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Thoughts on high IQs


lewelma
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There is a thread of this name on the General Board that I wish I could add to, but I can't for so many reasons.  In my personal experience, high IQ has only been a positive.  I don't even know what I want to say here, but just that the other thread left me quite sad.

 

Ruth in NZ

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The idea that some high IQ people don't need/want/like to hang out with other high IQ people is so foreign to my personal experience that it made me sad. But there is so much diversity in high IQ people that I shouldn't project my experience onto others. But I have been thinking about that thread a lot. Thanks for mentioning it Lewelma.

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That is your personal frame of reference, so it is what you see. But that doesn't negate other people's experiences.

 

High IQ individuals aren't immune from "life" and complicated issues. Our Aspie has a high IQ (even without it being able to be completely accurate bc he has subscores that are multiple stanines apart (like 2nd percentile to 99th percentile spreads.). Having a high IQ has not meant that he isn't OCD or ADD. It hasn't prevented him from suffering from high anxiety. It hasn't helped his complete lack of executive functioning skills. Honestly, the only thing I think his high IQ has done is make him more aware of his deficits which only increases his depression.

 

Real story from yesterday......I had to drop him off for work 3 hrs early. It is an hour round trip for me to take him to work. We had an appointment out that way yesterday morning, so I was not going to make the trip a second time bc it would have destroyed our school day. He is almost 24. He walks several miles every day for exercise. Yesterday I tried to drop him off at the library which is only 1/2 a mile from his job. He refused for 30 mins to get out of the car. Why? Bc it was not his normal routine. It had nothing to do with walking 1/2 a mile. It had nothing to do with the library (he likes the library and could normally sit in there for hours.) It all boiled down to the fact that he is used to being dropped off in front of Goodwill's door and that is where he wanted me to drop him off. I wanted him to break his routine by going to the library and then to a restaurant for lunch before walking to work. His reaction was an explosive temper tantrum. (It is really sad when a 5 yr old is trying to explain how to cope to an adult sibling who is screaming, punching seats, and crying.) I didn't back down. This is going to happen again in the future and he needs to see that he can be flexible about the order he does things and that his normal routine is not the only possible one.

 

Later in the afternoon he called me and told me thank you bc he did enjoy it more than sitting outside of work for 3 hrs waiting to clock in.

 

IQ is just one tiny aspect of a person's make-up. Life is complicated.

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I'm sorry you are sad!  I haven't read the other thread as I have no advice on the subject of IQ and it doesn't matter to me what my kids IQ are anyhow.  I read this thread only because I value your opinion.  I'm not a stalker or anything.......  :) 

 

I have bigger problems than worrying about IQ.  For example, is it really a punishment when you put your child in time out only to look at her after a few minutes and she's there swinging her legs with a big smile on her face?   lol 

 

I've been pondering this for some time now.

 

I hope your day gets better! 

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Dd met some peers at language immersion camp this summer. She returned transformed.

 

I have no idea about their IQs (or dd's for that matter as she hasn't been tested). But these high schoolers were learning their third or fourth languages, had passionate interests in studying abroad, politics, and international relations----topics that induce blank stares from the local "intellectual peers" who are STEM-minded and focused on studying engineering in college.

 

She's been feeling very much alone since dropping her single-minded math pursuit. Now she has friends all over the country to text and skype with :)

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High IQ individuals aren't immune from "life" and complicated issues. Our Aspie has a high IQ (even without it being able to be completely accurate bc he has subscores that are multiple stanines apart (like 2nd percentile to 99th percentile spreads.). Having a high IQ has not meant that he isn't OCD or ADD. It hasn't prevented him from suffering from high anxiety. It hasn't helped his complete lack of executive functioning skills. Honestly, the only thing I think his high IQ has done is make him more aware of his deficits which only increases his depression.

 

Oh I understand that completely, and I'm sorry to hear your story from the other day, though I can certainly relate. I am high IQ, also an aspie with serious mental health issues from childhood onwards. I understand and perceive things well, I 'get' things, I see connections. And yet I struggle to perform normal daily functions like household chores, and have, at times, been ordered by doctors not to be alone (not for suicide risk, but because of psychosis-type events where I become a danger to myself because I have the brain function of a heavily intoxicated person). Being bright made me even more aware of my limitations, and sometimes I look at my mental health peers and wonder if I would have been happier with my life if I was a little lower IQ. I have never fit in with other high-IQ types because of my challenges (many of them are quirky, as we know, but I go a little beyond quirky), and I lost the desire to go into advanced university classes long before graduating high school (though I always kind of wish I could have gotten a job, like, as a police/forensic analyst or something, is that the title? those people who look at all the data and make little connections and profiles and leads. I am loving that new female agent on the show NCIS, she's like me on a good day, minus disassociative episodes, but, working and childless lol). In fact, due to my mental health issues I never went to university at all (I did do a year at technical school). But, I make a point to study something that interests me nearly every day, and to teach my children what I learn. 

 

I think what got to me, personally, about that thread was the idea of taking that gift and using it, not wasting it, being repeated. Like anyone who has a high IQ has a responsibility to be a scientist or doctor. But those are intensive, life consuming careers that many 2e people aren't cut out for, and many not-2e people don't want. I dislike feeling like I let people down, or like 'I'm not actually that smart' because I chose not to follow a path that would lead to a high intelligence career. The pressure to achieve because of high IQ is unfair and misplaced, people don't stop being people with their own ideas and dreams and preferences just because they're smart. It's true many people with high IQs WANT those careers and those high achievements, but not all of us do. I always think of that super smart kid on the Fast and the Furious, total genius but not able/wanting to function among that society. Does everyone who is tall have a responsibility to use that gift in a job which utilizes it, like painting or basketball? Does everyone who functions well on little sleep have a responsibility to find a job which uses that, like doctors/nurses/second shift workers? I'm still a person, high IQ or not. Thankfully I was spared much of that pressure because of my mental health issues, people just decided I would never make it in life so why waste resources on me lol.

