Sexism with complaints?

[Katy]

Has anyone noticed that people (and companies) are much better at taking complaints from men than from women?  I complain about something and people treat me like a witch, argue, and get rude. If DH complains about something, or if I even say he's unhappy about something, the response is an apology.

 

I can't figure out if I'm especially abrasive when I complain (I'm careful not to be, but maybe I don't understand what I'm projecting)...  or if it's just sexism.  Passively complaining by referencing DH gets much better results..

[Angie in VA]

I've noticed the same thing, Katy. I don't play the sexism card often, but it might be just that.

[SKL]

Yes, I think women's complaints are heard differently from men's, but I don't think it's intentional.

 

I do think we (on average) tend to have a more whiney sounding voice when we "complain" (or when we present, request, etc.)  It's biological, but if you intentionally speak in a lower voice, it will project better.  But that won't solve the whole problem.

 

Also, we (on average) tend to use more words and to be less direct about what we want.  We (on average) tend to sound apologetic when we make a request, which makes the other party think maybe they should be annoyed.

 

But, there probably is also a factor of people being used to the idea that women bring up petty things while men bring up "important" things.  Which is of course not entirely fair, but it probably comes from somewhere.  Like, when I was a kid, it was my mom who would nag about things that aren't going to kill anyone.  My dad would correct me only rarely, but about important things.  So, do I now assume a man's complaint at work is more likely to be "important"?  I don't think so (I've worked with enough fools and enough value-adders of both genders), but I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case for many people.

[Carrie12345]

I've never really thought about it that way.

I can say that I am very demanding of results, while dh is more likely to back down, but I try to push him to "do it my way" instead of doing it myself.  Mostly because I don't like to look like a b***h, whether I am truly being one or not.  Which could possibly stem from an expectation of sexism.

[Carrie12345]

Adding, I do still handle health insurance claims myself.  That absolutely requires being able to be a b***h!

[Katy]

Having worked in insurance, yes, that does require being a b***h!  Sometimes it's not the customer service rep's fault though.  One company I worked for routinely would deny all claims over a certain dollar amount until the person referenced a lawyer or the insurance commissioner. I couldn't work there for long.  I won't say who the company is, only that they are large and have had several executives go to prison for white collar issues like that.

[Spryte]

Having worked in insurance, yes, that does require being a b***h! Sometimes it's not the customer service rep's fault though. One company I worked for routinely would deny all claims over a certain dollar amount until the person referenced a lawyer or the insurance commissioner. I couldn't work there for long. I won't say who the company is, only that they are large and have had several executives go to prison for white collar issues like that.

Are you really Mr. Incredible, in disguise?

 

I can't believe that really happens. So unethical.

[marbel]

I do most of the complaining around here so I couldn't say if my husband would get better results than I would.  I also don't find I have to complain too often. But I worked in customer service for years and I knew what made me want to help a customer and what made me not care so much.  Also, of course, I had to learn to discern legitimate complaints from.. ones that were not.   So, I know how to complain effectively.   I can't think of a time when I couldn't get the results I wanted. 

[Katy]

I do most of the complaining around here so I couldn't say if my husband would get better results than I would.  I also don't find I have to complain too often. But I worked in customer service for years and I knew what made me want to help a customer and what made me not care so much.  Also, of course, I had to learn to discern legitimate complaints from.. ones that were not.   So, I know how to complain effectively.   I can't think of a time when I couldn't get the results I wanted. 

 

It's not about results...  I can get them.  But DH gets them with much less attitude and threats.

[MaeFlowers]

Yes, I think women's complaints are heard differently from men's, but I don't think it's intentional.

 

I do think we (on average) tend to have a more whiney sounding voice when we "complain" (or when we present, request, etc.) It's biological, but if you intentionally speak in a lower voice, it will project better. But that won't solve the whole problem.

 

Also, we (on average) tend to use more words and to be less direct about what we want. We (on average) tend to sound apologetic when we make a request, which makes the other party think maybe they should be annoyed.

