Saxon Math Tests

[Perogi]

I'm a little frustrated by the lack of guidance given for grading Saxon math tests!  Surely some questions should be worth more than others?  And sometimes there are multiple parts to a single question.  Simply assigning 5 points per question seems a little misleading.  I miss my CLE tests where each question was given an explicit value.

[LMCme]

Tell me about it.  We're doing Saxon Math K, so it's a little bit different perhaps than what you're going through, but there's no guidance for what to do if he gets something wrong (it's hard to pull meaningful review with a curriculum that is so spiral-y) or how much of a reach things should be for him, what score most kids would be expected to get, etc.  And my son hates the assessments. Since they are not particularly helpful for either of us, I just decided to give up on them, but I'd worry about doing that at higher levels.

 

LMC

[Minerva]

I just use the tests as a way to know what needs more teaching. I don't use it for a grade. There is a little number in parenthesis next to each problem letting you know what chapter covers that concept, so if the mistake was something conceptual rather than just a careless error, you can figure out how where to go.  

[EKS]

I would do it by the number of steps involved.  8+4 would be one point, 8+4 x 3 would be two points.  Or for a word problem, setting up the problem correctly might be one point, and each step required for the arithmetic would be one point each.  That sort of thing.

[Ellie]

I'm a little frustrated by the lack of guidance given for grading Saxon math tests!  Surely some questions should be worth more than others?  And sometimes there are multiple parts to a single question.  Simply assigning 5 points per question seems a little misleading.  I miss my CLE tests where each question was given an explicit value.

 

The Saxon tests are specifically written so that you can happily deduct 5 points per question because there are 20 questions. The end. I don't understand why some of y'all have a problem with this. Sorry.

[Tenaj]

In our house the question is either right or wrong on a test.  No partial credit on Saxon tests.  Yes, I'm mean.  The only exception to this is that if a questions has two parts (a and b) or more (a, b, c, or/and d) then it's possible to get me to take only a .5 off.  They do protest on the four-point questions because I don't do quarter points, it's either all right, or half right or not right - LOL.

 

This is only for the books 5/4 and up.  Prior to that, I don't really grade.  We just correct and reteach the concepts that they are having trouble with.

[mamiof5]

Agree with some of the above posters. I actually like the tests, and honestly don't find them very hard to grade.

[Peaceful Isle]

I don't use saxon math, but for my BJU math tests, I usually give half credit if they get part of the answer right on story problems. I also only deduct half off if they forget the dollar sign, or something to that nature. 

 

 

[Perogi]

I suppose I could "happily" deduct 5 points for a wrong answer, but some questions are certainly more complex than others.  And some have more than one component - they may have 11a, 11b, 11c or something such as that.

[EmseB]

I don't understand what difference a score makes if you're homeschooling?  I grade my kid's tests, but I don't care what the score is, I care which problems he got wrong and why.  I grade it to see if he needs review in a particular area, if he's making dumb mistakes, if we can move on to the next lesson, etc.

 

Or, if you need a grade for record keeping, why not just decide how much a question is worth to you, give partial or whatever credit you'd like, total up the point value and give a percentage?

[Punks in Ontario]

I give a mark for properly setting up the question, and one mark for an answer.  A simple question is worth one mark, some complex questions are worth more - up to 3 or 4.  I quite like the tests.  

[Perogi]

I don't understand what difference a score makes if you're homeschooling? I grade my kid's tests, but I don't care what the score is, I care which problems he got wrong and why. I grade it to see if he needs review in a particular area, if he's making dumb mistakes, if we can move on to the next lesson, etc.

 

Or, if you need a grade for record keeping, why not just decide how much a question is worth to you, give partial or whatever credit you'd like, total up the point value and give a percentage?

This year dd is working on Saxon 7/8 and there are guidelines about what percentage she should have in the course in order to move on to Algebra 1. So the grading is important from that perspective. If I decide how much credit to give for a question I can't be sure that my grade is equivalent to what saxon expects for her to be successful in the next course. This is our first year using Saxon.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't worry too much about this.  I use it as a guide for what my kid didn't quite get.  I have him go back and correct it.  And you can usually figure out if it is just a silly mistake or that your kid really does not get something.

 

There is nothing wrong with giving partial credit.  You could make it easy on yourself.  Give half credit if the work is shown and it is pretty much correct.  The other half is for a correct answer.  That's what my math instructor does.

