Another Duggar thread

[Moxie]

One of my "friends" is always sharing stuff from the official Dugger FB page. Today, she shared this tribute from Michelle to her daughter on her 7th birthday.

 

 

Happy 7th birthday Jordyn!

You are such a sweet ray of Sunshine! You love God and others and your prayers during family prayer time are such an encouragement!

You love to hold babies and be a helper anywhere, laundry, dishes, cleaning, organizing, playing with younger ones and helping other mommies with their little ones!!

What joy you bring to our lives! We love you sweet Jordyn! May this year be blessed with even more of God's love and joy in your life!

 

 

I'm so sad for this poor little girl. She is 7 and isn't being encouraged to do anything other than clean house and hold babies. Gross.

[Guest]

Um, I think that's reading a bit much into it. I could and have said similar things to my girls. Their main job at this age is school and helping out with their chores and siblings.

 

It was a sweet little note. But apparently they cannot say anything right. Even birthday wishes.

 

Sheeeeesh.

[Word Nerd]

nm

Edited December 18, 2015 by Word Nerd

[albeto.]

One of my "friends" is always sharing stuff from the official Dugger FB page. Today, she shared this tribute from Michelle to her daughter on her 7th birthday.

 

 

Happy 7th birthday Jordyn!

You are such a sweet ray of Sunshine! You love God and others and your prayers during family prayer time are such an encouragement!

You love to hold babies and be a helper anywhere, laundry, dishes, cleaning, organizing, playing with younger ones and helping other mommies with their little ones!!

What joy you bring to our lives! We love you sweet Jordyn! May this year be blessed with even more of God's love and joy in your life!

 

 

I'm so sad for this poor little girl. She is 7 and isn't being encouraged to do anything other than clean house and hold babies. Gross.

 

I misread a comment on these threads once. It was something about "purity-focused" life and I read it as "purity-forced" life. I see this as an example of the mechanics of slow, pervasive, subtle, insidious, manipulation. With a smile. Good cop/bad cop mentality. Elsewhere, one might consider the word, "brainwashing" to be appropriate. I agree with you. This is sad, and unethical. 

Edited December 18, 2015 by albeto.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Uh well I don't take it that way at all (and believe me I'm not in love with the Duggars).

 

 

[Desert Strawberry]

That seems a bit of a stretch. She is being encourage to love freely and help her mother. That's pretty much what children should do. 

[abba12]

Yeah... I could say the same about my girls. Some kids just love holding babies and being a helper! I don't like the duggars but come on, this is a stretch

[gingersmom]

At age 7 I told my daughter what a nice person she was, great big sister, amazing friend, excellent student and amazing soccer player.

 

I found it weird.

[Guest]

Ehh...maybe. It could be taken that way, I believe. OTOH, maybe Jordyn genuinely is a great lover of playing with other people's babies and helping to clean and organize. That is not impossible.

 

On my FB birthday wish to my son, I gave him praise about things he likes, such as space, but it doesn't mean I'm brain-washing him to be an astronaut. :)

[Mimm]

Some people are a bit sensitive about the messages a girl is being sent at such a young age. When I was that age and even older (into my 20s actually), my mother only said nice things about me in relation to what I did for her. "You're such a huge help, I don't know what I would ever do without you, you're so good with your younger siblings, so maternal." And so on. These are the things she said to me, and about me in my hearing. These were all positive things. But I was never (and I mean EVER) told that I was pretty, smart, good at anything, capable of accomplishing what I set my mind to do, or anything that would have suggested I had good qualities of my own, independent of anyone else. So yes, when I see that type of message, it does seem kind of icky, especially knowing what kind of "values" the Duggars raise their kids with. It's impossible at this point to look at anything the Duggars do and not see it through that lens, and I'll acknowledge that that probably leads me (and others) to be a bit unfair and view things as overly negative. But there's also some justification for that.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Mimm

[mamiof5]

No Duggar lover here (I don't know them enough to know if I like them or not), but I am glad she's being encouraged to be a helper. Many kids are spoiled, only care about themselves and spend most of their time in front of some sort of electronic device. Now, that's something I would not want to encourage :(

[Guest]

I have a 6yo. Were I to write this, I'd talk about her ballet talent, her beautiful pictures, her sunny smile, her funny jokes. This, coming from MD, annoys me and makes me sad.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Let's see a 7 year old girl likes to do a developmentally appropriate thing like play house (which really is what loving on babies and doing those sorts of things is at that age).  She could obviously like to do other developmentally appropriate things like climb trees but I think its a shame that strangers feel a need to shame her for what she loves to do. 