 

But, there probably is also a factor of people being used to the idea that women bring up petty things while men bring up "important" things. Which is of course not entirely fair, but it probably comes from somewhere. Like, when I was a kid, it was my mom who would nag about things that aren't going to kill anyone. My dad would correct me only rarely, but about important things. So, do I now assume a man's complaint at work is more likely to be "important"? I don't think so (I've worked with enough fools and enough value-adders of both genders), but I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case for many people.

I agree.

In grad school, I took a class where we studied gender differences in the workplace. Women and men approach situations differently and men tend to be more direct and project more confidence. I think that is part of it. I also agree that women tend to nag more and it kind of creates the crying wolf syndrome.

I do experience this, though. There are many times that I have asked dh to handle things because I know he will get a better response. Oddly, it also depends on who answers the phone. I tend to find men much more helpful than women and I don't know what's up with that.

[Laura Corin]

Are you really Mr. Incredible, in disguise?

 

I can't believe that really happens. So unethical.

 

I had an insurance company string me a long for a year until I said that I would be going to the ombudsman unless they settled within a month.  At which point, they started to push me to sign all the papers and give them the details so that they could cut a (fair) cheque.

[Pawz4me]

One of the best things I ever learned is to say "That's not acceptable" in a calm and emotionless tone. ;)

[Bluegoat]

I think this is probably true, but I tend to agree with those who say that women often communicate differently.  I noticed this when I was first in the army and was often the only woman in my group - my communication style was different, and tended to be received differently. In some ways I think it was better, but, it didn't always get my point made, so I found that sometimes it was better to modify.

 

And when I have worked in service, I've found complaints made by women tend to be very different.  Some men were real pricks, but it was generally a pretty straightforward prickishness.  With women, I often felt I was being intimidated.

 

Unfortunately, if people are in the service industry, it is hard for the experiences of thousands of interactions to fail to shape perception, even if they try to treat people as individuals.  In this instance, I think that adopting a male approach is probably helpful - for making complaints straightforward, firm, and unemotional is the best bet IMO.

 

 

[Pam in CT]

My daughters both lol'ed Jennifer Lawrence's comments last month on this subject, especially this riff on how a woman would have to couch famous kvetches throughout history without coming off as being b!tchy, i.e.:

 

 

From a man: "Give me liberty or give me death!"

 

From a woman: "Dave, if I could, I could just — I just really feel like if we had liberty it would be terrific, and the alternative would just be awful, you know? That's just how it strikes me. I don't know."

 

 

From a man: "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"

 

From a woman: "I'm sorry, Mikhail, if I could? Didn't mean to cut you off there. Can we agree that this wall maybe isn't quite doing what it should be doing? Just looking at everything everyone's been saying, it seems like we could consider removing it. Possibly. I don't know, what does the room feel?"

 

:lol:

 

[Bluegoat]

My daughters both lol'ed Jennifer Lawrence's comments last month on this subject, especially this riff on how a woman would have to couch famous kvetches throughout history without coming off as being b!tchy, i.e.:

 

 

From a man: "Give me liberty or give me death!"

 

From a woman: "Dave, if I could, I could just — I just really feel like if we had liberty it would be terrific, and the alternative would just be awful, you know? That's just how it strikes me. I don't know."

 

 

From a man: "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"

 

From a woman: "I'm sorry, Mikhail, if I could? Didn't mean to cut you off there. Can we agree that this wall maybe isn't quite doing what it should be doing? Just looking at everything everyone's been saying, it seems like we could consider removing it. Possibly. I don't know, what does the room feel?"

 

:lol:

 

This is very funny, but I think actually this is often what happens, and it is those wishy-washy demands that are actually annoying.  I'd just as soon retch as hear how someone feels liberty is terrific.

[SKL]

Yeah, or in a hotel, [after waiting to be noticed] "excuse me, I noticed there doesn't seem to be a coffee maker in my room, do you have any extras?  Would you mind sending one up when you get a chance?  Thanks, sorry to be such a pain."  (and the request may or may not be filled by next morning)

 

vs. "I need a coffe maker in room 305.  When can I get it?"

 

With age, I tend more and more toward direct.  But I admit I spent many years of my life apologizing for existing and for having needs.

