Would you talk to the parent? How would you frame the issue? NOT a JAWM!

[HomeAgain]

Her mom seems very nice and sensible, but I don't know her well at all. She messaged me about possibly carpooling when she found out there were other homeschoolers going there. The first day we all went in her car, so I talked to her for a couple of hours. I rather like her, but again, I don't know her well. Since then she took DD 4 times, and I took her DD twice.

 

I think I'll try to be much more direct with the kid.

 

A big part of my parenting, when the kids were little, is not to be overly direct. I trained myself not to say "Share your toys, please," but to say "It seems to be that little Bobby is sad that he hadn't had his turn for a while." I guess that was the fad in the attachment parenting / gentle discipline circles. I think it worked really well for my kids. I tend to say "I don't like this" instead of "Stop this" (well mostly. I guess in an emegency I wouldn't hesitate to say to stop something.)

 

But I see that this child needs me to be much more direct.

 

 

I have noticed that it is easier on myself when I lay out the expectations firmly, and then after the kid catches on to lighten back up.  Some just need that clue-by-four to knock them on their head before they heed the caution signs.  I forgot this recently when I took over a class.  Some of the children were absolutely wild!  I had no desire to go back and work with them.  After replaying the day in my head, though, I came to a different conclusion that we just needed to be better acquainted with one another. ;)  Second day, I had the children come up with a list of class expectations (all positive "do this" statements), and then pulled out my cell phone and a list of numbers.  I explained to them that this list were all their parents, and if we had problems with behavior I would be glad to pull it out, dial their parent's number, and hand the phone over so the child could tell them why they were having to leave class.  I put my phone next to that list every class now, and I'm much more vigilant at seeing the warning signs from the children more likely to go into destructo-mode so we can nip it in the bud.  It took 2 classes before they were all where they should be and I could relax a bit more, joke around with them, frame my expectations kinder, and still have them settle into the routine as needed.

[38carrots]

I think I pm'd every inquiring mind about the activity. If I missed you, and you absolutely must know, don't hesitate to pm me. :coolgleamA:

[38carrots]

I'm a laid back parent and we are very playful with our kids.

I could describe my ds(10) and a "poorly trained puppy". Lol

And yet, he would NEVER do the things you described.

 

:lol: I'm actually fairly laid back myself, and yes, my 11 yo in particular can be described as a poorly trained puppy. (I'm not that laid back when I need to get home on time, though lol).

 

Never say never, but in many varied social situations, supervised by me and when left with others, he's never done anything remotely like this girl.

[fairfarmhand]

 

A big part of my parenting, when the kids were little, is not to be overly direct. I trained myself not to say "Share your toys, please," but to say "It seems to be that little Bobby is sad that he hadn't had his turn for a while." I guess that was the fad in the attachment parenting / gentle discipline circles. I think it worked really well for my kids. I tend to say "I don't like this" instead of "Stop this" (well mostly. I guess in an emegency I wouldn't hesitate to say to stop something.)

 

But I see that this child needs me to be much more direct.

 

 

Yes. This is it.

 

My dd thrives on direct. If I said, "Do you mind helping me with this?" She interpreted it as having a choice. Sometimes I WAS giving her a choice while others I really meant "Get up and help."

 

So I had to train myself (being a more gentle personality like yours) to say exactly what I meant. "In the next five minutes, I need you to do a and b for me."

 

She did much better. I did much better. Some kids don't get the nuances of what other people say vs, what they actually mean.

 

So for going to the car, I can say "We will be leaving in three minutes." I'd go to the car and if she wanted to slow walk for 2.5 minutes and RUN like the dickens for the last thirty seconds, then that's fine.

[Annie G]

Is it an active activity? Maybe the mom wants the kids there more than the kid wants to be there. So perhaps if you're firm with the kid and set some boundaries and they don't pan out, you can tell the mom she might want to send some schoolwork with dd because she has a lot of downtime at the activity. 

 

Like, if it's gymnastics or martial arts, maybe the mom wants the kid there to work off some energy. But if the kid doesn't want to be there she's going to waste time and come home even more wound up. 

 

Either way, I feel for you. It would be nice to have a carpool since it's a frequent activity but if it's more trouble than it's worth...ugh. 

