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Your views on homosexuality - no arguing please! - adjusted wording


rose
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What is your opinion of homosexuality?  

389 members have voted

  1. 1. What is your opinion of homosexuality?

    • I'm not a Chrisitan and I believe that homosexual sex is perfectly fine
      125
    • I'm not a Christian but I don't think that homosexual sex is perfectly fine.
      6
    • I'm a Christian and I believe that homosexual sex is not sinful.
      81
    • I'm a Christian and I believe that homosexual sex is sinful.
      177


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Well the poll results are answering this very well, and it would seem, that the majority of people who hang out on this forum are conservative Christians.They just aren't the ones speaking the most and the loudest. Many of us tend to try to follow the scriptures which instruct us not to argue with those who refuse to listen so we hush up and let others have the last word. It does not mean we give in or give up but that we are choosing to obey our Lord. We know that it is not our job to convince the masses-simply to share the gospel and serve our Lord by living quietly and doing the work that God has given us. If you read so many of the more controversial threads you will see plenty of gracious Christians who gently post their views and then quietly back out of the discussion.

 

First, please don't pretend the conservative Christians on this site have been silent on the matter.  And if conservative Christians truly behaved as you describe, they would not spend so much time and money trying to force their religious beliefs upon others via legislation.

 

Regarding the bolded, I am not sure how you managed to gather that from the poll results.  Based on the poll results, those holding the conservative Christian viewpoint on this topic do not make up the majority of the board.

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First, please don't pretend the conservative Christians on this site have been silent on the matter.  And if conservative Christians truly behaved as you describe, they would not spend so much time and money trying to force their religious beliefs upon others via legislation.

 

Regarding the bolded, I am not sure how you managed to gather that from the poll results.  Based on the poll results, those holding the conservative Christian viewpoint on this topic do not make up the majority of the board.

 

I didn't mean to pretend that anyone had been silent on this matter and I don't think anything in my post infers that. I also did not say that all conservative Christians behave as I described. If you go back and reread my post you'll see that I was referring to this particular board.

 

You are right on the second point. The poll does not show that the majority of us are conservative Christians. What I should have said is that the poll shows that there is a large percentage of conservative Christians on this board.

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So was Paul a prophet?  Do Christians believe God spoke through him?  This is an honest question.

 

Yes, I believe all Scripture to be inspired, and I believe that God spoke through Paul.  I accept Paul's testimony as truth:

 

"For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ." Galatians 1:11-12

 

"If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the LordĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s commandment." 1 Corinthians 14:37

 

"Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more. For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you. For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification. So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you." 1 Thessalonians 4:1-8

 

What I find facinating is how much that Paul says is tiptoed around or outright ignored by the same people who point to what he said about homosexuals. Paul says a lot of things.

 

-The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

 

-But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is the same as having her head shaved.

 

-I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

 

-I also want women to dress simply. They should wear clothes that are right and proper. They shouldn't braid their hair. They shouldn't wear gold or pearls. They shouldn't spend too much on clothes.

 

I know a lot of people opposed to homosexuality on Biblical grounds who walk bareheaded, wear jewels, spend a lot of money on clothes, speak in their churches etc.

 

:iagree:

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Well the poll results are answering this very well, and it would seem, that the majority of people who hang out on this forum are conservative Christians.They just aren't the ones speaking the most and the loudest.

 

I suspect that's because the sentiments are losing respect in society, and when the argument finally gets down to the bare bones (well-being we can observe and experience and know v. well being we can imagine and hope to have but can never be confirmed until after death), it's loosing ground. On another forum I read a comment from someone who felt like she had to hide her opinions about homosexuality being a sin in a closet, lest she face negativity (from not agreeing to downright hostility) for her homophobia. I was stunned. The irony had not only escaped her, the reality had not only apparently never really been introduced, or certainly never genuinely considered by her, but she actually felt the victim. And boy did she get support from her fellow homophobes. I think in a community like this, that would never be left unchallenged. I think that's why people are silent - they are in "mixed company," not among other homophobes. What do you think? 

