Quote attributed to Columbus

[RubberChickenGirl2]

I am finding this quote all over the internets(sic):

“While I was in the boat I captured a very beautiful Carib woman, whom the said Lord Admiral gave to me, and with whom, having taken her into my cabin, she being naked according to their custom, I conceived desire to take pleasure. I wanted to put my desire into execution but she did not want it and treated me with her finger nails in such a manner that I wished I had never begun. But seeing that (to tell you the end of it all), I took a rope and thrashed her well, for which she raised such unheard of screams that you would not have believed your ears. Finally we came to an agreement in such manner that I can tell you that she seemed to have been brought up in a school of harlots.â€

 

Can anyone provide a source document?  I am finding many accusations  with little to no substantiation other than sources such as the Huffington Post.  I have a feeling that I will be reading many, many pages of Columbus journals and logs.  Unless someone can save me the time.

 

ETA:  I just sat and read the first place I found this reference again and I guess it was attributed to a friend of Columbus:

"On Columbus’s first trip to the Caribbean, he later returned to Spain and left behind 39 men who went ahead and helped themselves to Native women. Upon his return the men were all dead.With 1,200 more soldiers at his disposal, rape and pillaging became rampant as well as tolerated by Columbus.

This is supported by a reported close friend of Columbus, Michele de Cuneo who wrote the first disturbing account of a relation between himself and a Native female gift given to him by Columbus."

Read more athttp://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2013/10/14/8-myths-and-atrocities-about-christopher-columbus-and-columbus-day-151653

 

I'll have to read more closely, but I still would like a source document and more documentation of Columbus alleged attrocities.  I have just begun to read his journals and his tone is really quite lovely. He seems eager to learn and quite sincere and gentle.  I am just wondering where the truth lies between Columbus the Saint and Columbus the Devil.

 

[Mergath]

It wasn't a quote from Columbus. It was one of his buddies, and from a quick search it appears the girl was a gift to him from Columbus (the Lord Admiral).

 

http://www2.fiu.edu/~cookn/cuneo1.pdf

[Mergath]

If you're looking for quotes that were actually from Columbus himself, there's a great one in here where he expounds upon the profitability of prepubescent slave girls. Apparently nine and ten year olds were quite popular.  http://www.americanjourneys.org/pdf/AJ-067.pdf

 

"Now that so much gold is found, a dispute arises as to which brings more profit, whether to go about robbing or to go to the mines. A hundred castellanos are as easily obtained for a woman as for a farm, and it is very general, and there are plenty of dealers who go about looking for girls; those from nine to ten are now in demand, and for all ages a good price must be paid."

 

I don't even want to think about what the bottom end of "all ages" was. 

[RubberChickenGirl2]

Thanks for this.  I will have to take some time to read it to see if he is merely making observations or embracing these practices.

[MercyA]

According to his own son, Fernando, Columbus cut off the hands of natives who didn't meet their quota of gold.  

 

Here's a nice summary of exactly what kind of man Columbus was, in honor of Indigenous People's Day:

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day

[RubberChickenGirl2]

The Oatmeal that you linked above lists its source documents as such:

"Sources:

All of the information in this essay came from A People's History of the United States, by Howard Zinn, and Lies My Teacher Told Me, by James W. Loewen, both of which uses primary sources such as eyewitness accounts, journal entries, and letters from Christopher Columbus himself."

 

Not the type of source documents that I am after. WHERE did Fernando write/say that his father did this?

[Mergath]

Thanks for this.  I will have to take some time to read it to see if he is merely making observations or embracing these practices.

 

I'm pretty sure he embraced sexual slavery if he gave one to his buddy as a gift.

[momma2three]

It's a pretty clear matter of historical record that Columbus treated the Native population he met abominably.  It was so bad that I believe Queen "Spanish Inquisition" Isabella got upset and told him to knock it off.  He didn't listen.

[Mergath]

Here's a letter in which he brags that he can send their highnesses "slaves, as many as they shall order to be shipped and who will be from the idolaters."

