Any experience living in Brazil or Mexico? ETA: experience with other Latin American countries welcome also

[maize]

If you had a chance to move to one of these countries with the hope of living there permanently, what would be the advantages or disadvantages of each? Any information is welcome, particularly first hand experience. How is the job market? Crime rate/safety concerns? What about opportunities for kids growing up there--future job prospects, maybe university? Ease of homeschooling? Quality of public and private schools? Ease of obtaining permanent residency or citizenship?

 

Asking for a friend not myself, though I would love to have a chance to live in either. 

 

ETA: Insight into other Latin American countries is also welcome!

[Melinda in VT]

I've been to Mexico a few times; never been to Brazil.

 

DH and I have talked about spending at least part of our early retirement in Latin America, although we haven't considered Brazil because we want to stick to Spanish-speaking countries. (DH is fluent.) We have talked about Argentina.

 

Mexico's main advantage over a South American country is that it'd be a shorter trip back to the U.S. and our family here.

 

It's my understanding that there would be no path to citizenship in Mexico, but that if you have enough money you can stay there long term. Not sure if you have to cross the border every so often or jump through other hoops for that.

 

I love to read, and I've always found a book club anywhere we live, so I'd need to live somewhere with a large enough English-speaking expat community to have a book club and a lending library.

 

 

[Lanny]

There are people here on WTM who live in Mexico. I would vote for Mexico.  There was a WTM family living in Brazil that I communicated with. As I recall  the mother did not like living in Brazil and was happy when they returned to Texas.. The job market? If you a a foreigner and want to work overseas, unless you have some very special skill that is not available in that country, you will need your corporate employer to get a visa that permits you to work, and if your skill is in short supply, they will issue a visa that permits you to work..  If you have the $ to start your own business, that's another matter and probably a visa that permits one to do that is much easier to get than a visa that permits one to work as an employee.  BTW, if one works, the wages in either country would probably be *far* below wages in the USA. Check out the U.S. tax and banking laws for Overseas Americans:  https://americansabroad.org/

[Lanny]

<snip>

We have talked about Argentina.

<snip>

 

 

Are you Americans?  If so, I strongly suggest you reconsider your interest in Argentina.  Also, I would eliminate Venezuela and Ecuador from consideration. (There are probably many Americans who live in Argentina and are happy there, but I don't think I would suggest it to anyone considering retirement in South America)

 

Disregarding nationality, Argentina has other problems which I would prefer not to be subject to.

[Melinda in VT]

Are you Americans?  If so, I strongly suggest you reconsider your interest in Argentina.  Also, I would eliminate Venezuela and Ecuador from consideration. (There are probably many Americans who live in Argentina and are happy there, but I don't think I would suggest it to anyone considering retirement in South America)

 

Disregarding nationality, Argentina has other problems which I would prefer not to be subject to.

 

Can you elaborate? Our Argentinian Spanish teachers have never had anything bad to say about Argentina. ;-)

 

PM is fine if you prefer that.

[maize]

I am also interested in know what might make a country not a good fit for an American specifically? Is political climate the concern?

[TheReader]

Lanny is half-right; I liked Brazil, but not for permanent ilving, especially not for homeschooling. 

 

When we were first there, homeschooling was still legal; then while we were there, a family challenged the law (trying to get it made more clear that homeschooling was legal, as it was very vague/open to interpretation). This backfired and the Brazilian congress ended up voting to make it illegal to homeschool in Brazil. We enrolled our kids in an on-line school for the remainder of our time in Brazil, in order to comply. 

 

Pros/Cons about Brazil -- 

 

--as mentioned, it is illegal to homeschool. Public schools (pre-University) are horrible there; private schools (pre-University) are mostly very good, but very expensive. Even as ex-pats there on US salaries & benefits, we could not afford private school for all 3 of our children.  (some foreign owned companies will pay for this, in which case, problem solved; our company would only chip in a portion)

 

--Universities are reverse; the public universities (free to attend for permanent residents/citizens) are phenomenal, but very hard to get into; the private pay universities are not as good (and vary in cost). So, long term, this was one of the big reasons we returned to the US; our oldest son was nearing University age, and we did not wish him to attend university in Brazil since we did not plan to stay forever.

