What is a 'microaggression'?

[Sneezyone]

 

I feel like I've just had blinders removed. I never dreamed that my sincere interest in people could come back to bite me or that I was offending someone with my questions.

 

There is a difference between sincere interest and micro-aggression. I realize that it's difficult for some people to find that line but many of us manage to walk it just fine.

 

It's the difference between, "Wow, I love your hair, how long did that take?" and "Wow, I love your hair! Can I touch it?" followed by a hand reaching for my child's head. 

 

It's the difference between, "Nice sweatshirt! When did you graduate?" and "Did you really go there?"

[JumpyTheFrog]

I love finding out where people are from. This includes if I can detect an accent of any kind (foreign or American but not Southern) or if it's obvious they have a different ancestry than white such as Asian, Hispanic, Middle Eastern, etc. I'm not intending any rudeness at all 

 

Yes, I live in an area that has many, many more immigrants than where I grew up. I often try to figure out where people are from based on their accents, but I am not very good at it. I don't ask people, lest I offend them. It's too bad, because I'm sure it would be interesting to learn more about their home countries.

[creekland]

For example, there is an Asian family at a local library every Monday when I'm there with my two youngest. I'm almost certain they are Chinese (I've been listening to them speak and think I've pinpointed it.). I would LOVE to strike up a conversation with them, but don't want to seem weird or rude since we never interact beyond a smile and a nod. After learning about microaggression, I don't know that I will.

 

I feel like I've just had blinders removed. I never dreamed that my sincere interest in people could come back to bite me or that I was offending someone with my questions.

 

Chances are they'll love it if you strike up a conversation with them and include them in your life.

 

My friends from Cameroon feel slighted that few care about them enough to talk with them or ask them about their lives.  They feel like they aren't really wanted in this country - that there's no room in personal circles for them.

 

Immigrant kids from Bosnia, the Ukraine, and Mexico love talking about their countries and things they like/dislike about there and here.  They like having someone care.

 

Fellow travelers I've talked with on airplanes have been from Haiti and the Bahamas (both living/working in the US now).  They've enjoyed sharing about their lives - having someone next to them who cared to ask and listen/interact.  Either that or they lied when our flight ended... but I definitely don't think that was the case.  I doubt they'd have shared family pics if they'd been offended.

 

If the folks you talk with seem distant, then I'd let them go, but the chances are high that they want to be accepted by others here.

 

Maybe it's a stereotype or microagression, but I'm kind of getting the feeling it might be homeschoolers who tend to be more sensitive and/or reclusive.  ;)

[Tanaqui]

"Wow, I love your hair! Can I touch it?" followed by a hand reaching for my child's head.

 

This happens to my kid all the time. DO NOT TOUCH PEOPLE'S HAIR OMG. Seriously, it's a creepy invasion of personal space. NOT COOL.

 

Threads like this make small talk with strangers seem even more difficult. Now we who aren't that great at small talk have to worry about people being offended if we ask where someone is from. Do we also need to be paranoid about asking where someone works? Or where/if they went to college? Is there anything left that can't be taken the wrong way by somebody?

 

Paranoid is really overstating it. Try to use common sense. If somebody tells you "I'm from Wisconsin", say "Okay" not "No, I mean, where are you REALLY from?" like they're a liar. If they tell you they went to Harvard, don't say "REALLY?" like you think they're stupid or, worse, "I didn't get in, because of all that affirmative action".

 

And if they tell you they were offended by something you said, don't go "oh, you're so oversensitive!" even if you think they are. Even if everybody thinks they are! Just say "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to" and try not to say that thing to that person again. (And if lots of people tell you that you're offensive, take it seriously.)

Edited December 3, 2015 by Tanaqui

[Catherine]

I think there is a big difference between saying, "Where are you from" and "What is your ethnic background", which is the REAL question, I think, that is intended when people are asking this question.  It also helps the questioner to remember that it IS a slightly personal question that might not be welcomed by everyone.  

[Catwoman]

 

This happens to my kid all the time. DO NOT TOUCH PEOPLE'S HAIR OMG. Seriously, it's a creepy invasion of personal space. NOT COOL.

 

 

 

Paranoid is really overstating it. Try to use common sense. If somebody tells you "I'm from Wisconsin", say "Okay" not "No, I mean, where are you REALLY from?" like they're a liar. If they tell you they went to Harvard, don't say "REALLY?" like you think they're stupid or, worse, "I didn't get in, because of all that affirmative action".

 

And if they tell you they were offended by something you said, don't go "oh, you're so oversensitive!" even if you think they are. Even if everybody thinks they are! Just say "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to" and try not to say that thing to that person again. (And if lots of people tell you that you're offensive, take it seriously.)

I think that is a very sensible explanation. :)

 

I also think, though, that people should try to think twice before assuming the worst of another person when it's a first time offense. I get it that some people are asked the same questions frequently and that after a while it gets really old. I also get it that some people ask those questions with a real prejudice or bias in their mind. But if it's a question that someone could ask innocently (like "where are you from?") and the person seems otherwise friendly, it seems wise to refrain from lecturing them on how they are being microaggressive. Extend a little grace at first before making a negative assumption. Obviously, if that same person says questionable things over and over again or acts like you're lying, that's a different story, and I do think it's a good idea to speak up about it.

