Youth Group woes. Would you say something?

[8circles]

I understand that this is how most people naturally self-segregate, not just kids.  I know I've done it & will continue to do it.  But I think it'w wrong that anybody allows it & just says "oh well, that's just how people are.  they don't mean anything by it."  I'm not saying anyone here has said that - I"ve read the thread and have been thinking a lot about it but I don't remember any posts in that vein, I just get that impression from some people IRL and it really irks me.

 

It should be one of the number one things that youth leaders look for and try to change.  It should be one of the number one things that parents look for (in their kids social groups) and try to change.  It should never just be, because it just is that way & too bad for people on the outside.

 

It reminds me of that FB story about the teacher who asked her kids to pick people they wanted to sit by &... something else.  Instead of only using it for a seating chart, she used it to identify the kids who were on the outside, who were invisible.  This was in elementary, but I think the idea is important at older ages, too.  Just maybe using a different method.

 

Here's the story: http://momastery.com/blog/2014/01/30/share-schools/ 

[Vida Winter]

We had a similar experience - not youth group but a class dd took when she was a senior in high school. She was the only homeschool student in the class. At the end of the term they went on a trip to Seattle and all the girls completely ignored her - would not say a word to her. The guys on the trip would only talk to her if the girls weren't around. Pathetic. Some of the chaperones (moms of the other girls) were so embarrassed they apologized to dd. I have no idea what to tell you except that the situation resolves itself once they get to college. :grouphug:

[momee]

As one of the "insiders" with teens in the youth group, I'd just like to give what may possibly be a different perspective.  

 

My kids have been told - make friends with the loners.  Watch out for the girls who may need a friend.  Try not to hang with your group so much and include everyone.

 

Well, it's a hard request I make of them.  This is very difficult for me - even as an adult.  I have to be careful how I refer to the "old days" for fear I might leave someone out.  I have to keep an eye on getting too chummy with my bff (lol) who just happens to be the pastor's wife when we're at church together.  We're concerned (proven by experience) if we're together too much, other women will feel left out or...whatever...they might presume they aren't included when really we're just catching up and enjoying each other.  I've come to realize some women are lonely and jealous of our having a friendship.  So as a result and out of humble effort to serve - we don't hang much at church.

 

It's tough to constantly be welcoming new folks in, and be on the lookout for who might have feelings hurt by what so I have to watch what I say/how I act/whom I greet/seek out.  And some women, by golly, are gonna have feelings hurt no matter what.

 

So I'm just saying here, honestly and hopefully it's helpful otherwise I would never type it, that maybe your daughters need to be a friend to have a friend.  It may be tough to press through whatever the wall is...and I'm not saying there isn't a wall, but coming through the other side is an excellent lesson in perseverance, as well as an opportunity to extend unmerited grace toward others.

 

If it were my girls in that position, I'd encourage them to watch for 1, 2 or 3 girls who might be open to a new friendship.

(that reminds me of another issue...I seriously don't have mental capacity or time for one more friendship right now - maybe they don't either).  

 

And if it doesn't work out right now, as much as it depends on them - her learning to genuinely be at peace with everyone (Rom 12:18) is a valuable lesson as well.  Possibly consider walking her through holding her head high and guarding her thoughts so that bitterness or judgement not take root (Heb 12:15).

 

All that to say, it might not be due to school difference, or due to something personal. Maybe the kids your daughter is trying to befriend are just...distracted by other issues.

 

I'd humbly suggest it's a great opportunity to teach her about grace (unmerited favor) and giving others the benefit of the doubt...also...and don't take this the wrong way...

church is a place to serve.  Not be served.  (Mk 10:45)

Is she actively serving?  This is a huge way I encourage women to get involved and make friends.

 

hope this was helpful, not meant in any way to be snarky or judgemental

I put bible references in there because it's imperative she is empowered spiritually to  guard against these things, acting in ways that contradict the gospel is harmful...as you can see in the above threads.  I'd be first and foremost teaching my girls this isn't the way we want to represent Christ's body - and to be an example even though they're young...1 Tim 4:12

[momee]

Re-reading that it could sound preachy - totally not my intention.  I'm trying - abeit poorly - to help this be a teaching lesson for them and an opportunity to grow spiritually.  Not say I've been there and have it all figured out.  I get women often who feel intimidated and insecure around other women who come to me and say how they feel left out, unimportant, or just plain lonely.

