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Duggars: Not just TLC, Law and Order SVU cannot stay away from them


mathnerd
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This came across my news feed this morning - apparently, Olivia Benson and Co. go into Duggarland when they investigate the sexual assault of a 13 year old. I don't watch TV anymore and I missed this episode. But, I used to watch SVU a lot in my younger years - I will try to catch up on the online streaming version of this episode later on.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/11/05/josh-duggar-gets-the-law-order-svu-treatment-and-it-is-glorious.html?

 

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Law and Order has always done this. The writers aren't creative enough to come up with original ideas.

As a former fan of Law and Order, I have to mention that this show was created to mimic headline news. The writers are hired to write episodes based on reality and everyday news that grips people's attention.

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I guess I'm just not a fan. Real life is crappy enough, why make "entertainment" out of the crappy parts?

 

The show picks up hard issues and forces the viewers to have a look at those issues. It is not simply "entertainment". They often portray the difficulties in prosecution, the choices that have to be made, the inadequacies of the judicial system, and discuss multifaceted societal problems that have no easy answers - and all on cases that are everyday news.

 

I do not find SVU "entertaining". But it is a well done show that is thought provoking and can get a message to people who may never have thought about an issue. Just recently, they had a case about an attack on a  transgendered teen - for some viewers possibly the first time they were confronted with the topic.

 

Every time a show starts with the disclaimer "this story is fictional", you can bet it addresses a real case that was in the news in the preceding weeks.

 

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I agree. It's not entertainment in the sense that it's fun and happy. It makes you pause and think. Besides, if books, art, movies, TV etc. didn't deal with real life even in its ugly moments, we'd lose a great deal of valuable work. Should writers not deal with terrible events in the lives of individuals or groups? Should artists and photographers only ever record happy things? Of course not. (And I don't think for a second that anyone here believes that.) Now the way serious issues are treated on TV may often be questionable. That's a different issue, I think.

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The show picks up hard issues and forces the viewers to have a look at those issues. It is not simply "entertainment". They often portray the difficulties in prosecution, the choices that have to be made, the inadequacies of the judicial system, and discuss multifaceted societal problems that have no easy answers - and all on cases that are everyday news.

 

I do not find SVU "entertaining". But it is a well done show that is thought provoking and can get a message to people who may never have thought about an issue. Just recently, they had a case about an attack on a  transgendered teen - for some viewers possibly the first time they were confronted with the topic.

 

Every time a show starts with the disclaimer "this story is fictional", you can bet it addresses a real case that was in the news in the preceding weeks.

 

+1

 

I have never gotten into SVU as much as I did the original L&O, but both shows would often get the idea from a news story and then throw in an extra twist somewhere along the way.

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the difficulties in prosecution, the choices that have to be made, the inadequacies of the judicial system

 

:iagree:  I agree 100% to the above. Until I watched L & O, I was a black and white thinker when it came to crimes and criminals. To me, the bad guys deserved to go to prison. It was eye opening to me that DA's have to make many difficult choices and sometimes agree to plea bargains that go against their personal beliefs and the law because of inadequacies of the judicial system or compromise for the "greater good" etc. When I was younger, I learned a lot about how the criminal justice system works from this show and topics ripped off headlines made it easy for me to understand the issues they were portraying.

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I'm seriously out of the loop so I only recently realized that there was a whole show devoted to rape and sexual assault cases. Every week. For like nine seasons or something like that. That's a LOT of rape. I mean, who watches that??? Does anyone else think that having a show focus on a crime like this might eventually dull people to shock and tragedy of sexual crime? Perhaps normalize it in their minds? I can't help feeling like no matter how sensitively the subject is treated, eventually, you're just like, "Yeah yeah, we get it, she's upset." Someone I know says they are interested in the show for the plot lines involving the main characters and the crimes being committed are kind of beside the point. Which didn't really make me feel any better.

 

I'm rather sensitive to this topic, and I hate rape scenes and I've refused to watch movies or read books that I know had graphic assault scenes, so I can't imagine wanting to watch a show like this week after week, year after year, on this topic, even if the act was never shown or described in detail (I assume some detail is given since they're investigating it). I would be very depressed. So I haven't seen any of it.