[Tanaqui]

I have no comments on the content, but wow, that's a lot of exclamation points. I get that Michelle feels strongly, but... well, I would have used more standard punctuation, that's all.

[albeto.]

Yeah... I could say the same about my girls. Some kids just love holding babies and being a helper! I don't like the duggars but come on, this is a stretch

 

For me, it's not a stretch simply because the focus isn't on being a good sister, daughter, helper. The focus is on the child's identity as a servant and future help meet (according to the Duggars' expectations). To create this identity for a child, and then reward or punish her (either with tangible or social/affection) on the basis of meeting these very limited goals is cruel, I think. It reminds me a bit of the indoctrination in Brave New World. The focus is on her budding identity in the eyes of an invisible judge constantly critiquing everything the child does, or will do, and we've seen how this plays out in later years. It also seems impersonal and contrived, as if it was penned with a public audience and specific message in mind. 

[elegantlion]

My concern with the words is that they all involve her doing things for others. What does she do for herself, no it's not selfish for a 7 year old to have their own independent interest. There is no ballet or soccer or adoration of space, it's all done in relation to serving someone else. Maybe the child is bent that way and maybe if it were an anonymous message to a child, it might be viewed differently. Knowing this comes from the Duggars and how they view the role of women, it seems a bit like conditioning. 

[umsami]

Wow, I can't believe she's already seven.  Isn't she the one who was just a baby when the premie Josie was born? I always felt bad for her (hope I'm not mixing her up with somebody else.)

 

I think it's normal for kids at that age to want to be good helpers....but....yeah, in general, there is only one accepted future for her if her family continues to follow the same teachings it has in the past...and that is mom/homemaker.  I'm hoping that by the time Jordyn is old enough, the parents will be more comfortable with their daughters and sons attending college, pursuing careers, etc.  There are conservative Christian colleges out there.  

[JenniferB]

For me, it's not a stretch simply because the focus isn't on being a good sister, daughter, helper. The focus is on the child's identity as a servant and future help meet (according to the Duggars' expectations). To create this identity for a child, and then reward or punish her (either with tangible or social/affection) on the basis of meeting these very limited goals is cruel, I think. It reminds me a bit of the indoctrination in Brave New World. The focus is on her budding identity in the eyes of an invisible judge constantly critiquing everything the child does, or will do, and we've seen how this plays out in later years. It also seems impersonal and contrived, as if it was penned with a public audience and specific message in mind.

Can you explain more how it reminds you of Brave New World? I just read this book and I can't see the correlation. But I would like to experience your connections.

 

The note sounds like mantras I used to hear in my old church, "what a good helper you are," "are you mommy's little helper?" "How many children will you have when you grow up?" Barf.

[albeto.]

Can you explain more how it reminds you of Brave New World? I just read this book and I can't see the correlation. But I would like to experience your connections.

 

Just in that one's identity, and subsequent happiness, was programmed in for the convenience of the community. Not a strong analogy maybe, but it was the first thing that came to my mind."'Not so much like drops of water, though water, it is true, can wear holes in the hardest granite; rather, drops of liquid sealing-wax, drops that adhere, incrust, incorporate themselves with what they fall on, till finally the rock is all one scarlet blob.

 

'Till at last the child's mind is these suggestions, and the sum of the suggestions is the child's mind. And not the child's mind only. The adult's mind too—all his life long. The mind that judges and desires and decides—made up of these suggestions. But all these suggestions are our suggestions!' The Director almost shouted in his triumph."

 

We've seen the Duggars work to shape and condition their children into picture-perfect examples of American xianity. We've seen the curriculum they chose for education, and the "therapy" they go to for help when things don't work out. It's constant conditioning and reinforcement, and I see elements of that in the note. Michelle writes that the child loves god, this is her second comment. This kind of rhetoric sets and reinforces the identity. It's not hard to hear the underlying message: Duggar children love god. Good children love god. The last sentence is a reminder of the rewards (and consequently punishments) that a child can expect for being (or failing to be) a good child. 