[Joules]

I'm kind of sad right now.

 

I love finding out where people are from. This includes if I can detect an accent of any kind (foreign or American but not Southern) or if it's obvious they have a different ancestry than white such as Asian, Hispanic, Middle Eastern, etc. I'm not intending any rudeness at all I just love to hear people's origin stories; how their family wound up in America, what countries their family's originally came from, etc. I guess it's the history major in me because I love learning about different cultures and people from those cultures. As a white person, I'm more familiar with the Anglo/Saxon/European culture so I don't generally ask white people unless they have an obvious accent because I want to learn about other cultures. 

 

For example, there is an Asian family at a local library every Monday when I'm there with my two youngest. I'm almost certain they are Chinese (I've been listening to them speak and think I've pinpointed it.). I would LOVE to strike up a conversation with them, but don't want to seem weird or rude since we never interact beyond a smile and a nod. After learning about microaggression, I don't know that I will.

 

I feel like I've just had blinders removed. I never dreamed that my sincere interest in people could come back to bite me or that I was offending someone with my questions.

 

I know how you feel.  I've learned lots about so much from these boards.  Through conversations here, I've learned so much more about people and how different groups feel, but the take-away isn't always great.  I'm pretty shy, but have always forced myself to outgoing and super friendly.  Over the past couple of years of reading here, I've realized I've probably offended people left and right.  Now I'm much more cautious (because I truly want to be kind), and I find that I just don't engage strangers as much as I used to.  It's not really intentional, but I guess all of the knowledge is paralyzing.

[Catwoman]

I think there is a big difference between saying, "Where are you from" and "What is your ethnic background", which is the REAL question, I think, that is intended when people are asking this question. It also helps the questioner to remember that it IS a slightly personal question that might not be welcomed by everyone.

I don't think most people are asking about anyone's ethnic background when they ask, "Where are you from?" They're just making conversation and until recently, "where are you from" has always been considered a pretty safe topic, right up there with talking about the weather.

 

We travel a lot, and are very frequently asked where we are from, particularly when we are in Southern states, because our accent is clearly different. The people aren't trying to be microaggressive; they're just curious.

[creekland]

I don't think most people are asking about anyone's ethnic background when they ask, "Where are you from?" They're just making conversation and until recently, "where are you from" has always been considered a pretty safe topic, right up there with talking about the weather.

 

We travel a lot, and are very frequently asked where we are from, particularly when we are in Southern states, because our accent is clearly different. The people aren't trying to be microaggressive; they're just curious.

 

:iagree:  We were off the beaten track in NM and met a waitress who had never met folks from PA before.  She'd have never known we were if she didn't ask.  We certainly didn't mind!  We had fun figuring out that all important red vs green question she asked!

 

If I had let threads from this board paralyze my interactions... I shudder at the thought!

[Bluegoat]

Or maybe it's just that, historically, there have been more male doctors than female doctors? 

 

(Wonder if there is a difference based on the age of the people making those assumptions.  My mother probably never saw a female doctor until she was well into her 60's; it didn't bother her when she did, but it was a novelty (for lack of a better word) for her at that time.   She might have made the same assumption, but not because she thought men were more competent.  Though no doubt there are people who feel men are more competent and more likely to be doctors.  My father may have been one of them.) 

 

age probably is a factor, or background generally.  People tend to extrapolate from their experience in their visioning, even when their rational thought processes don't do that.  My kids lwys assume doctors are women, because they have never had a male doctor.

[Denise in Florida]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but how is it "microaggression" when the person comes right out and behaves aggressively and rudely toward another person? There is nothing subtle or "micro" about that.

 

I think you and I may have different definitions of microaggression -- and I fully admit that my definition could be wrong. :)

 

 

I KNOW what you mean. :)  It is a relatively new name for one of those ambiguous things that everyone knows exists but doesn't know how to define.  I think the definition is still fluctuating.  

 

To my understanding the child asking the question aggressively is still 'just' asking a question. He is not physically hurting the other child nor is he is shoving them and saying get out of this playground you don't belong.  If you tell his parents to make him stop they could still claim he was just curious and was not hurting anyone.

[Sneezyone]

I don't think most people are asking about anyone's ethnic background when they ask, "Where are you from?" They're just making conversation and until recently, "where are you from" has always been considered a pretty safe topic, right up there with talking about the weather.

 

We travel a lot, and are very frequently asked where we are from, particularly when we are in Southern states, because our accent is clearly different. The people aren't trying to be microaggressive; they're just curious.

 

If someone is curious about ethnicity then they should ask about ethnicity. Where are you from? is imprecise.

 

If you ask my kids where they are from they will look at you like deers in headlights. We've lived in five states and one country and every last one of us was born somewhere else. I really do not enjoy answering that question and it's not a matter of being rude. It's simply a long story.

 

Better/alternative questions might be:

 

What brings you to this area?

How long have you lived in this area?

[EmseB]

There is a difference between sincere interest and micro-aggression. I realize that it's difficult for some people to find that line but many of us manage to walk it just fine.

 

It's the difference between, "Wow, I love your hair, how long did that take?" and "Wow, I love your hair! Can I touch it?" followed by a hand reaching for my child's head. 

 

It's the difference between, "Nice sweatshirt! When did you graduate?" and "Did you really go there?"