 

Not really sure what my own point here is.... just trying to figure out why it was bothering me I guess, and 8's story struck a cord. 

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Ironically I just learned the rest of the real story. (I was asleep when he got home from work last night.) He did not stay at the library and go out to lunch. He just called and told me that b/c he felt guilty about his temper tantrum. He really walked directly to Goodwill and sat there. Eventually his supervisor told him he could clock in early.

 

He is so rigid in his thinking. :( It is painful to watch.

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I think what got to me, personally, about that thread was the idea of taking that gift and using it, not wasting it, being repeated. Like anyone who has a high IQ has a responsibility to be a scientist or doctor. But those are intensive, life consuming careers that many 2e people aren't cut out for, and many not-2e people don't want. I dislike feeling like I let people down, or like 'I'm not actually that smart' because I chose not to follow a path that would lead to a high intelligence career. The pressure to achieve because of high IQ is unfair and misplaced, people don't stop being people with their own ideas and dreams and preferences just because they're smart. It's true many people with high IQs WANT those careers and those high achievements, but not all of us do. I always think of that super smart kid on the Fast and the Furious, total genius but not able/wanting to function among that society. Does everyone who is tall have a responsibility to use that gift in a job which utilizes it, like painting or basketball? Does everyone who functions well on little sleep have a responsibility to find a job which uses that, like doctors/nurses/second shift workers? I'm still a person, high IQ or not. Thankfully I was spared much of that pressure because of my mental health issues, people just decided I would never make it in life so why waste resources on me lol.

 

Oh God yes. I always wanted to be a teacher. All my life. From the time I started reading books. But I heard so much from everyone else about how I needed to "use that gift". I should be out curing cancer or something. 

 

I wouldn't be happy or fulfilled in a research career, and the idea that I had some sort of obligation to do that really damaged my life for a long time. Honestly I still think it might have been better if I'd just done a 4-year ed degree in the first place, but I'm in a happy place now. 

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I think a big part is the difference between MG and PG. i run into this in my homeschool group and with non HS families q lot. Parents with kids who are identified GT, who are happy, social, and don't struggle and drop out of the GT pullout because "I'd rather be with my friends", or for whom doing a slightly accelerated curriculum at home solves everything.

 

The difference between that experience and my personal experience and my DD's experience is dramatic. Because yes, the cluster of traits that is labeled as "PG" can make it tough, and I remember Jr high being complete and total hell. I see in my DD that same set of feelings, and it terrifies me.

 

 

I also heard the "don't waste it"-which is one reason why I ended up collecting a bunch of degrees and certifications. Because it seemed to be the only thing that justified my wanting to be with, teach, and love little kids. To have a heap of letters and credentials, to publish and write...to be more than just a teacher.

 

I also see my DD panicked, at age 10, that she's going to do something to "wreck my career". She's 10. She doesn't have a career yet. She's a kid who loves snakes and frogs. I'm very afraid that she's putting that pressure on herself-that fear of failing everyone if she decides she wants to do something else.

 

More than anything else, I want my daughter to be happy in her own skin.

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I think a big part is the difference between MG and PG. i run into this in my homeschool group and with non HS families q lot. Parents with kids who are identified GT, who are happy, social, and don't struggle and drop out of the GT pullout because "I'd rather be with my friends", or for whom doing a slightly accelerated curriculum at home solves everything.

 

 

 

I know MG and PG who are happy, social, and don't struggle. I also know MG and PG who do. I'm not sure crossing some arbitrary IQ line from MG to PG changes everything about a person. I'm not comfortable putting MG in this box and PG in that one. There are so many facets of human genetics. There are so many life experiences that shape who a person becomes. 

 

Sometimes I wonder if the knowledge of a child being PG changes everything - the way the parents acts toward the child, the way the parents perceives the child and other children, the way the parent raises the child....not to mention the effects on the child when he/she finds out...

 

To clarify a bit: If the parent didn't know the child's IQ, he or she might be more likely to look at the child as a whole person instead of a number, attributing everything to that number. There are many, many reasons children act and think the way they do.

 

Perception...so much boils down to perception...

 

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Oh God yes. I always wanted to be a teacher. All my life. From the time I started reading books. But I heard so much from everyone else about how I needed to "use that gift". I should be out curing cancer or something.

.

I also wanted to teach, but was consistently discouraged because teachers aren't paid well. (My single mom was very big on self-sufficiency.) I ended up being a tax litigator, which I love, but I still daydream about teaching. But honestly I don't know that K-12 teaching would have been a good fit for me. My job gives me access to intellectual peers, and that is so important to my mental and emotional well being. I look at my high school classmates who became teachers, and while they are great people whom I've always liked, they are not my peers. I'm an IQ outlier and I need others like me to thrive. I've found my tribe in tax law, and I'm incredibly grateful for that.
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I also see my DD panicked, at age 10, that she's going to do something to "wreck my career". She's 10. She doesn't have a career yet. She's a kid who loves snakes and frogs. I'm very afraid that she's putting that pressure on herself-that fear of failing everyone if she decides she wants to do something else.

 

 

This is something my dd and I have discussed in-depth recently. One of her intense interests is changing, prompting lots of reflection on why she does what she does and the influence others have. I remind her how often we hear of long, winding, crooked, broken paths that leads people to the life of their dreams.

 

Be who you are, where you are....

 

Don't be afraid of change. It's part of the journey.

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I also wanted to teach, but was consistently discouraged because teachers aren't paid well. (My single mom was very big on self-sufficiency.) I ended up being a tax litigator, which I love, but I still daydream about teaching. But honestly I don't know that K-12 teaching would have been a good fit for me. My job gives me access to intellectual peers, and that is so important to my mental and emotional well being. I look at my high school classmates who became teachers, and while they are great people whom I've always liked, they are not my peers. I'm an IQ outlier and I need others like me to thrive. I've found my tribe in tax law, and I'm incredibly grateful for that.