 

The note sounds like mantras I used to hear in my old church, "what a good helper you are," "are you mommy's little helper?" "How many children will you have when you grow up?" Barf.

 

Reminds me of this...

 

[snickerplum]

The majority of things she was praised for are basic life skills, regardless of gender or future career paths.

[luuknam]

The majority of things she was praised for are basic life skills, regardless of gender or future career paths.

 

Right, but if I'd written that on my FB when my son turned 7, I'm sure everyone would've looked at it rather strangely. Who, at the time, btw, aspired to be a stay-at-home parent when he grew up (he's changed his mind now, not sure why, though he doesn't know yet what he does want to be).

 

I agree that the praise seems to be overly one-sided in the "helping others" part. But w/e. There are worse things happening to kids all the time.

[luuknam]

The note sounds like mantras I used to hear in my old church, "what a good helper you are," "are you mommy's little helper?" "How many children will you have when you grow up?" Barf.

 

Hey, at least asking how many children implies some level of choice, as opposed to "however many I'm 'blessed' with".

 

I've asked my sons how many kids they want when they grow up. Last time I asked Celery wanted 2 (or was it 3?), and Broccoli 100 (and no, we're not quiverful, lol).

[JenniferB]

 

'Not so much like drops of water, though water, it is true, can wear holes in the hardest granite; rather, drops of liquid sealing-wax, drops that adhere, incrust, incorporate themselves with what they fall on, till finally the rock is all one scarlet blob.

 

'Till at last the child's mind is these suggestions, and the sum of the suggestions is the child's mind. And not the child's mind only. The adult's mind too—all his life long. The mind that judges and desires and decides—made up of these suggestions. But all these suggestions are our suggestions!' The Director almost shouted in his triumph."

That quote is crazy good! Thank you for sharing your connections.

[AimeeM]

You are reading way, way, way into that.

 

I loved helping around the house and holding babies as a child. If my parents were to describe me, those things (and reading) would have really been about it. That does NOT meant that these things are all I was encouraged to do - those are just the things I did happen to enjoy.

[Guest]

 

Just in that one's identity, and subsequent happiness, was programmed in for the convenience of the community. Not a strong analogy maybe, but it was the first thing that came to my mind."'Not so much like drops of water, though water, it is true, can wear holes in the hardest granite; rather, drops of liquid sealing-wax, drops that adhere, incrust, incorporate themselves with what they fall on, till finally the rock is all one scarlet blob.

 

'Till at last the child's mind is these suggestions, and the sum of the suggestions is the child's mind. And not the child's mind only. The adult's mind too—all his life long. The mind that judges and desires and decides—made up of these suggestions. But all these suggestions are our suggestions!' The Director almost shouted in his triumph."

 

We've seen the Duggars work to shape and condition their children into picture-perfect examples of American xianity. We've seen the curriculum they chose for education, and the "therapy" they go to for help when things don't work out. It's constant conditioning and reinforcement, and I see elements of that in the note. Michelle writes that the child loves god, this is her second comment. This kind of rhetoric sets and reinforces the identity. It's not hard to hear the underlying message: Duggar children love god. Good children love god. The last sentence is a reminder of the rewards (and consequently punishments) that a child can expect for being (or failing to be) a good child.

 

 

 

Reminds me of this...

 

I agree with much of your premise and yes, we have certainly seen MD override whatever her kids might actually like with whatever she sanctions, i.e., "Jinger didn't mean she wants to live in New York City. Jinger meant somewhere that has a Walmart." Gag.

 

OTOH, all parents condition and steer their children towards adopting the behaviour and norms the parents value. Even unschool-y, natural parenting parents are still doing this, it's just that the values they instill are personal freedom, autonomy, independant action, etc., rather than master Calculus, score high on SATs, go to a prestigious university, etc.