 

--the people in Brazil are amazing, wonderful, kind,....I cannot say enough good things to cover this. 

 

--VERY child friendly place. Very. Almost to the point of being hard to parent, because kids aren't often told no....and yet, they also aren't brats, because everyone is involved. Very much a "village" type place (in an "it takes a village" kind of way). 

 

Cons:

-- Expensive. Yes, right now the dollar to real ratio is fantastic for dollars, but things in Brazil are expensive. EXPENSIVE. Food is decent (fresh items), but anything packaged is insane. Double or triple the cost of things in the US. Non-food items are even higher. This is due to import taxes (and other taxes) which are crazy high. If you'll be living on dollars and converting, expect the exchange rate to fluctuate, greatly. In the time we were there, it was roughly $2 BR to $1 US....then was $1.50 BR to $1 US....then was $2.50 BR to $1 US......then closer to $3 BR to $1 US......now it is almost $4 BR to $1 US, so right now, very cheap to go live on the dollar. On the flip side, it won't stay that way, and if you are living on the local economy {paid in BR Reais} and have *any* US bills to pay......it's hard and expensive. Have I mentioned that??? (seriously. We loved it, but it is pricey). 

 

--Gov't Corruption. Google Petrobras Scandal & Dilma and read all you can. That will give you tip of the iceberg re: Brazilian politics. I won't go into it here but....not a place we would settle long term. 

 

As far as job opportunity; if you are hoping to be employeed as an expat, the company hiring you has to jump through many hoops, get the proper visas, etc. The employment situation locally is I think hard to break into, depending on field. Lots of unemployment. 

 

Residency -- we were there on a work visa, good for 2 years, then renewable for 2 more years, and then we could apply for permanent residency (which we got). I don't know the ins & outs of it if you are not there on a work visa; if you have a child born there, you can get it; if you marry a Brazilian you can get it; if you live in country on an appropriate visa for long enough, you can apply for it. It takes a long time, and then once you have it, if you leave, you must return every 2 yrs to maintain it. 

 

I have to run, but if your friend has more questions about Brazil, feel free to message me. I'll check back later today. Overall -- loved it, but not to live there forever. At all. 

[maize]

Lanny is half-right; I liked Brazil, but not for permanent ilving, especially not for homeschooling. 

 

When we were first there, homeschooling was still legal; then while we were there, a family challenged the law (trying to get it made more clear that homeschooling was legal, as it was very vague/open to interpretation). This backfired and the Brazilian congress ended up voting to make it illegal to homeschool in Brazil. We enrolled our kids in an on-line school for the remainder of our time in Brazil, in order to comply. 

 

Pros/Cons about Brazil -- 

 

--as mentioned, it is illegal to homeschool. Public schools (pre-University) are horrible there; private schools (pre-University) are mostly very good, but very expensive. Even as ex-pats there on US salaries & benefits, we could not afford private school for all 3 of our children.  (some foreign owned companies will pay for this, in which case, problem solved; our company would only chip in a portion)

 

--Universities are reverse; the public universities (free to attend for permanent residents/citizens) are phenomenal, but very hard to get into; the private pay universities are not as good (and vary in cost). So, long term, this was one of the big reasons we returned to the US; our oldest son was nearing University age, and we did not wish him to attend university in Brazil since we did not plan to stay forever.

 

--the people in Brazil are amazing, wonderful, kind,....I cannot say enough good things to cover this. 

 

--VERY child friendly place. Very. Almost to the point of being hard to parent, because kids aren't often told no....and yet, they also aren't brats, because everyone is involved. Very much a "village" type place (in an "it takes a village" kind of way). 