 

In terms of wondering if she can move on, the thing with Saxon is that there is so much repetition it's not like once you do a topic you never see it again for months.  You see it the next day. 

 

 

[Ellie]

This year dd is working on Saxon 7/8 and there are guidelines about what percentage she should have in the course in order to move on to Algebra 1. So the grading is important from that perspective. If I decide how much credit to give for a question I can't be sure that my grade is equivalent to what saxon expects for her to be successful in the next course. This is our first year using Saxon.

 

Are you sure?

 

I thought the percentage was for deciding whether a student completing Math 76 would do either Math 87 or Alg. 1/2, after which the student go on to Alg. 1.

 

Of course, I could absolutely be wrong. ;-)

 

I totally agree with you, though, about the percentages being important and so people shouldn't make up their own grading guidelines.

[amsunshine]

I agree that it's more important to use the tests as a guide to show what your child needs to review.  However, this year, I have started "grading" the tests.  I typically give partial credit for setting up a problem correctly, and working through correctly, even if the answer is not correct.  There are also usually a couple questions that have two or three part answers and, in that case, I will give credit for any of the answers that are correct, deducting the appropriate percentage for any wrong answers.  I always have my dds review any questions marked incorrect and redo their work to re-submit to me.  

[Ellie]

I agree that it's more important to use the tests as a guide to show what your child needs to review.  However, this year, I have started "grading" the tests.  I typically give partial credit for setting up a problem correctly, and working through correctly, even if the answer is not correct.  There are also usually a couple questions that have two or three part answers and, in that case, I will give credit for any of the answers that are correct, deducting the appropriate percentage for any wrong answers.  I always have my dds review any questions marked incorrect and redo their work to re-submit to me.  

 

Unless you're doing Saxon Math 54 and above. Really.

[Reefgazer]

This. Take 100 and divide by 20. Just because a question has a brief answer doesn't mean there isn't a whole lotta thought in it. For elementary and middle grades math, it's all or nothing as far as points awarded; no partial credit. I do this mainly to train my kids to pay attention to details and use care in their work. For high school, I deduct half of the five points for a trivial mistake like a careless multiplication/addition, assuming that carelessness isn't generally a problem.

 

The Saxon tests are specifically written so that you can happily deduct 5 points per question because there are 20 questions. The end. I don't understand why some of y'all have a problem with this. Sorry.

[Vida Winter]

I would just mark the question wrong and have them re-do it for full credit.

[Junie]

I like that all of the questions are weighted evenly.

 

It makes tests easier to grade ;), but more importantly, it gives my dc a little bit of a boost (emotionally, as well as in the grade book) when they get full credit for answering the easier questions correctly.

[Perogi]

"The recommended path after finishing Math 7/6 is to take Math 8/7. If your child finishes Math 8/7 with at least 80% mastery, skip ahead to Algebra 1. In previous editions, many people skipped Math 8/7 because they found it to be a weaker text than Algebra ½. In the newer third edition, pre-algebra has been added to Math 8/7, making it a much stronger program. "

 

This is what I found the publisher recommending. Then if the test scores aren't adequate in 8/7 a year may be spent with Algebra 1/2.

 

I believe Art Reed makes the other recommendation.

[SparklyUnicorn]

"The recommended path after finishing Math 7/6 is to take Math 8/7. If your child finishes Math 8/7 with at least 80% mastery, skip ahead to Algebra 1. In previous editions, many people skipped Math 8/7 because they found it to be a weaker text than Algebra ½. In the newer third edition, pre-algebra has been added to Math 8/7, making it a much stronger program. "

 

This is what I found the publisher recommending. Then if the test scores aren't adequate in 8/7 a year may be spent with Algebra 1/2.

 

I believe Art Reed makes the other recommendation.

 

You could also at that point just make your own judgment call.  Look at the topics covered and probably you will have a sense for what topics she is good with or not.

 

I don't even give most of the tests.  I am working through those problems with my kid every day so I know what he knows or does not know. 

[Ellie]

"The recommended path after finishing Math 7/6 is to take Math 8/7. If your child finishes Math 8/7 with at least 80% mastery, skip ahead to Algebra 1. In previous editions, many people skipped Math 8/7 because they found it to be a weaker text than Algebra ½. In the newer third edition, pre-algebra has been added to Math 8/7, making it a much stronger program. "

 

This is what I found the publisher recommending. Then if the test scores aren't adequate in 8/7 a year may be spent with Algebra 1/2.