 

This made me laugh because I had an old Harvard Business sweatshirt (I don't remember where I got it) and I got that second question all the time.  The answer was, "no."  I guess luckily I didn't know I was supposed to be offended.

[EmseB]

If someone is curious about ethnicity then they should ask about ethnicity. Where are you from? is imprecise.

 

If you ask my kids where they are from they will look at you like deers in headlights. We've lived in five states and one country and every last one of us was born somewhere else. I really do not enjoy answering that question and it's not a matter of being rude. It's simply a long story.

 

Better/alternative questions might be:

 

What brings you to this area?

How long have you lived in this area?

 

I say, "We moved around a lot, but I claim x state."

 

My kids just say where they were born, I don't think they even remotely care about the question itself.

 

Do you honestly expect people to ask precise questions when making small talk?  Or consider them rude if they don't?  Most of the stuff people mention in this thread never even crossed my mind, even if I personally didn't have a "good" answer to their question.  I feel like I can answer where I'm from any way that I like depending on the circumstances.

[Bluegoat]

Really sorry I started this  thread.   I did not realize it was a racial issue.  If I had I never would have started this thread. It gets so tiresome to hear complain about how hard it is these days to have to acknowledge race.

 

OK, I do not understand this.  It seems like you are saying that because some people say it is  racial thing, they are correct, or that they are correct in the way they are applying it?  People can have bogus or even just untrue theories about racism just like they can about anything else.

[Bluegoat]

I can speak to this: yes, it's unfortunate that "aggression" usually implies intent. I think it will be a problem -- for exactly the reasons you describe.

 

However, micro-aggression is a term that is *technical* in nature -- we are borrowing it from sociology. It's an answer to sociologists asking, "How are norms enforced in xyz culture?" (Then systematizing the answers.) Obviously the most clear-cut ways norms are enforced (from greatest to least) are through violence, threats of violence, aggressive behaviour and social aggression (ie shame) -- but in civilized societies we rarely see these except for norms-that-are-laws. The group of behaviours that is "less than" what we would call "perceptible aggression" got to be called "micro" (not discernible to the naked eye) "aggression" (actions which support the norms). Basically they got called micro aggressions because they were *not* overtly aggressive.

 

I don't know though that the definition you have given here really corresponds to the way its being used here, or in  lot of, say, the feminist discussions where it crops up.

 

[creekland]

I say, "We moved around a lot, but I claim x state."

 

My kids just say where they were born, I don't think they even remotely care about the question itself.

 

Do you honestly expect people to ask precise questions when making small talk?  Or consider them rude if they don't?  Most of the stuff people mention in this thread never even crossed my mind, even if I personally didn't have a "good" answer to their question.  I feel like I can answer where I'm from any way that I like depending on the circumstances.

 

We've moved 13 or 14 times since getting married, but have lived here since '97.  My kids were all born in FL, though identify with being raised here.  My ethnic pedigree is pretty much "mutt" (oodles of countries).

 

I can't recall ever having a problem answering "where are you from" questions.  It can be as short or long as the listener wants.  ;)  It all depends upon where the conversation goes.

 

I guess I'm glad I don't get offended easily.  I've no idea why I'm that way TBH.  I'm also glad I have like minded friends in my IRL circle so we don't have to worry about what we say or talk about (or eat or foods offered, etc).

[Bluegoat]

If someone is curious about ethnicity then they should ask about ethnicity. Where are you from? is imprecise.

 

If you ask my kids where they are from they will look at you like deers in headlights. We've lived in five states and one country and every last one of us was born somewhere else. I really do not enjoy answering that question and it's not a matter of being rude. It's simply a long story.

 

Better/alternative questions might be:

 

What brings you to this area?

How long have you lived in this area?

 

This seems to me like microagression towards the inarticulate.

 

In all seriousness though, many people are a little, or  lot, imprecise with language.  It just isn't their strength, or that is what their background has given them.  It seems pretty simple to say "oh, they are asking about my family origins" and take it from there. 

[TammyS]

 

It gets tiring when people insist on over-analyzing every little thing people say, rather than simply taking them at their word and assuming the best of them.

 

 

 

Which has the additional benefit of making any intended insults ineffectual.  You can't insult me if I refuse to be insulted.

[TammyS]

 And when handed that watermelon, they don't know that this other person is not familiar with that trope, and they certainly don't know what the intentions are. If it's been a stressful week, it can be easy to get fed up over a small maybe-racism maybe-not incident.

 

Seriously?  At a picnic?  Watermelon is standard picnic fare, like bread is standard sandwich fare. 

 

If this really happened then the woman who yelled at her was either looking for an excuse to be offended or seriously needs to apologize (and I don't actually care what the back story is,  yelling at someone like that is wrong).

 

[creekland]

Which has the additional benefit of making any intended insults ineffectual.  You can't insult me if I refuse to be insulted.

 

Maybe that's my circle's problem.  None of us know we're supposed to be insulted.

 

I can't count the number of times I've been asked homeschooling questions from multitudes of different people.  Some are probably intending to insult I suppose.  I consider our conversation to be breaking stereotypes they might have.  More than once that's been the result anyway.  I refuse to believe life would be better if I'd just gotten pissed off instead of enjoying the conversation.

[Sneezyone]

I say, "We moved around a lot, but I claim x state."

 

My kids just say where they were born, I don't think they even remotely care about the question itself.