 

Just trying to share some of that experience here...

[fairfarmhand]

Several people have mentioned this so I'll give specifics on what happens. These are not isolated incidents. My oldest has been attempting to connect for 2 and a half years.

 

DD approaches two or three girls who are chatting. After waiting for an opening in the conversation, she says:

 

DD : "Hi, Anne. How are you?"

 

Anne: "Oh. Fine. " smiles and looks away.

 

DD: "How has your week been?"

 

Anne: "umm...Good. "

 

Long awkward pause.

 

Anne turns from dd and brings up a topic related to school or a ball game that my dd has no experience with.  After a minute or two, of standing there feeling foolish and unwanted, my dd melts away into the background. Sometimes she'll approach two or three groups of kids with the same sort of response. And those are the days when someone will actually make eye contact and actually seem like they see her.

 

These are not total strangers to my dd. She grew up with these kids. They've been to my home. They've gone on trips together. I know their parents and their siblings. They've spent the night here. It's not like there is NO common ground.

 

It's hard to be a friend when people are already satisfied with their own friends and totally uninterested in opening the circle up for an outsider . My dd is not "over sensitive" or looking out for ways to feel hurt. These are not incidences that only happen occasionally.

 

As far as what my dd wants to gain...having someone to sit with at church would actually be nice. Bonus points if someone cares whether or not you are there.

 

We're trying something else. We're inviting a couple of our homeschooled friends to attend. We'll see how it goes.

[momee]

fairfarmhand 

I should have said first off...

I'm sorry she's going through this.  It must be disheartening.  I'll pray she find just one happy receptive face and that her heart is protected until she feels at ease in the group.

[momee]

"These are not total strangers to my dd. She grew up with these kids. They've been to my home. They've gone on trips together. I know their parents and their siblings. They've spent the night here. It's not like there is NO common ground."

 

 

And if it helps you (probably won't help her) but it's possibly just teenage drama too.

 

My dh watches my girls and their girlfriends and shakes his head in unbelief.  He says guys wouldn't notice half the stuff their worlds crumble over some days., lol

[momee]

I just read that momastery article. I'm sorry but this

"TEACH ON, WARRIORS. You are the first responders, the front line, the disconnection detectives, and the best and ONLY hope we’ve got for a better world. What you do in those classrooms when no one  is watching-  it’s our best hope."

 

Is one of the reasons why we homeshool.  Teachers aren't the only citizens responsible for kids...their parents, their peers, etc. are.

 

I don't think they're are only hope we've got.  Sorry.  Disagree...I applaud the teacher and the author for the sentiment and the idea is great...but our only hope?

Resume thread, sorry for hijack.

[8circles]

I just read that momastery article. I'm sorry but this

"TEACH ON, WARRIORS. You are the first responders, the front line, the disconnection detectives, and the best and ONLY hope we’ve got for a better world. What you do in those classrooms when no one  is watching-  it’s our best hope."

 

Is one of the reasons why we homeshool.  Teachers aren't the only citizens responsible for kids...their parents, their peers, etc. are.

 

I don't think they're are only hope we've got.  Sorry.  Disagree...I applaud the teacher and the author for the sentiment and the idea is great...but our only hope?

Resume thread, sorry for hijack.

 

It's interesting that you focus on this line out of the entire article.  Believe it or not, there are many people who still have no exposure whatsoever to homeschooling & aside from homeschooling, teachers - of all kinds - really are the people you would expect to be noticing these problems.  Taken out of context, I could see it being an issue.  Within the context of this article, I call nitpicking.

 

The whole reason that I posted it was to point out that this is the responsibility of more than just classroom teachers.  

[8circles]

Several people have mentioned this so I'll give specifics on what happens. These are not isolated incidents. My oldest has been attempting to connect for 2 and a half years.