[Garga]

Yes. This is it.

 

My dd thrives on direct. If I said, "Do you mind helping me with this?" She interpreted it as having a choice. Sometimes I WAS giving her a choice while others I really meant "Get up and help."

 

So I had to train myself (being a more gentle personality like yours) to say exactly what I meant. "In the next five minutes, I need you to do a and b for me."

 

She did much better. I did much better. Some kids don't get the nuances of what other people say vs, what they actually mean.

 

So for going to the car, I can say "We will be leaving in three minutes." I'd go to the car and if she wanted to slow walk for 2.5 minutes and RUN like the dickens for the last thirty seconds, then that's fine.

I watched this happen at the orthodontists office the other week.

 

The entire office is open. We all see each other. There are 4 chairs lined up for the patients.

 

There was a girl there, probably high school aged, working. She was cleaning some tools. One of the adult workers there said, "You wanna help me take this picture?" (they take pictures of the kids before and after braces.) Then the adult walked away.

 

The girl who was cleaning just sort of looked at the adult and kept cleaning the tools.

 

Later the adult came back looking a little confused and said, "Let's go. Time for the picture." The tool cleaning girl looked a little bemused and followed.

 

My son and I discussed it, "If Adult wanted Girl to help take the picture she needed to say, 'Help me take the picture.' By asking if she 'wanted to help' take the picture made it seem like a choice." I told him, "When you get a job, you'll have to figure out people like this. Hopefully you'll get a boss who tells you what s/he wants, but if not, be prepared! When the person higher up asks if you want to do something, they probably mean "do it."

Edited December 24, 2015 by Garga

[myfunnybunch]

The behavior is slightly controlling. She is trying to set the tone that she is in charge of you. She is not playful IMO. She is not evil. She is a kid who is testing limits, and you are unsure how to make kind limits because you are not comfortable with the situation.

 

This, right here.

 

Particularly as she's described her own self as "rude." She's choosing rude behavior to see how you will react. She's testing to see where the boundaries are.

 

I have volunteered with groups of elementary children for years, and there are often one or two kids like this in the group. My experience is that it takes time, effort, and energy to develop the kind of relationship with the child that tells them a) that they can trust that I will establish and enforce clear boundaries, respectfully and firmly, every single time; and b ) that they can trust that I still like them, believe that they are capable, and see what's good in them.

 

I say things like, "We don't push. We keep our bodies to ourselves. I know you know that," and "I know that you know how to respond quickly to a direction. It's time to go. Please show me that you can get in the car quickly." And "Wow, today you got in the car really quickly. Well done. Keep it up." Eventually, with most kids, most of the time, a shake of the head is enough of a reminder to shape up, or a thumbs up is a reminder that they've done what's expected quickly and well. :)

 

If I approached the mom for input, it would probably sound like, "We're having a hard time leaving on time because Suzie-Q is dawdling when it's time to go. What works for you? I'd love to give it a try." You're problem-solving with the mom instead of blaming the kid. (Which, to your credit, I see you trying really hard not to do. You sound like you're really trying to be objective and give her the benefit of the doubt, while acknowledging how her behavior affects you and your dd. :) )

 

Whether it's worth it to invest that kind of energy is really up to you. Honestly, I find I have a soft spot for the kids that struggle with these kinds of issues, because if I can gain their trust, they are really responsive. It must really stink always being the "difficult kid," and they seem to respond so openly to having someone see their best, and see them trying, in addition to their challenges. It's just getting them to show you that side that takes time, effort, energy.

[Carol in Cal.]

You need, IMO, to be very direct with this kid, but in a kind, non-emotional way.

I would think of her as a toddler for about two weeks, and be very directive.

 

If it didn't work, I would tell the parent, I'm sorry, but your daughter doesn't listen to me and I don't feel comfortable being responsible for her as it is sometimes a safety concern.  I can't continue with this.  She is a great kid but I cannot take responsibility for her.  And that would be that.