 

Do you honestly expect people to ask precise questions when making small talk?  Or consider them rude if they don't?  Most of the stuff people mention in this thread never even crossed my mind, even if I personally didn't have a "good" answer to their question.  I feel like I can answer where I'm from any way that I like depending on the circumstances.

 

I expect people who say they care about others to act like they do, yes. If you don't really care about the individual you're speaking to, don't ask the question at all. That's not hard.

[TammyS]

  Now in this case "where are you from" is really code for "what kind of asian are you/you look different from everyone else here".  This is a microaggresion.

 

 

 

 

But is that necessarily aggressive?  Couldn't the person just be interested in your dh?  "Oh, you were born in Canada!  Where are your parents from? Why did they decide to come here?  Do they like it here and want to stay or are they hoping to go "home" someday?  Do you have relatives back in ____?  Do you get to visit or do they get to visit you?"

 

I just don't see that as aggressive, I see that as interested.  Where someone is from, or their ancestors, is part of who they are, and those kinds of questions are part of getting to know them.

 

My dh has a grandfather from Germany, a mother from Russia, and other relatives from Poland.  I have relatives from Greece and Germany.  At our gatherings these kinds of questions/discussions could go (and have gone) on all night.

[Sneezyone]

 

In all seriousness though, many people are a little, or  lot, imprecise with language.  It just isn't their strength, or that is what their background has given them.  It seems pretty simple to say "oh, they are asking about my family origins" and take it from there. 

 

Except, I don't know that at all. I don't know what someone's intent is with these sorts of questions. I only know what they ask. It's one thing to say, oh, sorry, I could have phrased that better. It's another thing to be given a perfectly reasonable alternative and say, yeah, that's stupid and not worth my time. I'm just going to wallow in ignorance because YOLO! If that's someone's true feeling, then own it. There's nothing genuine about pretending to care.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Sneezyone

[Ms.Ivy]

Certain whites get the "where are you from" question, too. I'm white, and my husband's family and mine are a mix of Native Americans, and Europeans who immigrated in the 1600s and 1700s. For some reason, we look Slavic. Russians assume my husband is from Georgia, or southern Russia, and people in the grocery store speak to me in Russian all the time. They are always shocked that I don't understand them. Anyway, most of my kids have dark brown hair and brown eyes, but my youngest son popped out with blonde hair and blue eyes. We were in the post office recently when an old guy came up and said to my little guy, "Ah, a little King Putin, huh? How long have you been in California?" I told him that I was a third generation Californian and he was shocked. So ridiculous. It's just rudeness. There are a lot of ways to be rude and a lot of things to be rude about.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Ms.Ivy

[EmseB]

I expect people who say they care about others to act like they do, yes. If you don't really care about the individual you're speaking to, don't ask the question at all. That's not hard.

Uh, small talk, acquaintances, etc. Why take it as someone doesn't care? I think assuming that someone who asks where you're from doesn't care about you because of that language -- "where are you from" -- is really looking to be offended by pretty much anything.

[EmseB]

Except, I don't know that at all. I don't know what someone's intent is with these sorts of questions. I only know what they ask. It's one thing to say, oh, sorry, I could have phrased that better.

Again "where are you from". If that is something people need to apologize for then we are all in trouble.

[Ms.Ivy]

I also think that the question "where are you from" can be either polite or rude, based on the context. Acting shocked when someone says they are from somewhere you didn't expect is rude. But I have been asked many times in introductory conversations where I was from, and felt the person just wanted to get to know me better. It's not the question by itself that is wrong.

[Tanaqui]

I also think, though, that people should try to think twice before assuming the worst of another person when it's a first time offense.

 

We've said it before, we'll say it again: It's not about intent. Very rarely do we say "Welp, that dude's a total bigot." (Sometimes we do. The fried chicken bones all over the White House comment was an actual quote I saw, and when called on it dude tried to say "Oh, no, Southern food!" Yeah, right. Not in that context, and also, I don't exactly consider Obama's personal history and associate it with the South, unlike Bush or Clinton.)

 

I don't think most people are asking about anyone's ethnic background when they ask, "Where are you from?" They're just making conversation and until recently, "where are you from" has always been considered a pretty safe topic, right up there with talking about the weather.

 

Is it possible that it hasn't been as safe a topic as you've assumed, it's just that nobody corrected you? I mean, to draw an analogy here, there are people who say REALLY offensive things (not borderline things that we'd debate) and then, when finally told off, go "Well, nobody ever said anything about it, so it must not really be offensive! After all, my black/gay/woman friends all think that joke is just peachy!"

 

I KNOW what you mean. :)  It is a relatively new name for one of those ambiguous things that everyone knows exists but doesn't know how to define.  I think the definition is still fluctuating.

 

Exactly! And we need words for these concepts, because that allows us to talk about them and to draw patterns. Otherwise you end up with one person going "It really bugs me when people touch my hair" and a whole bunch of other people saying "If that really happened, people would talk about it! You must be making it up! And anyway, it's not that big a deal!"

 

But it's a new word and a new concept, so we're all still feeling out exactly what it means. (And definitely there are people who are new to this concept, and new to the idea of identifying bigotry, and many of them are young, and they go a little overboard. Haven't we all been passionate and zealous about the new things we've just learned?)

