What do you do when one of your children is just a jerk?

[8circles]

Yes, I know that it's important to label the behavior & not the child, but I really am not sure if I can anymore.  I mean, at what point is it no longer bad choices but actually just a jerk?

 

I don't even know if I could give an example.  My oldest, DS12, is just so rude, patronizing, demeaning, etc to his younger brothers.  It isn't even the actual words most of the time, it's his tone of voice.  I seriously don't know what to do about it.  & DS10 gets the brunt of it, is really sensitive anyway, and LOVES playing with DS12 the seemingly rare these days occassions when he isn't being a jerk.  

 

He already talks to someone about his anxiety & yes, we'll bring it up at the next appointment in a couple days.  But I'm seriously going to loose my mind.  

 

Does anyone have ANY encouragement for me?  Please?

 

Please don't quote, I just don't like having to read back such a horrible post.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I have a few things -- hope something helps. Part of it is the age, Mama, you'll get through this. :grouphug:

 

1. Call him on it. Avoid making him feel as if you don't like him - be more neutral than you feel. But do require him to apologize, make amends, try again.

 

2. Remember that for kids, the harder they push you away with antisocial behavior, the more closely you need to gather them in. Quality time. Acceptance. Looking for the good qualities, praising the fine moments, creating space for laughter and silliness.

 

3. When it's all directed at younger siblings, you might need to work harder to help him find friends his own age. Not the Lord of the Flies type who will encourage him to treat his siblings and parents badly, but nice kids from nice families who just have fun being at the same age/stage.

 

 

[DesertBlossom]

No advice. But I can sympathize. My 9 year old is acting this way right now. Much of what he says to younger siblings is rude and demeaning. Telling them everything they like is stupid, for example. When I get after him about it, he says he does that because they always are calling him mean. He may believe that to be true, but I know his behavior came first. He just refuses to believe it. 

 

And so far, nothing I can say or do is stopping the behavior. It's really bothering me.

[Junie]

:grouphug:

 

I've had some of this at my house.  Does your ds12 understand what he sounds like?  Maybe you could record him sometime when he is being mean to his brothers.  Maybe that would help him to understand that he's being a bully.

 

Or even writing down his words and then having a private conversation with him, repeating his words back to him with the tone of voice that he uses.  Maybe this will help him to understand how those words sound to others.

 

I get it.  It is extremely painful to see someone hurting your child.  It is even more painful to see your child hurting someone else.  And in this case, you have both.

 

:grouphug:

[8circles]

I have a few things -- hope something helps. Part of it is the age, Mama, you'll get through this. :grouphug:  

 

1. Call him on it. Avoid making him feel as if you don't like him - be more neutral than you feel. But do require him to apologize, make amends, try again.

 

2. Remember that for kids, the harder they push you away with antisocial behavior, the more closely you need to gather them in. Quality time. Acceptance. Looking for the good qualities, praising the fine moments, creating space for laughter and silliness.

 

3. When it's all directed at younger siblings, you might need to work harder to help him find friends his own age. Not the Lord of the Flies type who will encourage him to treat his siblings and parents badly, but nice kids from nice families who just have fun being at the same age/stage.

 

I have been doing #1 - lately it isn't helping anymore.  But honestly, I usually don't like him these days.  But even when it does work, I then have the dominoe effect of DS10/8 being upset/sad/whatever to deal with.  I'm just over it.

 

I understand #2 - I just don't know if I have anymore left to keep doing this.  I'm spent.  I am laid-back.  I'm spontaneous.  I'm silly.  I don't nit-pick.  I give complements.  He just doesn't seem to want those things.

 

I agree about #3.  He does have LOTS of friends, just not neighbor ones so we have to be more delibrate with get-togethers.  With family vacations & school starting up there hasn't been a lot of time.  He does see them regularly at scouts, when we've been in town.

 

I don't mean to sound like I'm making excuses - I agree with everything you're saying.  I'm just spent.  I just don't know if I have any emotional energy left to deal with this anymore.   I honestly don't know if I can keep doing these things, even though I KNOW they're the right things.

[8circles]

No advice. But I can sympathize. My 9 year old is acting this way right now. Much of what he says to younger siblings is rude and demeaning. Telling them everything they like is stupid, for example. When I get after him about it, he says he does that because they always are calling him mean. He may believe that to be true, but I know his behavior came first. He just refuses to believe it. 

 

And so far, nothing I can say or do is stopping the behavior. It's really bothering me.

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[8circles]

:grouphug:

 

I've had some of this at my house.  Does your ds12 understand what he sounds like?  Maybe you could record him sometime when he is being mean to his brothers.  Maybe that would help him to understand that he's being a bully.