 

 This is a good example of how sometimes it's incredibly difficult to know what will make us happy, even hindsight can trick us. 

 

It sounds like you found a good career fit. That is worth so much!

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Ruth,

IQ is a double edged sword. Some kids have identity crisis, some don't. Some have strong support, some don't.

When I was in the gifted program in my own country, there was a dedicated psychologist paid by the govt. for the students. I know a few ex-classmate with suicidal thoughts and didn't dare to tell the program psychologist. In the end the parents paid for private psychiatrist when the child was able to ask for help from family.

One ex-classmate "derail" so badly that it is scary but understandable if you know her mom when she was growing up. Reminds me of Shakespeare's tragedies.

The news link is R rated but explains the identity crisis and inner turmoil.
http://www.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/Movies/9902/10/annabel.chong/
 

But these high schoolers were learning their third or fourth languages, had passionate interests in studying abroad, politics, and international relations----topics that induce blank stares from the local "intellectual peers" who are STEM-minded and focused on studying engineering in college.

:lol: DS10 was self teaching his 3rd and 4th foreign/world language yesterday at the library. Before the library open, he was learning from duolingo using the city's free wifi.
He would probably be happy in Netherland's education system doing five languages.

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Sometimes I wonder if the knowledge of a child being PG changes everything - the way the parents acts toward the child, the way the parents perceives the child and other children, the way the parent raises the child....not to mention the effects on the child when he/she finds out...

 

I was chatting about some overly competitive and/or braggy parents yesterday with hubby and hubby was saying that the word gifted is so emotionally loaded in society now. My in-laws knew my kids were quirky from newborn.  The wisc test scores didn't change anything other than an acceptance to homeschooling being the best option right now.

 

I think it is hard for kids not to know if they are outliers in a B&M school/class/co-op. Even teachers can feel/sense it and accommodate without a FSIQ score.

 

DS10 read this book at the library yesterday and laughed through some pages

"The Gifted Teen Survival Guide: Smart, Sharp, and Ready for (Almost) Anything"

 

Sometimes​ one or more intense interest is put on a backburner and loops back in many years later. 

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I posted something then deleted it because I felt I wasn't expressing myself well. Within the short time that I posted and now I've actually forgotten what I said (beginning of semester here is just crazy busy and my mind is flying off in so many directions, sorry). The gist of it is that we've only had to rely on IQ scores on or two times but both were helpful to help me understand what I needed to do for him and to rule out learning disability or spectrum issues (some of his quirks mimicked spectrum behavior but I see now that it seems common among his high iq friends too).

 

I also wanted to mention to that OP that the "gift" can sometimes be a "pain" and that it's no one's duty to expect a high IQ person to make use of the person's gifts. That's just too much to place on a young person's shoulders.

 

Ruth, I don't know exactly why you were troubled by it but these threads happen and they are usually good jumping off points for us to take what helps and ignore what doesn't. I LOVE having my child, high IQ or not. I LOVE doing things with him and being his mom. Yes, it's positive here too and I feel like it's such a privilege but that's not just because of IQ. It's because of who he is. Kind, gentle, funny, goofy, so dedicated to his causes, very very exasperatingly absent minded at times but overall, such a gift to me.

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I think a big part is the difference between MG and PG. i run into this in my homeschool group and with non HS families q lot. Parents with kids who are identified GT, who are happy, social, and don't struggle and drop out of the GT pullout because "I'd rather be with my friends", or for whom doing a slightly accelerated curriculum at home solves everything.

 

The difference between that experience and my personal experience and my DD's experience is dramatic. Because yes, the cluster of traits that is labeled as "PG" can make it tough, and I remember Jr high being complete and total hell. I see in my DD that same set of feelings, and it terrifies me.

 

 

 

 

I even see a huge difference between our PG and HG kids. I don't make too much out of IQ or I try not to as best I can, but our PG kid just does not feel that anyone sees the world as he does and it is tough for him to find true peers. He attended a specialized camp this summer and it is the first time I've ever seen him find his tribe. He was a completely different kid that week. I also see the tendency towards depression/anxiety in him and I'm afraid I'm going to have to work very hard to help him stay challenged with others. We also have 2E issues that complicate things even more so just straight acceleration or out of level placement is not always the best option either. I also want him to be happy and thriving, whatever that is for him. But if I'm being honest, his version of happy and challenged and in cooperation with peers is often radically different from age level or much more difficult to find at age level. Which at this point is a big part of what is causing the depression leaning issues. :(

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Oh I understand that completely, and I'm sorry to hear your story from the other day, though I can certainly relate. I am high IQ, also an aspie with serious mental health issues from childhood onwards. I understand and perceive things well, I 'get' things, I see connections. And yet I struggle to perform normal daily functions like household chores, and have, at times, been ordered by doctors not to be alone (not for suicide risk, but because of psychosis-type events where I become a danger to myself because I have the brain function of a heavily intoxicated person). Being bright made me even more aware of my limitations, and sometimes I look at my mental health peers and wonder if I would have been happier with my life if I was a little lower IQ. I have never fit in with other high-IQ types because of my challenges (many of them are quirky, as we know, but I go a little beyond quirky), and I lost the desire to go into advanced university classes long before graduating high school (though I always kind of wish I could have gotten a job, like, as a police/forensic analyst or something, is that the title? those people who look at all the data and make little connections and profiles and leads. I am loving that new female agent on the show NCIS, she's like me on a good day, minus disassociative episodes, but, working and childless lol). In fact, due to my mental health issues I never went to university at all (I did do a year at technical school). But, I make a point to study something that interests me nearly every day, and to teach my children what I learn. 