 

People live in a social system. When people grow up extremely unwilling or unable to conform to some subculture of society, we deem them mentally ill. Indeed, it would be impossible to carry out a life that includes any element of social interaction if one cannot or will not adapt to a subset of social norms. So, if the Happy Birthday, Jordyn message is filled with conditioning to be a mommy and a helpful servant, and a good Christian, it is really no different from the conditioning I do when I tell my kid, "Wow! You play the piano so beautifully!" Or, "You crack me up, you are so funny!" Or, "you really have a knack for solving puzzles!"

[marbel]

At 7 I could have said that same things about my daughter.  Well, except the cleaning part.  She loved babies and little kids and at that time I thought she was headed for a career in a child-related field. 

 

Also, what is the problem with praising a child for taking delight in helping people?  

 

I realize the Duggars put themselves in the public eye but if they are so distasteful why not ignore them?  (I pretty much do, and don't know why I can't resist clicking on Duggar threads here.) 

[hjffkj]

Today is my oldest child's 7th bday. While he helps me out a lot and takes great care of his younger siblings, which I praise him for almost daily, I couldn't imagine focusing on just that in a letter for him on his bday. He is so much more than those things. He's amazingly athletic, adventurous, curious, artistic, intelligent, and so much more.

 

I find it weird that the letter only addressed those things associated to the stereotypical woman's role. I want so much more than that for my daughter's and myself.

[TammyS]

Some people are a bit sensitive about the messages a girl is being sent at such a young age. When I was that age and even older (into my 20s actually), my mother only said nice things about me in relation to what I did for her. "You're such a huge help, I don't know what I would ever do without you, you're so good with your younger siblings, so maternal." And so on. These are the things she said to me, and about me in my hearing. These were all positive things. But I was never (and I mean EVER) told that I was pretty, smart, good at anything, capable of accomplishing what I set my mind to do, or anything that would have suggested I had good qualities of my own, independent of anyone else. So yes, when I see that type of message, it does seem kind of icky, especially knowing what kind of "values" the Duggars raise their kids with. It's impossible at this point to look at anything the Duggars do and not see it through that lens, and I'll acknowledge that that probably leads me (and others) to be a bit unfair and view things as overly negative. But there's also some justification for that.

 

As I see it, your mother was correct.  Even if you possess all of the bolded qualities, I don't see them worth praising you for.  Those are inborn qualities,  luck of your genetics, not a credit to you personally.  She praised you for what you *actually did*, those are the things that are praiseworthy, not your good luck with your birth lottery.

[TammyS]

 

I'm so sad for this poor little girl. She is 7 and isn't being encouraged to do anything other than clean house and hold babies. Gross.

 

Yeah, it's totally gross that she's being encouraged to make a home and care for her family and others.  What a waste of her life that will be.  She needs to go to college, get a STEM career, make lots of money for a multinational corporation, break all the glass ceilings, and then her life will be justified.

[Desert Strawberry]

Hmm, I guess that it's possible that this is just all a manipulation on Michelle's part. Maybe little Jordyn wants nothing more than to take ballet lessons and read adventure novels, but Michelle is quietly ignoring that and pointing her in the direction of her own choosing. I have no doubt that Michelle has firm expectations, as we all do. She has certainly never equivocated about that. 
However, we don't KNOW that Jordyn isn't exactly as Michelle describes her. Maybe she IS mama's little helper and baby-crazy. I sure was at 7. And I was often told how inadequate I was because of it. 
My praise for my son at 7 was that he was an amazing helper to me, kind to his little siblings, exceptionally thoughtful and highly responsible. Because he was! And still is. He is a tender-hearted giver. He wants nothing for himself. He has few interests beyond spending time with family. I mean, goodness. Some kids really just are like this. 
My point is that nothing in this little note sounds horrible to me. It's fairly innocuous, as it stands. If you want to read more into, you certainly can. But it it isn't blatantly disgusting. 

[Mimm]

As I see it, your mother was correct.  Even if you possess all of the bolded qualities, I don't see them worth praising you for.  Those are inborn qualities,  luck of your genetics, not a credit to you personally.  She praised you for what you *actually did*, those are the things that are praiseworthy, not your good luck with your birth lottery.

 

Wow. This post made me so angry I don't even know if I should respond to it.

 

Telling a child she's capable and should develop her own interests isn't praising her for her "birth lottery". What the heck is wrong with you?? You don't think children should be treated as their own people and not simply as an extension of their mother?? 