 

Or even writing down his words and then having a private conversation with him, repeating his words back to him with the tone of voice that he uses.  Maybe this will help him to understand how those words sound to others.

 

I get it.  It is extremely painful to see someone hurting your child.  It is even more painful to see your child hurting someone else.  And in this case, you have both.

 

:grouphug:

 

I am not sure if he realizes it in the moment, but he does seem to realize it afterwards.  There's always an apology at some point that sounds sincere.  I know that there is no magic formula for making kids behave all the time & I don't expect perfection, I just don't see any improvement & it actually seems to be getting worse.

[dirty ethel rackham]

Part of it is that whole 12 years old and puberty.   To tell you the truth, I thought my boys were much more moody than dd when it comes to puberty.  I agree with recording the behavior and showing a mash up of those samples to your child to let them see how bad it really is.  Also, work with your child to problem solve.  You make it clear that the behavior is unacceptable.  You ask him to help come up with a solution to change the behavior.  It is also perfectly reasonable for a 12yo boy to be pulling away so your "pulling in close" has to look different now than it did when your child was younger.  It may mean doing something more age appropriate together away from the littles.  It may mean getting this child out of the house with some positive mentors. 

[fairfarmhand]

"Wow. That was unkind. " No lecture, No griping.

 

Often these kids are so wrapped up in "selfness" that they just blurt out whatever from whatever mood they are in.

 

Often the conversation would go like this.

 

Child said something hateful or rude.

 

Mom: "Wow. That was unkind."

 

Child: "But, brother was blah blah blah...."

 

Mom: "There's never an excuse for unkindness."

 

Child: "Blah blah blah"

 

Mom: "There's never a good reason to be unkind to another human being. I try to be kind to you and your brothers, even if I'm feeling grouchy. And this conversation is making me that way. Consider this topic closed." Then I take the offended child and say something like "How bout we go make some cookies or play cards or something. " Then we leave the presence of the unkind child.

 

 

I don't push for apologies. I just leave it at that. Child was unkind. Child knows they are unkind and there's no excuse for it. It's up to them what to do with it. The offended child gets to stew in their own juices and realize that nobody wants to be around a grump.

 

 

(this is on my better days, I'm about 50/50 on implementation. I'm tired too of having the same conversations over and over again,)

[fairfarmhand]

BTW, at ages 12-13 my dd needed much more outside/hard exertion than I gave her. The lack of it showed in how she treated others. Also, bedtime and mealtimes needed to be strictly observed with my monitoring how much junk/carby stuff she got.

 

Those things didn't cure her but they did knock some of the rough edges off of her grumpiness.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

 

I don't mean to sound like I'm making excuses - I agree with everything you're saying.  I'm just spent.  I just don't know if I have any emotional energy left to deal with this anymore.   I honestly don't know if I can keep doing these things, even though I KNOW they're the right things.

 

Nodding. Knowing you a little, I figured I wasn't saying anything you didn't already know. You're a really good mom.

 

Truth? You can keep doing all the things for one reason -- so that even if they grow up deciding to make jerkhood their calling (unlikely but still), you will be able to say, and they will KNOW, that you never gave them a free pass on it. You never stopped teaching them right from wrong. You never stopped telling them the truth. You never stopped loving them anyway. There have been 30 and 40yos who have turned their life around because of that realization, combined with their other life lessons.

 

That's an extremely gut-level, grim motivation to keep at it, but for the 11-14yo crowd sometimes this is all we can say. 15-17 is much better and very promising, then 18 is a total trip and a roller coaster ride that you want off, and then finally adulthood comes, along with a real sense that they'll be OK. IME.

[myfunnybunch]

I am not sure if he realizes it in the moment, but he does seem to realize it afterwards.  There's always an apology at some point that sounds sincere.  I know that there is no magic formula for making kids behave all the time & I don't expect perfection, I just don't see any improvement & it actually seems to be getting worse.

 

12 seems to be a really challenging age for boys. I find myself saying "Tone" often. That's shorthand for "The message is reasonable, but the way it was delivered is not."

 

At 12, I'd just keep an eye on it and keep plugging away. It will get better, but not for a while. "A while" as in a few years. Right now they may not have the emotional self-control to internalize what we're saying and show meaningful consistent behavior change, but they are taking in everything we say. Gentle correction and encouragement that this is a behavior that they will gradually get control over are really important, because we do not want them to ever internalize this behavior as "who I am" instead of "something I need to work on." I tell the olders that I am protecting them from hard hearts as much as I am protecting the youngest from unkind words.