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One need not give up intimacy just by giving up sexual relations. There are plenty of people who have never married or had sex but, who still have intimate relationships with others. Many men don't know how to have an intimate relationship aside from sex. My only point is that sex does not equal relational intimacy or vice versa.

 

Yet for many people, sex is a part of that intimacy. When you (rhetorical) tell people that they should be happy with intimacy without sex or without the option of marriage (also seen as an intimate pact), it comes off sounding a bit hypocritical since most heterosexual marriages enjoy sex as part of their relationship. 

 

Then why the marriage seminars to help couples regain the spark in their marriage -sex being part of that? Shouldn't you (again rhetorical) just be telling them it's okay to have intimacy without sex, that you should be happy that way, because that's what we're telling same-sex couples. 

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I didn't mean to pretend that anyone had been silent on this matter and I don't think anything in my post infers that. I also did not say that all conservative Christians behave as I described. If you go back and reread my post you'll see that I was referring to this particular board.

 

You are right on the second point. The poll does not show that the majority of us are conservative Christians. What I should have said is that the poll shows that there is a large percentage of conservative Christians on this board.

 

All I can say is that I have lurked on this board since it was the old format without registered members, and the conservative Christians only became quieter when they became out numbered.

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I suspect that's because the sentiments are losing respect in society, and when the argument finally gets down to the bare bones (well-being we can observe and experience and know v. well being we can imagine and hope to have but can never be confirmed until after death), it's loosing ground. On another forum I read a comment from someone who felt like she had to hide her opinions about homosexuality being a sin in a closet, lest she face negativity (from not agreeing to downright hostility) for her homophobia. I was stunned. The irony had not only escaped her, the reality had not only apparently never really been introduced, or certainly never genuinely considered by her, but she actually felt the victim. And boy did she get support from her fellow homophobes. I think in a community like this, that would never be left unchallenged. I think that's why people are silent - they are in "mixed company," not among other homophobes. What do you think? 

Are you suggesting that all people who believe homosexual relations to be a sin are homophobes?

 

Actually, I don't think conservative Christians are keeping silent because they are in "mixed company". I think the opposing people scream the loudest and, therefore are heard more. This is true here as well as in the big picture. The people consistently voted down the right to gay marriage. Then a handful of self-important judges decided it was their job to make the decision for the American population. I am not trying to get into a debate about whether or not gay marriage should be legal. I'm still not sure how I feel about the government deciding who can and can't get married. However, it is clear that a minority made a decision that went against the majority in what is supposed to be a government of the people, by the people, and for the people.

 

 

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Yet for many people, sex is a part of that intimacy. When you (rhetorical) tell people that they should be happy with intimacy without sex or without the option of marriage (also seen as an intimate pact), it comes off sounding a bit hypocritical since most heterosexual marriages enjoy sex as part of their relationship. 

 

Then why the marriage seminars to help couples regain the spark in their marriage -sex being part of that? Shouldn't you (again rhetorical) just be telling them it's okay to have intimacy without sex, that you should be happy that way, because that's what we're telling same-sex couples. 

I don't see where I ever said that anyone should be happy with intimacy without sex. I simply stated that intimacy doesn't equal sex and vice versa. That was my only point.

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I am certainly not out to prove anyone here wrong or argue concerning personal beliefs. I am thankful that we all live in a free country where we are entitled to our beliefs, opinions, and free speech to express them. I have done that here and answered the OP's questions. I have found it interesting and enlightening to read others' opinions as well. :-)

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I don't like the wording and choices.

 

I am a former Christian who believes now and did as a Christian of 40 years that being homosexual is ok. It's a non issue; like being heterosexual.

 

You know what? I HATE the poll.

 

Really. Reducing romance, connection, adult holistic living to sex is absurd at best, and insulting at worst. Frankly, it belies a very predictable and scripted viewpoint - defining homosexuality by the actual sex act. Homosexuality is no more defined by sex than heterosexuality (or asexuality or bi or pan........)

