Help for friend in PS -

[Dancer_Mom]

Child is in 1st grade public school (just turned 6)

 

Currently doing word problems such as Mary has 7 apples and needs 15 total for the party; how many more does she need?  They need to write the math sentence and then solve.

 

Mother directed her child to use tally marks to assist with solving the problem.  If relevant; this is the child's first time with this type of problem.

 

After her child took the homework back to class, mother was sent an email from the teacher telling her that her child should not be using tally marks or pictures to solve the problem.  She was instructed that the calculation should be done in her head and/or should be memorized.  Teacher also stated that if absolutely necessary she should tell her child to use her fingers. 

 

Friend came to me for advice.

 

Even though I am currently teaching  my own 1st graders similar concepts using manipulatives and pictorial representations, I was hesitant to tell her the teacher was completely wrong because... I don't know?  Is there some reason that I don't know about or understand why she would tell her that fingers are better than tally marks?  Or, should friend just keep doing what she is doing but use a separate page for the tally marks so it doesn't become an unnecessary battle?

 

What says the hive? 

 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

The teacher is completely wrong.  

[Ellie]

Child is in 1st grade public school (just turned 6)

 

Currently doing word problems such as Mary has 7 apples and needs 15 total for the party; how many more does she need?  They need to write the math sentence and then solve.

 

Mother directed her child to use tally marks to assist with solving the problem.  If relevant; this is the child's first time with this type of problem.

 

After her child took the homework back to class, mother was sent an email from the teacher telling her that her child should not be using tally marks or pictures to solve the problem.  She was instructed that the calculation should be done in her head and/or should be memorized.  Teacher also stated that if absolutely necessary she should tell her child to use her fingers. 

 

Friend came to me for advice.

 

Even though I am currently teaching  my own 1st graders similar concepts using manipulatives and pictorial representations, I was hesitant to tell her the teacher was completely wrong because... I don't know?  Is there some reason that I don't know about or understand why she would tell her that fingers are better than tally marks?  Or, should friend just keep doing what she is doing but use a separate page for the tally marks so it doesn't become an unnecessary battle?

 

What says the hive? 

 

I'm with the teacher (except for encouraging the child to use her fingers), although I'd like to see the exact e-mail from the teacher.

 

I'm guessing that the teacher is teaching the class something like number families (or whatever they're called, lol) (7+8=15, 8+1=15; 15-7=8; 15-8=7), and using them in word problems, so that they don't have to use hash marks (or fingers) to know the answer; also, that "how many more" means you must subtract to find the answer. That is how *I* would have helped my dc do that kind of problem.

 

[Alessandra]

Well, I used to be a member of NCTM, National Council of teachers of Mathematics.

 

One of my favorites articles in their magazine was about an exercise for teachers. A = 1, B = 2, and so on. Teachers were given sums like C+ D. They all used their fingers or other aids, like counting on. Point being made was that until number sense was firmly internalized, even simple operations are difficult. Allow kids to use aids.

 

I think objects, manipulatives, tallies, etc are all fine. Word problems are difficult enough conceptually.

 

And the way the problem was phrased -- has 7, needs 15 -- involves algebraic thinking. It is more sophisticated than 7 + 8 or even 15 - 7.

 

But Ellie's point about number families would change how I looked at it. If there were a whole page of sevens and eights,magain and again, I could see not using rallies each time.

[umsami]

BS.  Sorry.  Tally marks, manipulatives, number lines, and pictures are perfectly fine for 1st grade, so are counters.  Have had kids in public school and charters at that age.

 

Is this a new teacher?  Honestly, I'd worry if she's advising all of her first graders to not use anything like manipulative or whatever.  It's first grade.  Barely October.  

 

[Ellie]

Well, I used to be a member of NCTM, National Council of teachers of Mathematics.

