MarigoldHS Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 I need advice for my 4th grader. We started homeschooling him in second grade. I fumbled through different writing curriculum that year and nothing seemed to click with either one of us. Then, in third grade we started IEW SWI-A. At first, it was a miracle because my son was enjoying the lessons and actually looked forward to writing. But now that he is in 4th grade, I've noticed that his style is still extremely awkward (run on sentences, verbose, etc.) I was hoping I would start to see some improvements in these areas by now, but sadly, no. So I've started to wonder if this is because he's never had a solid foundation in copywork and dictation. I regret not pushing these skills harder when he was in second grade and I'm wondering if I should just stop with IEW this year and really push the copywork/dictation/narration work a la WWE. Or if that would be a mistake because he has already started to build some of the IEW skills (key word outlines, dress-ups, etc.) I hate to jump around and switch back and forth but the idea of trying to do both WWE and IEW at the same time is overwhelming. What do you think? stop IEW for a school year? stop for a semester? or keep going with IEW? If I stop IEW, will last year have just been a waste because when we go back to IEW, he will have to basically start all over with those skills? Maybe just continue with IEW but add in copywork??? I don't know. Thanks in advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serendipitous journey Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Well, have you rung IEW? They are very helpful. I think some of the things you are concerned about could be addressed by using the TWSS teacher DVDs, but that is of course spendy; the people at IEW may have good specific advice. Is the child using a grammar program, too? Things like run-on sentences are often addressed in the grammar programs. If not, you could try FLL3 and/or FLL4 perhaps. No program produces a fluent 4th-grade writer (though some 4th-grade writers are fluent!). There is always something that is focused on and something delayed. We have gone on the more-WWE end of things, with some Classical Writing, and so have none of the nice paragraphs and research-type papers that we'd have with IEW. Our sentences are strong, though. So I think at the young end it is a bit of a trade-off. Finally, your time with IEW will not have been wasted! We did use IEW for a season and set it aside, and I still see the fruits. Outlining is completely not-intimidating; there is skill with oral retelling from outlines; &c. If you keep working with the child, regularly, in a good writing program, the child will have grown in skills by the end of the year or semester. You may focus differently next term/year, and this is to be considered flexible teaching -- not failed teaching! ;) ETA: you may find Susan Wise Bauer's elementary writing audio seminar to be a good investment (and it's less than $5). While the first time I listened I tended to get caught up on the bits I don't agree with, with repeated runs through I've gotten a lot of good advice on teaching writing, on assessing the child's level and on helping him progress. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarigoldHS Posted September 21, 2015 Author Share Posted September 21, 2015 Thank you, Serendipitous. Your response is very encouraging. I haven't called the folks at IEW yet. That's a really great idea. I have watched the TWSS DVDs and my son does have a separate grammar curriculum, which he does very well with (it just doesn't seem to translate to his writing yet). I'm now considering something like CAP W&R. Seems like I would be able to hit on several skills with that curriculum. I also just looked at Imitation in Writing (similar to IEW but I think it would be easier to combine with WWE). Anyone else? thoughts about CAP W&R as a solution? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErinE Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 If IEW is working for your son, I'd stick with it. Are you correcting his papers? I think correcting run-on sentences or punctuation is part of the editing process. My child and I would sit down and read the composition aloud. I'd point out good things, but also ask questions like: * Does this sentence seem long to you? Can we pick better words that express the thought without using a bunch of words? * What are you trying to say here? This sentence seems clumsy. * Remember to capitalize the first letter in the sentence. * It sounds like this sentence has two complete thoughts. We need to break it up or add a conjunction or semi-colon. The child then re-writes the composition (sometimes over a few days depending on length) or re-types it. In fourth grade, children are still juggling mechanics and fluency with expressing their thoughts. I've read high school papers that still have require serious editing. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tm919 Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Something that is pointed out in TWSS really helped me: He emphasizes that he is NOT saying the dress-ups make writing better. In fact, it could make it worse, but it's like (my take on it) drilling math facts, so that when those dress-ups are appropriate, children can do them easily and correctly. I think the problem is you have to suffer through a long time period of things that would have been objectively better if the dress-ups had never happened (-ly words, I'm looking at you). I tell my daughter that in her "Andrew" lessons she needs to use the dress-ups for practice, but when she is writing for other things they are just some more tools in her toolbox that she practiced using. That way at least some of her writing isn't burdened by dress-ups. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Twain Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 I agree with the comments so far, especially about editing. I sit down with my child and help him fix every sentence that is not correct. I talk about why each one is not correct if it is a run-on and so forth. Then I have him rewrite the neat copy. I use IEW but I alternate the assignments with another writing program. You could alternate IEW with WWE or other dictation and copy work. Another option is to alternate IEW assignments with similar types of assignments without using the checklist. That gives you a chance to see what your child can write naturally. It can take some time (years) to see the real fruit of IEW. I wouldn't panic just yet. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyGF Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Why not have him copy a sentence or two daily and do a studied dictation once a week? Make sure it is at a different time than IEW, but they aren't mutually exclusive. And agreed about the editing. Emily Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serendipitous journey Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Well, I myself did not like the writing I saw with IEW and set it aside. So I am sympathetic. But if your child likes the program I'd hesitate to switch it out without trying to work on the sentence structure first by following the advice for editing &c above. And any program will generate some odd sentences, if they are playing around with writing sentences. It is normal for the grammar not to translate easily to their independent writing. In the editing stage, you can explicitly relate the work to the grammar/spelling to help them begin making those connections; or perhaps when you go over the keyword outlines, if you see that the amount of information in one line is likely to generate over-long sentences you can encourage the child to slim the outline down or divide the entry into two lines. IEW would probably have great ideas for this -- if you don't like calling, try email! :) If you can address the run-on sentences &c in the editing stage you can keep moving forward while you consider what you want in a writing program. I really tend to think that if you are wishing you had nailed the copywork & dictation then 4th grade is the time to do that. WWE is terrific for this; it is what we did in 4th grade and the foundations are strong. I will say that I was generous about repeating passages during dictation time ;) and A did not like WWE at all. So it was character building + writing all in one! I haven't used CAP's program, but am sure if you start a thread about IEW vs. CAP folks would have perspectives to offer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cintinative Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 If IEW is working for your son, I'd stick with it. Are you correcting his papers? I think correcting run-on sentences or punctuation is part of the editing process. My child and I would sit down and read the composition aloud. I'd point out good things, but also ask questions like: * Does this sentence seem long to you? Can we pick better words that express the thought without using a bunch of words? * What are you trying to say here? This sentence seems clumsy. * Remember to capitalize the first letter in the sentence. * It sounds like this sentence has two complete thoughts. We need to break it up or add a conjunction or semi-colon. The child then re-writes the composition (sometimes over a few days depending on length) or re-types it. In fourth grade, children are still juggling mechanics and fluency with expressing their thoughts. I've read high school papers that still have require serious editing. THIS. They say repeatedly in the literature that you cannot give too much help. Be his editor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarigoldHS Posted September 25, 2015 Author Share Posted September 25, 2015 Wonderful advice. Thank you all so much! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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