 

It's a regressive poll.

:iagree:   How was this poll not going to start a big divisive fight?  How is it in any way respectful?  Quite frankly no consenting adult's sex life is any of my business.  Or yours.

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Are you suggesting that all people who believe homosexual relations to be a sin are homophobes?

 

Actually, I don't think conservative Christians are keeping silent because they are in "mixed company". I think the opposing people scream the loudest and, therefore are heard more. This is true here as well as in the big picture. The people consistently voted down the right to gay marriage. Then a handful of self-important judges decided it was their job to make the decision for the American population. I am not trying to get into a debate about whether or not gay marriage should be legal. I'm still not sure how I feel about the government deciding who can and can't get married. However, it is clear that a minority made a decision that went against the majority in what is supposed to be a government of the people, by the people, and for the people.

If you personally feel behaviors are against your religion and choose not to engage, no, I don't find that to be homophobic. If you take your personal religious beliefs and attempt to use them against other people, either by passing laws limiting their rights or picketing their homes or lecturing them on their wrongness, yes, I do think that's homophobic. Just the same as if you took your personal beliefs and used them against a certain race or another religion, I would find you similarly bigoted.

 

Don't want to be Jewish? Great. Don't be Jewish. Not bigoted. Don't want to be Jewish and think Jews shouldn't live near you or adopt children or be able to shop in your store or you tell each one you meet how wrong he is and how he's eternally damned to hell? You're bigoted.

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If you personally feel behaviors are against your religion and choose not to engage, no, I don't find that to be homophobic. If you take your personal religious beliefs and attempt to use them against other people, either by passing laws limiting their rights or picketing their homes or lecturing them on their wrongness, yes, I do think that's homophobic. Just the same as if you took your personal beliefs and used them against a certain race or another religion, I would find you similarly bigoted.

 

Don't want to be Jewish? Great. Don't be Jewish. Not bigoted. Don't want to be Jewish and think Jews shouldn't live near you or adopt children or be able to shop in your store or you tell each one you meet how wrong he is and how he's eternally damned to hell? You're bigoted.

 

Right, but Albeto seemed to be lumping us all into the same category. No where have I posted that I have done any of the above nor that I believe others should do any of the above. I don't want to pass laws limiting the rights of others but I am for upholding the laws already in existence if the majority of Americans vote to do so. Again this is supposed to be a democracy.

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I don't want to pass laws limiting the rights of others but I am for upholding the laws already in existence if the majority of Americans vote to do so.

 

Parts of the US would still be racially segregated if this was the case.

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Are you suggesting that all people who believe homosexual relations to be a sin are homophobes?

 

albeto may or may not be suggesting it, but I'll say outright that there is a distinct correlation between the two things. That is to say, once you state you think "homosexual relations" are a sin, it's not exactly going to surprise me if you turn out to be a big ol' homophobe. And in my experience, the more people with the former opinion try to "prove" they're not homophobes, the more and more blatant it becomes that, in fact, they are ragingly prejudiced against gays.

 

I don't want to pass laws limiting the rights of others but I am for upholding the laws already in existence if the majority of Americans vote to do so. Again this is supposed to be a democracy.

 

It is not, and you should have learned that in high school civics.

 

America's government is a constitutional republic. That means that we strive not to simply pass laws because that's what the majority wants. If we did that, we would frequently trample on the rights of the minority. A cursory study of history will bring many examples to mind. You might not care too much when this process gets your group special privileges, but it's not very good for the folks who are on the losing end of the Tyranny of the Majority.

 

Edit: Darn, ninja'd by okbud. To clarify, "constitutional" means our laws have to follow rules - in this case, the rules laid out in the Constitution in order to protect our rights - and "republic" means that we do not directly vote on the laws ourselves, but appoint representatives to do that for us. (We also have an interesting separation of powers dealio going on, where the executive, administrative, and judicial branches of government are quite different and do different things, but I'm sure you know that.)