 

http://mith.umd.edu/eada/html/display.php?docs=columbus_santangel.xml

[RubberChickenGirl2]

Slavery was standard practice unfortunately.  I still want a source of the quote by the friend about receiving the chick as a gift.

[Mergath]

Slavery was standard practice unfortunately.  I still want a source of the quote by the friend about receiving the chick as a gift.

 

Didn't you read my first link? It's from a letter written by Michele de Cuneo to Hieronymo Annari. De Cuneo was a buddy of Columbus and went with him on his second voyage. Here's another letter about how Columbus and his men shackled hundreds of men and women to be taken as slaves, executed one of the native kings, and when a few hundred of them died on the boat (apparently they froze to death) they just went ahead and chucked them into the ocean.

 

http://www.wright.edu/~christopher.oldstone-moore/Cuneo.htm

[MercyA]

The Oatmeal that you linked above lists its source documents as such:

"Sources:

All of the information in this essay came from A People's History of the United States, by Howard Zinn, and Lies My Teacher Told Me, by James W. Loewen, both of which uses primary sources such as eyewitness accounts, journal entries, and letters from Christopher Columbus himself."

 

Not the type of source documents that I am after. WHERE did Fernando write/say that his father did this?

 

That's a reasonable request. My small town library systems have both these books. Maybe yours does too?

 

Hope your search leads you to truth.

[RubberChickenGirl2]

Mergath, I got sidetracked with 52 open links and dinner and adult children descending upon the house. You know the drill.  I will revisit the links you provided hopefully this afternoon, but I do think if this bee in my bonnet lasts I will be reading for months.  Thanks so much for you help!

 

[RubberChickenGirl2]

I just sat down to read the letter and it is already interesting in the first 3 paragraphs of the introduction to it:

 

Cuneo accompanied the Second Voyage as a gentleman volunteer. There were at

least four other Genoese in the fleet; perhaps Cuneo was instrumental in bringing them

to Cadiz. He took part in the first exploring expedition under Hojeda to the interior of

Hispaniola, and with Columbus made the voyage of discovery to Cuba and Jamaica of

April-September 1494. Returning to Savona in 1495, he addressed this letter to a friend

and fellow-citizen, Hieronymo Annari, who had asked him for information about the

New World. His language is literary Italian, but contains a number of Genoese dialectal

expressIOns.

"*The original letter has disappeared.* The *existing manuscript, a copy* made about

1511by one JacopoRossetto,belongsto the Library of the Universityof Bologna,whose

librarian, Olindo Guerrini, first gave it to the world in 1885. *Its authenticity was then

challenged* because of inconsistencies in style; but it has passed the scrutiny of the paleographer

Carlo Malagola, Director of the Archives of Bologna, of Henry Harrisse, and of

Cesarede Lollis, who printed it in full in his Raccolta Colombiana III ii 95-107. De Lollis'stext

is the one used for this translation, which Miss Luisa Nordio, then Assistant Professor

of Italian at Vassar College, made for me in 1940, and which is, I believe, the first

complete one to be published.

Michelede Cuneo was a jolly dog and good raconteur, in contrast to Columbus"

2°9

210 THE SECOND VOYAGE OF DISCOVERY 1493-1496

"and the rather solemn Spaniardswho wrote on the early voyages. He didn't care whether

or not this was the Orient, or whether its discovery had been foretold in the Sacred Scriptures,

so long as he had a good time, which obviously he did. Although his narrative is

somewhat confused, it is valuable for personal touches, incidents that nobody else related,

and a lively account of fauna, flora and native manners and customs."

 

I don't know what text this was taken from to give an attribution at the moment.

***

 

ETA:  It is just interesting to me that the one quote I find plaster all over the internet to disparage Columbus has the features, that A.  It's a copy B.  It's authenticity was called into question although it eventually passed muster with the guy who wanted in on display in the museum C. incidents no one else has described.  D. The guy was party boy whose character was not similar to the rest of sailors including Columbus. So based on this, Columbus has been besmirched.  I'll continue in my quest...