[Pam in CT]

This is very funny, but I think actually this is often what happens, and it is those wishy-washy demands that are actually annoying.  I'd just as soon retch as hear how someone feels liberty is terrific.

 

Well, yes, but it really does cut both ways.  Remember the furor over Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella's advice that women NOT lean in and ask for a raise, but rather sit back and wait, ladylike, for the system to see and acknowledge them?

 

To his very great credit, he realized quickly that he'd spoken out of a blind spot and that he'd never advise men the same way, and said as much.

 

But was revealing that at the highest levels there is a difference in how women pursuing their interests are perceived, and men doing the exact same thing.

[SKL]

We all know women who are all feminine and yet strong enough to kick anyone's butt.  I don't think femininity takes anything away from a woman who knows her worth.

[wendy not in HI]

I'm not sure it is a man/vs woman thing, but I do know my dh is just better at talking to people.  I get easily frustrated and have to write things down to remember to say what I want to say, where my dh stays calm and can continue to get help and explanations beyond the point where I would have given up and hung up the phone.  

 

I have a good woman friend, who is really good at getting results. I have noticed that she doesn't apologize for bothering people, (I always apologize, I wish I didn't do that) she asks for help and isn't embarrassed to ask (I am terribly embarrassed to ask for directions or help, I don't know why)  and she gets what she needs.  Sometimes I want to take notes when I'm around her because she is so good at getting what she needs and getting people to do what she wants.  She is great on a committee because she can delegate really well and get others to want to help by asking those good questions...

 

Anyway, just wanted to chime in that I think it's more of a personality thing.  Some people are better at complaining and getting what they need - man or woman - doesn't matter. 

[forty-two]

My daughters both lol'ed Jennifer Lawrence's comments last month on this subject, especially this riff on how a woman would have to couch famous kvetches throughout history without coming off as being b!tchy, i.e.:

 

 

From a man: "Give me liberty or give me death!"

 

From a woman: "Dave, if I could, I could just — I just really feel like if we had liberty it would be terrific, and the alternative would just be awful, you know? That's just how it strikes me. I don't know."

 

 

From a man: "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"

 

From a woman: "I'm sorry, Mikhail, if I could? Didn't mean to cut you off there. Can we agree that this wall maybe isn't quite doing what it should be doing? Just looking at everything everyone's been saying, it seems like we could consider removing it. Possibly. I don't know, what does the room feel?"

 

:lol:

 

 

This is very funny, but I think actually this is often what happens, and it is those wishy-washy demands that are actually annoying.  I'd just as soon retch as hear how someone feels liberty is terrific.

 

As I read that, I was thinking that the men's statements and women's statements aren't really equivalent - a big part of the difference in tone is the difference in *audience*.   I can relate to that way of voicing disagreement - softening and backing up in order to not cause offence - but at least in my circles, that tone is used among friends and family, people you have a relationship with and that way of approaching disagreements is intended to indicate that the relationship is more important than the disagreement (although there are ways to be clear with both the disagreement and the importance of the relationship - "hiding" the disagreement under a lot of wiggle words is not the only, or best, way to do it).  The men's statements are public, polarizing statements (and I bet they pissed people off and got themselves called bastards) - and if they'd used the same tone and words to speak to their family and friends, I'd bet they'd not be received well :lol:. 

 

"Sally, make me my dinner!"

"Give me my expense report or give me death!"

 

 

I do think women experience pressure to not disagree openly in public - so that, unlike those quoted men, who spoke that way in their public life but hopefully not in private, women feel that pressure to "not be bitchy" even when the situation calls for it.  I don't know how much is internal versus external pressure to avoid disagreement (there are men who'd not want to be confrontational either).

[Katy]

Funny about JLaw.  A few weeks ago I was at the grocery store and a few kids (maybe college age?  Maybe skipping high school?) came up and asked if I was a nice, nonviolent person. Alarm bells of intuition were going off.  They were laughing too hard and their skin was a funny shade of purplish red and it looked like they were on drugs.

 

I said, "No, not particularly.  I'm violent as I need to be as often it's called for."  I also said I wasn't interested in whatever it was they were selling. They disappeared.