 

ETA: SVU is actually in it's 17th season according to imdb. 375 episodes so far. :ohmy:

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I admit I am a crime show junkie and it is my favorite genre.  I watch things like Cold Case Files and 48 Hours where real life cases are being solved.  I also like shows like Law and Order (all of them), CSI (all of them but NY was my favorite), NCIS, etc.....

 

They often take real cases and I am fine with that......some of them are so crazy I would think writers making it up were mentally ill!  So it makes sense to use real life situations as a starting point.

 

Looking forward to seeing this one.

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I'm seriously out of the loop so I only recently realized that there was a whole show devoted to rape and sexual assault cases. Every week. For like nine seasons or something like that. That's a LOT of rape. I mean, who watches that??? Does anyone else think that having a show focus on a crime like this might eventually dull people to shock and tragedy of sexual crime? Perhaps normalize it in their minds? I can't help feeling like no matter how sensitively the subject is treated, eventually, you're just like, "Yeah yeah, we get it, she's upset." Someone I know says they are interested in the show for the plot lines involving the main characters and the crimes being committed are kind of beside the point. Which didn't really make me feel any better.

 

I'm rather sensitive to this topic, and I hate rape scenes and I've refused to watch movies or read books that I know had graphic assault scenes, so I can't imagine wanting to watch a show like this week after week, year after year, on this topic, even if the act was never shown or described in detail (I assume some detail is given since they're investigating it). I would be very depressed. So I haven't seen any of it.

 

ETA: SVU is actually in it's 17th season according to imdb. 375 episodes so far. :ohmy:

 

Earlier this week I read about research comparing attitudes of those who watched SVU to those who watch CSI and NCIS (since they're all crime procedural dramas). They found that people who watched SVU were more likely to sympathize with victims and recognize a victim's right to refuse s*xual contact, people who watched CSI were more likely to think the victim deserved it, and people who watched NCIS did not have a change in their views.

 

They theorized that SVU encouraged a more positive view of victims, because it portrays complex situations sympathetically. The article also pointed out that SVU typically shows victims interacting with sympathetic police officers and getting justice through the legal system.

 

They theorized that the reason CSI watchers were more likely to think the victim deserved it was because CSI tends to show stereotypical assault situations where the victim's poor choices lead to the assault: walking down a dark alley alone or leaving a window open at night.

 

They theorized that NCIS didn't affect views about s*xual assault, because they rarely depict it on the show.

 

It was an interesting read. The article about the research was reprinted in my local paper, but I'll try to find a link.

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Earlier this week I read about research comparing attitudes of those who watched SVU to those who watch CSI and NCIS (since they're all crime procedural dramas). They found that people who watched SVU were more likely to sympathize with victims and recognize a victim's right to refuse s*xual contact, people who watched CSI were more likely to think the victim deserved it, and people who watched NCIS did not have a change in their views.

 

They theorized that SVU encouraged a more positive view of victims, because it portrays complex situations sympathetically. The article also pointed out that SVU typically shows victims interacting with sympathetic police officers and getting justice through the legal system.

 

They theorized that the reason CSI watchers were more likely to think the victim deserved it was because CSI tends to show stereotypical assault situations where the victim's poor choices lead to the assault: walking down a dark alley alone or leaving a window open at night.

 

They theorized that NCIS didn't affect views about s*xual assault, because they rarely depict it on the show.

 

It was an interesting read. The article about the research was reprinted in my local paper, but I'll try to find a link.

 

Very interesting.

I watch SVU, Criminal Minds, and used to watch CSI.

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Earlier this week I read about research comparing attitudes of those who watched SVU to those who watch CSI and NCIS (since they're all crime procedural dramas). They found that people who watched SVU were more likely to sympathize with victims and recognize a victim's right to refuse s*xual contact, people who watched CSI were more likely to think the victim deserved it, and people who watched NCIS did not have a change in their views.

 

They theorized that SVU encouraged a more positive view of victims, because it portrays complex situations sympathetically. The article also pointed out that SVU typically shows victims interacting with sympathetic police officers and getting justice through the legal system.

 

They theorized that the reason CSI watchers were more likely to think the victim deserved it was because CSI tends to show stereotypical assault situations where the victim's poor choices lead to the assault: walking down a dark alley alone or leaving a window open at night.