 

Most of the stuff people mention in this thread never even crossed my mind, even if I personally didn't have a "good" answer to their question.  I feel like I can answer where I'm from any way that I like depending on the circumstances.

 

Am I wrong in guessing that you probably don't often have conversations with people where they openly doubt your veracity in answering their questions? Because that might sway your opinion.

 

Seriously?  At a picnic?  Watermelon is standard picnic fare, like bread is standard sandwich fare.

 

And I wouldn't walk around at a picnic handing out sandwiches individually either. This strikes me as unusual behavior, enough so that I would be surprised and startled if somebody approached me to specifically give me food or point me towards the food tables.

 

But is that necessarily aggressive?  Couldn't the person just be interested in your dh?  "Oh, you were born in Canada!  Where are your parents from? Why did they decide to come here?  Do they like it here and want to stay or are they hoping to go "home" someday?  Do you have relatives back in ____?  Do you get to visit or do they get to visit you?"

 

Implications inherent this third degree: His parents could not have been born in Canada. Canada, no matter how long they've lived there, isn't "home" to them. The questioner is entitled to hear his life story, even if he's indicated that he's not really comfortable with this direction the conversation is taking.

 

So ridiculous. It's just rudeness. There are a lot of ways to be rude and a lot of things to be rude about.

 

When we lump this in with other forms of rudeness, we are choosing to ignore the subtext.

[38carrots]

Chelli, my understanding is that ONE question is rarely a problem. It might be making conversation, after all. What IS a problem is when you keep up "No, really, where are you REALLY from" when they've already answered you.

 

But why does this need to be re-labeled as "microagression"? It is either plain rude and immature, or depending on the tone of voice, body language etc, plain aggression. What's wrong with calling things their old names?

 

I find this microaggression thing rather unsettling. So to play the same game, I feel that those who insist on labelling plain rudeness or cluelessness as microagression is microaggressive in itself.

 

ETA: But if we choose to distinguish poor manners and microagression, tt is just an excuse to shut people down and make average folks doubt themselves, thinking that they will be perceived offensive by saying something innocuous. It is not enough anymore to be polite and considerate, one also now needs to jump through hoops or plainly shut up.

 

We are disconnected as individuals already, with very little interpersonal communication. We've been losing social skills as the result--FB is full of oversharing, people would rather text than talk on the phone. We are afraid of "strangers." We get upset over some elderly people wanting to touch our babies.

 

This is just encourages more disconnection and fear.

Edited December 4, 2015 by 38carrots

[Ms.Ivy]

I think the word micro aggression is a new word for rudeness, and what used to be called "thoughtfulness" is now called being mindful of the subtext. I wouldn't ask a mom of seven if all her kids were hers, because I known she probably gets that question a lot and it has meaningless conversational value. I also wouldn't ask someone in the park who wore a bindi where they were from, for the same reason. But I would ask a new person at church where they were from, because of the context of building a permanent relationship. Basic thoughtfulness, thinking before you speak, and not asking questions simply to satisfy your own curiousity. Not new concepts, just new vocabulary.

[abcmommy]

There was an actual conversation about the watermelon--I don't remember the details of what started it, but I remember a huge forum discussion (not here, elsewhere) where people were yelling at someone because they had been so racist as to innocently offer a black person watermelon.   The act of doing so was seen as inherently racist whether anyone actually knew of any racial connotation or not.   There was quite a pile-on to a person who had no idea anything could be construed wrongly about it.

 

Sonlight.  2007 or 08.  This is not the way I remember that discussion.  

[Catherine]

I don't think most people are asking about anyone's ethnic background when they ask, "Where are you from?" They're just making conversation and until recently, "where are you from" has always been considered a pretty safe topic, right up there with talking about the weather.

 

We travel a lot, and are very frequently asked where we are from, particularly when we are in Southern states, because our accent is clearly different. The people aren't trying to be microaggressive; they're just curious.

 

I think you are right. The context matters a lot here.  When I've witnessed this question asked, it often seems to be "what is your ethnic background" because it's a person who is clearly American asking someone who by appearance might or might not be American, and no one is traveling at the time.  We are at work or in a home school group or in school.  

 

I think if you are on a trip, and clearly that is the case, then friendly conversation like this means something different. When I've seen the followup question, "No, but where are you REALLY from" it's always been in a setting where small talk about the weather wouldn't really be expected-like in school, or at work.  

 

I also want to clarify what I said earlier about patients talking to the male medical student by default.  I hope you don't assume we called them out on this or made them uncomfortable in any way for doing this-we did not. It's an understandable mistake.  I mentioned it only to point out that people may not recognize their biases.  And have no ill intention at all that is conscious.  That does not mean they don't have biases. 

[Catwoman]

We've said it before, we'll say it again: It's not about intent.

Yes, it is about intent. It's all about intent. If intentions didn't matter, all of us could go around all day long being offended about every little thing because all that mattered was our own perceptions of things. If someone inadvertently says something that bothers you, yet you know her intention was to say something nice and maybe she just phrased it awkwardly (or maybe she phrased it just fine but for some reason you have a problem with her terminology,) you shouldn't get all offended about it and accuse her of microaggression.

 

Let's face it; we can choose to be offended by any number of things every single day. But most of us don't, thank goodness, because we try to assume that most people mean well, even if they occasionally say the wrong thing.