 

I think what got to me, personally, about that thread was the idea of taking that gift and using it, not wasting it, being repeated. Like anyone who has a high IQ has a responsibility to be a scientist or doctor. But those are intensive, life consuming careers that many 2e people aren't cut out for, and many not-2e people don't want. I dislike feeling like I let people down, or like 'I'm not actually that smart' because I chose not to follow a path that would lead to a high intelligence career. The pressure to achieve because of high IQ is unfair and misplaced, people don't stop being people with their own ideas and dreams and preferences just because they're smart. It's true many people with high IQs WANT those careers and those high achievements, but not all of us do. I always think of that super smart kid on the Fast and the Furious, total genius but not able/wanting to function among that society. Does everyone who is tall have a responsibility to use that gift in a job which utilizes it, like painting or basketball? Does everyone who functions well on little sleep have a responsibility to find a job which uses that, like doctors/nurses/second shift workers? I'm still a person, high IQ or not. Thankfully I was spared much of that pressure because of my mental health issues, people just decided I would never make it in life so why waste resources on me lol.

 

Not really sure what my own point here is.... just trying to figure out why it was bothering me I guess, and 8's story struck a cord. 

 

Interesting.  My take on the thread was that many, particularly those with high IQs, were chiming in to say, "These are the kinds of expectations we felt, and frankly those expectations were often painful or actually de-motivating.  Please consider this possibility as your proceed with your child."  I was surprised by the number of voices coming from that side of that coin, because I had half-expected the vast majority of the posts to be filled with hearty congratulations and laundry lists of resources for gifted children.

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 We do socialize. We just don't do it the way many, many people here do (via competitions, summer camps etc). I walk into some of those things sometimes and I want to run away because of the expectations and competitiveness.

 

 

 

Thanks for posting quark! I loved your whole post, but was afraid to quote too much. We have similar reactions to what you've described. I keep hearing how wonderful the socialization is at competitions, summer camps, etc. As always, it depends on the child! Our experience has been quite different than what I often read here, thus reinforcing my belief that IQ is only a part of the equation. Expensive lesson. 

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Sorry I wrote up the post and then went to bed. :001_smile:   I didn't really explain myself because I needed to ponder a bit. 

 

Why did it make you sad?

 

There were just so many stories about parents pushing kids to their 'full' potential, about kids being glad they sidestepped the bullet of giftedness, stuff like that.  It was just sad to me.  There seemed to be very few positive stories, and none that I read with any depth.  I think that people like me are very hesitant to go into a thread like that and give a different side of the story.  It feels too braggy, or somehow against the ideal of all of us being equal.  I'm sure part of the thread's direction was due to question/tone of the OP, but the thread was generally about how high IQ is nothing special and won't help you in this world.  And no one seemed to be willing to counter this tone, certainly not me.

 

A large part of my ds's identify is based on his success in maths, and that success is due to a lot of hard work but also a high IQ.  He would not be where he is today without both parts of the equation.  In contrast, I tutor kids in maths who also work hard, but still struggle.  If I could just give them a few IQ points, they could get somewhere with all their hard work.  They could have a more positive outcome.  They would not feel like such failures.  I think that IQ is a piece of the puzzle, and to dismiss it is to not see the whole picture.

 

ETA: I posted this before reading all of your insights in *this* thread.  I've got a busy morning, so will come back and read later today. 

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I agree. There is no way DD would be able to be involved in science at the level and depth she is at her age without the qualities that lead to high test scores. The ability to learn quickly and completely, the focus and concentration and dedication, and so on. It's a big part of who she is, and it's what makes her different from the kids who come to the education events, who love animals and are interested in them.

 

 

I can't imagine her without that drive, that eagerness and focus, that intensity. She wouldn't be "her" without it. She had it even as a tiny baby.

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Sorry I wrote up the post and then went to bed. :001_smile: I didn't really explain myself because I needed to ponder a bit.

 

 

There were just so many stories about parents pushing kids to their 'full' potential, about kids being glad they sidestepped the bullet of giftedness, stuff like that. It was just sad to me. There seemed to be very few positive stories, and none that I read with any depth. I think that people like me are very hesitant to go into a thread like that and give a different side of the story. It feels too braggy, or somehow against the ideal of all of us being equal. I'm sure part of the thread's direction was due to question/tone of the OP, but the thread was generally about how high IQ is nothing special and won't help you in this world. And no one seemed to be willing to counter this tone, certainly not me.

 

A large part of my ds's identify is based on his success in maths, and that success is due to a lot of hard work but also a high IQ. He would not be where he is today without both parts of the equation. In contrast, I tutor kids in maths who also work hard, but still struggle. If I could just give them a few IQ points, they could get somewhere with all their hard work. They could have a more positive outcome. They would not feel like such failures. I think that IQ is a piece of the puzzle, and to dismiss it is to not see the whole picture.

 

ETA: I posted this before reading all of your insights in *this* thread. I've got a busy morning, so will come back and read later today.

I didn't read the thread that way. I read the responses as directly aimed at the tone in the OP which definitely caused me to hesitate in responding. I didnt read the responses as anyone suggesting that it shouldn't influence what she learns, but more along the lines that the world was not going roll out the red carpet and grant wishes bc of an IQ score. I think the suggestion that a school system should fund an alternative school due to an IQ score or what doors are going to open due to a score are fairly unrealistic. I think that is what people were responding to. That the IQ itself will not open doors, only what she accomplishes herself.
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 I'm sure part of the thread's direction was due to question/tone of the OP, but the thread was generally about how high IQ is nothing special and won't help you in this world. 

 

I think it is also because the OP's (of the other thread) daughter is 14 already. Teens seems to be a yucky time to be in the midst of finding your own identity and then have parents expectations go up because of a score. The child before getting the test score is the same child after knowing her test score.

 

I am assuming that there are many IRL people congratulating the OP on her daughter's IQ score. I think the replies to that thread were written in the sense of a reality check kind of reply since we don't know the OP in real life.