 

They theorized that NCIS didn't affect views about s*xual assault, because they rarely depict it on the show.

 

It was an interesting read. The article about the research was reprinted in my local paper, but I'll try to find a link.

It's definitely not a show that glorifies or glamorizes the criminals. The lead actor, Mariska Hartigay, has been so affected by the story lines that she created a foundation to support rape and sexual assault victims. It's called Joyful Heart.

 

I haven't watched this episode, but hopefully it exposes the destructive nature of the cult unlike the BS fluff pieces put out by TLC and People that totally ignore the messed up culture behind the crimes.

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I'm seriously out of the loop so I only recently realized that there was a whole show devoted to rape and sexual assault cases. Every week. For like nine seasons or something like that. That's a LOT of rape. I mean, who watches that??? Does anyone else think that having a show focus on a crime like this might eventually dull people to shock and tragedy of sexual crime? Perhaps normalize it in their minds? I can't help feeling like no matter how sensitively the subject is treated, eventually, you're just like, "Yeah yeah, we get it, she's upset." Someone I know says they are interested in the show for the plot lines involving the main characters and the crimes being committed are kind of beside the point. Which didn't really make me feel any better.

 

I'm rather sensitive to this topic, and I hate rape scenes and I've refused to watch movies or read books that I know had graphic assault scenes, so I can't imagine wanting to watch a show like this week after week, year after year, on this topic, even if the act was never shown or described in detail (I assume some detail is given since they're investigating it). I would be very depressed. So I haven't seen any of it.

 

ETA: SVU is actually in it's 17th season according to imdb. 375 episodes so far. :ohmy:

 

It isn't all rape or sexual assault cases.  It tends to cover any kind of crime where vulnerable people are the victims. So a lot of them are crimes against children, for example, or I think they have even done episodes where victims were illegal immigrants.

 

I can see that it wouldn't be to everyone's taste.  I watch it occasionally and that sort of thing doesn't really bother me, but I do like a little more variety which is why it is a now and again thing.

 

 

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Earlier this week I read about research comparing attitudes of those who watched SVU to those who watch CSI and NCIS (since they're all crime procedural dramas). They found that people who watched SVU were more likely to sympathize with victims and recognize a victim's right to refuse s*xual contact, people who watched CSI were more likely to think the victim deserved it, and people who watched NCIS did not have a change in their views.

 

They theorized that SVU encouraged a more positive view of victims, because it portrays complex situations sympathetically. The article also pointed out that SVU typically shows victims interacting with sympathetic police officers and getting justice through the legal system.

 

They theorized that the reason CSI watchers were more likely to think the victim deserved it was because CSI tends to show stereotypical assault situations where the victim's poor choices lead to the assault: walking down a dark alley alone or leaving a window open at night.

 

They theorized that NCIS didn't affect views about s*xual assault, because they rarely depict it on the show.

 

It was an interesting read. The article about the research was reprinted in my local paper, but I'll try to find a link.

 

Thank you, that's very interesting and I'm glad to hear it. I was honestly disturbed by the success of the show but if it's having a positive affect on people's ideas, then that's good. Funny that someone chose to research a question I only recently wondered about. I would be interested in that link if you happen to find it. :)

 

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Ripped from the headlines and all that.

 

It usually took about 6-12 months for a major news story with a topic connection to become a Law and Order episode. I used to watch a lot of L&O and some SVU. It's not something I often make time for now but I have caught a few episodes in the last year or so on Hulu. I really liked their treatment of the trans youth harassment episode. I thought they did a good job portraying the kid who did the harassment too.

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Earlier this week I read about research comparing attitudes of those who watched SVU to those who watch CSI and NCIS (since they're all crime procedural dramas). They found that people who watched SVU were more likely to sympathize with victims and recognize a victim's right to refuse s*xual contact, people who watched CSI were more likely to think the victim deserved it, and people who watched NCIS did not have a change in their views.

 

They theorized that SVU encouraged a more positive view of victims, because it portrays complex situations sympathetically. The article also pointed out that SVU typically shows victims interacting with sympathetic police officers and getting justice through the legal system.

 

They theorized that the reason CSI watchers were more likely to think the victim deserved it was because CSI tends to show stereotypical assault situations where the victim's poor choices lead to the assault: walking down a dark alley alone or leaving a window open at night.