 

I have a friend who gets highly offended every time a man holds a door open for her. She assumes that he is thinking she is a weak woman who is incapable of opening her own doors. Never mind that the same guy may also hold the door for another man; she is convinced he is a jerk. But if I hold a door for her, that's fine because she thinks I'm just being polite. She is making negative assumptions about any man who holds a door for her and I think that is ridiculous. I feel the same way about a lot of this microaggression talk. People are assuming the worst about people based on a single comment or a single action, and I think that is wrong.

 

Is it possible that it hasn't been as safe a topic as you've assumed, it's just that nobody corrected you? I mean, to draw an analogy here, there are people who say REALLY offensive things (not borderline things that we'd debate) and then, when finally told off, go "Well, nobody ever said anything about it, so it must not really be offensive! After all, my black/gay/woman friends all think that joke is just peachy!"

No.

 

It really isn't.

 

Until I read this thread, I had never ever heard anyone say they were offended by someone asking them, "Where are you from?" Seriously. It's a casual question, what we used to call an icebreaker question, that people have always used as a way to start a little conversation with someone. I find it ridiculous that anyone would immediately assume that a friendly person had some sort of hidden meaning behind the question, "Where are you from?" If they say it in a snotty tone or follow it right up with some sort of insult or demand for details, that would be different, but as a casual friendly question, it is unreasonable for someone to be offended by it.

[Catwoman]

I think you are right. The context matters a lot here. When I've witnessed this question asked, it often seems to be "what is your ethnic background" because it's a person who is clearly American asking someone who by appearance might or might not be American, and no one is traveling at the time. We are at work or in a home school group or in school.

 

I think if you are on a trip, and clearly that is the case, then friendly conversation like this means something different. When I've seen the followup question, "No, but where are you REALLY from" it's always been in a setting where small talk about the weather wouldn't really be expected-like in school, or at work.

 

I also want to clarify what I said earlier about patients talking to the male medical student by default. I hope you don't assume we called them out on this or made them uncomfortable in any way for doing this-we did not. It's an understandable mistake. I mentioned it only to point out that people may not recognize their biases. And have no ill intention at all that is conscious. That does not mean they don't have biases.

I agree. :)

 

I think the follow-up question, "Where are you REALLY from?" takes it to a totally different level, and I can understand why someone would be offended by that, especially if the person's tone leads you to believe they aren't just being curious and friendly, and you're not in a casual strike-up-a-casual-conversation situation. That person is putting you in a defensive position, and that's not right.

[creekland]

I mentioned it only to point out that people may not recognize their biases.  And have no ill intention at all that is conscious.  That does not mean they don't have biases. 

 

Everyone has biases.  It's part of being human. We only know what we grow up with and experience.  Our brain purposely creates shortcuts to make its life easier.

 

Responding to biases nicely is part of breaking stereotypes.  ;)

 

Laughing about them later when with IRL friends can be fun.   :coolgleamA:

[regentrude]

Ugh. Can't win. The "where are you from?" thing is bizarre.

I happen to be a first generation immigrant, and since I  still have a slight accent, even after all these years, and I speak with my family in our native language when we are out and about, I get that question a lot.

If we are in our state, I say "we're from xxtown" (and may add "but we're originally from Germany" if it is apparent that this is what the person really wants to know)

If we are in the US in another state, I say "we're from yystate" and may add "but we're originally from Germany".

If we are in another country, I say that we live in the US but are originally from Germany.

My kids would probably respond similarly, and add that their family is originally German.

 

It never occurred to me that I should feel offended because, after all, we are American citizens.

 

I have a lot of students with different ethnic backgrounds. Many of them like to talk about where their families are from. It saddens me that, apparently, I am committing a microaggression when I ask a student about his family heritage. Why would this be construed as such?

I guess taking an interest in people and their backgrounds is politically incorrect. How weird.

Edited December 4, 2015 by regentrude

[Bluegoat]

Except, I don't know that at all. I don't know what someone's intent is with these sorts of questions. I only know what they ask. It's one thing to say, oh, sorry, I could have phrased that better. It's another thing to be given a perfectly reasonable alternative and say, yeah, that's stupid and not worth my time. I'm just going to wallow in ignorance because YOLO! If that's someone's true feeling, then own it. There's nothing genuine about pretending to care.

 

 

You don't know that they are inarticulate, but you know they are pretending to care?  Not phrasing everything the way you would is not ignorance, but demanding that of others is very controlling.  Why should they "own" asking something honestly if less than precisely, rather than you owning that you tend to read in negative connotations where there are none?

 

If you aren't sure what people are asking, the sensible thing to do is say,"do you mean where my ancestors came from" or just "what is it you mean?" 

[Jenny in Florida]

I think one of the things I'm struggling with is the contradiction I see between "Let's honor everyone's perspective and work hard not to offend" and "Let's honor only the perspectives of people with whom we agree or whom we perceive as progressive and sensitive enough to let their perspectives count."

 

Let's take my story about being told I'm anti-feminist because I shared my personal feelings based on my personal experiences. I am, after all, a woman. Been one for a long time -- longer, in fact, than the person who took me to task for my comments. I'm an actual representative member of the class whose experiences were being discussed. However, because my personal feelings and experiences don't happen to match what the other person has read should be the feelings and experiences of people in my demographic group, I've now been told that I am not only wrong and microaggressive towards other women but also must, on some level, hate myself because I don't feel badly enough about things.

