Phonics- Is HOP solid enough?

[Seeking Squirrels]

I never really see Hooked on Phonics talked about here or listed as what someone is using. So it makes me wonder if it is a solid enough problem or if there is some reason I don't see it too often. We have all of them from pre-k thru master reader. Personally *I* am not a fan of them. I actually pulled my oldest from it after she finished the 1st grade books because I felt like she was way ahead of where the program was and that it was going too slowly for what she wanted (but she didn't have the stamina to do multiple lessons a day to accelerate, she was young 5 at the time). We switched to OPGTR and it went well, but she always cried that she missed HOP. So I eventually let her go back to it, even starting where we left off with grade 2, even though she was reading at a near 4th grade level at that point. She's in Master Reader now and happily moving through even though I don't know that she's actually learned anything new yet.

 

She's happy, though, and likes to read, so my concern is for when my 3yo gets there. She does want to start, she asks for phonics lessons. So I'm working with her on letter sounds. Am I good to put her through HOP, or would it be better to switch to something like AAR now? That program appeals to me, but I don't want to be falling prey to a "grass is greener" way of thinking and spending a lot on a full new program when I have a full program already. If you had all of HOP, what would you do for an up and coming phonics student?

 

 

 

 

[Slache]

I was not impressed with HOP, though it is fun. We use Reading Lessons Through Literature which takes a similar approach to AAS. I think it's much better.

[SparklyUnicorn]

It worked very well for both of mine.

 

 

[asmall]

I had struggling readers. We used a bunch of different learn to read programs, but Master Reader was the favorite among my girls. I think they liked doing the lessons on the computer. Plus it was very easy for them to do by themselves freeing me up for something else. It wasn't my first pick, but it ended up being the best fit my our family. Both my girls read very well, so no complaints.

AL

[AEC]

worked great for us.

Took a 6yo and a 4yo through it at the same time (6yo moved faster).  It was cheap, fun and totally effective.  They're both happy and prolific readers.

 

I think we got the kit from CostCo for ~100$.  They went from start though the 'Master Reader' program.

 

Prior to that we had them watch the LetterFactory which was like magic.  Twice through and poof - they knew their letter sounds.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I used the Letter Factory videos too.  Those are magical.  And it's weird because they don't seem magical.

 

 

[HomeAgain]

I wasn't impressed with its setup from its website.

 

1. it takes too long. 

2. it's too expensive.

3. it teaches the alphabet first.

 

I have Hooked on Math and if it was trying to sell me on the company's products, it totally failed. 

[TranquilMind]

I never really see Hooked on Phonics talked about here or listed as what someone is using. So it makes me wonder if it is a solid enough problem or if there is some reason I don't see it too often. We have all of them from pre-k thru master reader. Personally *I* am not a fan of them. I actually pulled my oldest from it after she finished the 1st grade books because I felt like she was way ahead of where the program was and that it was going too slowly for what she wanted (but she didn't have the stamina to do multiple lessons a day to accelerate, she was young 5 at the time). We switched to OPGTR and it went well, but she always cried that she missed HOP. So I eventually let her go back to it, even starting where we left off with grade 2, even though she was reading at a near 4th grade level at that point. She's in Master Reader now and happily moving through even though I don't know that she's actually learned anything new yet.

 

She's happy, though, and likes to read, so my concern is for when my 3yo gets there. She does want to start, she asks for phonics lessons. So I'm working with her on letter sounds. Am I good to put her through HOP, or would it be better to switch to something like AAR now? That program appeals to me, but I don't want to be falling prey to a "grass is greener" way of thinking and spending a lot on a full new program when I have a full program already. If you had all of HOP, what would you do for an up and coming phonics student?

My hands-down winner was Alpha-Phonics, a thin book that dives right in by Sam Blumenfeld.   The child is reading short words immediately.  It must have worked.  My kids are highly accomplished in language and one is going to get a doctorate in linguistics (current plan, anyway, in uni right now). 

Edited December 4, 2015 by TranquilMind

[AEC]

I used the Letter Factory videos too.  Those are magical.  And it's weird because they don't seem magical.

 

there's still a running family joke..

 

'And the Burfela says Mrphlphsha'

 

 

LOLZ!

 

 

only the first one was great @ our house.  The NumberFactory, others....nothing.  The first LetterFactory, however, was amazing.

 

 

-andy

[The Governess]

I didn't find that it took too long. My oldest went through all the levels (of the old version with 5 boxes) in 9 months (she was a very early/advanced reader). I followed it up with phonics-based spelling. My youngest took a couple years to go through it, but I also used Spalding with her, and reading did not come as effortlessly for her.