 

I believe Art Reed makes the other recommendation.

 

I don't know what Art Reed recommends. :-) And I believe the publisher's recommendation to do Alg. 1/2 in addition to Math 87 is new.

 

Twenty years or so ago, the recommendation was Math 76, Alg. 1/2, Alg. 1....unless the student had less than an 80% average in 76, in which case it was Math 76, Math 87, Alg. 1. Then Math 87 was tweaked, so the recommendation became Math 76, Math 87, Alg. 1...unless the student had less than an 80% average in 76, in which case it was Math 76, Alg. 1/2, Alg. 1. There was no recommendation to do both 87 and 1/2.

 

Things change over the years, though, and the publisher, for some reason, doesn't feel the need to let me know when things change. What's up with that?? :D

 

OTOH, if one of my dc were very mathy and very young doing Saxon, I might have her do both, because I wouldn't want algebra before she was 14yo.

[SparklyUnicorn]

 

OTOH, if one of my dc were very mathy and very young doing Saxon, I might have her do both, because I wouldn't want algebra before she was 14yo.

 

Why not?  My kid will finish Algebra 2 before he is 14.  Every kid is different.  I don't see how the age matters in this case.

[EKS]

I don't use Saxon (though I have used 2-8/7).  But in general I like for my students' math grades to reflect their understanding of the material as indicated by their performance on tests.

 

Say my student takes a test with 10 questions each worth 10 points.  Say he produces wrong answers for three of the problems.  The reason he has gotten the problems wrong is because he doesn't understand the concept and is really just guessing about how to do things.  This performance would result in my taking all the points off for these problems and he would get 70% on the test.  

 

But say that instead he makes an error copying a sign on one of the problems, but then carries the error through properly, thus demonstrating that he has full knowledge of what he is doing.  The next error is a multiplication error (he multiplies 3 x 2 and gets 5) but the work before and after the mistake is correct.  And the next error is something equally trivial.  For errors such as these I would take off 1 or maybe 2 points per problem, resulting in a score of 94-97%, which I think represents his performance on the test accurately.  Giving him a 70% for this work would be misrepresenting his performance.

 

Frankly, I'm guessing that people who don't give partial credit (particularly in algebra and up) really just don't want to be bothered with the work of grading exams this way.

[Ellie]

Why not?  My kid will finish Algebra 2 before he is 14.  Every kid is different.  I don't see how the age matters in this case.

 

::shrugs:: We are not a math-y family. I don't see the point of completing algebra that young, especially not if the child isn't going to be graduated early and he'll be taking SATs/ACTs a couple of years after he has completed algebra. Others have said that it was problematic for their children, because it had been so long since they had studied algebra. IDK. My dc did c.c. instead of high school, so there you go. :-)

[Reefgazer]

The bolded is the path we followed.  DD has been working on Algebra I for several months now and finds it so very much easier than 8/7.  But my standard for 8/7 was 90% or we re-teach the lesson involved; don't know if that made the difference or not.  I can't imagine DD doing both 8/7 and Algebra 1/2; she would have lost her mind with boredom.

"The recommended path after finishing Math 7/6 is to take Math 8/7. If your child finishes Math 8/7 with at least 80% mastery, skip ahead to Algebra 1. In previous editions, many people skipped Math 8/7 because they found it to be a weaker text than Algebra ½. In the newer third edition, pre-algebra has been added to Math 8/7, making it a much stronger program. "

This is what I found the publisher recommending. Then if the test scores aren't adequate in 8/7 a year may be spent with Algebra 1/2.

I believe Art Reed makes the other recommendation.

 

[Serenade]

 

 

There is nothing wrong with giving partial credit.  You could make it easy on yourself.  Give half credit if the work is shown and it is pretty much correct.  The other half is for a correct answer.  That's what my math instructor does.

 

 

 

This is pretty much how I grade Saxon. 

 

I have one kid who doesn't show work, so he didn't get much partial credit.  I have another who shows his work, and it's very easy to see where he went wrong.  If he had the set-up correct, and multiple steps correct and just goofed on the last step, for instance, I'm not going to negate all he did right by marking the problem totally wrong.  My DH, an engineer, said this is pretty much how they grade problems in engineering school,  so I figure if partial credit worked at a top-tier engineering school, it can also work in my homeschool.