 

DD approaches two or three girls who are chatting. After waiting for an opening in the conversation, she says:

 

DD : "Hi, Anne. How are you?"

 

Anne: "Oh. Fine. " smiles and looks away.

 

DD: "How has your week been?"

 

Anne: "umm...Good. "

 

Long awkward pause.

 

Anne turns from dd and brings up a topic related to school or a ball game that my dd has no experience with.  After a minute or two, of standing there feeling foolish and unwanted, my dd melts away into the background. Sometimes she'll approach two or three groups of kids with the same sort of response. And those are the days when someone will actually make eye contact and actually seem like they see her.

 

These are not total strangers to my dd. She grew up with these kids. They've been to my home. They've gone on trips together. I know their parents and their siblings. They've spent the night here. It's not like there is NO common ground.

 

It's hard to be a friend when people are already satisfied with their own friends and totally uninterested in opening the circle up for an outsider . My dd is not "over sensitive" or looking out for ways to feel hurt. These are not incidences that only happen occasionally.

 

As far as what my dd wants to gain...having someone to sit with at church would actually be nice. Bonus points if someone cares whether or not you are there.

 

We're trying something else. We're inviting a couple of our homeschooled friends to attend. We'll see how it goes.

FFH, I so feel for your daughter.  & I think the "be a friend to get a friend" is a low-blow, especially given what you've shared about the situation.

 

I'd say more but it's my anniversary and dinner is waiting.

[Jean in Newcastle]

40 years ago I had this very same experience.  Only in my case, the kids were nice to me at church where they had a "Christian" reputation to uphold.  But when we got to school where I was the weird "foreign" kid (I'm not but I grew up overseas and was only the states for that year so I was labeled that way), then they would not even say "hi" to me.  

 

I would let her go to the women's Bible study.  

[Southern Ivy]

I had the same experience in my high school youth group. I wasn't one of the "goody two shoes"; I also wasn't one of the "bad kids"; so in our teeny, tiny youth group, I was all alone.
I also had a very negative encounter with my youth pastor on a mission trip (him biting my head off for something I didn't do, screaming in my face, etc.).
By the time I got back, I was DONE with youth group and told my mom I wasn't going back. I ended up attending one of the adult Bible studies and it was the best choice for me.
If bringing other homeschooling friends to church doesn't help, definitely let her attend an adult class. 

[RioSamba]

Several people have mentioned this so I'll give specifics on what happens. These are not isolated incidents. My oldest has been attempting to connect for 2 and a half years.

 

DD approaches two or three girls who are chatting. After waiting for an opening in the conversation, she says:

 

DD : "Hi, Anne. How are you?"

 

Anne: "Oh. Fine. " smiles and looks away.

 

DD: "How has your week been?"

 

Anne: "umm...Good. "

 

Long awkward pause.

 

Anne turns from dd and brings up a topic related to school or a ball game that my dd has no experience with. After a minute or two, of standing there feeling foolish and unwanted, my dd melts away into the background. Sometimes she'll approach two or three groups of kids with the same sort of response. And those are the days when someone will actually make eye contact and actually seem like they see her.

 

These are not total strangers to my dd. She grew up with these kids. They've been to my home. They've gone on trips together. I know their parents and their siblings. They've spent the night here. It's not like there is NO common ground.

 

It's hard to be a friend when people are already satisfied with their own friends and totally uninterested in opening the circle up for an outsider . My dd is not "over sensitive" or looking out for ways to feel hurt. These are not incidences that only happen occasionally.

 

As far as what my dd wants to gain...having someone to sit with at church would actually be nice. Bonus points if someone cares whether or not you are there.

 

We're trying something else. We're inviting a couple of our homeschooled friends to attend. We'll see how it goes.

That's worse than I had imagined. I think inviting some homeschooled friends is a great idea.

[katilac]

Several people have mentioned this so I'll give specifics on what happens. These are not isolated incidents. My oldest has been attempting to connect for 2 and a half years.