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Right, but Albeto seemed to be lumping us all into the same category. No where have I posted that I have done any of the above nor that I believe others should do any of the above. I don't want to pass laws limiting the rights of others but I am for upholding the laws already in existence if the majority of Americans vote to do so. Again this is supposed to be a democracy.

Read another way, you seem to be saying that discriminatory laws are potentially ok if they are already on the books and popular with a majority of the voters.

 

The reason we have the courts is to apply the law equally and to protect the minority from the majority. It is for instance, largely via the court system and legislatures that the laws changed to allow for homeschooling. The majority of voters in many areas would likely have been "just send those kids to school alright already." Majority rule sounds all good but then when they pass a law that infringes on the minority opinion YOU hold, you have to rethink it.

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How was this poll not going to start a big divisive fight?  How is it in any way respectful?  Quite frankly no consenting adult's sex life is any of my business.  Or yours.

 
Rose M. was very clear about her motivation for starting the thread:
 

The fact that I was asking at all came about because I was simply surprised by how many Christians didn't consider it sinful in the other thread. It's definitely not an obsession of mine. I consider myself apolitical. The destruction of lives through war (even US led wars) and abortion chokes me up a whole lot more than this issue.

 

I was a little surprised by how many Christians on the boards are accepting of homosexuality. Maybe I didn't realize how many liberal people were on here. Rather than starting a raging debate lets just see what our demographics say. Do you think that we can accomplish this without getting crabby? I don't want to argue here I just want to see where you all stand. Feel free to answer anonymously. 

 

We discuss religious, moral, and philosophical issues all the time on this board. I think Rose was genuinely curious, and I don't think she's said anything disrespectful. She asked that people not argue and went out of her way to change her wording when people were inadvertently offended. I honestly don't see anything wrong with her asking the question.

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Not everyone who thinks it is wrong has any interest in keeping or changing laws.  But what I see is more than just a desire by some to protect the rights of homosexuals.  I see a desire of some to make everyone accept that it is not wrong.  

 

What it boils down to is whose standards we intend to follow.  For those who don't believe in God I guess it is easy to say homosexuality is fine.  For those who do believe in God and the Bible, even if you have a loved one who is practicing homosexuality, or you yourself are, or anyone you love has those desires...it still doesn't change the standard God has set.  

 

Is it easy to follow God's laws and standards all of the time?  Not for me.  I don't go around advertising what is difficult for me and I don't quiz people on what is difficult for them.  However, when I am asked how I believe...I will say.  And having that belief doesn't make me hate anyone.  

 

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It is not, and you should have learned that in high school civics.

 

America's government is a constitutional republic. That means that we strive not to simply pass laws because that's what the majority wants. If we did that, we would frequently trample on the rights of the minority. A cursory study of history will bring many examples to mind. You might not care too much when this process gets your group special privileges, but it's not very good for the folks who are on the losing end of the Tyranny of the Majority.

 

Edit: Darn, ninja'd by okbud. To clarify, "constitutional" means our laws have to follow rules - in this case, the rules laid out in the Constitution in order to protect our rights - and "republic" means that we do not directly vote on the laws ourselves, but appoint representatives to do that for us. (We also have an interesting separation of powers dealio going on, where the executive, administrative, and judicial branches of government are quite different and do different things, but I'm sure you know that.)

 

Yes, and I  hope the U.S. homeschoolers on this board are not teaching their children that the U.S. is a democracy..I hope they're correctly teaching civics (those whose children have reached the appropriate age of course). 

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I think homosexual sex is "perfectly fine", and it doesn't really bother me that people with certain belief systems consider it "sinful".

 

There are all sorts of sins and forbidden activities in all sorts of religions and cults. So what? It's not like any of us go around surveying the lot of them in order to find out how the Ultimately Good Person should behave. Certain groups and belief systems can be quite culturally influential, but it's still up to each individual to either accept or challenge these systems of belief. There are a lot of deities being worshipped all over the world. We can choose whether or not to follow their alleged instructions.