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It's often weird to be a parent of a HG child who really doesn't have an academic passion or focus. No, she's not PG so maybe I just don't understand, but there is so much I can't relate to in this forum simply because academic type learning isn't what drives her. Mostly it just means that she's a wicked fast learner so we get through stuff so she can get on with her life. She is 2e too which for her exhibits as super fast learner meets super slow output. She is terrified of all the cool tests and things that you guys post about here. Exams and academic competitions for fun are a complete nightmare for her. She is truly horrified at the thought.

 

Just today we were talking about future SAT plans and testing accommodations and stuff. She said what if I don't want to go to college. I said that was her choice. She has a couple science-based goals in the long-term but right now her passions are things like circus arts.

 

She has OEs, anxieties and many other stereotypical giftedness gifts. But, if she doesn't have interest in pushing the academic envelope right now, I'm not concerned. It's just a weird place to be as a parent sometimes.

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I should be working, but keep feeling drawn back here. :D

 

This is something my dd and I have discussed in-depth recently. One of her intense interests is changing, prompting lots of reflection on why she does what she does and the influence others have. I remind her how often we hear of long, winding, crooked, broken paths that leads people to the life of their dreams.

 

Be who you are, where you are....

 

Don't be afraid of change. It's part of the journey.

 

Yes! I am really glad we read biographies whenever we could because I am glad to have those ready examples to point him to when he questions himself. We always fall back on Feynman somehow. How he was this guy who always thought about things and how the ability to think about things can lead you to different paths, whether it be math or physics or lit or history. What's important is that you are willing to think, be open and yet critical, be interested, be aware and observant. And he was such a hoot, such a clown and trickster on top of that (I know some people didn't like that about Feynman lol). Thinking aloud...do we really need to peg ourselves to one thing? Should our identity be tied to that one thing? Why? My brother does some really cool work in his field and never for one moment did we ever imagine he would invent something (because his field is not about that) and he did. He tried this one instrument and was very dissatisfied with it and came up with a different design and is now working on improving and marketing it so that more lives might possibly be saved one day. My parents did put a lot of pressure on him, but luckily, not to save the world. His invention might not actually save lives but he pushed himself to this point by himself.

 

I think the world is no longer limited to having strengths in just one area. My job now is another example. I have to learn some very new to me skills quickly in order to be able to do what I used to previously farm out to someone else to do.

 

Over here, we are having those conversations too and somehow he still ends up back to spending most of his free time on literature and thinking time on math. These things haven't changed much since he was 9yo. But he is exploring other bunny trails and finding himself intrigued. Programming for one and in C++ not Java although everyone keeps telling him Java is a better language to learn first. He politely listens and then turns to C++ again. This was the kid who didn't know anything abut it until a semester ago. At one point he did say he doesn't want to do a lot of math anymore, but while solving puzzles on a paper during his free time lol and he had just been scratching something mathy out on the whiteboard (we now have these cool wallmounted black glass boards, wish I could show them to you guys). I just kept quiet (ETA: err, what I meant is that I didn't panic and draw in a deep breath lol) and asked him to think about the things he reaches for in his free time. What is it that comes automatically to him. And I asked him to think of what else he might like to pursue to that extent so that he can be comfortable doing it often, or automatically. I remember feeling all these things as a teen, questioning who I was. I wish I had had someone show me areas I could have worked at, areas I didn't know existed. I am happy he is questioning it because if math is to become his specialization he needs to know he dabbled as much as possible in other things too and hopefully, keep dabbling in those things. I'd like to open those doors for DS. Biographies are such a great way to start.

 

It's often weird to be a parent of a HG child who really doesn't have an academic passion or focus. No, she's not PG so maybe I just don't understand, but there is so much I can't relate to in this forum simply because academic type learning isn't what drives her. Mostly it just means that she's a wicked fast learner so we get through stuff so she can get on with her life. She is 2e too which for her exhibits as super fast learner meets super slow output. She is terrified of all the cool tests and things that you guys post about here. Exams and academic competitions for fun are a complete nightmare for her. She is truly horrified at the thought.

Just today we were talking about future SAT plans and testing accommodations and stuff. She said what if I don't want to go to college. I said that was her choice. She has a couple science-based goals in the long-term but right now her passions are things like circus arts.

She has OEs, anxieties and many other stereotypical giftedness gifts. But, if she doesn't have interest in pushing the academic envelope right now, I'm not concerned. It's just a weird place to be as a parent sometimes.

 

I have an academic kid who is not interested in tests and contests. He has agreed to try a handful over the last 6-8 years but they really are not his thing. Sometimes I really wish DS would take something up like circus arts, especially when he stumbles one more time and can't catch himself. He was always knocking into things and falling down as a small one but hated tumbling activities designed to help with things like that. He somehow needed to grow into his body and is so much more balanced now (meaning that limbs/ center of gravity etc are finally evening out). Isn't it interesting how alike yet different our kids are? Fascinating.

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Sorry I wrote up the post and then went to bed. :001_smile:   I didn't really explain myself because I needed to ponder a bit. 

 

 

There were just so many stories about parents pushing kids to their 'full' potential, about kids being glad they sidestepped the bullet of giftedness, stuff like that.  It was just sad to me.  There seemed to be very few positive stories, and none that I read with any depth.  I think that people like me are very hesitant to go into a thread like that and give a different side of the story.  It feels too braggy, or somehow against the ideal of all of us being equal.  I'm sure part of the thread's direction was due to question/tone of the OP, but the thread was generally about how high IQ is nothing special and won't help you in this world.  And no one seemed to be willing to counter this tone, certainly not me.

 

A large part of my ds's identify is based on his success in maths, and that success is due to a lot of hard work but also a high IQ.  He would not be where he is today without both parts of the equation.  In contrast, I tutor kids in maths who also work hard, but still struggle.  If I could just give them a few IQ points, they could get somewhere with all their hard work.  They could have a more positive outcome.  They would not feel like such failures.  I think that IQ is a piece of the puzzle, and to dismiss it is to not see the whole picture.

 

ETA: I posted this before reading all of your insights in *this* thread.  I've got a busy morning, so will come back and read later today. 

 

aaah..I understand. Thanks for clarifying..

