MistiB Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Hello! So this is my first post, but I've been reading through the WTM forum for years now. Hoping I can get some advice :) My DD is currently working through CLE math level 4. She was home for K-2nd and completed up through Saxon 3. She then went to PS for 3rd and 4th. So now she is technically in 5th grade; but when I pulled her out of PS she tested into CLE level 4 :-/ We're trying to work through it quickly and move onto level 5. I like CLE math and she does well with it. But she is constantly asking for the "why" behind everything. She is a VERY precocious and curious child when it comes to most things. So I guess my question is: what options are there for supplements that will answer these questions for her? What do you love and/or use? I know we could just keep plugging along, but she really enjoys math and if she's craving a deeper understanding then I want to give that to her. Thanks in advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 If she wants to know the reasons for things, I'd switch to a program that teaches them as a matter of course. Singapore is an example of such a program. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiara.I Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 It does sound like a more conceptual program might be a better fit for her. In the short term, you can always go and look up the answers for her online. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeAgain Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Khan Academy? Their lessons usually explain the why behind it all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateingr Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Yes, Singapore Math or Math Mammoth might be better conceptual options for her if she loves to know the "why" behind her math. (I wrote a review of Singapore and a review of Math Mammoth in the spring if you'd like more info about either.) You might also consider Beast Academy. In the mean time, you might want to get a resource that helps you explain the concepts behind the procedures. One good option is Van de Walle's Elementary and Middle School Mathematics: Teaching Developmentally. Don't buy the current edition, which costs $160! Instead, you can get an older edition for just a dollar or two, like the one I linked. It's geared towards college students studying to be teachers, so the first few chapters aren't applicable to homeschoolers, but the chapters that explain the concepts are a gold mine. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathwonk Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I don't know Van de Walle's book but I agree with the idea to use a book for teacher training. The one I know and have used is by my colleague Sybilla Beckmann. I once read it was very highly rated by some professional organizations. Here also is a used copy at a cheap price. I know only the book, not the activities manual. This 2nd edition is only $4, while the 4th edition would cost $142. In my life long teaching experience, earlier editions are almost always actually better. The two books recommended may have slightly different perspectives, since Van de Walle had a PhD in mathematics education and Beckmann has hers in pure mathematics, specializing in arithmetic algebraic geometry. At a certain point in her career she switched from research in algebraic geometry to research in elementary education, maybe about the time her own children began to learn math. The two books may complement each other. http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=sybilla+beckmann&sts=t 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teachingmomster Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 As a previous 4th grade teacher, I LOVE that she is asking why! I agree that Math Mammoth and Singapore math are great options. We use Khan Academy and BrainPop videos as well, as my son is very visual. Hope this helps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teachingmomster Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 As a previous 4th and 5th grade teacher, I LOVE that she is asking why!! I agree with the suggestions of Math Mammoth and Singapore math. We also use Khan Academy and BrainPop videos, as my son is a visual learner. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistiB Posted September 22, 2015 Author Share Posted September 22, 2015 Thank you all for the suggestions! I looked at MM and Singapore early on but maybe I need to revisit those. I opted for CLE because of its spiral approach. I was concerned about her retention given that she basically remembered little to nothing that she learned the last two years at PS. But I suppose there's probably other factors that contributed to that. Especially if she's a child that needs to know the why behind it before it clicks with her. The Van de Walle and Beckmann books sound wonderful! I will definitely be checking those out regardless of what curriculum we are using. They sound like fantastic resources! Thank you all again! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathwonk Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I had fun teaching ideas like "regrouping" for addition, from Beckmann. I came up with other ways to illustrate it like using English money denominations to change a large number of pence into shillings and pounds and so on. Also using cartons and cases of different capacities to pack a large number of empty pop bottles. I had never learned elementary arithmetic myself sytematically as a kid and this was quite helpful to me as well. Her book has a lot of challenging problems for the child to think through, such as going to a party, shaking everyone's hand once and asking how many hand shakes that takes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AEC Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Thank you all for the suggestions! I looked at MM and Singapore early on but maybe I need to revisit those. I opted for CLE because of its spiral approach. I was concerned about her retention Having a good 'conceptual' math course will help with the 'why' - it is not a substitute, IME, for also memorizing math facts...if that's what you mean by retention. Knowing why will help her remember that you divide fractions by taking the inverse of the second and then multiplying, for example, and it may give her a good way of figuring out 7 x 5 in her head when she occasionally forgets - but the math facts you just have to memorize because there is only so much 'figuring out' the brain can actively do. You'll have to do both. At least for my kids, Singapore was great for teaching concepts and understanding why. It was not sufficient for memorizing facts - we had to do that via facts sheets, flash cards, games, etc. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistiB Posted September 23, 2015 Author Share Posted September 23, 2015 Thank you! I guess I should've been more clear with what I meant by "retention". Her retention of basic math facts (addition/subtraction, multiplication/division) is solid. She learned those by the end of 2nd grade when we were homeschooling and she hasn't forgotten them. But, for example, how do you find the area of a rectangle? How do you covert a fraction to a decimal? It's stuff like that. She just doesn't remember how to do those things. And I know it was covered in PS because I helped her with her homework every night. She did fine with it at the time. But here we are, 4 months later, and it's like she has never seen it before. I was thinking a spiral program would help with that, but now I'm thinking maybe a conceptual approach may be more beneficial. I just don't know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusyMom5 Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 What about some manipulatives? For area, I would use either graph paper or small square cubes to illustrate- same w/ volume of cubes. For fractions, I have a set of the fraction tiles, and a set of fraction towers, and a set of MUS fraction overlays. Being able to 'see' the concepts should help them stick. The fraction tower set I have has decimals, fractions and percents, so we use those to convert. HTH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