 

They theorized that NCIS didn't affect views about s*xual assault, because they rarely depict it on the show.

 

It was an interesting read. The article about the research was reprinted in my local paper, but I'll try to find a link.

I wonder if they controlled the results for gender in these perceptions. While CSI and SVU (like most prime time network TV shows) had/have a larger female than male audience, I believe the SVU audience slants much more towards women.

 

I would be interested in the link.

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I would be interested in the link.

 

Google is your friend. I'm pretty sure this one is what the poster was referring to: Here is the actual study

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10810730.2015.1018615?journalCode=uhcm20

 

and here is a popular media summary

http://www.techinsider.io/law-and-order-promotes-positive-attitudes-about-sex-2015-10

 

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Who didn't want the Duggar story to end differently? Who didn't want to hear Michelle and Jim-Bob come forward and say, "Hey, we messed up. We didn't protect our daughters, and we were wrong." Who didn't want to cry for the girls when they smiled so sweetly and defended their brother? Who didn't want a different ending to the story?

 

I haven't watched the Duggar episode of SVU yet, but from the summary it sounds like the typical-SVU treatment. They take a story from the headlines, add in trained cops who are sympathetic and supportive, and *usually* give you a little more justice at the end. I know it's not everyone's cup-of-tea, but the show definitely sends a strong message to victims of s*xual assault that the system is there to protect them and fight for justice on their behalf. Every week they show sympathetic, supportive cops listening to victims, and prosecutors fighting to bring their assailants to justice. In a world where very few r*pe cases are even brought to trial, I think it's a pretty powerful and positive message.

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Currently watching it now on Hulu. The whole first scene with the purity wedding/ball/whatever skeeves me out. 

I grew up in a purity ring culture, and I thought we were crazy strict.  :huh: This makes me thankful my dad was independent and confident enough to not rely on the teachings of cult leaders. The Gothard stuff was prevalent in our church, but dad refused. So thankful!

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Currently watching it now on Hulu. The whole first scene with the purity wedding/ball/whatever skeeves me out. 

 

I grew up in a purity ring culture, and I thought we were crazy strict.  :huh: This makes me thankful my dad was independent and confident enough to not rely on the teachings of cult leaders. The Gothard stuff was prevalent in our church, but dad refused. So thankful!

 

I am watching it right now too.  It starts with a dance!!!!   Whoever wrote the script didn't quite understand the culture!  

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I am watching it right now too.  It starts with a dance!!!!   Whoever wrote the script didn't quite understand the culture!  

Actually, purity balls and purity dances are (or were) all the rage in those communities for a time. I knew some girls who went to an equivalent and even recently I saw a past student post pictures of what appeared to be a full-on engagement (ie: purity ring gifting) to her dad. It's quite bizarre and extremely creepy. 

 

 

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I haven't watched SVU regularly, but I've watched a few episodes here and there. Because of this thread, I watched the episode. The purity ball and ceremony creeped me out for multiple reasons, even though I get the sentiment and approve of abstinence until marriage (although I'm not sure a 13yo fully understands what she's pledging). But I thought Olivia and her crew did a very good job of being gentle and sympathetic to the girls (and the girl who portrayed Lane did an excellent job, IMO). Olivia's always been good with the kids when I've watched. If anything, I think they might give an overly positive view of the system, portraying it as more sympathetic and helpful than a lot of people might encounter, but I can definitely see how they could influence people to be sympathetic toward the victims.

 

I thought it was very strange that the parents were willing to let their 13yo get married, but a lot of what they said was a little strange and "off," like they were a little out of touch with the real world. (I've never seen the Duggar show, so I don't know if they come across the same way,). But then I felt that the mother, especially, was really great at ignoring all the rest and sticking up for her girls at the end. Everything else was superficial, but she got all mama bear.

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Actually, purity balls and purity dances are (or were) all the rage in those communities for a time. I knew some girls who went to an equivalent and even recently I saw a past student post pictures of what appeared to be a full-on engagement (ie: purity ring gifting) to her dad. It's quite bizarre and extremely creepy. 

 

 

 

 

Pretty sure the Duggars are not for dancing of any kind and neither is Gothard.