 

I like it because there is no writing, and not a lot of rules to learn, so you can just snuggle up on the couch and read. But it's best for kids that don't need as much explicit phonics instruction, or as a supplement to a phonics-heavy program that doesn't have a lot of readers integrated into it already (I like the HOP readers/workbooks better than Spalding).

[MerryAtHope]

In general (unless something really is inferior and not worth my time to use) I try to use what I have first, and then see if I need to try something else or switch. Saves money :-). If your youngest struggles or doesn't pick things up as easily with HOP, then you could pick up AAR. Or if HOP works, you may find that you want something after HOP since it doesn't go as far with reading as a program like AAR. A few differences:

 

Hooked on Phonics is less incremental and has bigger “jumps†between concepts. For a child who doesn’t struggle with learning to read, this may not be an issue, but some children need more incremental methods.

 

All About Reading focuses on the phonograms, while HOP sometimes focuses on word parts (for example, “at†words, where “at†is referred to as a sound–it’s actually two sounds). Again, this will work fine for some children, while for others it encourages word-guessing where they try to focus on just part of a word (such as looking at the first letter and then guessing a word). You can see how AAR works to prevent and correct word-guessing through this blog article on Break the Word-Guessing Habit.

 

HOP is mainly for 4-8 year-olds and includes 2-syllable words, while All About Reading can be used with a broader age range. AAR 2 includes 2 and 3 syllable words, and Level 3 has words up to 5 syllables. At the end of Level 4 of AAR, students have the phonics and word attack skills necessary to sound out high school level words, though they may not know the meaning of all higher level words.(Word attack skills include things like dividing words into syllables, making analogies to other words, sounding out the word with the accent on different word parts, recognizing affixes, etc…)

 

Some kids take off on their own and continue to learn new strategies for reading without being directly taught, while others really need that instruction. If you find one or both of your kids would benefit from additional instruction, you could use the AAR placement tests at that point to see where they should start.

[Seeking Squirrels]

I used the Letter Factory videos too.  Those are magical.  And it's weird because they don't seem magical.

My oldest watched Letter Factory two times at about 20 months old and knew all her letters and sounds. It was crazy! I've always told people LF is magic! But my 3yo has seen it dozens of times and hasn't picked up on most of them. She recognizes some letters but not all and can sometimes get the sound right but not always. So we've been taking it one letter at a time for the last few weeks.

 

I had struggling readers. We used a bunch of different learn to read programs, but Master Reader was the favorite among my girls. I think they liked doing the lessons on the computer. Plus it was very easy for them to do by themselves freeing me up for something else. It wasn't my first pick, but it ended up being the best fit my our family. Both my girls read very well, so no complaints.

AL

I like that it's not as teacher intensive as AAR woud be. That's been great for my oldest who is very demanding of my time and needing me right. there. for most everything. But I"m not sure it's a bonus for my 3yo who could really do with more one-on-one time with mom.

 

 

In general (unless something really is inferior and not worth my time to use) I try to use what I have first, and then see if I need to try something else or switch. Saves money :-). If your youngest struggles or doesn't pick things up as easily with HOP, then you could pick up AAR. Or if HOP works, you may find that you want something after HOP since it doesn't go as far with reading as a program like AAR. A few differences:

 

Hooked on Phonics is less incremental and has bigger “jumps†between concepts. For a child who doesn’t struggle with learning to read, this may not be an issue, but some children need more incremental methods.

 

All About Reading focuses on the phonograms, while HOP sometimes focuses on word parts (for example, “at†words, where “at†is referred to as a sound–it’s actually two sounds). Again, this will work fine for some children, while for others it encourages word-guessing where they try to focus on just part of a word (such as looking at the first letter and then guessing a word). You can see how AAR works to prevent and correct word-guessing through this blog article on Break the Word-Guessing Habit.

 

HOP is mainly for 4-8 year-olds and includes 2-syllable words, while All About Reading can be used with a broader age range. AAR 2 includes 2 and 3 syllable words, and Level 3 has words up to 5 syllables. At the end of Level 4 of AAR, students have the phonics and word attack skills necessary to sound out high school level words, though they may not know the meaning of all higher level words.(Word attack skills include things like dividing words into syllables, making analogies to other words, sounding out the word with the accent on different word parts, recognizing affixes, etc…)

 

Some kids take off on their own and continue to learn new strategies for reading without being directly taught, while others really need that instruction. If you find one or both of your kids would benefit from additional instruction, you could use the AAR placement tests at that point to see where they should start.