 

Cons:

-- Expensive. Yes, right now the dollar to real ratio is fantastic for dollars, but things in Brazil are expensive. EXPENSIVE. Food is decent (fresh items), but anything packaged is insane. Double or triple the cost of things in the US. Non-food items are even higher. This is due to import taxes (and other taxes) which are crazy high. If you'll be living on dollars and converting, expect the exchange rate to fluctuate, greatly. In the time we were there, it was roughly $2 BR to $1 US....then was $1.50 BR to $1 US....then was $2.50 BR to $1 US......then closer to $3 BR to $1 US......now it is almost $4 BR to $1 US, so right now, very cheap to go live on the dollar. On the flip side, it won't stay that way, and if you are living on the local economy {paid in BR Reais} and have *any* US bills to pay......it's hard and expensive. Have I mentioned that??? (seriously. We loved it, but it is pricey). 

 

--Gov't Corruption. Google Petrobras Scandal & Dilma and read all you can. That will give you tip of the iceberg re: Brazilian politics. I won't go into it here but....not a place we would settle long term. 

 

As far as job opportunity; if you are hoping to be employeed as an expat, the company hiring you has to jump through many hoops, get the proper visas, etc. The employment situation locally is I think hard to break into, depending on field. Lots of unemployment. 

 

Residency -- we were there on a work visa, good for 2 years, then renewable for 2 more years, and then we could apply for permanent residency (which we got). I don't know the ins & outs of it if you are not there on a work visa; if you have a child born there, you can get it; if you marry a Brazilian you can get it; if you live in country on an appropriate visa for long enough, you can apply for it. It takes a long time, and then once you have it, if you leave, you must return every 2 yrs to maintain it. 

 

I have to run, but if your friend has more questions about Brazil, feel free to message me. I'll check back later today. Overall -- loved it, but not to live there forever. At all. 

 

Thank you so much, this is very helpful!

[OneStepAtATime]

What if the person were not from the U.S. would that make a significant difference either positively or negatively for Mexico or Brazil?

 

And in Mexico, would Mexico City be the best option, or another city?

[Lanny]

Can you elaborate? Our Argentinian Spanish teachers have never had anything bad to say about Argentina. ;-)

 

PM is fine if you prefer that.

 

 

Your Spanish teachers live in the USA?     :huh:    Catering to Nazis and Iranians is one thing.  The situation of the government and the financial restrictions are others. Etc. Like in most countries, although the government is "Anti American", many of the citizens are very friendly to Americans. Look at the government ties to Iranian terrorist organizations (Hezbollah,etc.) and at the scheduled airline flight from Iran to Buenos Aires, that you cannot book a seat on. The government cover up of the terrorist attack on the Jewish Center, etc. The government was involved in that?

 

BTW, when we were in a gift shop in the Bogota airport, last October, my wife began talking with a family from Argentina that were enroute to the Dominican Republic for their vacation. We had a wonderful talk with them and are now Facebook friends. They also are fans of my favorite singer. There are many very nice people in Argentina, just as there are in Venezuela (I considered living there in 1991) and I assume just as there are in Ecuador and in every other country you might consider moving to.

 

I just noticed that your title has the ETA for other Latin American countries. I moved to Colombia more than 20 years ago and things here have improved greatly during those years. We have probably the most stable and successful economy in Latin America, although we are now getting pounded, because of the drop in the price of Petroleum, which was about 20% of the income of the government. That caused a huge devaluation of the Colombian Peso VS the U.S. Dollar and our purchasing power (my income is in U.S. Dollars) is now very strong, after being very weak for approximately ten (10) years.

 

BTW, Argentinians are not well liked by other Latin Americans, because of their arrogance, etc.   Probably everyone there is White?

[Minerva]

I live in Central America (not a country that has been mentioned yet). I would be happy to answer questions to you privately if you PM me.

[chiguirre]

I lived in Buenos Aires back in the early 90s and Venezuela for 10 years until 2003. I liked both but prefer Caracas for climate and culture. I wouldn't recommend either right now, but wait a decade and things might change.