 

Now, my most frequent description by friends is "sweet" followed by "smart."  Short of wrestling with siblings for the remote control as a teen, I've never been in a fight in my life.   But a little voice told me if I said I was nice those kids were going to use it to try and manipulate me, like neurolinguistic programming or something.  "Nice" is usually code for "no boundaries."  I decided then that if that situation ever arises again my answer will be, "No, I'm a heinous b***h as often as I need to be."  Even though in most cases that's the last energy I want to put out into the world.

 

When I was in high school I worked for a clothing store.  I'd have women say they couldn't buy something they seemed to want because their husband wouldn't let them.  I thought that was ridiculous. But now I wonder if they really meant no, it wasn't quite what they were looking for, but blamed their husband because it was easier.  Because today, when a condescending and rude customer service rep heard that it was DH that had the problem, not me, her attitude changed remarkably. I think I might become the woman that used to disgust me in the future, and blame all issues on him. Which sort of bugs me.  But would also make my life easier.

[SKL]

Well, some women do have this issue at home too.  They get frustrated and angry, but they can't bring themselves to out and say what they want.  People are supposed to know what they want, dangit.

 

This brings to mind the way my sister talks to her preschool-aged kids.  To "correct" ill behavior, she goes on a long tirade about all things exasperating; but I never hear her just say "you may not ____."  Imagine her surprise when the behavior is repeated.  :P

[SparklyUnicorn]

Are you referring to work?  Or just in general?

 

 

[Garga]

Women say, "I'm sorry," too much and often don't get to the point. 

 

I worked in an office with a bunch of women and one man.  Our work was passed to each other electronically.  Our male coworker typed as few words as possible to give out work.  "Assess this."  The women would type lots of words, "Please assess this when you have the time and let me know if you have any trouble.  Thanks."

 

The women in the office complained that Frank was "mean."  It used to drive him bonkers.

 

Women often expect you to read their mind.  My MIL went on an overnight trip this past weekend.  She asked my sons to come and feed her outdoor cats for her when she's gone.  She said, "They can come on Saturday night, but they don't have to come on Sunday morning because that's just too much to fit into a church morning..."  She said it over and over.  And over.  But I haaaaaate games.  So I took her at her word.  On Sat night, the boys found a little letter reminding them how to feed much to feed the cats, and it had on it, "And if you happen to come on Sunday morning, can you feed the fish, too?"  My boys didn't tell me that part until late on Sunday morning when we had almost arrived at church and it was too late to do anything.  But you know what? I wouldn't have done anything anyway.  If you want me to come on Sunday morning JUST ASK.  The dancing around the issue drives me bonkers.  I will take you at your word and I will not search for hidden meanings.  If it makes me rude, then so be it.  If she needed us to come Sunday morning, then she should have asked us to come Sunday morning.  I know she didn't want to impose, but I just don't get subtle requests like that.  Or if I get them, they annoy me so I ignore them.

 

My dh talks too much.  He will talk and talk and talk and ever get to the point.  (Sort of like his mom, above.)  I tune him out and I wonder if others do, too.  So, I think he might not get as good service as if he'd just get to the point.  He likes to say lots of things like, "Well, I might be wrong, but..."  After watching him do that, I'm trying not to do that in my own communications.  I do think that women do that more often than men, though my husband does it, too.

 

 

[Garga]

However, with all that said about how women often communicate with lots of words and appologies, I think that people respond faster to men, no matter what.

 

I was at a conference with a lot of speakers.  The first few speakers were women.  When they took the mic, they had to work hard to get everyone's attention, and even after they had almost everyone's attention, there were still a few people in the back carrying on conversations for a minute or two.

 

Then a man took the mic.  He said, "Hello," into the mic and the room went dead silent. 

 

Soooo irritating.

[Hwin]

My husband's so mean on the phone. It's mortifying. But he gets results.

 

Once a telemarketer called and asked if there was any chance she could speak to him. Me: "No, it's your lucky day. Bye!"

 

 

[Katy]

Are you referring to work?  Or just in general?

 

General. 