 

In other words, in order to avoid potentially offending someone else, I am supposed to deny my own feelings and experiences.

 

But I'm the one being aggressive?

 

I would very much like someone to explain to me how that kind of interaction is fair, meaningful or productive.

[Little Women]

Sonlight.  2007 or 08.  This is not the way I remember that discussion.  

 

I also heard another person say she had been piled on in this discussion.   As with many things over there, I suspect there are varying opinions of how much negativity it takes to constitute "yelling," but it made me afraid to say anything, and apparently at least one other person also felt yelled at.   One can do with that what one wishes.  :)

[Jenny in Florida]

I have a lot of students with different ethnic backgrounds. Many of them like to talk about where their families are from. It saddens me that, apparently, I am committing a microaggression when I ask a student about his family heritage. Why would this be construed as such?

I guess taking an interest in people and their backgrounds is politically incorrect. How weird.

 

Right.

 

On the one hand, we're supposed to recognize and respect everyone's differences -- which I'm completely on board with -- but on the other hand, we're not actually supposed admit that we notice them.

 

I cannot see how these kinds of rules are going to accomplish what I would have assumed would be the goal -- meaningful and courteous communication. People who aren't already on board with the basic idea are just going to become scornful and angry, and those of us who do care and would like to do the right thing but keep being told we're failing will just quit talking at all.

[abcmommy]

I also heard another person say she had been piled on in this discussion.   As with many things over there, I suspect there are varying opinions of how much negativity it takes to constitute "yelling," but it made me afraid to say anything, and apparently at least one other person also felt yelled at.   One can do with that what one wishes.   :)

I feel fairly confident what was being discussed was not an incident at a party but the GOP mailing depicting Obama eating watermelon and fried chicken.  Perhaps I am remembering a different discussion than you are.  Many people insisted it was not racism at work or that associating Obama with watermelon was not inherently racist.  I believe that was... delusional at best.

 

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2008/10/16/30814/obama-bucks/

[creekland]

Ugh. Can't win. The "where are you from?" thing is bizarre.

I happen to be a first generation immigrant, and since I  still have a slight accent, even after all these years, and I speak with my family in our native language when we are out and about, I get that question a lot.

If we are in our state, I say "we're from xxtown" (and may add "but we're originally from Germany" if it is apparent that this is what the person really wants to know)

If we are in the US in another state, I say "we're from yystate" and may add "but we're originally from Germany".

If we are in another country, I say that we live in the US but are originally from Germany.

My kids would probably respond similarly, and add that their family is originally German.

 

It never occurred to me that I should feel offended because, after all, we are American citizens.

 

I have a lot of students with different ethnic backgrounds. Many of them like to talk about where their families are from. It saddens me that, apparently, I am committing a microaggression when I ask a student about his family heritage. Why would this be construed as such?

I guess taking an interest in people and their backgrounds is politically incorrect. How weird.

 

Just so you know... if you ever get to my part of the country, you'd be welcome at our lunch table (where many of my IRL friend discussions take place).

 

You'd be welcome in any of my IRL friend circles - not just the main one at school.

[regentrude]

Just so you know... if you ever get to my part of the country, you'd be welcome at our lunch table (where many of my IRL friend discussions take place).

You'd be welcome in any of my IRL friend circles - not just the main one at school.

 

Thanks. And I promise you can ask me where I'm from :-)

 

 

[Ms.Ivy]

Ugh. Can't win. The "where are you from?" thing is bizarre.

I happen to be a first generation immigrant, and since I still have a slight accent, even after all these years, and I speak with my family in our native language when we are out and about, I get that question a lot.

If we are in our state, I say "we're from xxtown" (and may add "but we're originally from Germany" if it is apparent that this is what the person really wants to know)

If we are in the US in another state, I say "we're from yystate" and may add "but we're originally from Germany".

If we are in another country, I say that we live in the US but are originally from Germany.

My kids would probably respond similarly, and add that their family is originally German.

 

It never occurred to me that I should feel offended because, after all, we are American citizens.

.

You should feel victimized. And double victimized if a non-German celebrates Oktoberfest. You could be microagressed AND appropriated!

[Little Women]

I feel fairly confident what was being discussed was not an incident at a party but the GOP mailing depicting Obama eating watermelon and fried chicken.  Perhaps I am remembering a different discussion than you are.  Many people insisted it was not racism at work or that associating Obama with watermelon was not inherently racist.  I believe that was... delusional at best.

 

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2008/10/16/30814/obama-bucks/

 

I don't remember how it started.   If this is the way it started, then it does sound not just "microaggressive" but downright offensive.   What I do remember is the very heated conversation that ensued and the way other people in the discussion were accused of being racist because they did not think that watermelon in and of itself was racist.    (FWIW, I never saw the mailing, either, though I would not have understood it at that time if I had, until after the conversation.  I also don't remember fried chicken in the conversation.)   

[creekland]

Thanks. And I promise you can ask me where I'm from :-)

 

We will.  We know the backgrounds of everyone.  ;)

 

You'd be let in on our secrets too...

 

It wouldn't take too long before you knew the religion, diet, and political thoughts of each of us too - and those all vary considerably!  Amazingly enough, we all still get along.  We may be too oblivious to know we're not supposed to be able to do this.