 

I actually have noticed that my 7yo, while a good reader, does tend to start word-guessing sometimes. She'll say a word that starts the same or has the same letters but a different order and then gets stuck for a moment like she has to really focus to see the actual word and not what she guessed. For a little while I was wondering if she had mild dyslexia because she did it so frequently with words that swapping a couple letters in the middle made another real word and she'd read it the swapped way. (My mind is seriously blanking on examples.) But then her reading took off so I didn't worry about it too much. She still does it sometimes, but not nearly so often.

 

The Master Reader program is supposed to take them through five-syllable words. I'm hoping she hits a point soon that starts to challenge her.

 

I do still like the sound of AAR, but I agree with you that it's probably best to try the program we already have first.

[sweetpea3829]

I'm not entirely sure what facet of HOP I have, but we do have Grade K, 1/2 and 3/4.

 

I use HOP with my earliest readers...through the middle of the 1/2 level, or thereabouts.  That's usually when they are covering blends.  Around that time, I switch to Progressive Phonics and Explode the Code.  Mostly, I use ETC to give them the hands-on with the phonics, as opposed to just reading.  I've found that they pick up new words more readily when they actually write them while reading them.  

 

I DO still use the HOP readers from 1/2 and 3/4.  I find them to be much more engaging than other readers we own.  

[ElizabethB]

My number one source of remedial homeschool students is HOP, too many sight words and incomplete phonics. It encourages guessing habits. Here is how and why to teach sight words phonetically:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/sightwords.html

 

OPG and PP both teach to around a 4th grade level and I have not yet had a remedial student from either program. Of course, Webster is my favorite, phonics to the 12th grade level! AAR is also sound and I have had no remedial students from it, either, although it is newer so I only know a few dozen families that have used it. But, based on the samples I have seen, I do not expect problems from AAR.

Edited December 10, 2015 by ElizabethB

[ElizabethB]

My oldest watched Letter Factory two times at about 20 months old and knew all her letters and sounds. It was crazy! I've always told people LF is magic! But my 3yo has seen it dozens of times and hasn't picked up on most of them. She recognizes some letters but not all and can sometimes get the sound right but not always. So we've been taking it one letter at a time for the last few weeks.

 

I like that it's not as teacher intensive as AAR woud be. That's been great for my oldest who is very demanding of my time and needing me right. there. for most everything. But I"m not sure it's a bonus for my 3yo who could really do with more one-on-one time with mom.

 

I actually have noticed that my 7yo, while a good reader, does tend to start word-guessing sometimes. She'll say a word that starts the same or has the same letters but a different order and then gets stuck for a moment like she has to really focus to see the actual word and not what she guessed. For a little while I was wondering if she had mild dyslexia because she did it so frequently with words that swapping a couple letters in the middle made another real word and she'd read it the swapped way. (My mind is seriously blanking on examples.) But then her reading took off so I didn't worry about it too much. She still does it sometimes, but not nearly so often.

 

The Master Reader program is supposed to take them through five-syllable words. I'm hoping she hits a point soon that starts to challenge her.

 

I do still like the sound of AAR, but I agree with you that it's probably best to try the program we already have first.

The HOP method is the most likely cause of the guessing, not dyslexia. Nonsense words with my game should fix the remaining problems. Also, if you do try Webster, the syllables act as nonsense words, but you want to play the game too to work on the other word patterns learned incorrectly.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Phonics/concentrationgam.html

Edited December 10, 2015 by ElizabethB

[Seeking Squirrels]

My number one source of remedial homeschool students is HOP, too many sight words and incomplete phonics. It encourages guessing habits. Here is how and why to teach sight words phonetically:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/sightwords.html

 

OPG and PP both teach to around a 4th grade level and I have not yet had a remedial student from either program. Of course, Webster is my favorite, phonics to the 12th grade level! AAR is also sound and I have had no remedial students from it, either, although it is newer so I only know a few dozen families that have used it. But, based on the samples I have seen, I do not expect problems from AAR.

 

This is pretty telling to me. DH has always struggled more with reading and spelling than me and never liked reading as a kid. So he would rather err on the side of caution with the kids and move away from HOP. 7yo likes the master reader program so we're reluctant to take it away. I'll probably just keep an eye on it and supplement where necessary. But since we're only just starting with the 3yo, we're going to switch now.

[ElizabethB]

This is pretty telling to me. DH has always struggled more with reading and spelling than me and never liked reading as a kid. So he would rather err on the side of caution with the kids and move away from HOP. 7yo likes the master reader program so we're reluctant to take it away. I'll probably just keep an eye on it and supplement where necessary. But since we're only just starting with the 3yo, we're going to switch now.