[Serenade]

 

 

Frankly, I'm guessing that people who don't give partial credit (particularly in algebra and up) really just don't want to be bothered with the work of grading exams this way.

 

 

You're right, it is a lot of work to grade exams like that, and sometimes it's really frustrating to figure out what is fair.  If I'm having a hard time, I will usually ask my husband, or another friend who is quite mathy.   

[SparklyUnicorn]

This is pretty much how I grade Saxon. 

 

I have one kid who doesn't show work, so he didn't get much partial credit.  I have another who shows his work, and it's very easy to see where he went wrong.  If he had the set-up correct, and multiple steps correct and just goofed on the last step, for instance, I'm not going to negate all he did right by marking the problem totally wrong.  My DH, an engineer, said this is pretty much how they grade problems in engineering school,  so I figure if partial credit worked at a top-tier engineering school, it can also work in my homeschool.

 

I constantly tell my kid that showing work can save his @$$ on a test.  LOL 

 

Many instructors will give partial credit for showing work despite an incorrect answer. 

 

In a homeschooling situation though, I don't get too worked up about any of this.  Ultimately I want to know if my kid understands the concepts or not.

[Ellie]

I'm a little frustrated by the lack of guidance given for grading Saxon math tests!  Surely some questions should be worth more than others?  And sometimes there are multiple parts to a single question.  Simply assigning 5 points per question seems a little misleading.  I miss my CLE tests where each question was given an explicit value.

 

Oh, and FTR, I don't know why you would think it's "misleading" to assign 5 points to each question. It's basic arithmetic: number of answers (20) divided into 100 = # of points deducted for each wrong answer (5). I've never figured out how people came up with different points for stuff on the same test, lol. Anyway, Saxon tests are diagnostic, not just, well, tests. It is how you know which things your dc is struggling with, and whether he's reading to do Math 87 or Alg. 1/2, or even if he should start back at the beginning of a text when he's really struggling.

[J&JMom]

I don't use Saxon math so take this with a grain of salt. But on my children's math tests I give each question equal weight regardless of complexity and use a correct/total question percentage.  If the score is less than 80% (my personal threshold for mastery), then they must rework the wrong questions again and receive half credit for every now correct answer.  I do this to emphasize to the student the value of doing it right the first time (could have gotten full credit), but also reward tenacity.  Last this tells me which areas truly need further review since the student had two attempts to get the problem correct.  I use Envision math for my 5th grader.  For AOPS for my 7th grader, the second attempt gets the same weight as the first.  I use this strategy in all subjects, not just math.

One last point about grades - I give percentage grades as positive feedback for their work. They understand the criteria or rubrics and therefore, expectations.  Grades simply illustrate their performance based on the expectations.  

[Ellie]

I don't use Saxon math so take this with a grain of salt. But on my children's math tests I give each question equal weight regardless of complexity and use a correct/total question percentage.  If the score is less than 80% (my personal threshold for mastery), then they must rework the wrong questions again and receive half credit for every now correct answer.  I do this to emphasize to the student the value of doing it right the first time (could have gotten full credit), but also reward tenacity.  Last this tells me which areas truly need further review since the student had two attempts to get the problem correct.  I use Envision math for my 5th grader.  For AOPS for my 7th grader, the second attempt gets the same weight as the first.  I use this strategy in all subjects, not just math.

One last point about grades - I give percentage grades as positive feedback for their work. They understand the criteria or rubrics and therefore, expectations.  Grades simply illustrate their performance based on the expectations.  

 

And if we were talking about other publishers than Saxon, I would say the same thing. Saxon is different. :-)

[amsunshine]

Unless you're doing Saxon Math 54 and above. Really.

 

Um, my girls are doing Algebra 2 and Advanced Maths, respectively.  I'm not sure what you mean by this comment.

[Ellie]

Um, my girls are doing Algebra 2 and Advanced Maths, respectively.  I'm not sure what you mean by this comment.

 

It means that if you're doing Saxon Math 54 and above, which would include Algebra 2 and Advanced Math, then you grade it as Saxon recommends. I haven't seen the tests for those, so I don't know what they look like. Unless the publisher says to give partial credit for answers, then you don't give partial credit, which is what this discussion is about.