 

I also remind my boys occasionally that they will be brothers for the rest of their lives, even after their dad and I are gone, and it's really important to build the foundation for good relationships now. That includes learning how to treat one another with respect, advocating for oneself when one feels hurt or disrespected, and resolving conflict in healthy ways.

 

I figure this is one of those life issues that may not really bear fruit until they mature and have more emotional self-control.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug: :grouphug:  

[catz]

10 points for Tibbie!

[Tree Frog]

I've found that sending him outside to do something physical (riding a bike or rollerblading, running, outside chores) helps reset things a bit. Also having his dad tell him to knock it off helps. 

[gardenmom5]

not saying this is any of your situations (though I did have this with two of mine) - but look at what is going one before he becomes "rude".

I know a dear lady whose grandson was *always* in trouble at home for how he treated his younger siblings.  she had him and another younger sibling.  she watched closely, and noticed BEFORE the older one did something that got him in trouble all the time at home - the younger one was deliberately pushing his buttons.

 

she sat them both down, told them what she had observed - and let the younger one know if anything happened HE would be the one in trouble because she had seen him being provocative.  didn't matter to her if she observed the actual interaction or not. low and behold - the behaviors stopped. (at least at her house.)

 

when I observed this with mine, I gave some time to that older child giving them tips and strategies for handling it better when the younger sibling (who could act like an angel) was provoking them. 

 

eta - when the older child was able to use those strategies - the younger one found pushing buttons no longer worked, it became boring and stopped.

[gardenmom5]

BTW, at ages 12-13 my dd needed much more outside/hard exertion than I gave her. The lack of it showed in how she treated others. Also, bedtime and mealtimes needed to be strictly observed with my monitoring how much junk/carby stuff she got.

 

Those things didn't cure her but they did knock some of the rough edges off of her grumpiness.

 

 

and "I'm not hungry" isn't an excuse.  sorry kid, you skipped breakfast, you can't skip lunch too. 

[scholastica]

Also, about the putting the youngers' interests down, I found reminding him that, when he was younger, he liked those types of things sometimes helped with the attitude. I reminded him that we didn't/don't call his interests stupid or babyish, even though we've moved on from them. Your son needs to develop patience with those younger/less experienced than he. It's a life skill you will be teaching him for a while. I love Charlotte Mason's reminder that a child is a person. A child's interests, thoughts, feelings and worries are just as important to them as our much bigger concerns, and they are allowed to experience them as such. He should allow his brothers to be 10 and 8, just as you allowed him to be 10 and 8 and don't make fun of him because he likes 12 year old things, he needs to respect them where they are. Also, let him know you understand that he is not trying to hurt them, but that, as we grow, we need to learn that every thought that enters our heads does not need to come out of our mouths. I would also have him do a groundhog every time. You start the interaction over until you get it right. Good luck. It is exhausting. My child most guilty of this has finally outgrown it for the most part and is now very kind and understanding of his siblings.

[Katy]

I had a similar situation.  I blamed hormones.   Trying to keep pronouns neutral so children don't know to which kid I am referring.

 

I made a video.  Kiddo was horrified and had no idea how the behavior seemed to others. It led to a long talk about boundaries and appropriate ways to say no vs inappropriate ways to say no.

 

I think it's important to do this in a calm, emotionally neutral way.  Don't want kiddo to feel they are being bullied. 

[alisoncooks]

:grouphug:  and  :bigear: because I have one of these at home (and the younger sibling who takes the brunt of the harsh behavior).

We've tried coaching appropriate responses, making DD repeat phrases more kindly/in a kinder tone, removing certain phrases from her vocabulary (i.e. she's not allowed to "shush!" her sister).  

 

Hasn't made much of a difference, expect make the younger aware that it's not cool/allowed and comfort her a bit.

Definitely keeping my eyes on this thread. 

[8circles]

Thank you all for your kind, encouraging words. I'm busy ATM but will respond more later.

[Arctic Bunny]

I don't have a lot of advice but.... A couple of years ago at our house we started saying MYOB, which means Mind Your Own Business. But it's not meant in the mean way the actual words sound. It's just a friendly reminder that right now, what you are doing is making the situation worse and you need to back off.

 

About a month ago I told DS10 that we needed another word. Because sometimes he has a tone that he thinks is joking, but I think it sounds like a poor attitude. And that I don't want to get mad at him if he's just joking, but he needs to realize how it sounds to me. He came up with SAMA. Sorry About My Attitude. So he'll say something that sounds like *such* a teenager, I'll give him *that* look, and start to say something, and he says "SAMA, Mom!" And then neither of us needs to be upset or angry, we just move on.