 

As far as that goes, I tell my children all the time that they're beautiful and smart and other qualities they were simply born with. God forbid they feel good about these things right? They don't deserve a kind word from their own mother unless they DO stuff for me right? That's so messed up.

[marbel]

Aren't we not supposed to tell our kids they're smart?  Aren't we supposed to only praise them for things they've attempted or accomplished, things they've done or tried to do, (good) risks they took?   Am I behind? 

 

 

[Word Nerd]

Aren't we not supposed to tell our kids they're smart?  Aren't we supposed to only praise them for things they've attempted or accomplished, things they've done or tried to do, (good) risks they took?   Am I behind? 

 

No, you aren't behind. I doubt you would find any research supporting the idea that parents should praise their children for their intelligence or beauty instead of their effort and what they have accomplished or done. That said, most of us still do that at least to some extent. 

Edited December 19, 2015 by Word Nerd

[TammyS]

Wow. This post made me so angry I don't even know if I should respond to it.

 

Telling a child she's capable and should develop her own interests isn't praising her for her "birth lottery". What the heck is wrong with you?? You don't think children should be treated as their own people and not simply as an extension of their mother?? 

 

As far as that goes, I tell my children all the time that they're beautiful and smart and other qualities they were simply born with. God forbid they feel good about these things right? They don't deserve a kind word from their own mother unless they DO stuff for me right? That's so messed up.

 

Kind words and words of praise are not the same thing.  You should speak with kind words at all times, but you should praise what a child actually does, not what they are.

 

If you are smart, beautiful, etc....you are genetically lucky, and you don't deserve the credit for that.  But you would deserve kindness, even if you were ugly and dumb, because you are a human with dignity in either case.

 

If you study hard and make a good grade OR a bad grade, you deserve praise for your hard work, regardless of the outcome.

 

If you are helpful, you deserve praise for what you do.

 

If you tried something scary/hard/unusual, you deserve praise for exercising courage - even if it didn't work out.

[Carol in Cal.]

When I saw the title of this thread, I thought, "But wait!  There's more!"

[Mergath]

I find the note icky because it's basically saying, "Jordyn, you love doing the only thing you've ever been allowed to do, and the only thing you will ever be allowed to do! Good for you." Maybe she still would love cooking and cleaning and babies even if she was allowed to be in sports and learn science and have a normal life, but she'll never get to find out, will she?  

[gardenmom5]

When I saw the title of this thread, I thought, "But wait!  There's more!"

 

I've been seeing too much advertising for the girls new show - and now newspaper articles/interviews with anna.  I havent read them, and I record things so I FF through their commercials.

 

eta: I do think it's sad this is how they've been raised.  they think the only way to make a living is by being a public figure.  (and then complain when the public invades their privacy?  you're the one putting yourselves out there. . . . ..)

Edited December 19, 2015 by gardenmom5

[swellmomma]

You are reading way, way, way into that.

 

I loved helping around the house and holding babies as a child. If my parents were to describe me, those things (and reading) would have really been about it. That does NOT meant that these things are all I was encouraged to do - those are just the things I did happen to enjoy.

I did not like helping around the house but I sure loved holding babies.  Still do.  At 7 if FB had been around my parents could have written that about me.  At 9 I was babysitting my siblings, at 11 I was volunteering in a daycare and doing overnight babysitting for people on my block, at 38 I still have a career in childcare & holding babies still provides an instant calm and peace to my soul etc.  I was not being brainwashed, I rarely heard anything positive about myself growing up.  It wasn't due to conditioning from my parents that I am like this, it simply was/is who I am.  It is my passion.  Not the keeping house part, that has never been a passion.  But working with kids.  Some people have a passion for space or ballet or soccer, I had a passion for childcare.  I played with dolls until I was 12 pretending they were real babies, I held every real baby I could get my hands on, it is why I went to college for early childhood education, why I have now had a 27 year career in childcare.  People that have known me my whole life have commented about how my passion for this was so evident even when I was small.  In my babybook there was a spot where the parent could ask the child what they wanted to be when they grew up.  This spot began on the page focused on being 3 years old.  From age 3-5 (when the baby book ran out) my answer was always "a mom", it was "a mom" on my first grade journalling assignment.  It was "a mom" in junior high when we were learning career paths.  It was "a mom" in high school when we had to research post secondary options and careers. My folks did not want that, in fact they wanted me and my siblings to go straight to post secondary out of high school, get a high paying job, be "successful" and then maybe have children in our 30s.  I did not follow that plan, and they were furious with me.  I had my first at 21.  Mom wanted me to have an abortion, declaring I was too young, I was still in college, boyfriend and I were too new together.  Yup all true, just not worth an abortion.  So certainly not the type of family to be brainwashing girls towards childrearing and such.  And yet here I am, with 4 kids, a career with kids and a great desire to have more.