 

The scandal in Argentina is similar to Iran-Contra back in the Reagan years in the US. It's not Argentina's finest moment but it doesn't make them a terrorist state either. There are elections coming up and Cristina Fernandez will be gone. Then there will likely be a devaluation/inflation crisis before things even out again. Argentines do have a reputation for arrogance, but it's no more true than the Mexicans' reputation for being ugly, Colombians' reputation for being sneaky or Venezuelans' reputation for being stupid. They make for some very funny non-pc jokes but that's all they're worth. There are indigenous people in Argentina and lots of Bolivian and Paraguayan immigrants.

 

Venezuela is just an unmitigated disaster right now but who knows how things will turn out in 10 years. Nobody would have believed Colombia would be so much better back in the 80s. That's the thing about Latin America, it's very volatile. You have to be flexible and keep your savings in dollars or euros.

[chiguirre]

How is the job market? Crime rate/safety concerns? What about opportunities for kids growing up there--future job prospects, maybe university? Ease of homeschooling? Quality of public and private schools? Ease of obtaining permanent residency or citizenship?

 

Asking for a friend not myself, though I would love to have a chance to live in either.

 

ETA: Insight into other Latin American countries is also welcome!

Job prospects are never as good in Latin America as they are in the US. Pay is never as high unless the currency is very overvalued and then you have the problem of living expenses. Middle class families send their kids to private school and this takes a big bite out of their disposable income. University is often free or very inexpensive but it's just for studying not an American style college experience. There is a lot more crime than there is in the US.

 

So why on earth would someone move to Latin America?

 

It's beautiful in many places and people are generally kind and welcoming. They deal with all the logistical challenges with humor and ingenuity. Even though you won't have as much stuff, you might enjoy your life more. But this depends on your personality and your community connections more than it does on the country you choose.

[yucabird]

I live in Mexico, south of Cancun.  There are a number of HSers in our area, and the numbers are growing.

 

Mine is also an international community, so there are opportunities to learn other languages besides Spanish.  (I can count over 10 different nationalities along our little street.)  One of my daughters is taking an online German course and gets to practice with our neighbors!    

     
Most everyone speaks at least a little English, but that is not always great for HSers….believe it or not, it can be a challenge for some to receive enough Spanish practice.

 

Parts of our area are stunningly beautiful, but the summertime is quite hot and humid.  There are a number of ruin sites, but otherwise, there aren’t a lot of cultural opportunities (though this is changing).  In a place like Merida there is an arts scene, but summers would be unbearably hot (here we get the breeze from the beach).

 

Unless a foreigner can do a job a local cannot, then it can be difficult to find employment.  Pay would probably be much lower than you would expect.  Many foreigners start companies; though some succeed, a larger number fail.

 

There is a slower pace to living here, which is great when you are sitting on the beach drinking a margarita and eating shrimp tacos.  But this slower place can also be incredibly frustrating sometimes.

[KrissiK]

I lived in São Paulo for 2 years about 15 years ago. I taught at a missionary school. I'm not sure where in Brazil you would be planning on moving but.... São Paulo is an adventure every day. If you plan a couple hours in the US to run errands, you'd need the entire day to do the same thing in SP. Traffic is insane. A lot of expats I knew had drivers. Crime rate? Well, I don't have statistics, but everyone I knew had brick/cement walls surrounding their homes with broken glass (sharp side up) imbedded in cement on the top of the wall. So, you can guess what the crime rate was. Overall, I loved living there for the 2 years I was there. However, I was immersed in the American/Missionary community and so had a ton of support. I think if I wasn't in that environment I would have had a different experience. The Brazilians are lovely people, the food is amazing, and it's a gorgeous country.

[TheReader]

What if the person were not from the U.S. would that make a significant difference either positively or negatively for Mexico or Brazil?

 

And in Mexico, would Mexico City be the best option, or another city?