 

I didn't grow up Gothard, but grew up uber conservative.  No dancing, no PG-13 movies (although they didn't have that rating when I was a kid), no face cards, no secular music, and on and on the legalism would go.

 

Circles now do seem to have social dancing (not the circles I grew up in, they are still very anti-dancing), but the purity ball is indeed creepy.

 

One question, the new you posted says 95% of all Americans will have sex before marriage?  Do you think that is accurate?

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Southern Ivy, that is the creepiest video ever! Your dad is your boyfriend! Daddy dates!! Come sit on my lap and snuggle, ewww!!! I can't imagine Trinqueta sitting on dh's lap now, she's 5'9" tall, it would be ridiculous.

 

And, I'd also like to add, why are these girls wearing makeup? If you're so concerned about purity, chuck your 12 yo's mascara!!!!!

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Southern Ivy, that is the creepiest video ever! Your dad is your boyfriend! Daddy dates!! Come sit on my lap and snuggle, ewww!!! I can't imagine Trinqueta sitting on dh's lap now, she's 5'9" tall, it would be ridiculous.

 

And, I'd also like to add, why are these girls wearing makeup? If you're so concerned about purity, chuck your 12 yo's mascara!!!!!

 

Are you really suggesting mascara makes a girl less "pure" or will lead her to have sex outside of marriage? This discussion always brings out the weirdest comments.

 

 

The video is creepy and it's emotional incest and it's unhealthy. Daddy is NOT your "boyfriend". Yikes.

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Are you really suggesting mascara makes a girl less "pure" or will lead her to have sex outside of marriage? This discussion always brings out the weirdest comments.

 

IMHO, if you're wearing makeup you are signaling that you are part of the 95%. If you're really not interested in dating, why are you bothering with mascara in middle school? If you want to be separate and different, you should start with your appearance.

 

If you're rejecting the world, do it. It seems to me that this subculture is trying to have its cake and eat it too. We want to look like everyone else. We want to have dates, just with Daddy. I personally feel that if you're going to be different, own it. Don't try to skate by fitting in visually, let your freak flag fly.

 

I say this as the mom of a 12yo who does not wear makeup. I discourage it as well as form fitting jeans because she doesn't need to look older than she is. She really isn't ready to handle attention from boys which would surely come if she dressed like the girls in that video and wore makeup.

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IMHO, if you're wearing makeup you are signaling that you are part of the 95%. If you're really not interested in dating, why are you bothering with mascara in middle school? If you want to be separate and different, you should start with your appearance.

 

If you're rejecting the world, do it. It seems to me that this subculture is trying to have its cake and eat it too. We want to look like everyone else. We want to have dates, just with Daddy. I personally feel that if you're going to be different, own it. Don't try to skate by fitting in visually, let your freak flag fly.

 

I say this as the mom of a 12yo who does not wear makeup. I discourage it as well as form fitting jeans because she doesn't need to look older than she is. She really isn't ready to handle attention from boys which would surely come if she dressed like the girls in that video and wore makeup.

:svengo:

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Thank you, that's very interesting and I'm glad to hear it. I was honestly disturbed by the success of the show but if it's having a positive affect on people's ideas, then that's good. Funny that someone chose to research a question I only recently wondered about. I would be interested in that link if you happen to find it. :)

 

 

My daughter may or may not be named after the lead character in SVU.

 

Truthfully I love the show. I deal with those topics every day professionally(I work in an area with a large amount of assaults, especially against children) and in my extended family. In the real world justice is rarely served.

 

I like watching something where the perpetrator is (almost always) brought to justice.

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Law and Order has always done this. The writers aren't creative enough to come up with original ideas.

 

To be fair, given the subject matter of the show, you'd have to be pretty twisted to be able to come up with that many original plots.

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The whole Daddy date reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend. We have a mutual acquaintances who just married. 23 man, 48 year old woman. Mind blowing. Friend and I were discussing it and I said that I am concerned this man/ boy has mommy issues and although this marriage isn't 'wrong' it has potential to be very troublesome.

 

Friend says she understands marrying a parent replacement. And that she did not have a good father and she looks to her husband for that. I said, um the difference is you and your husband are the same age and hello he is your HUSBAND not your father. She said, but when I am upset and crying he comforts me.