 

All of that long windedness to say, I think far too much is being read into Michelle Duggar's post.  It was just a little note about her daughter (since the assumption is a 7 yr old does not have fb and therefore would not see it anyway).  

[ktgrok]

Meh. I know this is what the "experts" say but I don't buy it. I think it does a girl good to be told she's beautiful. Because she always is, in her mother's eyes. And someday, she's giong to feel awkward and too fat or too skinny or have acne and it does her good to have a lifetime of associating with the word beautiful. It cushions that. I tell my kids they are kind, thoughtful, helpful, smart, hardworking, curious, and yes, beautiful/handsome. Because they are, and because even when they aren't being all those things, I think me thinking they are helps them to grow towards that. Worked for my parents with me, and I'm continuing it. 

 

I know that even when I feel frumpy and awful, my mommy and daddy still think I'm beautiful. And that helps. So sue me :)

Kind words and words of praise are not the same thing.  You should speak with kind words at all times, but you should praise what a child actually does, not what they are.

 

If you are smart, beautiful, etc....you are genetically lucky, and you don't deserve the credit for that.  But you would deserve kindness, even if you were ugly and dumb, because you are a human with dignity in either case.

 

If you study hard and make a good grade OR a bad grade, you deserve praise for your hard work, regardless of the outcome.

 

If you are helpful, you deserve praise for what you do.

 

If you tried something scary/hard/unusual, you deserve praise for exercising courage - even if it didn't work out.

 

[HomeAgain]

The Duggars have started to remind me of the Dionne family.  The children will, and do, have such a hard time in life because they have been marketed instead of learning marketable skills.

[gardenmom5]

The Duggars have started to remind me of the Dionne family.  The children will, and do, have such a hard time in life because they have been marketed instead of learning marketable skills.

 

except with the dionne family - it wasn't the parents doing the marketing. they were taken from the parents and made ward of the king when they were only four months old.  and the money making began.

[HomeAgain]

except with the dionne family - it wasn't the parents doing the marketing. they were taken from the parents and made ward of the king when they were only four months old. and the money making began.

The parents continued when they got the children back (along with being given a mansion). They paraded them out frequently until adulthood when the sisters retired from public life and could escape in some form or another.

[albeto.]

You are reading way, way, way into that.

 

I loved helping around the house and holding babies as a child. If my parents were to describe me, those things (and reading) would have really been about it. That does NOT meant that these things are all I was encouraged to do - those are just the things I did happen to enjoy.

 

 

I agree with much of your premise and yes, we have certainly seen MD override whatever her kids might actually like with whatever she sanctions, i.e., "Jinger didn't mean she wants to live in New York City. Jinger meant somewhere that has a Walmart." Gag.

 

OTOH, all parents condition and steer their children towards adopting the behaviour and norms the parents value. Even unschool-y, natural parenting parents are still doing this, it's just that the values they instill are personal freedom, autonomy, independant action, etc., rather than master Calculus, score high on SATs, go to a prestigious university, etc.

 

People live in a social system. When people grow up extremely unwilling or unable to conform to some subculture of society, we deem them mentally ill. Indeed, it would be impossible to carry out a life that includes any element of social interaction if one cannot or will not adapt to a subset of social norms. So, if the Happy Birthday, Jordyn message is filled with conditioning to be a mommy and a helpful servant, and a good Christian, it is really no different from the conditioning I do when I tell my kid, "Wow! You play the piano so beautifully!" Or, "You crack me up, you are so funny!" Or, "you really have a knack for solving puzzles!"