 

Today's situation was with a service company we employ.  We've nearly fired them several times before, and they screwed up again, and DH had enough.  But he was in meetings most of the day so I was the one on the phone.  We ended up firing them anyway, but their attitude about the problem was worlds different the second DH got involved. They didn't respond to my voicemail, he left one in between meetings and all of the sudden their attitude changed. This is not the first time I've noticed this.  If I'm not careful I'll become one of those spineless women who has DH deal with all confrontation, simply because his results are better than mine. 

 

I only get the sort of response he does when I mention "lawyer" or "Better Business Bureau."

[Liz CA]

Yeah, or in a hotel, [after waiting to be noticed] "excuse me, I noticed there doesn't seem to be a coffee maker in my room, do you have any extras?  Would you mind sending one up when you get a chance?  Thanks, sorry to be such a pain."  (and the request may or may not be filled by next morning)

 

vs. "I need a coffe maker in room 305.  When can I get it?"

 

With age, I tend more and more toward direct.  But I admit I spent many years of my life apologizing for existing and for having needs.

 

And this is all too often how women come across - intentionally or unintentionally. I can totally relate.

[Word Nerd]

I haven't experienced that, but whenever possible, I handle customer service issues in writing. That may make a difference versus talking on the phone or in person.

[brehon]

I don't know. However, my dh has been known to say to especially recalcitrant CS reps, "Look, Ms/man, don't make me get my wife. You *really* want to work with me."

[lllll]

nm

Edited December 2, 2015 by ^ 022

[Element]

Difficult people seem to be equally unhelpful to both Dh and me. One time, Dh thought he'd be helpful and take over my end of a long and fruitless discussion with Comcast over a late relative's account. He wasn't able to get any better results than I was getting.

 

I don't think I complain, if that makes a difference. I ask for a specific resolution to a problem. It's not something I feel emotional about. I'm an ENTP and he's an ISFP, so maybe that balances out the gender bias somewhat!

[brehon]

Women say, "I'm sorry," too much and often don't get to the point.

 

I worked in an office with a bunch of women and one man. Our work was passed to each other electronically. Our male coworker typed as few words as possible to give out work. "Assess this." The women would type lots of words, "Please assess this when you have the time and let me know if you have any trouble. Thanks."

 

The women in the office complained that Frank was "mean." It used to drive him bonkers.

 

Women often expect you to read their mind. My MIL went on an overnight trip this past weekend. She asked my sons to come and feed her outdoor cats for her when she's gone. She said, "They can come on Saturday night, but they don't have to come on Sunday morning because that's just too much to fit into a church morning..." She said it over and over. And over. But I haaaaaate games. So I took her at her word. On Sat night, the boys found a little letter reminding them how to feed much to feed the cats, and it had on it, "And if you happen to come on Sunday morning, can you feed the fish, too?" My boys didn't tell me that part until late on Sunday morning when we had almost arrived at church and it was too late to do anything. But you know what? I wouldn't have done anything anyway. If you want me to come on Sunday morning JUST ASK. The dancing around the issue drives me bonkers. I will take you at your word and I will not search for hidden meanings. If it makes me rude, then so be it. If she needed us to come Sunday morning, then she should have asked us to come Sunday morning. I know she didn't want to impose, but I just don't get subtle requests like that. Or if I get them, they annoy me so I ignore them.

 

My dh talks too much. He will talk and talk and talk and ever get to the point. (Sort of like his mom, above.) I tune him out and I wonder if others do, too. So, I think he might not get as good service as if he'd just get to the point. He likes to say lots of things like, "Well, I might be wrong, but..." After watching him do that, I'm trying not to do that in my own communications. I do think that women do that more often than men, though my husband does it, too.

I can completely relate to Frank. My professional emails are brief and to the point. People know exactly what the email is about and what I need or want them to do. No fluff. Most of my colleagues appreciate that; some don't. Meh.

 

Also, I recently had a male supervisor get on me about "yelling" to make my point during a mandatory continuing ed day at work. I was too bitchy, apparently. I looked at him and said that part of his job was to help maintain order and set a good example. So, talking over me and ignoring me when I was attempting to get everyone's attention was probably a poor example of leadership. I also told him that I was a classically trained singer and had no need of yelling. It was hard on the throat. I explained that I was projecting and he should learn the difference. Went over like a lead balloon, let me tell you. My (male) boss also happened to overhear the exchange and backed me.