[Jennifer132]

My personal opinion, kids are used to a certain pattern of behavior being acceptable. They don't know another way unless taught. It doesn't necessarily mean she is naughty...for instance, we have a group of friends we adore, but the children are accustomed to rough, loud indoor play. It can be quite taxing because we don't do that in our home. But they're not being naughty; they're just doing what they are used to. I wouldn't hesitate to tell the girl directly "don't do that", "stop" or "we aren't going to play like that" and why. You may not be in charge of her, but if she is doing annoying things, you have the right to tell her to stop.

[Alicia64]

I wouldn't talk to the mom. I would directly tell the girl to stop when she's doing something she shouldn't be doing, like pushing. I would also start the leaving process earlier so that you don't have to hurry.

 

Yikes. I wouldn't tolerate any of that behavior. That's awful!

 

I would actually do both: tell the girl to stop. And talk to the mom.

 

Alley

[wintermom]

It sounds like your dd is already being clear and direct with her expectations and this girl is being pretty rude back. If you are annoyed by this, it sure looks like your dd is double annoyed, and for good reason. That's going to impact her enjoyment of this activity. I'd drop the car pool asap for the sake of you and your dd's peace of mind. 

[poppy]

What an eye opening thread! It would never occur to me that there would be adults who would not tell a 10 year old "stop pushing me. Right now". 

 

My daughter pushes boundaries like that.  She is more "I am going to hug you whether you want it or not!" than "I'm rude" but the overall effect is the same.   ADHD, mood disorder, temperament, social anxiety, immaturity all come into play.... which doesn't really matter much to the person she is being obnoxious too (trust me, we are working on it, but it's a long process).

 

I agree with all the advice above.  Lots of 10 year olds are much better behaved; this one is acting like a little kid.  Treat her like one.

[goldberry]

 

 

2. Using the phone: Say to the child, "I'm sure your parents expect you to follow my instructions when you are with me. Do you want me to phone and check? I think your mom will probably tell you to stop doodling and get in the car when I tell you to. Do you think so?" Probably the 'threat' will be enough. If it's not, I'd call and say, "Hey, Sally, I know this is completely normal, but Suzy is checking to see what I will do if she intentionally slows down every time I ask her to do something quickly. I told her that I'd call confirm that you really do expect her to follow my instructions about car pooling when she's with me, so I'm calling mostly to show her that I really will call... Of course. Yep, totally normal kid stuff... Ok, so maybe I'll hand her the phone and she can hear it from you? Perfect."

 

 

 

Had to quote because that is brilliant!  Great idea.

[goldberry]

 

My dd thrives on direct. If I said, "Do you mind helping me with this?" She interpreted it as having a choice. Sometimes I WAS giving her a choice while others I really meant "Get up and help."

 

 

 

When DD was 6-7, she very much hurt her best friend's feelings over something like that.  She was at friend's house and after playing, friend said, "Would you like to help me clean up the room?"   DD responded quite matter-of-factly "no."

 

This got communicated to me by the mom that DD refused to help clean up.  After getting the whole story from all involved, including the friend, the above was revealed.  

 

I did work on teaching DD that you help clean up even if you are not asked, and especially when asked.  But that information did not come naturally to her!

[Catwoman]

What an eye opening thread! It would never occur to me that there would be adults who would not tell a 10 year old "stop pushing me. Right now".

:iagree:

 

It might be different if this child had serious special needs and truly wasn't aware that her behavior was rude, but this kid is doing it intentionally. There is no way I would put up with that, and I wouldn't expect my own kid to put up with her nonsense, either.

[goldberry]

So DD just texted me. The girl literally almost tripped her by running in front of her through the door, while DD was entering, carrying heavy bags. DD said, "That's not nice." The girl replied with "Ha-ha, silly DD. Haven't you learned by now that I'm rude?"

 

DD replied saying "I don't hang out with rude people." I hope she didn't sound too abrasive, but as stated, seems like a good firm response?

 

 

I really like your daughter!

[Jan in SC]

Did the child act like this when your families went together? If not, I'd tell the child that she either behaves, or her mom needs to take her. I'd be nice, but firm and tell her what is expected. I would do it in front of the mom, or at least mention to her that you need to set a few boundaries.

 

If she behaved that way with the mom present, you are probably out of luck and should decide if she bugs you enough to drive everyday.