 

Writing it all out, it seems kinda dumb. But it's been working, and it has saved us a lot of repetitive conversations and exasperation.

 

I have also taken the time lately to give him some tools to handle his younger brother as he starts wanting to do more on his own. Instead of DS8 saying "Do you want to play with me?" And DS10 saying "No", and then drama ensuing.... DS10 said "I just want to do this for 10 more minutes and then we can do xyz". And ta-da! DS8 said okay, DS10 followed through, and I vowed never to forget the moment when that happened.

[scholastica]

:grouphug: and :bigear: because I have one of these at home (and the younger sibling who takes the brunt of the harsh behavior).

We've tried coaching appropriate responses, making DD repeat phrases more kindly/in a kinder tone, removing certain phrases from her vocabulary (i.e. she's not allowed to "shush!" her sister).

 

Hasn't made much of a difference, expect make the younger aware that it's not cool/allowed and comfort her a bit.

Definitely keeping my eyes on this thread.

Just keep doing it. Over time, it makes a difference. It will take years, but will be worth it.

[fairfarmhand]

I have also taken the time lately to give him some tools to handle his younger brother as he starts wanting to do more on his own. Instead of DS8 saying "Do you want to play with me?" And DS10 saying "No", and then drama ensuing.... DS10 said "I just want to do this for 10 more minutes and then we can do xyz". And ta-da! DS8 said okay, DS10 followed through, and I vowed never to forget the moment when that happened.

 

This is really important, IMHO. As kids go through stages, their interests change drastically. Sometimes playing legos with the younger kids is just not as appealing as it used to be and those youngers can REALLY be irritating in pestering about it, especially when they don't understand why their long time playmate suddenly (to them) isn't interested. Add in some hormones and it can be a really ugly thing.

 

So the youngers need to be able to take a "no" gracefully without pestering and whining.

 

The olders need to have their "no" or "not now" be heard, especially if they are trying to be civil about it. And they also need to be reminded that rudeness isn't alright. Ever. And they need to remember that the younger kids do love them and want to play like they used to.

[redsquirrel]

I think it needs to more than 'come up' with his therapist. I think you deserve some time all your own and maybe a joint session with him and the therapist. I am saying this from a place of compassion for your situation. You are exhausted and it sounds like he is a challenging kid at the best of times. I've seen this with some friends and it is so freaking hard. I've heard a couple tearful confessions of "I love him like mad, but I sure don't like him much these days." and I've seen how painful that can be for a mom.

 

I hope you get some help, that his therapist is actually useful on this topic, because you deserve some really good support. And your younger kids deserve some respite.

 

And yes, kids that age can be jerks. With my older boy I did have to put a big stop to some stuff. I think I even flat out told him that he was straying into jerk territory at least once. My younger boy is coming up on 11 and I wouldn't be surprised if I had to do it with him. But my kids can hear that once or twice and will make corrections. It means something. With some people it doesn't or they aren't able to make the necessary corrections and need some help getting there.

 

I really hope things ease up soon.

[8circles]

"Wow. That was unkind. " No lecture, No griping.

 

Often these kids are so wrapped up in "selfness" that they just blurt out whatever from whatever mood they are in.

 

Often the conversation would go like this.

 

Child said something hateful or rude.

 

Mom: "Wow. That was unkind."

 

Child: "But, brother was blah blah blah...."

 

Mom: "There's never an excuse for unkindness."

 

Child: "Blah blah blah"

 

Mom: "There's never a good reason to be unkind to another human being. I try to be kind to you and your brothers, even if I'm feeling grouchy. And this conversation is making me that way. Consider this topic closed." Then I take the offended child and say something like "How bout we go make some cookies or play cards or something. " Then we leave the presence of the unkind child.

 

 

I don't push for apologies. I just leave it at that. Child was unkind. Child knows they are unkind and there's no excuse for it. It's up to them what to do with it. The offended child gets to stew in their own juices and realize that nobody wants to be around a grump.

 

 

(this is on my better days, I'm about 50/50 on implementation. I'm tired too of having the same conversations over and over again,)

 

This is what I shoot for.  At this point, though, it's just happening SO OFTEN and it ripples down to the other kids and by the time DS12 realizes and snaps out of it, we are in chaos and everyone is grumpy.

 

Again, not an excuse.  You are right, about the mealtimes & physical activity as well.  This thread is helping me find the strength to carry on.

[8circles]

Nodding. Knowing you a little, I figured I wasn't saying anything you didn't already know. You're a really good mom.