[purpleowl]

It means that if you're doing Saxon Math 54 and above, which would include Algebra 2 and Advanced Math, then you grade it as Saxon recommends. I haven't seen the tests for those, so I don't know what they look like. Unless the publisher says to give partial credit for answers, then you don't give partial credit, which is what this discussion is about.

 

Or, you (the teacher) decide how to implement the materials you're using and you adjust things that you don't think are pedagogically sound, such as deducting all the possible points for a problem when the student has demonstrated understanding of the concept but made (for example) a transcription error.

 

The publisher is not infallible.

[SparklyUnicorn]

::shrugs:: We are not a math-y family. I don't see the point of completing algebra that young, especially not if the child isn't going to be graduated early and he'll be taking SATs/ACTs a couple of years after he has completed algebra. Others have said that it was problematic for their children, because it had been so long since they had studied algebra. IDK. My dc did c.c. instead of high school, so there you go. :-)

 

We aren't really mathy either.  Although I'm not quite sure what exactly it means to be mathy. 

 

It's not that we will stop doing math through high school. 

[Ellie]

Or, you (the teacher) decide how to implement the materials you're using and you adjust things that you don't think are pedagogically sound, such as deducting all the possible points for a problem when the student has demonstrated understanding of the concept but made (for example) a transcription error.

 

The publisher is not infallible.

 

Ok, whatever.

 

Saxon math is not like other math materials. We've had this discussion many times here, and I'm just not in the mood to discuss it any further. Y'all have a nice day. :seeya:

[amsunshine]

It means that if you're doing Saxon Math 54 and above, which would include Algebra 2 and Advanced Math, then you grade it as Saxon recommends. I haven't seen the tests for those, so I don't know what they look like. Unless the publisher says to give partial credit for answers, then you don't give partial credit, which is what this discussion is about.

 

Yes, I fully understand that is what this discussion is about.  First of all, the publisher does not provide anything within the materials that dictates a strict 5 point deduction regardless of how many parts there are to a problem, or otherwise.  It wouldn't make sense to do so, especially if part of a problem is correct -- that would deny a student credit for correctly done work.  It makes infinitely more sense to deduct up to five points per problem, depending on how many parts the student gets correct, and how much their work is correctly done, which demonstrates concept comprehension, particularly in the upper levels.  Your strict 5 point approach would seem to apply more in the lower levels, where the work is much simpler.  I can see you have the opposite view, but I seem to recall you don't have personal experience teaching Algebra and above, so it may be that you aren't as intimately familiar with the material as someone who personally does teach it.

 

We also use Hake Grammar and I use similar principles grading those tests.  Students get credit for what they get correct, and do not receive credit for what is incorrect.

[Omma]

Regarding the issue of doing Saxon 8/7 followed by Alg. 1/2 the following year, we did this.  Art Reed's suggestion was to check the last 5 or 6 tests of the year in 8/7.  If  the average was less than 80-85%, then he recommended taking another year and doing Alg. 1/2 instead of going directly to Alg. 1.  What we did was let our ds test out of Alg. 1/2 until his score was less than 80% and then start from there.  So we ended up skipping the first 25 lessons or so, but otherwise did both 8/7 and Alg. 1/2.  We are now just finishing up Alg. 1 and my dc has a B+ average, so it was the right decision for us.

 

Regarding test scores, I graded all or nothing for 8/7 and Alg. 1/2, following Art Reed's recommendation.  However, I have relaxed this rule for the last half of Alg. 1 and am now giving partial credit.  I think what is hard about this is that math is a subject that lends itself to objectivity...the answer is either right or wrong (compared to trying to grade an English Composition class, for example).  And yet once we get into giving partial credit...oh oh, subjectivity has entered the race and we have to decide whether it is fair to take off 2 or 3 or 5 points for an incorrect answer.  I guess we just do the best we can, trying to be as impartial a grader of our own dc as we can, and go on from there!

 

Blessings,

 

Brenda

[smoore530]

That's interesting because when I taught Saxon in a second grade classroom, there was a guide for grading each test. I think the word problems were usually 7 points and the basic arithmetic were 1 or 2. Drawing problems had a portion for the picture and a portion for the answer. Strange that the guides aren't included with the homeschool curriculum (they were printed on the answer keys).