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I think holding a position that sex between same-gendered people is a sin is inherently homophobic, not matter how much you dress it up with 'love' and 'I have gay friends'. 

 

I think people should own it.

 

Just come out and say it - 'no, I don't think gay people are as deserving of access to  marriage as straight people.' Or 'I think their sexual relationships are inferior to my own.'

 

Every argument I have heard against SSM is based on fear. 

 

 

This is an example of what I mentioned in the post above.  I think it is a sin and I don't think I am trying to dress anything up.  I do own my belief about it.  And I have no fear about it.  But maybe you only meant fear about SSM because that is a political issue.  

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Not everyone who thinks it is wrong has any interest in keeping or changing laws.  But what I see is more than just a desire by some to protect the rights of homosexuals.  I see a desire of some to make everyone accept that it is not wrong.  

 

What it boils down to is whose standards we intend to follow.  For those who don't believe in God I guess it is easy to say homosexuality is fine.  For those who do believe in God and the Bible, even if you have a loved one who is practicing homosexuality, or you yourself are, or anyone you love has those desires...it still doesn't change the standard God has set.  

 

Is it easy to follow God's laws and standards all of the time?  Not for me.  I don't go around advertising what is difficult for me and I don't quiz people on what is difficult for them.  However, when I am asked how I believe...I will say.  And having that belief doesn't make me hate anyone.  

that about sums it up.

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Thinking it is a sin is inherently homophobic, is my point.

 

I think a lot of people are in denial about their internalised homophobia, just like they are about their racism, their misogyny and their classism.

 

 

We will just have to disagree.  I assure you I  feel no fear about the subject.  

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Scarlett, you know better. There are Christians commenting on this very thread, who believe in the Bible and God just as much as you do, who disagree with your interpretation of the Bible on the subject of homosexuality.

 

Yes I know that.  I am saying I disagree. I actually see few things as clear in the Bible as I do this standard. 

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Yes I know that.  I am saying I disagree. I actually see few things as clear in the Bible as I do this standard. 

 

But you didn't phrase it as "People who agree with me". You outright said that anybody who disagrees with you is not a Christian, even if they think they are. I'm fairly certain that, as a Christian, you are not supposed to make that call. Pretty sure that's actually in the NT somewhere, something Jesus definitely said.

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But you didn't phrase it as "People who agree with me". You outright said that anybody who disagrees with you is not a Christian, even if they think they are. I'm fairly certain that, as a Christian, you are not supposed to make that call. Pretty sure that's actually in the NT somewhere, something Jesus definitely said.

 

 

No, I did not.  In fact, I didn't even use the word Christian or Christianity.  I talked about following the standards of the Bible and of God.  People can call themselves whatever they want.  It doesn't change what the Bible says and it doesn't change God's standard.  And of course that is my opinion.  Clearly not all people who self identify as Christians agree with my opinion.  

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You know what I dislike? The term Homophobia. I believe homosexuality is a sin. I also believe having sex with someone before marriage is a sin. I have friends who are gay and I have friends who have sex with each other before marriage. 

 

phobia is a fear. I am not afraid of homosexuals, not in the least. My best friends roommate is gay, and we've been on great terms for many years. It doesn't mean I will be voting 'yes' in a referendum for gay marriage. 

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No, I don't believe Paul was writing what he wrote to manipulate people for his own gain. He was in prison and knew he would die there when he wrote some of his letters. I think he was sincere.

 

Now whether the churches over the years have used his words to manipulate for insincere purposes, that's a different question. Of course that has happened. But we can cut through that.

 

How much to believe Paul's words is a matter of personal faith. Personally I do not believe his words were direct from God, but I do believe he understood a lot of things and had some really good ideas. I feel the same way about the Buddha and a number of other people who don't/didn't claim to be God. Just because I don't believe that is the direct word of God does not mean I don't think any of his words matter. He was a really smart guy and I believe his words are valuable, but I consider them the words of a man. I can apply my own conscience and agree or disagree with his points.