 

Truth? You can keep doing all the things for one reason -- so that even if they grow up deciding to make jerkhood their calling (unlikely but still), you will be able to say, and they will KNOW, that you never gave them a free pass on it. You never stopped teaching them right from wrong. You never stopped telling them the truth. You never stopped loving them anyway. There have been 30 and 40yos who have turned their life around because of that realization, combined with their other life lessons.

 

That's an extremely gut-level, grim motivation to keep at it, but for the 11-14yo crowd sometimes this is all we can say. 15-17 is much better and very promising, then 18 is a total trip and a roller coaster ride that you want off, and then finally adulthood comes, along with a real sense that they'll be OK. IME.

 

Thank you, Tibbie, for all your advice, your kind words, & your encouragement.  Your posts have me in tears.  Today has been really difficult.

[8circles]

12 seems to be a really challenging age for boys. I find myself saying "Tone" often. That's shorthand for "The message is reasonable, but the way it was delivered is not."

 

At 12, I'd just keep an eye on it and keep plugging away. It will get better, but not for a while. "A while" as in a few years. Right now they may not have the emotional self-control to internalize what we're saying and show meaningful consistent behavior change, but they are taking in everything we say. Gentle correction and encouragement that this is a behavior that they will gradually get control over are really important, because we do not want them to ever internalize this behavior as "who I am" instead of "something I need to work on." I tell the olders that I am protecting them from hard hearts as much as I am protecting the youngest from unkind words.

 

I also remind my boys occasionally that they will be brothers for the rest of their lives, even after their dad and I are gone, and it's really important to build the foundation for good relationships now. That includes learning how to treat one another with respect, advocating for oneself when one feels hurt or disrespected, and resolving conflict in healthy ways.

 

I figure this is one of those life issues that may not really bear fruit until they mature and have more emotional self-control.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug: :grouphug:  

 

Thank you, this is helpful.  Lots of things in here I need to remember.

[8circles]

not saying this is any of your situations (though I did have this with two of mine) - but look at what is going one before he becomes "rude".

I know a dear lady whose grandson was *always* in trouble at home for how he treated his younger siblings.  she had him and another younger sibling.  she watched closely, and noticed BEFORE the older one did something that got him in trouble all the time at home - the younger one was deliberately pushing his buttons.

 

she sat them both down, told them what she had observed - and let the younger one know if anything happened HE would be the one in trouble because she had seen him being provocative.  didn't matter to her if she observed the actual interaction or not. low and behold - the behaviors stopped. (at least at her house.)

 

when I observed this with mine, I gave some time to that older child giving them tips and strategies for handling it better when the younger sibling (who could act like an angel) was provoking them. 

 

eta - when the older child was able to use those strategies - the younger one found pushing buttons no longer worked, it became boring and stopped.

 

Yes, this can be an issue.  I've been watching for it & it doesn't seem to be the case now, but I need to keep observing.

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

[8circles]

I had a similar situation.  I blamed hormones.   Trying to keep pronouns neutral so children don't know to which kid I am referring.

 

I made a video.  Kiddo was horrified and had no idea how the behavior seemed to others. It led to a long talk about boundaries and appropriate ways to say no vs inappropriate ways to say no.

 

I think it's important to do this in a calm, emotionally neutral way.  Don't want kiddo to feel they are being bullied. 

 

Yes, this is what I'm struggling with at the moment.  

[8circles]

Please don't allow an older child to put down a sibling for being younger. I've watched a relative allow this, and it's still going on (and they're all in their 30's now).  Call him on it every time!

 

I found that hard, physical labor helped a great deal. Plus, ya' get the chicken house cleaned or the wood split!

 

You're right, and no, I'm not letting it slide.  I repeatedly explain that I wouldn't allow another kid to treat DS12 the way he treats his brothers, I won't allow him to either.

 

I'm already making a list of labor projects to get him going on. 

[8circles]

I don't have a lot of advice but.... A couple of years ago at our house we started saying MYOB, which means Mind Your Own Business. But it's not meant in the mean way the actual words sound. It's just a friendly reminder that right now, what you are doing is making the situation worse and you need to back off.

 

About a month ago I told DS10 that we needed another word. Because sometimes he has a tone that he thinks is joking, but I think it sounds like a poor attitude. And that I don't want to get mad at him if he's just joking, but he needs to realize how it sounds to me. He came up with SAMA. Sorry About My Attitude. So he'll say something that sounds like *such* a teenager, I'll give him *that* look, and start to say something, and he says "SAMA, Mom!" And then neither of us needs to be upset or angry, we just move on.

 

Writing it all out, it seems kinda dumb. But it's been working, and it has saved us a lot of repetitive conversations and exasperation.