 

One of my favorites articles in their magazine was about an exercise for teachers. A = 1, B = 2, and so on. Teachers were given sums like C+ D. They all used their fingers or other aids, like counting on. Point being made was that until number sense was firmly internalized, even simple operations are difficult. Allow kids to use aids.

 

I think objects, manipulatives, tallies, etc are all fine. Word problems are difficult enough conceptually.

 

And the way the problem was phrased -- has 7, needs 15 -- involves algebraic thinking. It is more sophisticated than 7 + 8 or even 15 - 7.

 

I remember doing problems like this in elementary, long before I did algebra in 10th grade. Children who are taught all the parts of things (7+8, 8+7, 15-8, 15-7) don't need to use fingers or counting aids, and they *do* develop and internalize number sense. However, I would not expect children who are only 6yo to be able to do that kind of problem in October of first grade. I think they are being set up for failure. But that's just me. :-)

[Kiara.I]

My concern would be if the child is counting to find the answer.  It is one way to solve the problem, yes.  But it does work better if the answer can be "seen" rather than counted up to.

 

We use Rightstart.  So we'd absolutely use tally sticks, but the idea wouldn't be to count them, but rather to be able to perceive the amounts.

[mamiof5]

I see how if you want them to use the concept of fact families then yeah, no counting wanted. What I don't get is why she's not OK with using talky marks or other manipulatives, but encourages finger counting??

[greyseal]

I see how if you want them to use the concept of fact families then yeah, no counting wanted. What I don't get is why she's not OK with using talky marks or other manipulatives, but encourages finger counting??

 

I'm with you! I don't get the difference between making a tally mark and using fingers. If anything, I am biased against finger counting, but that may be a personal preference. I'm always telling my DS to get the abacus.

[Tsuga]

The teacher is completely wrong.  

 

The teacher is wrong to forbid it (though I would also say she'd be wrong to require it if the child shows math aptitude).

 

I am on my second child in public primary schools. FWIW, one of my children actually attends one of the top schools nationally.

 

They encourage children to draw any diagram of their choice, provided it expresses quantity in some form, to "prove" their equations.

 

They actually do not go straight to equations until the third grade. Until then, it is painful work with manipulatives, dots, and ten sticks. Again and again and again.

 

Every day they have to make a drawing or draw a story for a word problem or two. They are encouraged to think up their own pictures. They can use sticks and dots, but they can also be more imaginative. The drawing is not graded except insofar as it shows quantity (i.e. draw seven circles for apples; draw fifteen circles for apples and cross out seven of them and circle the remaining eight).

 

In fact I have seen so many of these I bought my second child a dauber to draw the damned dots.

 

 

 

 

I'm guessing that the teacher is teaching the class something like number families (or whatever they're called, lol) (7+8=15, 8+1=15; 15-7=8; 15-8=7), and using them in word problems, so that they don't have to use hash marks (or fingers) to know the answer; also, that "how many more" means you must subtract to find the answer. That is how *I* would have helped my dc do that kind of problem.

 

In first grade, though? At this time of year? Some of them are barely over five. For us, they have number family work, for sure. But word problems are different. That's when they are translating concrete situations into abstract symbols. Both of my kids were able to do it without drawings but when challenged, the ability to draw sure helps.

 

I would expect a child to be beyond tally marks for basic arithmetic by third grade at the latest. I'd work to have them drop this through second. But at the beginning of first I would expect some kids not to be developmentally ready.

[rebbyribs]

I have 2 homeschooled first graders this year.  One of them would solve the problem with tally marks, and the other would solve it mentally.  Both would need some encouragement to write down the number sentence and would probably write it as 7+8=15 rather than thinking of it as a subtraction problem.  

 

 

Every day they have to make a drawing or draw a story for a word problem or two. They are encouraged to think up their own pictures. They can use sticks and dots, but they can also be more imaginative. The drawing is not graded except insofar as it shows quantity (i.e. draw seven circles for apples; draw fifteen circles for apples and cross out seven of them and circle the remaining eight).