[The Governess]

Sounds like she is testing her boundaries with you and your Dd. I have a boundary tester myself; I don't think she would ever be as rude as this child, but she needs to know the rules for a new situation. She will test to find out what they are if they aren't explicitly told to her.

 

I would lay out the rules as clearly as possible. "In our family, we respect each other's personal space. This means we ask before touching someone else's things and we don't push, hit, or run into or in front of people on purpose. When you are with us and your mom isn't here, I expect you to follow our family's rules."

 

Same thing for purposely being rude, making people wait on you, etc. I would see how she reacts to being given the rules. If she doesn't listen, I would give her a warning that next time you will talk to her mom about it. If it continues, talk to her mom, and explain that if her Dd can't be trusted to follow your rules, you think it would be better if her mom took her and supervised her herself.

[Artichoke]

. 

Edited June 12, 2017 by Artichoke

[Mommy22alyns]

I have a 10 year old, and I would be pretty mad with her if she was acting like that.  So no, not normal IMO/IME.

[Excelsior! Academy]

I have no idea idea what this secret activity is that requires 4-5 hours for  four days a week, but it must be super important to demand that level of commitment.  Most ten year olds don't have the patience or self-control for such an intense activity. Personally, I'd stop the carpool and drive each day.  Find something there to do with your time.  

 

I would assume competitive gymnastics.

[mysticmomma]

Who told you that you weren't in charge?

[Ausmumof3]

I haven't read the whole thread but I think you are going to need to tell her firmly to stop xyz behaviour immediately when it happens.

 

I know because I hate dealing with other people's kids too.

 

If the behaviour doesn't stop I'd talk to Mum and if that doesn't work I wouldn't car pool. It's inconvenient but less inconvenient than dealing with that behaviour and possibly having your daughter pick up bad habits from her.

[LMD]

Sounds like boundary pushing to me. Some kids are obnoxious like this and you sort of have to earn your authority with them iykwim? I have a couple like this and I've known some too, you need to be clear that you will not put up with it. Even if the mother/teachers don't consider you in charge of her, she does, and she's trying to figure out the relationship and power difference. Help her! Be clear!

 

If a 10 year old purposely pushed me or tripped anyone, I would tell her straight that if it happens again, we are done. That actually makes me seriously angry.

 

Eta- mine with these tendencies do not dare touch an adult! Their obnoxiousness is mainly excessive questions/sarcastic comments and the passive go-slow. Generally a couple of serious 'up with this, I will not put' boundary placing stops it, and you had better believe that I deal with it at home.

Edited December 23, 2015 by LMD

[knoxinsox]

MY 10 year old is obnoxious. My 6 year old will cry and apologize profusely if she steps on your toe by accident.  I am a "kind words, gentle touch" and "inside voice please" kind of laid back parent, but he needs me to be direct and in your face.  Literally eye to eye, with clear instructions.  "You are being rude."  You may not act this way, you will obey immediately, or have consequences."   I think he's normal but he's a curmudgeon by heritage, and there is a part of him that enjoys arguing, picking on people, being in charge, and seeing just how far he can go.  I never imagined I would have to use assertive discipline classroom techniques at home, but its what works with him.

 

So far, he has company manners, and just does this at home, but if it were my son in your carpool, I would want to know. If he didn't improve, then I would not expect to continue in a carpool.

[BooksandBoys]

OP, I haven't read all the replies, but a lot of what you describe sounds like the way my son would act in those situations. He has autism and ADHD, but is high functioning, so most people just think he's naughty when he acts out. He doesn't understand something like "I don't like poorly trained puppies." He'd need you to tell him directly, "Stop that. Do not touch my chair." Make sense? We often have to tell him several times to stop doing the thing he's doing before it registers (don't drink from my thermos) (this may be the ADHD), then, sometimes, even after it registers, he'll stick on the idea that what he's doing is ok and start arguing. And a collision course while walking, absolutely! My kiddo isn't trying to be rude, he just doesn't plan enough ahead of time to realize that he's walking into someone (motor planning challenges). My kid is amazing, kind, and wants to make people happy, but he does not understand nuance. We're working hard with the parents of some good friends develip effective communication. The mother feels she's being mean to my child to say "Stop touching me" because in her family "I'd prefer that your hand not be in contact with my body" works perfectly well. Not with ours. In our family, using more, gentler words, is confusing, so it's actually more rude to my kid to use euphemisms than to be forthright and firm. Make sense?