Just teach the sight words phonetically and follow up with a review from something more comprehensive like PP or OPG to make sure you have taught all the phonics necessary to sound out anything.

[melmichigan]

My oldest did great with HOP.  My next two where twins, one did great and only needed follow up phonics for rules, which we handled through spelling.  The other struggled and we used a combination of other things.  My fourth did well and ran through all levels of HOP very quickly, so we followed up with PAL for phonics rules since he was a very early reader.  My last has really struggled with HOP and I finally moved him to AAR in 2nd grade.  

Edited December 12, 2015 by melmichigan

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

HOP is solid.

 

Like any other program, it's success varies by kid.

[ElizabethB]

HOP is solid.

 

Like any other program, it's success varies by kid.

Actually, I have tested hundreds of kids and HOP and the normal school methods are not solid, the public schools are my number one source of remedial students. There are a few good programs that produce consistently above grade level results across hundreds of children, homeschool programs and what the majority of Catholic schools use. The protestant schools use a variety of different things and results vary by program.

[umsami]

Actually, I have tested hundreds of kids and HOP and the normal school methods are not solid, the public schools are my number one source of remedial students. There are a few good programs that produce consistently above grade level results across hundreds of children, homeschool programs and what the majority of Catholic schools use. The protestant schools use a variety of different things and results vary by program.

 

 

So what are these programs?

[SparklyUnicorn]

I wasn't impressed with its setup from its website.

 

1. it takes too long. 

2. it's too expensive.

3. it teaches the alphabet first.

 

I have Hooked on Math and if it was trying to sell me on the company's products, it totally failed. 

 

Huh.  We must be talking about 2 different versions or something.  I don't recall it teaching the alphabet.  It took a few minutes a day. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

HOP is solid.

 

Like any other program, it's success varies by kid.

 

I agree.  I can't say enough good about it.  I had one very early reader.  I suspect he really didn't need a program at all so maybe that's a fluke.  But then my other kid he was pretty average.  It worked great for him.

[ElizabethB]

So what are these programs?

OPG, PP, A Beka

 

I have really good or really bad results from WRTW depending on the student and the instructor, it is difficult to teach well.

Edited December 13, 2015 by ElizabethB

[FawnsFunnyFarm]

I have successfully helped 3 of my kids learn to read with HOP. We tried many other programs, most brought tears, most left this kiddo or that more confused. Between HOP and Reading Eggs, they all found their way. My only kiddo I didn't teach this way, I'm pretty sure was born with a book in his hand, he read on his own at 4 with no real instruction beyond learning letters and their sounds.

 

HOP gets a bad rap, but it works works for many kids, just like anything else.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

Huh. We must be talking about 2 different versions or something. I don't recall it teaching the alphabet. It took a few minutes a day.

Our set included an optional learn the alphabet step, the directions said to skip it if your child already knew them.

[ElizabethB]

I have successfully helped 3 of my kids learn to read with HOP. We tried many other programs, most brought tears, most left this kiddo or that more confused. Between HOP and Reading Eggs, they all found their way. My only kiddo I didn't teach this way, I'm pretty sure was born with a book in his hand, he read on his own at 4 with no real instruction beyond learning letters and their sounds.

 

HOP gets a bad rap, but it works works for many kids, just like anything else.

It has too many sight words, your children did fine with that but a certain percentage of children will develop reading problems from them, the more sight words and the less complete the phonics, the more remedial students there will be percentage wise. My next source of remedial students, percentage wise from homeschoolers, is BJU, which also uses a lot of sight words.

 

When I first started tutoring 21 years ago, the schools where I lived at the time used 100% whole word methods and the percent if failing students was crazy. Balanced literacy is bad, but whole language was worse.

 

Some of the California schools do speed drills with the sight words, the failure rate at these schools is higher than normal balanced literacy schools that teach a mix of sight words and phonics. The fastest students I ever remediated were actually formerly homeless mainly minority students who had been in and out of inner city Los Angeles schools, they had never done sight words so once they learned phonics, they took off. My middle class remedial students all need retraining and weaning off sight word guessing habits with nonsense words.

Edited December 13, 2015 by ElizabethB

[FawnsFunnyFarm]

It has too many sight words, your children did fine with that but a certain percentage of children will develop reading problems from them, the more sight words and the less complete the phonics, the more remedial students there will be percentage wise. My next source of remedial students, percentage wise from homeschoolers, is BJU, which also uses a lot of sight words.

 

When I first started tutoring 21 years ago, the schools where I lived at the time used 100% whole word methods and the percent if failing students was crazy. Balanced literacy is bad, but whole language was worse.