 

[Mergath]

 

I just sat down to read the letter and it is already interesting in the first 3 paragraphs of the introduction to it:

 

Cuneo accompanied the Second Voyage as a gentleman volunteer. There were at

least four other Genoese in the fleet; perhaps Cuneo was instrumental in bringing them

to Cadiz. He took part in the first exploring expedition under Hojeda to the interior of

Hispaniola, and with Columbus made the voyage of discovery to Cuba and Jamaica of

April-September 1494. Returning to Savona in 1495, he addressed this letter to a friend

and fellow-citizen, Hieronymo Annari, who had asked him for information about the

New World. His language is literary Italian, but contains a number of Genoese dialectal

expressIOns.

"*The original letter has disappeared.* The *existing manuscript, a copy* made about

1511by one JacopoRossetto,belongsto the Library of the Universityof Bologna,whose

librarian, Olindo Guerrini, first gave it to the world in 1885. *Its authenticity was then

challenged* because of inconsistencies in style; but it has passed the scrutiny of the paleographer

Carlo Malagola, Director of the Archives of Bologna, of Henry Harrisse, and of

Cesarede Lollis, who printed it in full in his Raccolta Colombiana III ii 95-107. De Lollis'stext

is the one used for this translation, which Miss Luisa Nordio, then Assistant Professor

of Italian at Vassar College, made for me in 1940, and which is, I believe, the first

complete one to be published.

Michelede Cuneo was a jolly dog and good raconteur, in contrast to Columbus"

2°9

210 THE SECOND VOYAGE OF DISCOVERY 1493-1496

"and the rather solemn Spaniardswho wrote on the early voyages. He didn't care whether

or not this was the Orient, or whether its discovery had been foretold in the Sacred Scriptures,

so long as he had a good time, which obviously he did. Although his narrative is

somewhat confused, it is valuable for personal touches, incidents that nobody else related,

and a lively account of fauna, flora and native manners and customs."

 

I don't know what text this was taken from to give an attribution at the moment.

***

 

ETA:  It is just interesting to me that the one quote I find plaster all over the internet to disparage Columbus has the features, that A.  It's a copy B.  It's authenticity was called into question although it eventually passed muster with the guy who wanted in on display in the museum C. incidents no one else has described.  D. The guy was party boy whose character was not similar to the rest of sailors including Columbus. So based on this, Columbus has been besmirched.  I'll continue in my quest...

 

 

Lots of documents are copies. (ie. the Bible, anyone?) This one was authenticated by no less than three experts. And regardless of Cuneo's character, his sex slave was a GIFT FROM COLUMBUS. I don't know why that's so hard to grasp. And really, it doesn't even matter. Being a slave trader might not have been so bad of a thing at the time, but the point is that we don't need to lavish a bunch of hero worship and a national holiday on a slave trader now. And by all records, Columbus was a slave trader. He said so in his own letters. We can quibble all day about whether or not he branched out into sex trafficking, but it boggles the mind why any decent person wound be okay with him being a slave trader so long as he didn't use them for sex.

[albeto.]

n/m 

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

I just sat down to read the letter and it is already interesting in the first 3 paragraphs of the introduction to it:

 

Cuneo accompanied the Second Voyage as a gentleman volunteer. There were at

least four other Genoese in the fleet; perhaps Cuneo was instrumental in bringing them

to Cadiz. He took part in the first exploring expedition under Hojeda to the interior of

Hispaniola, and with Columbus made the voyage of discovery to Cuba and Jamaica of

April-September 1494. Returning to Savona in 1495, he addressed this letter to a friend

and fellow-citizen, Hieronymo Annari, who had asked him for information about the

New World. His language is literary Italian, but contains a number of Genoese dialectal

expressIOns.