[abba12]

When I was in high school I worked for a clothing store.  I'd have women say they couldn't buy something they seemed to want because their husband wouldn't let them.  I thought that was ridiculous. But now I wonder if they really meant no, it wasn't quite what they were looking for, but blamed their husband because it was easier.  Because today, when a condescending and rude customer service rep heard that it was DH that had the problem, not me, her attitude changed remarkably. I think I might become the woman that used to disgust me in the future, and blame all issues on him. Which sort of bugs me.  But would also make my life easier.

 

Yep, I totally do this. My husband has TOLD me to do it. Putting the blame on him takes the focus off me, and since he's not there to argue, and no one would tell a woman to disregard and 'disobey' her husband, it helps SO much.

 

I'm not a wishy-washy-apologetic type either. On the phone, I can be very insistent,  getting passed onto supervisors and stuff, and making sure things get done. But I have a much harder time in person, so falling back on my husband as an excuse to deflect pressure from myself is very helpful. 

[Bluegoat]

I do think men vs women's voices have an impact on how people perceive them in interactions.  For that matter, I tend to take baritones more seriously than tenors.  I have no idea why, but my sense is that its a fairly deep-seated thing rather than something learned.

[brehon]

I do think men vs women's voices have an impact on how people perceive them in interactions. For that matter, I tend to take baritones more seriously than tenors. I have no idea why, but my sense is that its a fairly deep-seated thing rather than something learned.

No one takes tenors seriously. ;)

[Bluegoat]

No one takes tenors seriously. ;)

 

Except perhaps the tenors themselves.

[Guest]

I don't aologize ever (in complaints/critisisms/suggestions/strangers I have not injured) and DH definitely gets way more credit for talky facing ppl than I do.

 

And holy geezy Peet if he doesn't get immediate results, you'd think it's the end of the world.

 

BALLS to the idea that "well if women would talk like men they'd be better respected."

 

How about if an appreciable number of half of the English-speaking population speaks a certain way EVERYONE JUST DEAL WITH IT and don't be jerks? Use tone of voice to choose your mate all you want, but for the love of everything holy, a higher-pitched voice doesn't mean I didn't order this fracking burrito and also don't know how yelp works. snap snap bring me my enchilada, mysogynist waiter! If it's agression you respomd to, let's *do* thisssss.

[Guest]

For me, I think part of the problem is that I very much despise conflict and bad feelings. I don't want anyone to be hurt or upset and I don't want to speak as if I know all and could not possibly be mistaken.

 

So, here's an imaginary situation and how I would probably communicate about it vs. What Dh would probably say. Say my phone is new, but the battery only last for three hours. So I go in and say,

 

"Yes, I'm hoping you can help me. See, my phone is only two months old, but the battery does not last as long as I would expect it to. I wonder if there is something wrong with the battery or if it should be replaced (and I mean at no charge, but I probably didn't say so)."

 

Phone guy: "Are you letting it run down to less than 10% before you charge it?"

 

Me: "Well no...it wouldn't be good for me to do that, because then it will run out of charge during the day..."

 

Phone guy: "Do you have a car charger? You need a car charger. Here. $68.99. Plus tax. Have a nice day!"

 

dH in the same situation.

 

"Yeah, Hi. I bought this brand-new phone, but the battery sucks. It's defective. I want a new one. I can't do business with this piece of junk cutting out by 12:30."

 

Phone guy: "Oh, we're sorry sir. Yes, that is certainly wrong. Have a new battery. Here, have a 'Honk if you love Verizon' bumpersticker as well. Have a nice day!"

[Carrie12345]

I do think men vs women's voices have an impact on how people perceive them in interactions.  For that matter, I tend to take baritones more seriously than tenors.  I have no idea why, but my sense is that its a fairly deep-seated thing rather than something learned.

 

Voices definitely do play a part, now that I think back to a recent phone experience.  It may not be fair, but I'll put myself out there and admit I was NOT comfortable discussing my upcoming gyno appointment with a receptionist that sounded like a 5yo little girl.  I know that's not right or fair or whatever.  But it's disconcerting to discuss my woman parts with someone who sounds like a child.