 

Some of the California schools do speed drills with the sight words, the failure rate at these schools is higher than normal balanced literacy schools that teach a mix of sight words and phonics. The fastest students I ever remediated were actually formerly homeless mainly minority students who had been in and out of inner city Los Angeles schools, they had never done sight words so once they learned phonics, they took off. My middle class remedial students all need retraining and weaning off sight word guessing habits with nonsense words.

We all get it, you have a beef with HOP. That's fine, you have a right to dislike anything you want. You don't need to quote every person who says it worked for their needs, and repeat your too many sight words mantra. Your way is not the only way to do something. I'm pretty sure, kids that it worked for, wouldn't be coming to you for your remedial services, now would they? You are only seeing the failures, kids that probably just weren't ready to learn to read but were pushed through because people think very kid should be reading early. For every kid who you see that HOP didn't work for, there may be 10 or more kids out there that it did.

 

The OP asked if it could be enough. For many, the answer is yes, it can work.

[ElizabethB]

But I have NEVER had a remedial student from Phonics Pathways or A Beka or OPG and I know hundreds of students who have used these programs from several different states in my 21 years as a remedial reading tutor!

 

A Beka actually has more sight words than I like but teaches the phonics well and repeats the phonics over several years so It does not produce remedial students even with a few sight words, although I personally do not like to teach them; I go by results, not if I like the program or not.

 

People should use what they want, I am just sharing my experiences so people can mitigate their risks and have the ability choose the programs that have the best overall results.

 

(We moved every 2 years on average in my 21 years as an Air Force family.)

Edited December 13, 2015 by ElizabethB

[sweetpea3829]

Elizabeth, we have beat this sight words horse to death many times in the past.

 

The fact is...ALL words eventually become sight words for our kids.  Do you phonetically sound out every single word you read?  No, of course not...you recognize them...by sight.  

 

 

[HomeAgain]

Elizabeth, we have beat this sight words horse to death many times in the past.

 

The fact is...ALL words eventually become sight words for our kids.  Do you phonetically sound out every single word you read?  No, of course not...you recognize them...by sight.  

 

Not according to the linked research in the General Education board. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/579026-brain-research-shows-adults-read-words-by-sound-not-sight-just-really-fast/

[ElizabethB]

Elizabeth, we have beat this sight words horse to death many times in the past.

 

The fact is...ALL words eventually become sight words for our kids. Do you phonetically sound out every single word you read? No, of course not...you recognize them...by sight.

Actually, newer brain research shows that the brain is decoding them super fast, read some of the Stanislas Dehaene articles or his book, "Reading in the Brain." They used MEG technology and found that the brain is working in parallel very fast but is reading based on sound, not word shape. With MEG, they are able to see what the brain is doing much faster than fMRI. The science is fascinating, I just read through a bunch of his articles and am now reading his book. He did some before and after work with adult illiterates that is especially fascinating. There are a bunch of different studies they used to figure this out, the details are interesting, they ruled out things and come to their conclusion very logically, the book goes into the details of each study and how they figured out that the brain was doing in each step and how sounds and meanings and related words are processed.

[Ellie]

The fact is...ALL words eventually become sight words for our kids.  Do you phonetically sound out every single word you read?  No, of course not...you recognize them...by sight.  

 

This is a lame argument that sight-reading proponents use to "prove"  that children will learn to read as well by learning to memorize words by sight as they will with phonics. What actually happens is that when we have been taught using a phonics method, we use that knowledge to sound out new words, and eventually to recognize words in one fell swoop.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Elizabeth, we have beat this sight words horse to death many times in the past.

 

The fact is...ALL words eventually become sight words for our kids.  Do you phonetically sound out every single word you read?  No, of course not...you recognize them...by sight.  

 

There are over a million words in the English language.  I doubt most people know them all by sight.  If I come across a word I have never seen, knowing some phonics can help with figuring out the pronunciation.

 

My argument isn't against or for the concept of sight words in reading instruction, but to say we all know all words by sight, hmmm.

[mom2bee]

I think that Hooked on Phonics is a complete and solid choice for reading instruction. I learned to read with HOP from the "vintage" edition. I have used it to teach other kids to read also. The newer version that came in levels/grades is a more complete program--it has readers a chart etc, but it is not as thorough as the older version was.

 

However, I think that HOP is a viable option for many kids. You will have to know how to get around your child guessing/rhyming their way through the early pages or be comfortable mixing things up for yourself.

 

I will say that you can skip any sight words that you don't feel comfortable teaching. I like to teach to use the Sight Words by Sound list from The Phonics Page, to teach sight words phonetically as they are encountered. But to answer your question, HOP is definitely solid enough to be a reading curriculum.