 

In fact I have seen so many of these I bought my second child a dauber to draw the damned dots.

 

My oldest child did this type of math in first grade in a private school.  I realized it wasn't working well for her when I saw some of her drawings of how she solved the problem by counting on her fingers and the hands she drew had 6 or more fingers each.  (She was doing mental math to solve the problems correctly, but having a hard time getting a diagram down on paper.)

[Arcadia]

Is there some reason that I don't know about or understand why she would tell her that fingers are better than tally marks?

Envision K math worksheet that oldest used to bring home from PS have them write

 

7 + (symbol such as square, circle or triangle) = 15

Symbol = 8

 

Are they doing computer based tests for math in school? Something like Study Island or Khan? Then using fingers would be faster than getting a piece of paper for scrap/rough work.

[Arcadia]

Double post

[kiwik]

ds6 said 8 because 7+7 = 14 and one more is 15. He is 3/4 of the way through the equivalent of first grade though.

 

I wouldn't expect a 6 year old to need tally marks for that but if they do they do.

[carriede]

My 1st grader is doing problems just like these. But, he's doing Math Mammoth 2...not 1! There may have been a few like that in the 1b book, but manipulatives were welcome.

 

I really don't know what to do about the teacher... maybe find the standards the school uses and show its above grade level, especially so early in the year.

 

Edited for typos.

[mamiof5]

My 1st grader is doing problems just like these. But, he's doing Math Mammoth 2...not 1! There may have been a few like that in the 1b book, but manipulatives were welcome.

 

I really don't know what to do about the teacher... maybe find the standards the school uses and show its above grade level, especially so early in the year.

 

Edited for typos.

Aha! Maybe you just gave us part of the answer! Lots of schools now teach K the first quarter, so in 1st grade they are teaching 2nd grade Math. Maybe this school is like this? Now...just need to understand why would finger counting be OK, but not tally marks? Still puzzled about that one :P

[SKL]

I would take it as "this is the format in which the teacher wants the answer.  Use aids if you need them to find the answer, then just write the answer on the sheet."

 

It sounds like the teacher is saying "your kid should know more than she does," which isn't very helpful.

 

One of my kids was a little slow to develop "number sense."  When she was in 1st and even 2nd grade, I pulled out the manipulatives and made my kid use them until I was satisfied that she understood what she was doing.  On homework worksheets, we only wrote whatever the teacher expected.  Homework / review took way too long, but at least she was building some concepts.  Otherwise I don't know how she could have progressed at the rate the schools expect.

[kiwik]

My 1st grader is doing problems just like these. But, he's doing Math Mammoth 2...not 1! There may have been a few like that in the 1b book, but manipulatives were welcome.

 

I really don't know what to do about the teacher... maybe find the standards the school uses and show its above grade level, especially so early in the year.

 

Edited for typos.

Actually that is true of my son. He is doing grade 2 topic books but he only started a couple of months ago. I would agree with SKL. Use manipulatives then write the answer. I would use beads or something rather than tally marks though. Fingers are preferred here too - i think it is because they don't get lost or make a mess but they do also enforce the base ten system as eleven has to be use both hands then another one.

[Dancer_Mom]

I would take it as "this is the format in which the teacher wants the answer.  Use aids if you need them to find the answer, then just write the answer on the sheet."

 

It sounds like the teacher is saying "your kid should know more than she does," which isn't very helpful.

 

One of my kids was a little slow to develop "number sense."  When she was in 1st and even 2nd grade, I pulled out the manipulatives and made my kid use them until I was satisfied that she understood what she was doing.  On homework worksheets, we only wrote whatever the teacher expected.  Homework / review took way too long, but at least she was building some concepts.  Otherwise I don't know how she could have progressed at the rate the schools expect.

 

Yes - this is the impression I got from the mom.  She was feeling overall rattled and that there was some underlying criticism that her child couldn't solve it yet without some aids. 