"*The original letter has disappeared.* The *existing manuscript, a copy* made about

1511by one JacopoRossetto,belongsto the Library of the Universityof Bologna,whose

librarian, Olindo Guerrini, first gave it to the world in 1885. *Its authenticity was then

challenged* because of inconsistencies in style; but it has passed the scrutiny of the paleographer

Carlo Malagola, Director of the Archives of Bologna, of Henry Harrisse, and of

Cesarede Lollis, who printed it in full in his Raccolta Colombiana III ii 95-107. De Lollis'stext

is the one used for this translation, which Miss Luisa Nordio, then Assistant Professor

of Italian at Vassar College, made for me in 1940, and which is, I believe, the first

complete one to be published.

Michelede Cuneo was a jolly dog and good raconteur, in contrast to Columbus"

2°9

210 THE SECOND VOYAGE OF DISCOVERY 1493-1496

"and the rather solemn Spaniardswho wrote on the early voyages. He didn't care whether

or not this was the Orient, or whether its discovery had been foretold in the Sacred Scriptures,

so long as he had a good time, which obviously he did. Although his narrative is

somewhat confused, it is valuable for personal touches, incidents that nobody else related,

and a lively account of fauna, flora and native manners and customs."

 

I don't know what text this was taken from to give an attribution at the moment.

***

 

ETA:  It is just interesting to me that the one quote I find plaster all over the internet to disparage Columbus has the features, that A.  It's a copy B.  It's authenticity was called into question although it eventually passed muster with the guy who wanted in on display in the museum C. incidents no one else has described.  D. The guy was party boy whose character was not similar to the rest of sailors including Columbus. So based on this, Columbus has been besmirched.  I'll continue in my quest...

 

 

Columbus has been besmirched because of his own words and actions.  If you truly believe he is simply misunderstood, then party on I guess.

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Lots of documents are copies. (ie. the Bible, anyone?) This one was authenticated by no less than three experts. And regardless of Cuneo's character, his sex slave was a GIFT FROM COLUMBUS. I don't know why that's so hard to grasp. And really, it doesn't even matter. Being a slave trader might not have been so bad of a thing at the time, but the point is that we don't need to lavish a bunch of hero worship and a national holiday on a slave trader now. And by all records, Columbus was a slave trader. He said so in his own letters. We can quibble all day about whether or not he branched out into sex trafficking, but it boggles the mind why any decent person wound be okay with him being a slave trader so long as he didn't use them for sex.

 

And I find it rather unlikely that someone willing to enslave women and children didn't also engage in sexually abusing them, especially when that has been a common behavior among slave owners since...forever.

[Mergath]

And I find it rather unlikely that someone willing to enslave women and children didn't also engage in sexually abusing them, especially when that has been a common behavior among slave owners since...forever.

 

I do too. But even if we base our opinions only on cold, hard facts, there's plenty there for me to think it's completely inappropriate to give him a national holiday. 

[J-rap]

I wanted to add that our capital city is now calling what used to be Columbus Day,  "Indigenous Peoples Day."  Yay Twin Cities!! 

[Guest]

Well, originals aren't in English and are from before codified spelling, so that's a bust from the start.

 

But you can read some in translation if you're into that:

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Four-Voyages-Dispatches-Connecting/dp/0140442170/ref=pd_bxgy_14_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=12T0HW4JSQQX7Y0R93VK

 

http://www.amazon.com/Christopher-Columbus-Original-Documents-Relating/dp/1290419043

 

It's especially worth looking up similar letters and logs from his shipmates, and those from Mommy-Isabella to Columbus. Ahoy.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I do too. But even if we base our opinions only on cold, hard facts, there's plenty there for me to think it's completely inappropriate to give him a national holiday. 

 

Agreed.

 

Somewhat related by the Sopranos did an episode about Columbus Day that is one of my all time favorites.

[Tsuga]

Good lord.

 

Thank you, Mergath.

 

Also, if you really want original sources and to research this, consult your local librarian. That's what they are trained in. You will get much further.