 

Smh. I told her that is what husbands do.

 

People have weird ideas. I never had a proper father figure until I was about 37 but I never looked to my husband to fill that role.

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Pretty sure the Duggars are not for dancing of any kind and neither is Gothard.

 

I didn't grow up Gothard, but grew up uber conservative.  No dancing, no PG-13 movies (although they didn't have that rating when I was a kid), no face cards, no secular music, and on and on the legalism would go.

 

Circles now do seem to have social dancing (not the circles I grew up in, they are still very anti-dancing), but the purity ball is indeed creepy.

 

One question, the new you posted says 95% of all Americans will have sex before marriage?  Do you think that is accurate?

 

I'd be willing to bet the writers came across it while researching the conservative Christian variants, and also thought it was creepy, therefore good fodder for the episode, plus mixed it up so that it wasn't EXACTLY like the actual Duggar case.

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Southern Ivy, that is the creepiest video ever! Your dad is your boyfriend! Daddy dates!! Come sit on my lap and snuggle, ewww!!! I can't imagine Trinqueta sitting on dh's lap now, she's 5'9" tall, it would be ridiculous.

 

And, I'd also like to add, why are these girls wearing makeup? If you're so concerned about purity, chuck your 12 yo's mascara!!!!!

 

2 things: 1. I still liked to cuddle with my dad on occasion at 12. I think most kids, while not as cuddly as they were when younger, still need physical contact like that with their parents from time to time.

 

2. What does makeup have to do with purity, really? I was raised with similar sentiments, then I watched those My Big Fat American Gypsy Wedding and My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding shows and saw a subculture where they put just as high a value on girls staying "pure" until marriage, but do it with a "look don't touch" philosophy that lets the girls dress and wear what they want, and how.

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I do watch SVU regularly and have since it started, and I justed finished this episode on Hulu this morning.

 

I thought the episode was well done. Yes, it showed the parents sending the boy away to protect him, but it turned out that the pastor was the perp, and he and played on the mom's willingness to protect all of her children to make the son look guilty and try to divert attention from himself.

 

My "favorite" part was the last line, when Olivia was talking to the newbie who was skeptical of her methods. The gut said that he thought he would be taking rapists off the streets and not out of churches. Olivia replied something along the line of "most rapists don't humt on the streets. they hunt where they feel safe"

While there lost of victims of violent rape by strangers, I agree that more often children are raped by someone with authority over them, someone the parents trust.

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Pretty sure the Duggars are not for dancing of any kind and neither is Gothard.

 

I didn't grow up Gothard, but grew up uber conservative.  No dancing, no PG-13 movies (although they didn't have that rating when I was a kid), no face cards, no secular music, and on and on the legalism would go.

 

Circles now do seem to have social dancing (not the circles I grew up in, they are still very anti-dancing), but the purity ball is indeed creepy.

 

One question, the new you posted says 95% of all Americans will have sex before marriage?  Do you think that is accurate?

I agree - the Duggars/Gothard aren't for dancing. (We were always taught that dancing is basically what gets you pregnant. lol Dancing is evil as it leads to sex.  :lol: ) I do think there is an off-shoot of the patriarchal movement that is more "liberal" than the Duggars - not necessarily uber-conservative in dress and activities, but still creepily concerned with their daughter's chastity. 

That's what I felt the SVU episode was depicting - that happy little branch of semi-conservative, but not the Duggars. 

 

 

I don't think the 95% quote is accurate. Maybe 95% of all they polled, but that's it. However, I do think that the percentage is going up in Christian circles just based on observations of my own, but it's still no where near 95%.

Going by just my Christian high school, we certainly didn't attain the 100% virgin mark. (I'd wager over half of my class had had sex by the time they got married. Just a guess, though.) Anyway, I do think it's becoming more common place. Not necessarily a "sleep around every night" type of thing, but a sleep with them when you're engaged, dating for several years, etc. I was raised similarly to you, still dh and I were essentially living together before we got married. We had both slept with other people too. Wasn't something we advertised, but we were still sleeping together and actively involved in church. Had the leadership known, we would have been removed from our positions, undoubtedly. 