 

DD approaches two or three girls who are chatting. After waiting for an opening in the conversation, she says:

 

DD : "Hi, Anne. How are you?"

 

Anne: "Oh. Fine. " smiles and looks away.

 

DD: "How has your week been?"

 

Anne: "umm...Good. "

 

Long awkward pause.

 

Anne turns from dd and brings up a topic related to school or a ball game that my dd has no experience with.  After a minute or two, of standing there feeling foolish and unwanted, my dd melts away into the background. Sometimes she'll approach two or three groups of kids with the same sort of response. And those are the days when someone will actually make eye contact and actually seem like they see her.

 

These are not total strangers to my dd. She grew up with these kids. They've been to my home. They've gone on trips together. I know their parents and their siblings. They've spent the night here. It's not like there is NO common ground.

 

It's hard to be a friend when people are already satisfied with their own friends and totally uninterested in opening the circle up for an outsider . My dd is not "over sensitive" or looking out for ways to feel hurt. These are not incidences that only happen occasionally.

 

As far as what my dd wants to gain...having someone to sit with at church would actually be nice. Bonus points if someone cares whether or not you are there.

 

We're trying something else. We're inviting a couple of our homeschooled friends to attend. We'll see how it goes.

 

The intent behind this could go either way, I think. It could be a very thoughtless or even intentional effort to move on to a subject Anne is more interested in, or it could be just a conversational stall. 

 

What is their behavior at other times? If they still visit dd when invited and are friendly overall, I would tend to think this is teen awkwardness and a conversational stall. If they have been steadily turning down invitations, or don't wave to her in the mall and such, then yeah, it's more likely they are trying to shut her down. 

 

"How was your week?" is generally going to get a super-short response from a teen (and most people, really); it kind of sets you up for a response of "good" or "okay" that just hangs there. 

 

Conversations are forever moving into areas that my teens have no knowledge of or interest in, and I tell them to assume the best unless really proven otherwise. It's no one's fault that the group has many interests and experiences they don't share, it's just the way it is. It's true that people are often thoughtless, of course, but you're going to cry a river if you burst into tears every time it happens. 

 

I tell them to be patient and evaluate it. Are they being rude on purpose? Intentionally trying to exclude you or others? Then walk away with dignity and quit banging your head against that particular wall.  

 

Are they more thoughtless and lacking social finesse? Do they just spend a lot of time talking about stuff you have no experience or interest in? Then you need to decide if it's worth it to you to stay in the group anyway. It's not hard to pick up on the hot topics of the moment, so if you want to actively be in the conversation, you are going to have to go to that game or read that book or watch that show (or at least look them up on the internet), or become very adept at asking questions: Who's your favorite character? What was the best part? Can I hear about your touchdown again? 

 

It's fine if you don't want to do that (this is still me talking to my dds), but if you don't, you need to learn to be content with listening and waiting for the active portion of the activity. I also remind them of times they have been the less-interested party in a friendship or potential friendship.  

 

I myself would not bring it up to the youth leader, because it's so hard to suss out intent when there is no blatant rudeness or exclusion, and so hard to regulate social interaction. We sponsor a fair number of teen activities, and I've definitely had kids/parents complain of exclusion when none was intended (or apparent at all to our eyes).

 

I do have my 'usual crew' of kids that I can count on to welcome newbies - they are glad to do it, but feel like their job is done once the new kids have been introduced, shown around, and specifically invited to join in conversations or activities the first couple of times. I don't have much knowledge of church youth groups, so I don't know how the expectations might vary for that in particular. 

 

Particularly in this case, where it sounds like your dd has plenty of friends otherwise, I'd be inclined to recommend that she use youth group as a worthwhile activity and ignore the social aspects. If youth group is not a worthwhile activity without the social aspects, time to drop it if she doesn't enjoy it. 

[katilac]

Elaborating on a particular thought in my above post: I would definitely advise her to come up with some openers that invite more conversation than "How was your week?" or "How are you doing?" 

 

Taking any known interests into account, variations on these tend to work well: 

 

Have you seen the new Hunger Games trailer? 