 

 

At 7 I could have said that same things about my daughter.  Well, except the cleaning part.  She loved babies and little kids and at that time I thought she was headed for a career in a child-related field. 

 

Also, what is the problem with praising a child for taking delight in helping people?  

 

I realize the Duggars put themselves in the public eye but if they are so distasteful why not ignore them?  (I pretty much do, and don't know why I can't resist clicking on Duggar threads here.) 

 

 

I am reading this in the context of a notable trend. In and of itself, the comment is neutral. As we probably all recognize (and as we can see), it's not at all unusual for little girls to enjoy the activities in the note. I'm even happy to put aside the very real possibility that the Duggar boys would never be given praise for such stereotypical "help meet" behavior. My thoughts go beyond the baby cooing and helping, and are more related to forming the child's identity in their Gothard inspired patriarchy/purity culture. The idea that she will be happy when she obeys god, and the idea that she will be rewarded with more of god's love (um, why does she think god is holding back on this child in the first place?), are more disturbing to me than the budding Stepford Wife claptrap these Duggar girls are bombarded with. Instead, I find the conditioning for Stockholm Syndrome troubling. 

 

Quill, I think this goes beyond conventional conditioning. The very last sentence serves as a reminder that she (and all of us, as this note was absolutely written for a larger audience than one little birthday girl) can "blessed" with more love and joy if she (we) continue (or begin) to remain under the umbrella of authority. If we don't, then Satan's going to get you. An excerpt from the blog Homeschoolers Anonymous:

 

The 14 years I spent as a student in ATI taught me many valuable lessons for my life. Here are some of the highlights:

 

* Parents are always right.

 

* Men are always right. Therefore, your father is double-right.

 

* Getting out from under the “umbrella of authority†means you will have many problems, including being raped. (Not sure what the warning is for boys who get out from under their umbrellas. I’m a girl so always heard the rape thing.) The fiery darts of Satan will have nothing to stop them from hitting you. We all know that an umbrella is the best possible analogy because their thin, flammable fabric is the perfect substance with which to stop fiery darts.

 

* If your umbrella – dad or husband – has holes, then Satan will get you unless you pray really hard that they’ll patch up their holes. If you don’t, you’ll probably get raped.

(and more)

THE MANY VALUABLE LESSONS I LEARNED IN ATI: LAURA’S STORY

 

Vyckie Garrison has an invaluable explanation for the damage this kind of philosophy does to one's sense of identity. I recommend reading for more insight as to why I'm responding the way I am. 

 

Marbel, I wonder if the topic of the Duggars feel compelling because they embody the extreme version of what might be admirable, or horrifying, and we see some semblance of a role model or warning in them. And I think as of late, we're finding that what was for a long time considered admirable actually contributes to the horror, not a matter of doing it wrong, but as a matter of doing it so right. By following the rules so well, the Duggars have contributed to creating monsters greater than they could have imagined. And if this note is current, then they're still doing it. It's like watching a train wreck, but it's not a train, it's a real, live little girl whose sense of identity is being controlled through the use of giant, invisible, carrots and sticks. By the time she's ready to be married off, she, like our characters from Brave New World, will consider these thoughts her own. So much for being free to think what you want, you know? That's what gets me - this family is denying their children the freedom of thought. I find that reprehensible and completely unjustifiable. 

[Catwoman]

Meh. I know this is what the "experts" say but I don't buy it. I think it does a girl good to be told she's beautiful. Because she always is, in her mother's eyes. And someday, she's giong to feel awkward and too fat or too skinny or have acne and it does her good to have a lifetime of associating with the word beautiful. It cushions that. I tell my kids they are kind, thoughtful, helpful, smart, hardworking, curious, and yes, beautiful/handsome. Because they are, and because even when they aren't being all those things, I think me thinking they are helps them to grow towards that. Worked for my parents with me, and I'm continuing it.

 

I know that even when I feel frumpy and awful, my mommy and daddy still think I'm beautiful. And that helps. So sue me :)

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

I like this post so much I had to quote it so everyone could read it again. :)

[Carol in Cal.]