 

I have also taken the time lately to give him some tools to handle his younger brother as he starts wanting to do more on his own. Instead of DS8 saying "Do you want to play with me?" And DS10 saying "No", and then drama ensuing.... DS10 said "I just want to do this for 10 more minutes and then we can do xyz". And ta-da! DS8 said okay, DS10 followed through, and I vowed never to forget the moment when that happened.

 

These are great suggestions, I just think we're past it.  I will see if I can bring back this technique at some point, though.  It isn't dumb at all, we're just too far gone at this point.

[8circles]

I think it needs to more than 'come up' with his therapist. I think you deserve some time all your own and maybe a joint session with him and the therapist. I am saying this from a place of compassion for your situation. You are exhausted and it sounds like he is a challenging kid at the best of times. I've seen this with some friends and it is so freaking hard. I've heard a couple tearful confessions of "I love him like mad, but I sure don't like him much these days." and I've seen how painful that can be for a mom.

 

I hope you get some help, that his therapist is actually useful on this topic, because you deserve some really good support. And your younger kids deserve some respite.

 

And yes, kids that age can be jerks. With my older boy I did have to put a big stop to some stuff. I think I even flat out told him that he was straying into jerk territory at least once. My younger boy is coming up on 11 and I wouldn't be surprised if I had to do it with him. But my kids can hear that once or twice and will make corrections. It means something. With some people it doesn't or they aren't able to make the necessary corrections and need some help getting there.

 

I really hope things ease up soon.

 

Thank you.  My fingers are verklempt...

[Melissa in Australia]

from my limited experience, boys between the age of 110-13 go through a stage of being real jerks.  they are way nicer people at 15 or so.

[Corraleno]

Is he getting enough sleep? Exercise? Having a growth spurt? What's his diet like? Has he had any bloodwork done recently? If so, what are his Vit D levels like? You mentioned that he sees a therapist for anxiety issues, and that can certainly contribute to feeling edgy and snappish. Sometimes depression in males can be expressed as anger instead of withdrawal/lethargy. Would it help you to not take it personally if you try to reframe it as a hormonal/biochemical thing? Imagine yourself feeling sleep-deprived, PMSing, stressed out, "hangry" (or on a roller coaster from sugar/carbs) — and with all the self-control of a 12 year old (i.e. very little). 

 

Not that any of those things excuse the behavior, just that it's worth exploring whether any of them may be contributing factors. Plenty of sleep, plenty of protein, plenty of exercise, D3 supplements if needed, plus a lot of empathy, can go a long way in smoothing out the emotional roller coaster of puberty. 

 

Big  :grouphug:  to both you and your son.

 

[aaplank]

I don't know if this will help in your situation, but what has worked here is when a sibling is mean to another sibling, the one in the wrong not only has to apologize in words, but show it in action, like cleaning the other sibling's room, doing the other's chores for the day, making a special treat for him/her, playing a favorite game with him/her.  Usually the mean sibling starts off with a grumpy attitude about having to do the kind deed, but putting love and repentance into action, produces a real heart change that seems to last longer than a superficial apology.

[gardenmom5]

from my limited experience, boys between the age of 110-13 go through a stage of being real jerks.  they are way nicer people at 15 or so.

 

110?  ;)

 

dudeling's 10.  thanks for the reminder.  :toetap05:  not.  :glare:

 

and I thought 2ds was an obnoxious tween . . .  methinks dudeling will have him beat hands down, no contest :svengo: . . . . .dudelings the kid who would give the best parents in the world a run for their money . . . .  there's a reason 1dd said he needed to be surrounded by adults . . .

[8circles]

Is he getting enough sleep? Exercise? Having a growth spurt? What's his diet like? Has he had any bloodwork done recently? If so, what are his Vit D levels like? You mentioned that he sees a therapist for anxiety issues, and that can certainly contribute to feeling edgy and snappish. Sometimes depression in males can be expressed as anger instead of withdrawal/lethargy. Would it help you to not take it personally if you try to reframe it as a hormonal/biochemical thing? Imagine yourself feeling sleep-deprived, PMSing, stressed out, "hangry" (or on a roller coaster from sugar/carbs) — and with all the self-control of a 12 year old (i.e. very little). 

 

Not that any of those things excuse the behavior, just that it's worth exploring whether any of them may be contributing factors. Plenty of sleep, plenty of protein, plenty of exercise, D3 supplements if needed, plus a lot of empathy, can go a long way in smoothing out the emotional roller coaster of puberty. 

 

Big  :grouphug:  to both you and your son.

 

Sleep? not enough IMO, he would disagree.  Exercise?  yes, enough - but could be more.  Growth Spurt?  Probably.  