 

However, I do believe they need to be put into historical context. A lot of the rules about women (not just in Christianity of course) were a reflection of the times. A woman who acted a certain way would not be respected by people outside the group. Today the times are different. If Paul were writing letters today, he would probably not be talking about women's hair or keeping them quiet in public. His writings, taken as a whole, indicate a great deal of respect for women he worked with.

 

I don't think his comments about homosexuals are on the same level as those about how women should be in public. I don't think the latter was a spiritual issue to him, it was more about appearances. The former was a belief, apparently spiritual since he was writing about spiritual matters. I don't have to agree with him, though.

That seems like a random and arbitrary distinction; that the verses about homosexuality were "different" but his misogyny was cultural.

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Thinking it is a sin is inherently homophobic, is my point.

 

I think a lot of people are in denial about their internalised homophobia, just like they are about their racism, their misogyny and their classism.

Thinking orientation or the (mutual, adult) expression of it is sin is not only "homophobia," it is hate.

 

To condemn based on such a a foundational part of their being (orientation) is truly the antithesis of the teachings of the Jesus I knew.

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phobia is a fear. I am not afraid of homosexuals, not in the least. My best friends roommate is gay, and we've been on great terms for many years. It doesn't mean I will be voting 'yes' in a referendum for gay marriage.

 

Phobia can mean "a fear", however, that is not the only definition of that term. Hydrophobic materials are not "afraid" of water, they simply repel it. Hydrophobic animals are not afraid of water either, they are rabid. Let's not use the etymological fallacy, shall we?

 

 It doesn't change what the Bible says and it doesn't change God's standard.

 

Pretty sure God didn't designate you the arbiter of God's standard either. All I'm saying is, sin of pride, much?

 

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I think holding a position that sex between same-gendered people is a sin is inherently homophobic, not matter how much you dress it up with 'love' and 'I have gay friends'.

 

I think people should own it.

 

Just come out and say it - 'no, I don't think gay people are as deserving of access to marriage as straight people.' Or 'I think their sexual relationships are inferior to my own.'

 

Every argument I have heard against SSM is based on fear.

I'm thinking of (as one example, some) Catholics who believe *anything* outside of procreative sex between man and woman married in the Catholic Church is "sinful" to their belief system. If a person wants to govern her own behavior according to those rules without imposing them on others because she feels it is the right path for her, I don't find it homophobic. But if that person rails about the non-church-sanctioned sexual behavior of others more so in homosexuals than heterosexuals, that would (in my mind) be homophobic.

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Phobia can mean "a fear", however, that is not the only definition of that term. Hydrophobic materials are not "afraid" of water, they simply repel it. Hydrophobic animals are not afraid of water either, they are rabid. Let's not use the etymological fallacy, shall we?

 

 

Pretty sure God didn't designate you the arbiter of God's standard either. All I'm saying is, sin of pride, much?

I have no idea what you are trying to say. When I read the Bible I read very clearly that practicing homosexuality is wrong. I assume you don't see it that way. We disagree. The difference is you are trying to shame me into changing my mind. I have no desire to force you to believe like I do.
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I have no idea what you are trying to say. When I read the Bible I read very clearly that practicing homosexuality is wrong. I assume you don't see it that way. We disagree. The difference is you are trying to shame me into changing my mind. I have no desire to force you to believe like I do.

Actually, the essence of Christianity in practice is *exactly* to force people to believe as you do.

 

That IS why people actively oppose ssm.

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I have no idea what you are trying to say. When I read the Bible I read very clearly that practicing homosexuality is wrong. I assume you don't see it that way. We disagree. The difference is you are trying to shame me into changing my mind. I have no desire to force you to believe like I do.

 

I don't care what you believe, but if you VOTE for legislators who are against same sex marriage, then that is actively hurting other people, people I care about.  Whether you feel shamed for doing so or not is not really relevant.

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I don't care what you believe, but if you VOTE for legislators who are against same sex marriage, then that is actively hurting other people, people I care about. Whether you feel shamed for doing so or not is not really relevant.

I am politically neutral.