 

I didn't read all the responses on that thread or this one because I tend to have a small attention span when discussion centers around IQ.  The whole concept (of IQ) is so deterministic and flawed.  For better or for worse, I like to believe humans are a lot more nuanced and complex than described by their respective IQs.

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Following.

Welcome :)

 

Check out the books in below link at your library when you are free. Worth a read.

http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/adolescents.htm

 

ETA:

I didn't tell my kids their scores. I don't know mine either. I am curious about it but I did not feel a need to know it.

 

ETA:

This thread might interest you too

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/560457-high-school-and-extracurricular-passions/page-1

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aaah..I understand. Thanks for clarifying..

 

I didn't read all the responses on that thread or this one because I tend to have a small attention span when discussion centers around IQ.  The whole concept (of IQ) is so deterministic and flawed.  For better or for worse, I like to believe humans are a lot more nuanced and complex than described by their respective IQs.

 

I agree that IQ is flawed.  But these kids that I work with just need some more intelligence somehow.  I teach a 14 year old who can NOT understand that 1/2+1/4 is 3/4ths.  I've tried all sorts of things, including sending her home to play with water and measuring cups.  She knows her  peers get this stuff, she knows that she works hard, so all she can conclude is that she is stupid.  Just a little bit more intelligence would make all the difference to her.  I think it is really unfair to these types of kids to not recognize that IQ  (or some sort of unmeasurable intelligence) affects outcomes. Sometimes it feels like people say that all that matters is hard work, and of course that is so important.  But I have yet to tutor a kid who could ever do what my ds does even with the best teachers and hours and hours a day of work.  They just don't have the intelligence to do it. 

 

When we received ds's scores, I was overwhelmed like the OPer in the other thread.  Like her, I kept asking, 'what does this mean.'  Perhaps it was because the girl was 14, but to say it means nothing, seems to miss the point.  It seems to me that knowing you have a high IQ might help you in the same way as knowing you have dyslexia.  No longer do you wonder, now you know, and so much is explained.  Not just why everything is easy, but why you might struggle to relate to your peers, or why you might overthink the obvious.  I always think it helps to know yourself.  Now the whole, stick her in mensa thing is super goofy and focuses on all the wrong things, but that was the dad.  The mom came here searching for answers, and I know I have been there before.

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I agree that IQ is flawed. But these kids that I work with just need some more intelligence somehow. I teach a 14 year old who can NOT understand that 1/2+1/4 is 3/4ths. I've tried all sorts of things, including sending her home to play with water and measuring cups. She knows her peers get this stuff, she knows that she works hard, so all she can conclude is that she is stupid. Just a little bit more intelligence would make all the difference to her. I think it is really unfair to these types of kids to not recognize that IQ (or some sort of unmeasurable intelligence) affects outcomes. Sometimes it feels like people say that all that matters is hard work, and of course that is so important. But I have yet to tutor a kid who could ever do what my ds does even with the best teachers and hours and hours a day of work. They just don't have the intelligence to do it.

 

When we received ds's scores, I was overwhelmed like the OPer in the other thread. Like her, I kept asking, 'what does this mean.' Perhaps it was because the girl was 14, but to say it means nothing, seems to miss the point. It seems to me that knowing you have a high IQ might help you in the same way as knowing you have dyslexia. No longer do you wonder, now you know, and so much is explained. Not just why everything is easy, but why you might struggle to relate to your peers, or why you might overthink the obvious. I always think it helps to know yourself. Now the whole, stick her in mensa thing is super goofy and focuses on all the wrong things, but that was the dad. The mom came here searching for answers, and I know I have been there before.

Ruth, I just went through and skimmed that thread again and I still do not read it that way. With the exception of a couple of posters (and posts I completely ignored the first time through) the main message I got was not that IQ makes no difference in their lives, but that knowing her IQ vs not knowing it a few days earlier made no difference in who her dd is. Most of the posts encouraged taking cues from the dd about what she wants to do, going deep, exploring passions, and watching out for boredom.

 

What answers did you specifically see the mom searching for? What questioning did you sense in that post that was disregarded by most responders? Or did the responses of just a handful of posters color your view of the entire thread? (I have definitely had that reaction before.)

 

ETA: and as a mom with kids with labels, the advice that your child is still the same child as before the label is typical, dyslexia included. :)

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What answers did you specifically see the mom searching for? What questioning did you sense in that post that was disregarded by most responders? Or did the responses of just a handful of posters color your view of the entire thread? (I have definitely had that reaction before.)

 

This.  I don't really want to read the thread again, but the posts standing out in my mind are from posters whose comments don't ever connect with my reality anyway. 

 

We are coming up on exam time here in NZ, and I am just so worried for some of the students I tutor.  Unfortunately, so much of teens' identity revolves around school and exam marks.  So I am just feeling sensitive and sorry for kids who struggle so much.  It so affects how they view themselves.  I have kids who are cutters, bullied, the bully, dyslexic, dysgraphic, physically ill, mentally ill, institutionalized.  Only one of my kids has a strong idenity.  Failing over and over again certainly does not help them have a positive view of themselves.  At times like this a high IQ seems like a luxury and something to desire.  Obviously, it would not fix all of their problems, but it would fix some of them specifically because academics at this age is a huge part of their lives.  It won't be in the future, but at 15, it is.

 

 

 

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Something about that thread bothers me, but I honestly can't quite put my finger on it.... 

 

Right there with you.  And I can't really articulate what it is, but I have given it a lot of thought.

 

Thinking about it, it seems to boil down to the whole reason that my mother was so strongly opposed to my looking into DS's IQ score or pursuing any "gifted" label for him.  She said he would be defined as a number, where I always looked at it as a tool to gauge and help us assess what avenues we should take.  Not as our primary reason, but adding another layer to help us guide him into the best, most well-rounded, content person he can be.