 

Do you know if Fall Fest is going to be at the campground again this year? 

 

I saw on Facebook that you visited State University last weekend; how did you like it? 

 

Your favorite actor was on Jimmy Fallon last night - did you see him? 

 

Look, I brought cookies! 

 

 

 

 

 

[momee]

"It's interesting that you focus on this line out of the entire article.  Believe it or not, there are many people who still have no exposure whatsoever to homeschooling & aside from homeschooling, teachers - of all kinds - really are the people you would expect to be noticing these problems.  Taken out of context, I could see it being an issue.  Within the context of this article, I call nitpicking.

 

The whole reason that I posted it was to point out that this is the responsibility of more than just classroom teachers. "

 

Point taken, please forgive the transgression.

It just hit me the wrong way - I can see your reason for sharing it.

[fairfarmhand]

The intent behind this could go either way, I think. It could be a very thoughtless or even intentional effort to move on to a subject Anne is more interested in, or it could be just a conversational stall. 

 

What is their behavior at other times? If they still visit dd when invited and are friendly overall, I would tend to think this is teen awkwardness and a conversational stall. If they have been steadily turning down invitations, or don't wave to her in the mall and such, then yeah, it's more likely they are trying to shut her down. 

 

Honestly, I think it IS teen awkwardness and total oblivion. Because I know these kids. They;re not mean kids. Thoughtless? Possibly. And that's pretty common for kids.

 

"How was your week?" is generally going to get a super-short response from a teen (and most people, really); it kind of sets you up for a response of "good" or "okay" that just hangs there. 

 

Conversations are forever moving into areas that my teens have no knowledge of or interest in, and I tell them to assume the best unless really proven otherwise. It's no one's fault that the group has many interests and experiences they don't share, it's just the way it is. It's true that people are often thoughtless, of course, but you're going to cry a river if you burst into tears every time it happens. 

 

I tell them to be patient and evaluate it. Are they being rude on purpose? Intentionally trying to exclude you or others? Then walk away with dignity and quit banging your head against that particular wall.  

 

Are they more thoughtless and lacking social finesse? Do they just spend a lot of time talking about stuff you have no experience or interest in? Then you need to decide if it's worth it to you to stay in the group anyway. It's not hard to pick up on the hot topics of the moment, so if you want to actively be in the conversation, you are going to have to go to that game or read that book or watch that show (or at least look them up on the internet), or become very adept at asking questions: Who's your favorite character? What was the best part? Can I hear about your touchdown again? 

 

It's fine if you don't want to do that (this is still me talking to my dds), but if you don't, you need to learn to be content with listening and waiting for the active portion of the activity. I also remind them of times they have been the less-interested party in a friendship or potential friendship.  

 

This is very good.

 

I myself would not bring it up to the youth leader, because it's so hard to suss out intent when there is no blatant rudeness or exclusion, and so hard to regulate social interaction. We sponsor a fair number of teen activities, and I've definitely had kids/parents complain of exclusion when none was intended (or apparent at all to our eyes).

 

Thank you. I am still on the fence about what I will do as far as leadership goes. I've also been thinking about my OWN behavior. I do try to be friendly and reach out, but it wouldn't hurt me to sit with a different group every now and then at Bible study.

 

I do have my 'usual crew' of kids that I can count on to welcome newbies - they are glad to do it, but feel like their job is done once the new kids have been introduced, shown around, and specifically invited to join in conversations or activities the first couple of times. I don't have much knowledge of church youth groups, so I don't know how the expectations might vary for that in particular. 

 

Particularly in this case, where it sounds like your dd has plenty of friends otherwise, I'd be inclined to recommend that she use youth group as a worthwhile activity and ignore the social aspects. If youth group is not a worthwhile activity without the social aspects, time to drop it if she doesn't enjoy it. 

This is VERY helpful. Thank you. You really spoke as to what I want to communicate to my dd.

 

I think I am going to encourage her to try to bring friends and if the "not being included" stuff is so miserable to her (as an extrovert it is extra painful for her) then she may want to attend a different Bible study.