 

No bloodwork recently.  I can start the Vit D supplements again - I usually stop in the summer.  

 

Yes, he could be depressed.  (gosh, that's hard to type)

 

I'm sure that at least of couple of these are contributing factors.  Thank you for the reminders.

[1bassoon]

That's an extremely gut-level, grim motivation to keep at it, but for the 11-14yo crowd sometimes this is all we can say. 15-17 is much better and very promising, then 18 is a total trip and a roller coaster ride that you want off, and then finally adulthood comes, along with a real sense that they'll be OK. IME.

 

100% Agree. *Tibbie's Post for My Fridge*!!

 

Heading through it with the LAST 10/11 year old. . . . . .

 

ETA: We REALLY went through this with dd14 when she was 12ish. My mom actually called her on it; she was being a bully, and expected everyone to cater to her needs and desires. She's always been wired this way, but puberty and some family turmoil brought it out big time.

 

She is much happier now, and I hate to say this but one thing that helped was enrolling her in a 2-day a week, intensive co-op. She's too busy to pick on others, and has lots of time around really good kids who are her friends. I've changed from primary director to supporter and encourager, and it's been for the best.

 

:grouphug: Hangeth Thou in There.

[Jean in Newcastle]

This is the age that dh signed ds up for taekwando.  Hard exercise coupled with a discipline that focuses on respect and discipline.  

[Paige]

My DS is 14 and has matured so much in the past year. I think since he was 11/12 a mantra in our house was me saying to him, "What's the number 1 rule?" and his sighing and replying, "Don't be a jerk."

 

I don't think he meant to be rude, but rather he didn't understand yet that sassy and sarcastic talk that plays well on tv comes across as really rude in real life. Many times he would really be confused about why a behavior or phrase was jerky because it came across worse than what he intended. 

 

He's better now but he's still learning the fine line between being cool and being a jerk. 

[8circles]

This is the age that dh signed ds up for taekwando.  Hard exercise coupled with a discipline that focuses on respect and discipline.  

 

Yes, he's been in TKD for 4(?) years now.  He has missed a lot this summer with camps and vacations, but we'll be more regular starting next week.

 

Problem:  He has always LOVED it.  He's really quite good, if I can say that.  Except he earned his black belt this spring and now feels like he's BTDT.  (this is a very well-respected Dojo that doesn't just crank-out black belts)  One of his instructors has been explaining to him how getting your black belt isn't the end, it's the beginning - now he has a solid foundation & can really learn and blossom into a martial artist - or something like that.  So he's just being a very difficult human being right now.  

 

I spoke to him a few months ago about how having such a poor attitude (& being rude to siblings) wasn't appropriate behavior for a black-belt.  His disinterest in continuing TKD started then.  So I don't know if I just made the problem worse or what.

[Melissa in Australia]

110?  ;)

 

dudeling's 10.  thanks for the reminder.  :toetap05:  not.  :glare:

 

and I thought 2ds was an obnoxious tween . . .  methinks dudeling will have him beat hands down, no contest :svengo: . . . . .dudelings the kid who would give the best parents in the world a run for their money . . . .  there's a reason 1dd said he needed to be surrounded by adults . . .

ops!

 I meant 11-13

[Arctic Bunny]

These are great suggestions, I just think we're past it. I will see if I can bring back this technique at some point, though. It isn't dumb at all, we're just too far gone at this point.

I'm sorry. ((Hugs))

[Catherine]

Without reading every response, I'll tell you my story.  I have 3 boys.  My oldest did not verbally abuse or demean his sibs, generally.  He just completely ignored them.  He had no relationship with them to speak of, for the first 18 years of his life.  When he was 17, he went away to another continent for 10 months, as an exchange student.  He came back a changed person, yes, but the break from him, for his brothers, was really key to their development, in the sense that they were spared contact with someone who refused to acknowledge them or treat them like human beings.  

 

So the thaw started when he came home, and that year was a beginning of a relationship for them.  One year later, he moved out and went to college and has only lived at home for short periods of time, the longest, 3 months, since then.  I do things to facilitate their relationship, like setting up a weekly phone call during which we all talk to eldest, and vacationing together when possible.  But I honestly think that only a radical departure of nearly a year allowed them to reset their perceptions of each other.  

[DawnM]

Huh, you all are exhausting me just reading how you gently and quietly deal with it.

 

We just face it head on, "That was not nice and when you can apologize and explain how you could have said that nicely, you can have your electronic device back."  The end.

 

Yup, that is how we roll.