 

In Brazil, if the person were from one of the other S. American countries, it might be easier re: the residency issue but everything else I mentioned would be the same no matter where you come from (just sub in the appropriate foreign currency).  Visas to enter the country would be easier for non-US (depending on the country) as far as visiting/tourist visa, but likely not for residency visas, although I'm not sure on that. 

 

The difficulties we faced in Brazil were not at all related to us being American, really. No animosity or anything like that, other than the mild "you'll be overcharged at the fruit market because they know you are a gringo" stuff. That would be similar no matter where you come from (unless you are fluent enough in Portuguese to speak without an accent). 

 

Also, I didn't address crime yesterday.....I see KrissiK mentioned it, but I wanted to elaborate a little. We did live in a gated community --- and by gated, I mean a 10 ft cement wall around the entire neighborhood, with electric wire atop that, with razor wire around that, and with gates kept locked at all times, with a double entrance gate (so you enter one, it closes behind you, you speak to the gate guard who grants you access based on a decal on your car or entering your personal code, and then the 2nd gate opens in front of you). While living there, the community did experience some armed break-ins (people getting over the wall via a tree that wasn't trimmed well), and after that happened our gate guards began carrying pistols. 

 

Our home within that community had one door in the front yard but the driveway had a gate across it and our backyard was totally walled in (8 ft concrete wall), and our windows all had wooden shutters that we usually closed at night (the windows slid open like sliding doors). 

 

All that said -- we never felt particularly unsafe, although we always felt very aware that petty crime could and did happen, and we were appropriately cautious as a result. I did not wear my wedding ring (I bought a cheap plain band there, which I wore instead), I did not wear any other jewelry except the occasional piece from the fair (wooden beads, that sort of thing), we never left doors unlocked at home or in the car, we never rode with car windows down, I carried my purse across my body and under my jacket (sometimes carrying that plus a "dummy bag" which was larger with nothing of substance inside) (many many many Brazilian women do this, always, at least where we lived). We never went to the ATM at night (and rarely used any ATM except the one inside our bank, which you could only access during bank hours or after hours, only if you had an ATM card for that bank), etc. Just general "big city" safety stuff. It sounds worse, writing it out, than what it felt like. Safety was not one of the reasons we moved home, at all, even though it did require a different level of awareness and caution. 

 

We were there for six years, and both loved and hated it at the same time. I can ramble for hours, so I'll stop there and just say again, if anyone has questions, ask. 

[J-rap]

My daughter has lived in a Latin American country for 5+ years, and we spend several months each year down there too.  (You can PM me for the country.) 

 

Our family has had a wonderful experience living there, although my daughter and her husband will be moving up here soon, so we probably won't be going down there as often anymore.  Darn!  (That's okay, we'd rather have them here.)  It can definitely work-out permanently if you can adapt!  We met plenty of families there who have done that.  I have no idea what the homeschool situation is there though.  Also, I don't know the job situation.  I know plenty of U.S. Americans retire there, but I would not guess that getting a job down there is easy unless a company brings you down.

 

PROS:

 

You get to experience a different culture, which is a wonderful and eye-opening experience for your whole family. 

You become even closer as a family because you are on this new adventure together.

It pushes you outside your comfort zone. 

You (hopefully) learn another language.

The countryside is absolutely beautiful.

The food (if you eat local food) is delicious and less-expensive than here.

If you live in a major city, public transportation is usually very good because many people don't have cars.

In our country, people were very friendly (often in a quiet way) and polite, genteel.   They were often more mannerly there than we are used to.  (little things like -- always greeting each person individually at a gathering, and saying good-bye to each person individually when leaving, always asking about each person's family members, rarely eating food with their fingers -- even pizza! :))

 

CONS:

 

Traffic is crazy, and roads are too.

Little things that we take for granted -- such as nice, even sidewalks and trash picked up regularly, are difficult there.  Sidewalks, even in the capitol, are dangerous!  haha, holes, crumbling, often piled with garbage that hasn't been picked up for a few days. 