[Bluegoat]

Everyone has biases.  It's part of being human. We only know what we grow up with and experience.  Our brain purposely creates shortcuts to make its life easier.

 

Responding to biases nicely is part of breaking stereotypes.   ;)

 

Laughing about them later when with IRL friends can be fun.   :coolgleamA:

 

I would like to dd to this - yes, we all have biases, including people who feel like someone has hostile intent, or is making assumptions about them.

 

Those kinds of feelings can and often are the result of biases and like most biases, they usually come out of real experiences.  Our brains are big sorting machines, looking for patterns, looking to project them onto the world round us in order to make sense of it.  This is not  process we can really control, it is automatic, like breathing.  But - it is prone to error. 

 

The only way to deal with those errors is to put the patterns or generalizations, rationally, to the test, and try to discard those that are incorrect. 

 

That is the problem, inappropriate pattern recognition or taking the wrong generalization from a real pattern.  It is  problem if it makes people feel baldly, or if your own errors make you feel badly.  I'm not sure why one of these would take precedence over the other, or why we would assume ll the errors will be on the part of one group.

 

Recognizing a real pattern, and making a valid generalization about it, is not based, even if it does make some people feel uncomfortable. (Though it might be inappropriate to mention it, depending on the setting.)

 

I'm perplexed that people are thinking this kind of bias is what microagression is about.  From what I understand it, it is something rather different.

 

[EmilyGF]

Right.

 

On the one hand, we're supposed to recognize and respect everyone's differences -- which I'm completely on board with -- but on the other hand, we're not actually supposed admit that we notice them.

 

I cannot see how these kinds of rules are going to accomplish what I would have assumed would be the goal -- meaningful and courteous communication. People who aren't already on board with the basic idea are just going to become scornful and angry, and those of us who do care and would like to do the right thing but keep being told we're failing will just quit talking at all.

Because you can't offend someone you don't interact with... feeling like you are always walking on eggshells makes it hard to have the conversations that matter. :-( I'm not advocating for this approach, just being a realist.

 

Emily

[Little Women]

Everyone has biases.  It's part of being human. We only know what we grow up with and experience.  Our brain purposely creates shortcuts to make its life easier.

 

Responding to biases nicely is part of breaking stereotypes.   ;)

 

It seems to me that in many cases, both sides may be guilty of responding with stereotypes.   

 A person could ask "where are you from" and mean "you aren't like me so I'm marginalizing you."

Or they could mean "You might have story worth hearing."

Or they could even mean, "I grew up in a foreign country and am always looking for people who might be from there."  (I've used it myself this way a lot.   Guess I'm not supposed to do that any more.)

 

And a person could hear that and think, "they really want to know."

Or, "finally, an American who cares about me and my background."

Or, "they are so offensive, presuming I don't fit in."

 

But in the responses, as well as in the question, there may be biases and stereotypes.   A person who presumes an aggressive intent is just as guilty of stereotyping as one who actually has an aggressive intent, and has just as much need to respond with courtesy.   

 

 

I have a lot of students with different ethnic backgrounds. Many of them like to talk about where their families are from. It saddens me that, apparently, I am committing a microaggression when I ask a student about his family heritage. Why would this be construed as such?

I guess taking an interest in people and their backgrounds is politically incorrect. How weird.

 

One of the saddest things to me in this whole conversation is the statement that there are many people from places like Cameroon or Mexico who are hurt and feel uncared for because nobody is giving them opportunity to talk about their homelands.   The fact that one person might misinterpret my genuinely meant question leaves me not asking the very thing that would make another person feel appreciated and cared for!      The one who loses the most in this discussion is the lonely immigrant, who shares the same ethnic background as the person who feels aggressed against where none was meant. 

 

I think one of the things I'm struggling with is the contradiction I see between "Let's honor everyone's perspective and work hard not to offend" and "Let's honor only the perspectives of people with whom we agree or whom we perceive as progressive and sensitive enough to let their perspectives count."

 

Let's take my story about being told I'm anti-feminist because I shared my personal feelings based on my personal experiences. I am, after all, a woman. Been one for a long time -- longer, in fact, than the person who took me to task for my comments. I'm an actual representative member of the class whose experiences were being discussed. However, because my personal feelings and experiences don't happen to match what the other person has read should be the feelings and experiences of people in my demographic group, I've now been told that I am not only wrong and microaggressive towards other women but also must, on some level, hate myself because I don't feel badly enough about things.

 

In other words, in order to avoid potentially offending someone else, I am supposed to deny my own feelings and experiences.

 

But I'm the one being aggressive?

 

I would very much like someone to explain to me how that kind of interaction is fair, meaningful or productive.

 

I have a really hard time with this, too.      

 

It seems to me that there is an inherent lack of honor for people who are different if we cannot notice, voice, and applaud those differences.   Whatever happened to acknowledging that people are different, and different is a good thing?   Whatever happened to presuming that most people mean well, and being willing to build from what we have?   The idea that because a person is in an "oppressor" category, they will never be able to relate to or really care for those who "aren't" both dehumanizes and tears us apart.  

 

Usually, for most of us, a question is just a question.   

Usually, for most of us,  a conversation is just an attempt to connect, not to get power over another.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Little Women