go_go_gadget Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Thank you! I guess I should've been more clear with what I meant by "retention". Her retention of basic math facts (addition/subtraction, multiplication/division) is solid. She learned those by the end of 2nd grade when we were homeschooling and she hasn't forgotten them. But, for example, how do you find the area of a rectangle? How do you covert a fraction to a decimal? It's stuff like that. She just doesn't remember how to do those things. And I know it was covered in PS because I helped her with her homework every night. She did fine with it at the time. But here we are, 4 months later, and it's like she has never seen it before. I was thinking a spiral program would help with that, but now I'm thinking maybe a conceptual approach may be more beneficial. I just don't know... The examples you gave are exactly the kind of thing that a conceptual approach would address, and I'd highly recommend Beast Academy. Regarding the bolded: conceptual and spiral aren't mutually exclusive. Miquon is an example of a program that's both conceptual and spiral, though most conceptual programs tend to be set up as mastery programs. But lots of people who use BA turn it into a spiral program by saving the starred challenge problems to use as review while proceeding through the rest of the book. FWIW, I was exactly like your daughter, and am now a grad student in math. Your daughter's lucky to have a parent who discern what's really going on for her; I had to figure it out myself as an adult taking algebra. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targhee Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 One of my children did homeschool in K (we used rightstart and Singapore) and scored 98 percentile for 2nd grade math that year. Three years of public school was next. When I pulled her out she was behind by a year and hated math and thought she was no good at it. We started Singapore again, a year behind, and did two years in 9 months time. She remembered she loved math, and was good at it, and currently still loves math and is thriving in her AOPS online classes. The problem wasn't that she needed review/drill or spiral approach. The problem was the math in public school didn't stick because she didn't know why you did everything in those algorithms. Once she understand the big picture why, the how made sense and had meaning. That's been our experience at least. I recommend Singapore, or Beast Academy. Best Wishes! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathwonk Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 To me, area of a rectangle is exactly the same as understanding multiplication, since in at least one conceptual approach to multiplication you multiply say 3 times 4 by drawing a rectangle with 4 rows of 3 blocks in each row and show that the area is the same as the product 3x4. So this is a case where conceptualizing one process spills over and enhances and teaches another one. I.e. this is a wonderful example of the benefits of asking why. In this case one relevant "why ?" question relates to commutativity of multiplication, or why 3x4 = 4x3. In the rectangle appropach one observes that the area of the rectangle, or the total number of blocks making it up, can be counted by rows or by columns, and the result is the same. i.e. 4 rows of 3 blocks each equals 3 columns of 4 blocks each. I love this geometric stuff, it makes it so visual. By the way many of you know Euclid treated algebra this way, illustrating (a+b)^2 = a^2 + 2ab + b^2 by showing a square with sides of length a+b and how this decompoises the big square into teo smaller squares, one with side a, and one with side b, and there are 2 axb rectangles left over. I did not learn that until I was a senior in college, from a class in psychology of learning given by Jerome Bruner. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistiB Posted September 23, 2015 Author Share Posted September 23, 2015 One of my children did homeschool in K (we used rightstart and Singapore) and scored 98 percentile for 2nd grade math that year. Three years of public school was next. When I pulled her out she was behind by a year and hated math and thought she was no good at it. We started Singapore again, a year behind, and did two years in 9 months time. She remembered she loved math, and was good at it, and currently still loves math and is thriving in her AOPS online classes. The problem wasn't that she needed review/drill or spiral approach. The problem was the math in public school didn't stick because she didn't know why you did everything in those algorithms. Once she understand the big picture why, the how made sense and had meaning. That's been our experience at least. I recommend Singapore, or Beast Academy. Best Wishes!I feel like you just described my daughter exactly! She scored in the 99th percentile on all of her testing after homeschooling for the first 3 years and she loved math. After 2 years in PS she hates it, thinks she's "bad at it", and is behind. I am frustrated, to say the least. Not with her, of course, but with the damage that has been done these last 2 years. Thanks to you and go_go_gadget for sharing your stories. They have really given me hope! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistiB Posted September 23, 2015 Author Share Posted September 23, 2015 Thank you all for your wonderful suggestions and for taking the time to help us! I sincerely appreciate it so much! I'm now looking at Math Mammoth, Beast Academy, and Singapore. They all look fantastic. Now I'm going to have to spend all my free time searching these boards and reading posts about each of them 😃 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trulycrabby Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 Youtube has lots of great math tutorials. Just type in the search term, for example, "area of a triangle." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 I'd stick with CLE and pick up the Kitchen Table Maths books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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