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Right, but Albeto seemed to be lumping us all into the same category. No where have I posted that I have done any of the above nor that I believe others should do any of the above. I don't want to pass laws limiting the rights of others but I am for upholding the laws already in existence if the majority of Americans vote to do so. Again this is supposed to be a democracy.

 

At the time of the Supreme Court decision, a majority of Americans supported same sex marriage. It took 30 years after the court decision upholding the right to interracial marriages for a majority of Americans to support such marriages. It's easy to say that the majority should vote on the rights of a minority when you are in the majority.

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Are you suggesting that all people who believe homosexual relations to be a sin are homophobes?

 

Actually, I don't think conservative Christians are keeping silent because they are in "mixed company". I think the opposing people scream the loudest and, therefore are heard more. This is true here as well as in the big picture. The people consistently voted down the right to gay marriage. Then a handful of self-important judges decided it was their job to make the decision for the American population. I am not trying to get into a debate about whether or not gay marriage should be legal. I'm still not sure how I feel about the government deciding who can and can't get married. However, it is clear that a minority made a decision that went against the majority in what is supposed to be a government of the people, by the people, and for the people.

 

Ever hear of the US Constitution; in particular the 14th Amendment?

 

Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

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That seems like a random and arbitrary distinction; that the verses about homosexuality were "different" but his misogyny was cultural.

 

I don't agree that it was "misogyny."

 

You are entitled to your opinion.

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Not everyone who thinks it is wrong has any interest in keeping or changing laws.  But what I see is more than just a desire by some to protect the rights of homosexuals.  I see a desire of some to make everyone accept that it is not wrong.  

 

What it boils down to is whose standards we intend to follow.  For those who don't believe in God I guess it is easy to say homosexuality is fine.  For those who do believe in God and the Bible, even if you have a loved one who is practicing homosexuality, or you yourself are, or anyone you love has those desires...it still doesn't change the standard God has set.  

 

Is it easy to follow God's laws and standards all of the time?  Not for me.  I don't go around advertising what is difficult for me and I don't quiz people on what is difficult for them.  However, when I am asked how I believe...I will say.  And having that belief doesn't make me hate anyone.  

 

Your God's rules don't have anything to do with me, or with the creation of laws of this country.  If you don't want to get gay-married because you think your God doesn't like it, then don't.  It's as simple as that. 

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We really do need a new word for this entire class of people who hate the LGBTQ community, because too many people are like, "I'm not homophobic, I'm not scared of gays."

 

Miso- refers to hate, and eros is sexual, passionate love, so maybe some combination of the two? Misoeros? Miseros? Someone who knows some Greek help me out here.

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Not everyone who thinks it is wrong has any interest in keeping or changing laws.  But what I see is more than just a desire by some to protect the rights of homosexuals.  I see a desire of some to make everyone accept that it is not wrong.  

 

What it boils down to is whose standards we intend to follow.  For those who don't believe in God I guess it is easy to say homosexuality is fine.  For those who do believe in God and the Bible, even if you have a loved one who is practicing homosexuality, or you yourself are, or anyone you love has those desires...it still doesn't change the standard God has set.  

 

Is it easy to follow God's laws and standards all of the time?  Not for me.  I don't go around advertising what is difficult for me and I don't quiz people on what is difficult for them.  However, when I am asked how I believe...I will say.  And having that belief doesn't make me hate anyone.  

 

For some of us it is about more than protecting the rights of homosexuals but it isn't about making others be accepting. It's about educating you on how your words and actions can hurt others, especially the young. I don't need you to accept my teen dd but I need you to keep your negative opinions about who she is to yourself when around her (or me). If you don't, I will speak up.  I don't need you to accept who she is, but I do need you to not vote against her right to be in a legal relationship and have a family. (I know you don't vote Scarlett, but I'm putting this out as a general you to those who do.) So, others don't have to fully accept who she is but I expect them to be kind and to keep their mouths shut around her if they can't.

