I wouldn't really mean I was glad to get it & I'd follow it up with "but I specifically asked not to get clothing".  I'd feel like he didn't hear me.  I would then say something like "I love you dearly, but I wish you had really listened to what I was asking for.  I assume you meant well, but if you didn't want to know what I wanted, you shouldn't have asked."  Kids probably don't have that kind of skill, so the "ugh, clothing" pretty much sums it up.

 

As to the bolded, I agree & I think it applies to parents as well.  I think the OP's DS did go with the flow.  He said "ugh, clothes" - he didn't stomp off in a snit.  The OP shouldn't be afraid of surprising her kids but she could have more appropriate expectations & learn to have fun with it instead of being offended that the specifically-NOT-asked-for gift wasn't appreciated in the moment.  Kids also shouldn't be afraid of being honest with their parents. 

 

It is a teaching moment, nothing more.

 

My teen got two off the wall gifts this year.  The first was a hoodie - soft, warm, and the right color for his uniform requirements.  Not so bad, right?  We'd just had an exasperated moment two weeks before Christmas where I got tired of him going out of the house in short sleeves and nagged him with the question of didn't he have a jacket that fit?  Yes, EIGHT of them!  I'd been handing down/buying him hoodies every time I saw him cold and then would forget.  Oops. :o   This was right after I ordered the Christmas one, too. He opened that 9th one on Christmas day and we all burst out laughing.

Second gift was in a gag card holder from the Catch & Cook Cafe: A Rustic Dining Experience.  It was a gift card from his grandparents.  He didn't know.  He thought the holder was genuine and thought grandpa picked it out for him.  He smiled, made a note to say thank you, and set it aside.

 

We used previous opportunities as teaching moments.  No flying off the handle for him being ungrateful, no beating manners into him or taking his things because he didn't "appreciate what he has".  Teaching moment.  Just like we teach how to taste everything the chef prepares and show appreciation for the cooking, if not the meal (I'll tell you, the night of pumpkin curry soup made me quite proud! :D )  How to handle intentions, if not the actual favor/gift.

 

Honesty has its moments, but teaching grace is something that has its moments, too.  This is an opportunity to teach grace, not appreciate honesty.

[Guest]

i like to cultivate a sense in both myself and my children of thankfulness and gratitude, even for things others should do or give us. As part of that I thank my husband for taking out the trash, for working hard at his job, and for doing lots of other things, though of course I expect them and they are his responsibilities. I have never asked my kids to thank me for providing them with "basics" but they all thZnk me for making dinner, buying them socks, cleaning, etc. it's not like I even expect them to do that, but I think they have learned thankfulness as a core value and we express gratitude to each other daily.

I agree with this. Nevertheless, I am not making them stewed tomatoes for dinner just to make them suffer through something not desired so they can practice being thankful, KWIM?

[teachermom2834]

Hmm...as a child I was never allowed to express disappointment and would have been in big trouble to react the way ds of OP did. And now I sit here remembering times in my adult life I was less than gracious when given a gift that was way off what was requested. So all that discipline in childhood didn't produce a well mannered adult anyway :(

[8circles]

Well that is debatable.  Don't most of us honor our kids' wishes to do more reading, study more science, accelerated math, learn a specific instrument or language, etc?  Just because they don't write it on a list doesn't mean we don't consider our kids' desires/requests when we decide what they are going to do as far as schooling.

 

And also it depends on what you mean by "wishlist."  To me a Christmas wish list is a communication to parents (or Santa) about what a child likes.  In my world, it isn't a list of specifications that must be followed precisely in order to produce a successful Christmas.  In my world, there are usually things on the list that are not received, and things not on the list that are received.  Also in my world, there is no expectation that the parent / Santa give only delightful gifts.  That expectation is set early on by not worrying "what if my kid doesn't want ___" when doing Christmas shopping for littles.  Kids learn that they can dislike a gift, quietly set it aside, and not be haunted by it.  So there is no good reason to punish the parents for getting a dumb gift.  I really don't see what the wish list has to do with it.  Is a wish list a contract at some people's homes?

 

In the context of this discussion, this doesn't make any sense.

 

You cannot compare a child not wanting to do math to somebody requesting no clothes for xmas.  Well, I guess you can because you did but it makes no sense.  I'll choc it up to different strokes for different folks because in my world this truly makes no sense.  If it does in your world, we'll agree to disagree.  & I do believe that a *gift* should delight the receiver. 

Edited December 30, 2015 by 8circles

[albeto.]

It's a tradition, and one with humor attached.

 

Dh grew up with xmas underwear. When I came into the family and spent the holidays with his family, his siblings, in their 30's and 40's would announce and hold up their xmas underwear with excitement as the grandkids (our kids and their cousins) would look on with interest. I was so confused that first year.

 

:laugh:

[LucyStoner]

My sons would not and have not been punished for less than positive reactions to gifts. I did however notice that when we got a little more judicious with our overall level of gift giving (we used to go all out like nobody's business) that my older son's reactions to gifts became much more socially normative.

 

Some people might interpret this as more gifts = spoiled, less gifts = more grateful. But I actually don't think that is it at all.

 

I think that big Christmases seriously overwhelmed him and less stuff meant a more low key, relaxed day with less stress. And less stress = easier to remember your manners. More so if you are on the spectrum and your manners are harder to come by.

 

The same thing for birthday parties- opening the gifts at a big party was just too much for my older son. So it wasn't really a shock when, at 5, on unwrapping a super hero gone bad action figure he shrieked and announced, really more screamed, it was a very bad gift. So we started opening his gifts after the party, a few at a time and then eventually shrunk his party way down in size.

 

They do appreciate the need and wear gifts we do. Positive, if not ecstatic comments, were made this year. Wool hiking socks- neat, we are going to have fun hiking this year. Towels in their assigned household color- now I won't have to wonder whose used towel it is. Water bottle in assigned household color- oh these one don't leak. I don't expect them to be as thrilled with towels as with tablets or new books they really wanted and if they really disliked something, we'd exchange it. One year we returned a very pricey bedding set and let him pick toys. He prefered to keep his old bedding set and he wasn't happy with the new one and it was our double income one kid days so that bedding set was from Land of Nod and cost $$$.

 

I really worried about (read: overthought this) when my older son was 5. I am glad I let go of those unrealistic expectations.