 

I know True Love Waits and purity rings were a huge thing in our church, but then, our parents had just come out of the whole free-love era and were strict because, as they said, they wanted better for us. Still, I have often wondered if the push for "True Love Waits" resulted in a bunch of kids making pledges due to "Christian peer pressure" and not at all taking those convictions on themselves. 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, regarding the mascara quote...I wore makeup when I was 12, but I was still a virgin until my mid-20s. Makeup had nothing to do with my decisions. 

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2 things: 1. I still liked to cuddle with my dad on occasion at 12. I think most kids, while not as cuddly as they were when younger, still need physical contact like that with their parents from time to time.

 

2. What does makeup have to do with purity, really? I was raised with similar sentiments, then I watched those My Big Fat American Gypsy Wedding and My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding shows and saw a subculture where they put just as high a value on girls staying "pure" until marriage, but do it with a "look don't touch" philosophy that lets the girls dress and wear what they want, and how.

And they get married at 15. Congrats on the great deal of self-restraint. :lol:

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And they get married at 15. Congrats on the great deal of self-restraint. :lol:

 

 

:hurray: 

 

There are some Christian authors who made their money by writing about their love story and talking about how beautiful it was to wait for the right one. Yeah, they met when she was like 15. Got married when she was barely out of high school. 

Their message doesn't translate to the working, single 30-year-old woman. Their "waiting" period was nothing like mine. 

Drives me nuts. 

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I agree - the Duggars/Gothard aren't for dancing. (We were always taught that dancing is basically what gets you pregnant. lol Dancing is evil as it leads to sex.  :lol: ) I do think there is an off-shoot of the patriarchal movement that is more "liberal" than the Duggars - not necessarily uber-conservative in dress and activities, but still creepily concerned with their daughter's chastity. 

That's what I felt the SVU episode was depicting - that happy little branch of semi-conservative, but not the Duggars. 

 

 

I don't think the 95% quote is accurate. Maybe 95% of all they polled, but that's it. However, I do think that the percentage is going up in Christian circles just based on observations of my own, but it's still no where near 95%.

Going by just my Christian high school, we certainly didn't attain the 100% virgin mark. (I'd wager over half of my class had had sex by the time they got married. Just a guess, though.) Anyway, I do think it's becoming more common place. Not necessarily a "sleep around every night" type of thing, but a sleep with them when you're engaged, dating for several years, etc. I was raised similarly to you, still dh and I were essentially living together before we got married. We had both slept with other people too. Wasn't something we advertised, but we were still sleeping together and actively involved in church. Had the leadership known, we would have been removed from our positions, undoubtedly. 

 

I know True Love Waits and purity rings were a huge thing in our church, but then, our parents had just come out of the whole free-love era and were strict because, as they said, they wanted better for us. Still, I have often wondered if the push for "True Love Waits" resulted in a bunch of kids making pledges due to "Christian peer pressure" and not at all taking those convictions on themselves. 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, regarding the mascara quote...I wore makeup when I was 12, but I was still a virgin until my mid-20s. Makeup had nothing to do with my decisions. 

 

 

I don't like the purity movement because it pressures girls to commit to it since their parents and all their friends are doing it.  It ultimately means nothing if the girl hasn't bought into it.

 

I don't think 50% of my class had sex before marriage (very conservative MK boarding school) but I would say maybe 25%.  Maybe I am just naive though?  Maybe it was more?  

 

It is funny what different groups get legalistic about.

 

I feel I grew up very legalistic, but compared to the Indep. Fund. Baptist, we were downright liberals!  HAHAHA!

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Sigh.  Lots of women and girls dress and wear make-up to look good - for themselves - and not to attract boys.  This is the start of the "they deserved ________" train of thought because of what women wear.  

:iagree: 

 

This goes times infinity for twelve year olds. Nothing kids that age do should ever be considered that they are signaling they want sex or want sex before marriage - that's downright gross and creepy. Makeup doesn't sexualize them, people looking and thinking of them like that does. 

 

At that age and throughout my teens until I left home - even when raised in a very right wing cultish Christian household - pretty much all beautifying things were done mainly at the recommendation of the other women in my life. My mother thought I would better with blonde hair so it was (naturally, I have very dark charcoal brown-black hair which is how it has been since I left home), it's a special occasion so you should wear x and y, you need to shave so you don't look like a cactus and so on. Many will wear and do these enjoy doing so and those that do so for others are more likely to do so to meet women's expectations rather than anything to do with wanting that kind of attention or sex. 