 

FTR, we're a Christian family as well. My dd has done her own extensive research into what the Bible, and especially Jesus, actually says about same sex relationships. We've come to different conclusion than you but it still doesn't ease the hurt she feels from other Christians who say hurtful, horrible things about her orientation.

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Are you suggesting that all people who believe homosexual relations to be a sin are homophobes?

The people consistently voted down the right to gay marriage. Then a handful of self-important judges decided it was their job to make the decision for the American population. I am not trying to get into a debate about whether or not gay marriage should be legal. I'm still not sure how I feel about the government deciding who can and can't get married. However, it is clear that a minority made a decision that went against the majority in what is supposed to be a government of the people, by the people, and for the people.

It's a little more complicated than that.

 

Prior to Obergefell v. Hodges, 17 states had legalized gay marriage over 11 years by state action, taken by the elected representatives of the people in state assemblies and legislatures. The last 4 state wide elections on the matter had gone to the pro-equal marriage camp, including a referendum in my state to uphold the action of our legislature.

 

21 additional states had legalized gay marriage due to federal court rulings.

 

When SCOTUS took up the matter of gay marriage two years ago, in a case regarding DOMA in US vs. Windsor, and in refusing to hear an appeal to gay marriage laws from California, they ruled narrowly to avoid wide action in the absense of a broader national consensus. They seemed to indicate that as a judicial and electoral consensus built, they would be favorable to broader action.

 

This was not some random unimportant group of 5 people either- this was a majority of the Supreme Court of the United States, nominated by several Presidents of different parties. We have a SCOTUS for a reason. It is their job to hear matters like this and make rulings which are consistent with the constitution even if not universally popular.

 

The majority of Americans support legal gay marriage.

 

The VAST majority of Americans under 50 support legal gay marriage.

 

Taken as a whole, roughly 1/2 of Christians support legal gay marriage.

 

Further, when the equal rights of a group are infringed upon, justice does not rest with the will of the majority. But in this case, the majority is clearly no longer on the side of discrimination in the marriage laws based on the genders of the couple. One can not pretend this is a small minority of justices enforcing their will on the whole.

 

I've read and reread all of the opinions released in the above cases. Both sides make some compelling arguments. The core truth remains though that the 14th amendment doesn't allow us to rationalize into treating some families to more or less protections under the law.

 

With your understanding of democracy as presenting in this thread Seeking, we'd still have legalized segregation. Because after all, it was the majority will of the people in the affected states.

 

ETA- my brother was with his now husband for the better part of 7 years and 2 children before they married, in a church, the first day it was legal our state. I was reframing and arranging some family pictures this weekend. I have lovely pictures of my mother at my wedding, including this amazing one of her laughing with my husband which is one of the first things you see when coming in my front door. I have no pictures of my mother at my brother's wedding. She died 3 years before the law changed. What it would have meant to her to be at their wedding. What it would mean for them to have pictures of her at their wedding. What it would mean to my nieces to have pictures of their grandmother at their parent's actual wedding. It just called the inequity into sharper focus for me.

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We really do need a new word for this entire class of people who hate the LGBTQ community, because too many people are like, "I'm not homophobic, I'm not scared of gays."

 

Miso- refers to hate, and eros is sexual, passionate love, so maybe some combination of the two? Misoeros? Miseros? Someone who knows some Greek help me out here.

 

Dh says the word you're looking for is bigot.

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Are you suggesting that all people who believe homosexual relations to be a sin are homophobes?

 

Actually, I don't think conservative Christians are keeping silent because they are in "mixed company". I think the opposing people scream the loudest and, therefore are heard more. This is true here as well as in the big picture. The people consistently voted down the right to gay marriage. Then a handful of self-important judges decided it was their job to make the decision for the American population. I am not trying to get into a debate about whether or not gay marriage should be legal. I'm still not sure how I feel about the government deciding who can and can't get married. However, it is clear that a minority made a decision that went against the majority in what is supposed to be a government of the people, by the people, and for the people.

 

I'm not ignoring you, it may take some time before I have the opportunity to answer this appropriately. 

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