 

I was considering suggesting this approach to her but wanted to be more confident before I did.   Thanks for the responses.

 

[kiwik]

I do rwcommend a slow (one page a day) run through MM add and subtract 2a to help solidify skills.

[SanDiegoMom]

My kids were in a great school k-2. They were instructed to use tally marks or diagrams to solve every problem. It was required. They did concrete to pictorial to abstract -- abstract wasn't expected until, well, she was still allowed to do tally marks in 2nd and we homeschooled in third! Tally marks I would think are highly preferable to fingers.

[SKL]

I wasn't fond of the requirement to draw pictures in the 2nd grade either.  Actually, I found that obnoxious.  :P  For those who are helped by that, it should be encouraged.  For those who could answer the question in a split second without lifting a pencil, not so much.  I think teachers should just be thankful for parents who are trying to help their kids however their kids learn best.

[Sahamamama]

The teacher is completely wrong.  

 

:iagree: I agree, why not tally? How is that any different than using a number line? I think that at the beginning of First Grade, a number line should be just fine for that type of word problem. Tally marks are short of quicker and easier to do, right? Separate paper. ;)

 

Mary has 7 apples. She needs 15 apples for the party. How many more apples does Mary need? So, let's count up to 15... (making tally marks) 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15. How many tally marks? Eight. So, she needs 8 more apples for the party.

 

Perhaps the teacher wants the child to internalize that "how many more" or "how much more" or "how much less" or "how many fewer" types of problems are using subtraction to compare two numbers? But children internalize these abstractions through working problems over time. I probably would be drawing some bar diagrams and/or using C-rods, showing the "have" quantity of 7 and the "need" quantity of 15, then ask the child to compare what we have with what we need. What quantity -- "how many more" -- will get us from 7 to 15? Or just use a number line! Or tally marks!

 

I think what bothers me more about this thread is not that the mother "should" or "shouldn't" use tally marks, but that the teacher had the nerve to send this positively involved mother an email to scold her for not using the "one right way" to help a six year old with a "how many more" math problem. :cursing: I would be emailing her back. Seriously.

[Professormom]

ds6 said 8 because 7+7 = 14 and one more is 15. He is 3/4 of the way through the equivalent of first grade though.

 

I wouldn't expect a 6 year old to need tally marks for that but if they do they do.

Sounds to me like he is using good mental math skills there:-) Many math curricula actually use concrete drawings for these types of problems (and tally marks are basically drawing out the pieces.) I know Horizons does, Singapore... There are more. However, they ALSO need to be working on internalizing the math facts involved via memorization. These methods should be used together to create synergy in the development of math skills.

 

That said, I cannot imagine requiring that at in Oct of the 1st grade year?!

 

I would wonder, as pp said, if they are doing something computerized?

[Professormom]

I wasn't fond of the requirement to draw pictures in the 2nd grade either. Actually, I found that obnoxious. :P For those who are helped by that, it should be encouraged. For those who could answer the question in a split second without lifting a pencil, not so much. I think teachers should just be thankful for parents who are trying to help their kids however their kids learn best.

:wub:

[Farrar]

Honestly, what terrible advice from the teacher. Maybe the goal is to get beyond the tally marks - and I agree that number families is the ultimate goal and that tally marks is not the best strategy (Cuisenaire rods forever!!!!). But in the second month of first grade, kids should have plenty of leeway to not be there yet. For goodness sake. And then, to criticize the mom for trying to help her kid get there? What does the teacher do in class, stand there and say, "Just do it! Why is my telling you to do it not making you able to do it!"

[zoobie]

I tell my 6th grader to draw a picture if she gets stuck on a word problem. It's a problem solving skill. The teacher's advice is odd, so I would follow up with the teacher. Maybe they're doing bar diagrams instead of tally marks. I would be surprised if the district is using an elementary curriculum without any sort of physical representation method, especially given Common Core. Even states that aren't doing Common Core use similar math curricula.