 

I use the information to get a clearer picture of who he is, what he is capable of, and how to help him with his struggles.  Knowing he's around the line between HG and PG and looking into the different ways that those kids perceive the world has been immensely helpful not only in school, but as his mother.  It made me a better advocate for what he needs, and gave me the confidence to proceed forward with what my gut instinct was telling me, where before I would have second guessed myself.

 

Who he becomes, what he decides to do with his life, will be based on his own choices in life.  He has the ability to do ANYTHING that he WANTS, which is not the case for most people.  He could be a rocket scientist or a plumber - the choice is up to him.  My job, as his teacher, and as his mother is to help him learn how to both succeed and fail, and knowing his natural abilities helps me do that.  He is not defined by a number, just as he is not solely defined because he is a white male, but both are part of who he is. 

 

 

ETA...

He probably lacks the ability to pursue a creative field.  The world is too black and white for him. 

 

And, I didn't see some of Ruth's comments about natural ability until after I had posted.  I will strongly agree with her.  Some things can be overcome with hard work, but other's are limited by intelligence.  The inability to do something is not failure if one has done everything within their ability to succeed.  This is something that I've discussed with DS at length because of how easily he "gets" things - sometimes, no matter how hard someone tries at something, they will not be able to succeed.

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I can't imagine her without that drive, that eagerness and focus, that intensity. She wouldn't be "her" without it. She had it even as a tiny baby.

 

It's funny you say that.  I was watching old videos of DS this morning (before I even saw this thread) and one really stuck out to me.  He was under 2 at the time, and he and DH were sitting on the floor in front of the fridge playing with magnets.  We hadn't ever worked on numbers before, and my husband was holding 2 magnets, and DS was identifying them as magnets and DH said, "two, there are 2 magnets."  DS put them on the fridge, babbling on about magnets, and then at the end of the video, he grabbed 2 off the fridge, showed them to DH and said, "two magnets" and walked away.

 

It's always been a part of who he is, and he isn't limited by it.  Sure, he has his struggles, and they are different than "average" kids a lot of times.  It's certainly not easy a lot of times, but isn't something that that should be hidden or we should feel ashamed about.

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Interesting.  My take on the thread was that many, particularly those with high IQs, were chiming in to say, "These are the kinds of expectations we felt, and frankly those expectations were often painful or actually de-motivating.  Please consider this possibility as your proceed with your child."  I was surprised by the number of voices coming from that side of that coin, because I had half-expected the vast majority of the posts to be filled with hearty congratulations and laundry lists of resources for gifted children.

 

This is what made me so sad!  How sad for all those people whose parents pushed them too hard just because of a number.  There were just so many voices on that thread with such similar stories.  I just want to tell the OP who is now reading this thread, that it does not have to be that way.  That there are those of us who see high IQ as just one piece of the puzzle of life and use it to inform us only when it is useful.  My son knows that my approach to finding contentment in the working world is to fulfil the three part triangle.  You want to love what you do, be good at it, and have work both available & reasonably paid.  If you can get all three points, you will be happier than if you have just 2.  High IQ does mean that there are more jobs that my ds can be good at, but he still needs the other 2 points of the triangle to find contentment.

 

How can so many parents get it wrong for there to have been so many similar stories?  Is it just pride?  Why in the world would you push your kid to 'live up to their potential.'  It is just yucky!

 

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How can so many parents get it wrong for there to have been so many similar stories?  Is it just pride?  Why in the world would you push your kid to 'live up to their potential.'  It is just yucky!

 

Pride.

I want better for you than what I had.

Get a good job and be successful and then you can think about doing what you want.

There are too few pieces of the pie left.

Neighbor's boy did it and so can you.

Your cousin is in X and you should be there too (or somewhere more selective).

Our family name (which comes back to pride?).

Why not?

You can't put bread on the table with art.

Dancer? Are you crazy? Who will marry you?

:D Anyone want to add more reasons?

 

I don't know. Too many variables Ruth. Wish it weren't so but it is.

 

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How can so many parents get it wrong for there to have been so many similar stories? Is it just pride? Why in the world would you push your kid to 'live up to their potential.' It is just yucky!

 

How many times on these boards have we read comments to push the child in music practice, sports or Latin or anything else because the child will get over the hump and the child will thank you (the parent) in the future for forcing him/her to perserve.

 

While it might be pride for some people, I think the driving force for most is worry about unintentionally closing doors for their kids or missing opportunities for their kids.

 

Sometimes the teachers push a whole lot more than the parents. My teachers were much more pushy than my parents who allow me to chart my own destiny since elementary school.

 

Parents are faced with the blame from teachers and relatives if their kids are "tagged" as underachievers. How many parents or grandparents do we (general) know who are confident enough to ignore societal expectations on their kids. What if a child can easily earn an academic scholarship but choose not to apply for whatever reasons. Or a child gets accepted into a prestigious high school on a full scholarship but choose not to go in the end.

 

My parents paid in full for my university education because academics was never my passion despite intellectual ability that allows me to cruise even during undergrad days. I am lucky they could afford it for where I wanted to go. My hubby worked hard academically and was a scholar. If my parents won't so financially comfortable, they would probably have nag me to do well enough to be a scholar or graduate with $24k in loans.

 

ETA:

I was a volunteer math tutor. What I actually end up doing is just being "a shoulder to cry on" (Tommy Page, 1988) and by some miracle the kids made it. One kid was just two years younger than me at that time and just needed a D for math. Her other subjects were good enough to get her where she wanted to go.

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I can't imagine her without that drive, that eagerness and focus, that intensity. She wouldn't be "her" without it. She had it even as a tiny baby.

 

Without negating your pov, I'd like to offer a different perspective. Could it be possible that your DD could be just as intense, driven, eager to learn and focussed- without the 'PG'ness/high IQ?

 

The reason I ask is because the assumption implicit on most threads wrt 'High IQ' is that average or the other categories/segments of intelligence do not share personality traits with MG/HG/PG.