A sense of time and urgency is not as prevalent (that has its advantages too, of course!).  So if you have a plan to meet someone at 2:00, they might show up at 3:00 and not think it is a big deal.  :)

Petty crime is rampant.  Most inner-city homes and business have metal gates around them, or at least over the windows and doors.  The gated communities that are in the suburbs have those too, only higher.  We had two metal fences around our entire home, plus 2 security guards 24-hours/day.

If you leave your car parked on the street overnight, you are taking a risk.  My daughter and husband live in a tiny apartment right in the city.  There are private lots every few blocks or so with security guards, so my SIL drives their car there every night before bed.  (Because they live right in the city in an older barrio, there are no garages or safe places to leave their cars overnight.)

 

The PROS definitely outweigh the CONS!

[TheReader]

I have a question. 

 

Does the safety situation you describe apply to everyone, or just to foreigners? Some people do not have money to live in gated communities, but those same people are also more unlikely to have possessions worth protecting from burglars. Since you mentioned petty crime, are the safety issues mainly related to stealing objects, or are things like rape and murder real concerns as well?

 

I have a friend who lived in India (with her Indian husband), in a poor rural community, for instance. She mentioned that the house got burgled every time they went to visit another city, but since they had nothing of value, all they had to do was clean up the mess the burglars left :). 

 

Outside of the gated communities, all of the houses (ALL of them) have the walls with wire around their individual home. The wall would be an 8 to 10 ft concrete/brick wall, with either one (or a combo of) the following on top: electric wire, razor wire, broken glass embedded into the top (sharp edges out), etc. Plus most of those homes would also have sort of burglar bars/metal grates on the windows (most of the ones we saw). 

 

So, yes. Everyone, not just foreigners. 

 

Now, the crime we dealt with was mostly theft -- ATM robberies were common, carjacking was somewhat common, theft of purse, bag, watch, pickpocket, etc, was common. A friend of a friend had all her jewelry stolen from her (and her purse) while exiting the ATM once. Another friend of a friend (different friends) (and this was a national, not a foreigner), had her car stolen from her driveway when she was returning home or getting ready to leave (ie, carjacked from her driveway). Most of the crime we were aware of and dealt with/took caution of, was not violent at all though. 

 

Now, in the favelas (the poor areas, usually controlled by drug kings), there could be more violent crime. We didn't really go into those areas, at all. (and some of them aren't so violent but some are). 

 

Like I said, mostly we never felt unsafe, just cautiously aware of what could happen. 

[maize]

Outside of the gated communities, all of the houses (ALL of them) have the walls with wire around their individual home. The wall would be an 8 to 10 ft concrete/brick wall, with either one (or a combo of) the following on top: electric wire, razor wire, broken glass embedded into the top (sharp edges out), etc. Plus most of those homes would also have sort of burglar bars/metal grates on the windows (most of the ones we saw). 

 

So, yes. Everyone, not just foreigners. 

 

Now, the crime we dealt with was mostly theft -- ATM robberies were common, carjacking was somewhat common, theft of purse, bag, watch, pickpocket, etc, was common. A friend of a friend had all her jewelry stolen from her (and her purse) while exiting the ATM once. Another friend of a friend (different friends) (and this was a national, not a foreigner), had her car stolen from her driveway when she was returning home or getting ready to leave (ie, carjacked from her driveway). Most of the crime we were aware of and dealt with/took caution of, was not violent at all though. 

 

Now, in the favelas (the poor areas, usually controlled by drug kings), there could be more violent crime. We didn't really go into those areas, at all. (and some of them aren't so violent but some are). 

 

Like I said, mostly we never felt unsafe, just cautiously aware of what could happen. 

 

Guatemala was like this when we lived there. Everyone had bars on their windows, not just the well-to-do. Carjackings at gun point happened frequently, one family we knew had three cars stolen this way within 18 months. Pick pockets were everywhere. Someone broke into our car and stole the stereo

system.

 

Life went on anyway.