 

I say this as someone who only wears loose long skirts (I find them more comfortable and easier to use and move in with my disabilities), covers my hair when I go out or when anyone who doesn't live here comes over (I love my hats and gain a lot of freedom not worrying about hair frizz), whose entire makeup collection in this house is medicated chapsticks to treat my 6 year old's eczema around her mouth and nail polish my kids have bought with their pocket money, who stopped shaving or even wearing bras over a decade ago (bras and shoulder joint pain/stiffness do not go together). I am the queen of flying my freak flag. And if anyone told any of kids that wearing x or y meant they were signaling they wanted sex, I would call them many bleepable things and that they shouldn't think of kids like that. 

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The whole Daddy date reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend. We have a mutual acquaintances who just married. 23 man, 48 year old woman. Mind blowing. Friend and I were discussing it and I said that I am concerned this man/ boy has mommy issues and although this marriage isn't 'wrong' it has potential to be very troublesome.

 

Friend says she understands marrying a parent replacement. And that she did not have a good father and she looks to her husband for that. I said, um the difference is you and your husband are the same age and hello he is your HUSBAND not your father. She said, but when I am upset and crying he comforts me.

 

Smh. I told her that is what husbands do.

 

People have weird ideas. I never had a proper father figure until I was about 37 but I never looked to my husband to fill that role.

 

I really don't get this.  I don't see why an age disparity means the couple is having a sort of parent/child relationship.  I think there can potentially be certain problems with a very large age disparity - in the one you mention the husband would have to be really sure he was willing to forgo kids from the outset, for example. 

 

But I have all kinds of friends who are different ages than I am, and I think friendship is probably trickier to manage with age disparity than a married relationship is.  If you are interested and attracted to each other, you have similar values,  you want a similar way of life, and are willing to make a serious commitment, those are the kinds of things that make a marriage work. 

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The whole Daddy date reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend. We have a mutual acquaintances who just married. 23 man, 48 year old woman. Mind blowing. Friend and I were discussing it and I said that I am concerned this man/ boy has mommy issues and although this marriage isn't 'wrong' it has potential to be very troublesome.

 

Friend says she understands marrying a parent replacement. And that she did not have a good father and she looks to her husband for that. I said, um the difference is you and your husband are the same age and hello he is your HUSBAND not your father. She said, but when I am upset and crying he comforts me.

 

Smh. I told her that is what husbands do.

 

People have weird ideas. I never had a proper father figure until I was about 37 but I never looked to my husband to fill that role.

 

When they are both adults, a wide age difference in a relationship is not that big a deal. My girlfriend's mother is married to a man about the same age as my girlfriend. She does not treat him like one of her children.

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I do watch SVU regularly and have since it started, and I justed finished this episode on Hulu this morning.

 

I thought the episode was well done. Yes, it showed the parents sending the boy away to protect him, but it turned out that the pastor was the perp, and he and played on the mom's willingness to protect all of her children to make the son look guilty and try to divert attention from himself.

 

My "favorite" part was the last line, when Olivia was talking to the newbie who was skeptical of her methods. The gut said that he thought he would be taking rapists off the streets and not out of churches. Olivia replied something along the line of "most rapists don't humt on the streets. they hunt where they feel safe"

While there lost of victims of violent rape by strangers, I agree that more often children are raped by someone with authority over them, someone the parents trust.

 

Well, that's a cop-out. How convenient that the boy was really innocent. 

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As far as the make-up thing - I don't necessarily have a problem with teens wearing make-up, though often it can be in part about a desire to look and feel older, which can become a problem in some cases.  I also think it often looks a little weird.  Clothing meant for adults translated to kids can also be a little odd at times.  It can look a bit like Jodi Foster when she played that young teen prostitute.

 

But I do think that there is something a little odd that some of these groups on the one hand seem to want to infantalize their daughters but also want them all dolled up like an adult.

 

I feel like the who relationship with the father thing starts with a kernal of truth - that a good relationship with a positive male role model, and a feeling of being valued, are important for girls to learn to navigate adult relationships with boys and men.  But I am not sure why it has to become do creepy.

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