[Guest]

Voices definitely do play a part, now that I think back to a recent phone experience.  It may not be fair, but I'll put myself out there and admit I was NOT comfortable discussing my upcoming gyno appointment with a receptionist that sounded like a 5yo little girl.  I know that's not right or fair or whatever.  But it's disconcerting to discuss my woman parts with someone who sounds like a child.

 

eez what kind of insanely personal info did the RECEPTIONIST want to know???

[Guest]

My husband said last night he's going to start talking like Noam Chomsky, just to give the impression that every single word uttered carries a tonne of weight lol.

 

"Well. We need to. Choose. ......Something. For. dinner........tonight."

[FO4UR]

A related story...

 

One move, our household goods were held hostage by a moving company.  Dh called and said his wife needed her household goods.  No, we cannot manage that...blah, blah, blah...

 

I called.  Forcefully, I demanded that I must have my home office TOMORROW.  I work from home, and everyday you hold my belongings hostage is a day of work LOST. (I didn't explain that I am a homeschool mom and my important office consisted of math books and science kits. :lol: ) Shall I call corporate, or can you get my stuff to my doorstep tomorrow?  Tomorrow it was.

 

 

When the complaint was on behalf of a housewife, it was no with excuses.  When the complaint was on behalf of (what was percieved as) a career-related need, it was moved upon asap and with apologies.

 

Sexism.  Yes.  But more than that, when I portrayed myself as a career woman, I was given a higher status.  And, when I chuckled about the story later I got some comments about being so "bossy" for such a small woman.  sigh...

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

A related story...

 

One move, our household goods were held hostage by a moving company.  Dh called and said his wife needed her household goods.  No, we cannot manage that...blah, blah, blah...

 

I called.  Forcefully, I demanded that I must have my home office TOMORROW.  I work from home, and everyday you hold my belongings hostage is a day of work LOST. (I didn't explain that I am a homeschool mom and my important office consisted of math books and science kits. :lol: ) Shall I call corporate, or can you get my stuff to my doorstep tomorrow?  Tomorrow it was.

 

 

When the complaint was on behalf of a housewife, it was no with excuses.  When the complaint was on behalf of (what was percieved as) a career-related need, it was moved upon asap and with apologies.

 

Sexism.  Yes.  But more than that, when I portrayed myself as a career woman, I was given a higher status.  And, when I chuckled about the story later I got some comments about being so "bossy" for such a small woman.  sigh...

 

Phhh you'd think they'd know we all know the handbook front to back and servive members have no clue.

[Carrie12345]

eez what kind of insanely personal info did the RECEPTIONIST want to know???

 

Well, more than I would be willing to share with a public message board than even a child-like receptionist, lol!

[Bluegoat]

I don't aologize ever (in complaints/critisisms/suggestions/strangers I have not injured) and DH definitely gets way more credit for talky facing ppl than I do.

 

And holy geezy Peet if he doesn't get immediate results, you'd think it's the end of the world.

 

BALLS to the idea that "well if women would talk like men they'd be better respected."

 

How about if an appreciable number of half of the English-speaking population speaks a certain way EVERYONE JUST DEAL WITH IT and don't be jerks? Use tone of voice to choose your mate all you want, but for the love of everything holy, a higher-pitched voice doesn't mean I didn't order this fracking burrito and also don't know how yelp works. snap snap bring me my enchilada, mysogynist waiter! If it's agression you respomd to, let's *do* thisssss.

 

People aren't pure frontal cortexes or Vulcans though.  We're animals, and all that equipment is still in there functioning away.  A lot of the time people probably don't even know they are reacting to something or that they are giving certain signals.  So - if we try and be more aware, it's a way of adding more options to deal with the situation.

 

 

[FO4UR]

However, with all that said about how women often communicate with lots of words and appologies, I think that people respond faster to men, no matter what.

 

I was at a conference with a lot of speakers.  The first few speakers were women.  When they took the mic, they had to work hard to get everyone's attention, and even after they had almost everyone's attention, there were still a few people in the back carrying on conversations for a minute or two.