Re the question of whether to praise for innate traits or not, the book "Things Will Be Different For My Daughter" cautions that since society pressures girls very hard to be beautiful, it's better and more effective to include other traits ALONG WITH beauty.  As in 'smart AND beautiful'.

[gardenmom5]

The parents continued when they got the children back (along with being given a mansion). They paraded them out frequently until adulthood when the sisters retired from public life and could escape in some form or another.

 

if the gov't hadn't started it, they probably would have had a more normal life.

 

eta: they were a 'poor' farming family.  (my mother's side were all farmers in that same era.)  they'd also become used to the money the girls brought in.  they didn't originally peddle them, but they were paid to shut up and not complain. 

 

the duggers are similiar - they got used to the lifestyle the money could buy them - and they don't want to give it up.  so now, the girls are doing it on their own.  (and complaining about their lack of privacy?  then don't peddle yourselves to the public.)

Edited December 19, 2015 by gardenmom5

[luuknam]

It's like watching a train wreck, but it's not a train, it's a real, live little girl whose sense of identity is being controlled through the use of giant, invisible, carrots and sticks. By the time she's ready to be married off, she, like our characters from Brave New World, will consider these thoughts her own. So much for being free to think what you want, you know? That's what gets me - this family is denying their children the freedom of thought. I find that reprehensible and completely unjustifiable. 

 

At this point, you're simply railing against religion again. And, for the record, I'm happy to say that I don't try to make my kids be blank slates and dump every random world view on them for them to select from at will. Since they're young, I tell them certain things are true and false, such as "god isn't real, the bible is just a story book some people believe in just like the ancient Egyptians believed in their gods and the ancient Greeks in theirs, it's all pretty silly". I push them to have certain values and morals, and use carrots and sticks for that. Obviously, they're different from the Duggar's, but 7yos like Jordyn (or 5yo and 8yos in my case) are little kids, not grown-ups. So yeah, every kid is molded by their parents and society to be a certain way - nobody has freedom of thought because everything is influenced by the people who raised you. Which isn't an intrinsically bad thing.

[marbel]

So, I'm curious.   Some of the Kardashian sisters have had children.  Or maybe just one of them.  I don't really follow except as I see things on magazine covers in the grocery store. 

 

Assuming the fame lasts, how do you think those kids will be raised?   I would guess (note I said guess) that they will be raised to do whatever it takes to get money and fame. That marriage is not to be taken seriously (I think that one of the sisters was married for something like a few months and has been married multiple times?)  Is that OK/better than what the Duggars are (apparently) teaching their kids?   Maybe I'm overly cynical but I get the feeling some will say it's OK because it's not religious indoctrination.   But I don't know that they would be raised to be 'freethinkers' any more than Duggar kids would be/have been.

 

I'll admit it may be unfair to lump them all together.  But they sort of run together in my mind.

[Mimm]

Saying nice things and "praising" someone are indistinguishable from each other. And yes, a child should be told that her mother finds her beautiful. The entire world is going to tell your children that they aren't good enough, that they are too fat or too tall or too pale or too dark or their hair is too frizzy or their eyes are too far apart or their lips are too thin. They should know that for at least one person, they are beautiful and perfect. This thread is breaking my heart and I'm taking it way personally that I was told my mentally ill mother did a great job raising me so I think I'm going to step out at this point.

[albeto.]

At this point, you're simply railing against religion again. 

 

Putting aside the fact that no one ever considers people on this forum who speak of xmas miracles, god's blessings, feeling god's love, personal relationship with jesus, the reason for the xmas season, etc etc etc, as rallying for religion again (even when threads are started for this very purpose), I would encourage you to read the words I write, not infer some message you think I'm secretly plugging. I'm speaking about the Duggars, about their philosophy, not xianity or religion in general. 

 

So yeah, every kid is molded by their parents and society to be a certain way - nobody has freedom of thought because everything is influenced by the people who raised you. Which isn't an intrinsically bad thing.

 

Yes, I know this, but the Duggars do not raise their children in a conventional way. Their fame stems from this fact. While we cannot know what will happen with this child, we can know what's happened to the other children, and we can make a reasonable prediction that the same methodology will result in generally the same situation. Then again, perhaps she'll be the first to break away, empowered by information and support her siblings never had.