 

Now, none of this may apply in your situation, but if you want the car pool to work, consider starting by being very direct with this child. Be firm and say exactly what you mean. No euphemisms, no interpretation necessary. Be kind, but firm. Consider also asking the mother for something to occupy the child during the downtime. Books, toys, an iPad?

[38carrots]

I would assume competitive gymnastics.

 

It's not, but it won't let me PM you. It says there's some kind of an error.

 

[HeatherL]

I am curious now to as to what activity this is.  I was hoping it would come out by the end of the posts.

[Petrichor]

I am curious now to as to what activity this is.  I was hoping it would come out by the end of the posts.

 

Same here. 

 

Stinks that theres nothing else in the area you could spend the time doing. 

 

I have no issue calling out kids on their behavior if their parent isn't nearby and/or already talking to them about it. I actually get peeved when another adult knows my child behaved poorly (especially if my child chose to target them to annoy them specifically) and doesn't ask him to stop the behavior. If they don't say anything I will, but it means more coming from the person being annoyed. 

 

Sounds like the girl has gotten a lot of attention in the past (from others) for her rude behavior, and has taken it on as a personality trait. Maybe next time you drive (if you choose to continue dealing with this child) you could have a discussion about it - bring up a few examples of things she did that were rude, that they bothered you, and how those actions make it less likely for people to want to be with you/do nice things for you. Maybe some suggestions for things she could do that would allow people enjoy her company?

 

My oldest is 6 though, so YMMV. Though, her behavior is more of what I would expect from a 6 year old, so...

[Wheres Toto]

Okay now I'm curious too.  I was thinking gymnastics too.

 

[Tsuga]

I often tell kids, "In English, it is polite to speak in a question. Like, 'Can you please...' But it's usually not a choice. That's just a nice way to say it. So when I say, would you please clear your place, it means exactly the same as "PICK UP YOUR PLATE NOW." But gentler. Does that make sense?"

 

Now my kids know.

 

English needs a better polite voice but oh well, we all live with the ambiguity.

[My4arrows]

Personally I'd set boundaries with the child as well as the parent. The parent may not know that anything is going on. She may know her DD causes problems, didn't mention it so she doesn't taint your view of her off the bat and with you saying nothing is assuming that she is behaving and nothing needs to be addressed. I'd also be firm with the child and set the tone. I've needed to do this for many of my children's friends and after setting the tone and being firm there are very few incidents such as those you mentioned.

 

I also am curious about this activity since I thought it was gymnastics as well.

[HSMWB]

Not gymnastics . . . I am going to guess horse riding.

 

No idea about the girl, other then my kids (10 & 8) probably would not understand what you were trying to communicate with 'naughty puppy', especially if they didn't think they were trying to act like one in the first place. They would need much more direct 'please do X, not Y'.

[Guest2]

I would talk to the parent to see if she had techniques or whatever that they as a family use for transitioning her daughter to the car in a timely manner and keeping hands to one self. Be positive with the parent, but definitely get answers.

Be firm, and postive with the child. Friendly , but "remember we have a rule that you have to keep your hands to yourself no touching others or their things". Is there anyone else you could carpool with? This might get better, but i would guess there will need to be concrete rules and consequences/ praise. She puposely hurt you twice, Ive never had that happen. Wouldn't allow for it to go unchecked. Parent needs to step in and help smooth this over.

[foxbridgeacademy]

Does it seem as behavioral issues, or just normal behavior?

I think it's bordering on bad behavior (and partly just that particular age).  She's testing boundaries to see what she can get away with. I'd be firm.  I'd definitely have a talk with the mother but only after I recorded the behavior with my phone (for proof if needed that I'm not over-reacting).  

 

*I do like/adore kids, even those not related to me, but occasionally there's that one who pushes all the buttons ..... She's gotten better as she's become a teenager but man when this kid was 10 :glare: .

[Alessandra]

I'm going to guess some kind of focus/support group.