 

I have met extremely intense individuals with average abilities and skills. And I have met very laidback children/adults who show prodigious abilities/skills.

 

IMhO, it's erroneous to correlate personality traits (intensity, drive, ambition) to HG/PG/et al. Often personality and IQ aren't perfectly mapped to each other.

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It is interesting that so many can read a thread and come away with such different thoughts. My thought was thinking about how unique education funding is in New Hampshire in small towns. State law allows school boards in towns in NH that do not have high schools or upper grades to contract with neighboring towns to negotiate tuition agreements sending tax dollars to any accredited public or PRIVATE school (with the exception of religious schools). So the daughter of the person who posted could potentially get her school district to pay for a more academically challenging school than the closest high school. How awesome is that. That is a fantastic reason to get an IQ test if you can use the results to get your child enrolled into a school that would be a better match for your child. So when I was reading the post my thought was "I am so jealous!"

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 Could it be possible that your DD could be just as intense, driven, eager to learn and focussed- without the 'PG'ness/high IQ?

 

My ds's intensity can be broken into a number of subtraits:

 

complete focus

fast processing speed

large working memory

unexpected connections

creative insight

 

And these are all parts of IQ.  Add to this off-the-charts persistence and motivation and a bit of self-centered enthusiasm, and then add in a large dose of extrovertion and you get intensity.  

 

For *my* ds, intensity *is* a reflection of IQ.

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It is interesting that so many can read a thread and come away with such different thoughts. My thought was thinking about how unique education funding is in New Hampshire in small towns. State law allows school boards in towns in NH that do not have high schools or upper grades to contract with neighboring towns to negotiate tuition agreements sending tax dollars to any accredited public or PRIVATE school (with the exception of religious schools). So the daughter of the person who posted could potentially get her school district to pay for a more academically challenging school than the closest high school. How awesome is that. That is a fantastic reason to get an IQ test if you can use the results to get your child enrolled into a school that would be a better match for your child. So when I was reading the post my thought was "I am so jealous!"

 

Thank you!!!!!  I am the OP from the other thread. My whole point of adding this background information was to let the Hive know that I really do not care what her actual IQ score is and we tested her only to use it to our small-town political advantage. I always knew she was intelligent and grasped concepts very easily. To put an actual number on it, in reality, does not change much for her or myself or the way she learns or her future goals. However, I DO see her intelligence as a gift or talent or whatever you want to call it (just as I always had before we knew a specific number) that I expect her to use in her career choice or to further humanity or just in her everyday life, just as I think someone with a gift of artistic ability or the gift of verbal communication would do the same.

 

Apparently my gift is not written communication because my question in the other thread was simply what programs are available to her now that I have an actual IQ number? This is what I meant by "doors are open for her." I guess I thought that was obvious when I began writing about how my husband wanted her to join Mensa.

 

But, I will not hijack this thread, just wanted to insert my explanation. I am going to post another thread on this board specifically about programs, so please click on it if you have a moment.

 

Carry on......

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My ds's intensity can be broken into a number of subtraits:

 

complete focus

fast processing speed

large working memory

unexpected connections

creative insight

 

And these are all parts of IQ. Add to this off-the-charts persistence and motivation and a bit of self-centered enthusiasm, and then add in a large dose of extrovertion and you get intensity.

 

For *my* ds, intensity *is* a reflection of IQ.

I still don't see the connection between intensity and the 5 traits you've mentioned. Correlation doesn't imply causation... But to each his/her own.

 

Fwiw, I didn't come to this thread intending to pick an argument; just wanted to express that there are multiple and equally valid perspectives to the high IQ issue.

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My ds's intensity can be broken into a number of subtraits:

 

complete focus

fast processing speed

large working memory

unexpected connections

creative insight

 

And these are all parts of IQ. Add to this off-the-charts persistence and motivation and a bit of self-centered enthusiasm, and then add in a large dose of extrovertion and you get intensity.

 

For *my* ds, intensity *is* a reflection of IQ.

But this is exactly why it is impossible to stereotype based on a single slice of a person's overall psyche. Not everyone with a high IQ has similar traits.

 

My ds's IQ is high and his processing speeds are actually in the "mentally inadequate" range. If converted to IQ scale ratings, his processing speeds are 56 and 58 (that is from his first IQ test, the scores were in the 1st and 3rd percentiles. His second test placed them in the 2nd and 18th percentiles.) I am unsure how it even makes sense bc he could read books like the Hobbit in just a few hours when he was little. He can memorize huge amts of data fairly quickly. (As an adult he refuses to read at all. :( )

 

And then you can take some of those traits you listed and they can be disabling and not beneficial. Complete focus, for example. Tip it too far and it becomes complete obsession and blocks out the ability to function healthily. Our ds was completely obsessed with drawing and no, it was not a good in anyway. At 14 he would draw the same picture over and over and over. We are talking for 20+ hrs per day. If you talked to him about eating or using the bathroom, he would get furious at the interruption. He would stab his pencils into the wall in anger and frustration. He would scream that he almost had it perfect. If you looked at the papers wadded around the room and smoothed them out, you would not be able to distinguish a difference, but he was plagued by it. His focus cripples his ability to function.

 

I have no idea what my other kids' IQs are. Some have qualifying scores from middle school. Some don't even take standardized tests until high school. Each and every one of them has a completely unique personality. There is no generalization that fits any of them. I can't teach them the same way. I can't even necessarily just parent them the same way. Some i have to prod to stay on task. Some I have to prod to go hang out. The dynamic with each one is completely individual.

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I still don't see the connection between intensity and the 5 traits you've mentioned. Correlation doesn't imply causation... But to each his/her own.

 

Fwiw, I didn't come to this thread intending to pick an argument; just wanted to express that there are multiple and equally valid perspectives to the high IQ issue.

Fwiw, I hope no one reads my posts in this thread as argumentative. That isn't my intention at all. In our household, this is called dialogue. We hardly ever just agree on anything. Questioning each other's POV is just how we roll. ;)

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