 

Then a man took the mic.  He said, "Hello," into the mic and the room went dead silent. 

 

Soooo irritating.

 

 

Girls are praised for being coy and soft.  Boys are encouraged to project their voice and enunciate.

 

Years of voice lessons...I can call the attention of a room when needed.  I am often in a position where I see the above happening with someone else and wonder if it would help matters if I got the attention and then handed it over to the person who needs it...or would that step on toes???  And, I recognize that most men probably don't even question if it would step on toes.  

[Pam in CT]

I don't aologize ever (in complaints/critisisms/suggestions/strangers I have not injured) and DH definitely gets way more credit for talky facing ppl than I do.

 

And holy geezy Peet if he doesn't get immediate results, you'd think it's the end of the world.

 

BALLS to the idea that "well if women would talk like men they'd be better respected."

 

How about if an appreciable number of half of the English-speaking population speaks a certain way EVERYONE JUST DEAL WITH IT and don't be jerks? Use tone of voice to choose your mate all you want, but for the love of everything holy, a higher-pitched voice doesn't mean I didn't order this fracking burrito and also don't know how yelp works. snap snap bring me my enchilada, mysogynist waiter! If it's agression you respomd to, let's *do* thisssss.

:lol:

 

I feel your pain.  I see your point.  I'm not sure the whole of the world is ready, though.  

 

 

The gist of Sheryl Sandberg's Lean In: Women, Work and the Will to Lead was this very business of how women do the back-pedaling, equivocating, finishing their points with a question mark? thing we've been talking about in this thread; and how they hold back from advocating to get put on the plum projects, from asking for a raise / better bonus, etc.  For not going for it the way men are expected to do.

 

Feedback like Nadella's, though, is evidence that people (OK, mostly men) are a little... surprised?  nonplussed? in some cases, irritated / defensive / quick to leap on the b!tchy label... when women actually do Lean In.  

 

(Not because they intend to manifest a double standard... it's just not something people are quite aware of doing.  A blind spot.)

 

So a part of it is on the women's side -- speak up!  speak clearly!  say what you mean! -- but a part is also on the recipient side.

 

 

To his credit, Nadella cottoned on quickly, and that perhaps is where the hope in all this nonsense is.

[Guest]

:lol:

 

 

Feedback like Nadella's, though, is evidence that people (OK, mostly men) are a little... surprised?  nonplussed? in some cases, irritated / defensive / quick to leap on the b!tchy label... when women actually do Lean In.  

 

 

Totally. And he was called out on it, as all rightly should be. Because it's ridiculous.

 

Google 'move over shakespeare and language innovation' or something like that.

 

ETA--here it is. Women move language trends foward.

[Tsuga]

I only have experience as myself (I get good results) and my mom (passive-aggressive gets wildly unpredictable results).

 

Once my mother said of a contractor, "He did it wrong, but I'm going to ask him if he's happy with it and to take a look and if he sees what is wrong, I'll pay him to fix it but if not I'll leave him a bad review on Yelp." ?!?!?

 

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry, but I took it on myself and told him exactly what was wrong, gave him a deadline, and he did the work at no additional charge within the deadline. It was a friendly relationship. He wanted to do a good job but hadn't seen the issue.

 

In all fairness, my mom has gotten WAY better over her lifetime and is much better than her own mom. At least my mom does something. Her mom basically has men do stuff for her (she's 85 or something, married at 16).

 

My sister and I were raised as feminists and neither of us seem to have the same issues. We do not talk with question marks. We do not take excuses. My cousins are similar.

 

That said, we also do  not play the victim or cry when pulled over or anything.

 

 

When the complaint was on behalf of a housewife, it was no with excuses.  When the complaint was on behalf of (what was percieved as) a career-related need, it was moved upon asap and with apologies.

 

Sexism.  Yes.  But more than that, when I portrayed myself as a career woman, I was given a higher status.  And, when I chuckled about the story later I got some comments about being so "bossy" for such a small woman.  sigh...

 

That's my experience. Particularly when dealing with service representatives who are generally the same or lower socio-economic status as those purchasing the services, I don't find my sex is a hinderance.