[Tiramisu]

The age is tough, but anxiety and depression can definitely cause this. I've seen behavior like this resolve overnight with the right treatment. Letting it go as long as I did created a very negative dynamic in the family that exacerbated the original problem and harmed relationships. Healing the relationships was really the hard part. In most cases, it's probably a phase and the siblings get over it, but it's not a bad idea to investigate further, perhaps getting another specialist to get a different perspective. 

[Okra]

You have been given much great advice.  Children can be tough and turn out to be wonderful adults, as yours will probably be also.

 

May I give one small suggestion?  It might be good to ask that this thread be taken down eventually.  Computers are not private, and my (older) children have even searched my posts to see what I've written.  In my opinion, you don't want your child reading about the jerk comment.  Children are notorious about taking things the wrong way.

 

Good luck!  

[8circles]

You have been given much great advice. Children can be tough and turn out to be wonderful adults, as yours will probably be also.

 

May I give one small suggestion? It might be good to ask that this thread be taken down eventually. Computers are not private, and my (older) children have even searched my posts to see what I've written. In my opinion, you don't want your child reading about the jerk comment. Children are notorious about taking things the wrong way.

 

Good luck!

Thank you.

 

I'm not worried about it at this point. My children know nothing about this site except that it exists.

[myfunnybunch]

 

This is what I shoot for.  At this point, though, it's just happening SO OFTEN and it ripples down to the other kids and by the time DS12 realizes and snaps out of it, we are in chaos and everyone is grumpy.

 

Again, not an excuse.  You are right, about the mealtimes & physical activity as well.  This thread is helping me find the strength to carry on.

 

You know, I keep thinking about this thread, and your responses. I see much that is encouraging, hon.

 

He can eventually realize what he's doing and snap out of it. He doesn't want to act like that and recognizes it on some level. And you're working really hard to not just write him off as a jerk. You can see he's struggling with this and you want to help. Please don't underestimate the importance of these two things.

 

It might seem more discouraging, because geez!, if he can finally stop, then why doesn't he just stop it before it starts? Yeesh. (The answer is because he's 12 and doesn't yet have the life experience and skills to recognize his own behavior patterns.) But he can eventually stop himself, which means that he has the capacity to develop the tools to stop it sooner and sooner and eventually redirect that negative energy into something more healthy. It's going to be hard work for both of you, but he's going to turn out to be a decent human being. :grouphug:

 

I came up with some coping strategies and some possible triggers for my guys' irritability and unkindness, so that I'd have some suggestions to offer. Then I sat down with my older boys individually and said, hey, dude, let's figure this out together. Recognizing triggers can help me to re-direct the behavior, and having some agreed upon coping strategies in place beforehand means that we're not problem-solving when things are heated. (I also talked with the youngest about coping strategies and how to advocate for himself without escalating.)

 

For my 14 y.o., triggers are often about position and trying to be the top dog, and some jealousy of his younger brother getting to still act childish and being the "baby" of the family; for my 12 y.o., it's more anxiety-related and perfectionism. Coping strategies for both boys usually involve quiet, food, shower, sleep, and exercise. For the older, finding positive ways to be a leader with his brothers also helps.  But basically, if you cannot treat the people around you with decency and respect, you need to take a break to cool off. It's not a punishment, just an acknowledgement that their coping skills need some shoring up. Time alone or a nap or a shower work wonders, plus the shower has the added bonus of also dealing with pre-teen don't wanna wash. :p I model taking a break myself--"Oops. I'm sorry, guys, I am really irritable right now. I think I'm going to go read on my bed for 20 minutes, then I'll be ready to be a decent human being again."

 

And I know it might sound corny, but I still try to catch them being good. Just a minute ago, my 12 and 10 y.o.'s were wrestling on the couch. I can't get away with, "Wow, you're being so nice to your brother! Good job!" but I can laugh and say, "You guys are cracking me up. You goofballs," and maybe join in myself or offer cookies to redirect before it turns into someone getting hurt or upset. They've gotten my positive attention in a natural way. (ETA: Today, I am really glad I didn't join in, because they were laughing about the "awful stench." Good thing they made cookies last night!)

 

One more quick note, because you've mentioned anxiety, which is why I was thinking about this thread so much last night. My middle boy struggles with mild anxiety. The higher his anxiety levels, the more difficult it is for him to be patient with the people around him. Addressing the anxiety--exercise, good food, time alone but not too much, relaxing time with me, more exercise 'cause he needs lots, time with friends....the more balanced he is, the more kind he is. And then I try to offer him some grace because it's really hard to stay balanced when you're riding the puberty hormone roller coaster.

 

:grouphug: You've got this. You really do. They don't come to us with it all figured out, which is why they have parents in the first place. :)