Jump to content

Menu

Little to go on. Evaluating church program.


WinsomeCreek
 Share

Recommended Posts

How would you see this situation:

 

There's an expensive church based character program. The point is to support and develop good character. Kids, tweens to mid teens, are playing cards in the hall when one of the teens in the program uses the f word. This teen has been in the program for years and has a family heavily involved. A younger kid not in the program tells him to watch his language, but teen retorts that the game is for 13 and up (implying that language is ok and kids should leave).

 

Small issue, but how much of a red flag is it that this program is not so good for character development?

 

If the program looks amazing on paper, would this be enough to make you walk away?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would say you need more to go on.  One teen does not make or break a program.  It could be a bad day.  Just because a family is "heavily involved" may mean little to an individual teen.    One example is Franklin Graham.  If there was a godly set of parents, he had them.  He had his rebellious years.  He now leads the ministry, but for years he was called a prodigal.  You can pour everything into a child but they can still walk away.

 

So don't throw away a whole program based on one instance with one teen.

 

 

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No. Building character often takes years of steady influence. A church program, even a good one, will usually not make huge changes. Different kids react to different influences anyway, and what might touch one kid would not affect another much. If the program looks good on paper, it probably is fine.

 

If changing behavior was easily done by a church program, the mental health business would be out of work. Just because one kid is not acting kindly doesn't mean it is a failure-I think it just means you need to adjust your expectations about what these programs can accomplish.

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would say that trust in a character "program" to produce good character is misplaced trust.  Isn't it endurance (and life experiences and modeling by people in your life) that produces character?

 

Second, kids swear for all sorts of reasons, not the least of which is that many times the adults in their lives do.  Yes, even though they go to church where they hold it in.  lol  Maybe the kid gives in to peer pressure at school and has friends who curse like sailors.  I'd be more annoyed with the meanness towards a younger kid.  But a program can't teach that, not in and of itself.  Teens don't want to be *programmed* and heavily involved parents may translate into too MUCH involvement.  I don't know the whole situation, obviously, just throwing these things out there.

 

If my church bought an expensive character program before they tried having adults and teen leaders investing in the kids actual LIVES first, yeah, I'd be disappointed.  I expect my church to teach the Word of God first and foremost, so if character programs are replacing that, I'd also be disappointed.

  • Like 11
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hate character education programs.  People get a notion that they can fix character issues by using a special curriculum, but character takes years of social interaction to develop, and I seriously doubt there is any curriculum that can make up for a lack of proper socialization by family/society. 

  • Like 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

How would you see this situation:

 

There's an expensive church based character program. The point is to support and develop good character. Kids, tweens to mid teens, are playing cards in the hall when one of the teens in the program uses the f word. This teen has been in the program for years and has a family heavily involved. A younger kid not in the program tells him to watch his language, but teen retorts that the game is for 13 and up (implying that language is ok and kids should leave).

 

Small issue, but how much of a red flag is it that this program is not so good for character development?

 

If the program looks amazing on paper, would this be enough to make you walk away?

 

Let me guess, the 13 is your kid, and they are your oldest?  

Obviously, the teen should not have been swearing while attending a church program.

Obviously, the teen should not have been rude to the tween.

 

A couple questions - 

Were the teens in the hall specifically because they wanted to play a game not suitable for the entire group?  That is, were they trying to create a teen space so that they could play a more "adult" game without tweens there?  Was the tween intruding on the teen space - that is, had he been gently asked to leave them alone?  Was the swearing an actual part of the game (rather than a casual remark)?  There are board/card games that are simply not suitable for tweens, whether for swearing or for other content - are the teens allowed to play such games in the context of this program?  Why were the teens "hanging out" rather than doing more formal programming?  Is that part of what the  program offers?  If so, are there rules about what is and is not OK for the kids to be doing?  Are there rules that apply to language?  Where were the adults, and what were they doing? Is this a fairly new program, that has yet to encounter teen/tween social mixing and the problems that can arise?

 

To be honest, swearing is probably the least of what tweens have observed teens to be doing, from time immemorial.  Nonetheless, the teens have a responsibility to be respectful to the tweens, and that includes watching their language.  

 

With the tween, I would use this as a learning experience - hopefully one they will remember the lessons when they themselves reach the teen years.  Sometimes, it can be very useful for tweens to be able to observe teens making bad choices, and to discuss them with parents.  Questions around why this teen might have chosen to swear, how they treated the tween, and so on can be discussed - without condemning the teen as a bad person, but rather regarding them as an example of a person who has made some bad choices, and what the consequences of those choices might be now and down the line.  

 

ETA:  It's probably also a good time to have a conversation about how to behave when you observe someone else making bad choices.  There are some times when it's very appropriate to call someone out on their behavior or speech right then and there, and times when it's better to handle it some other way - deciding to avoid the person, reporting it to an adult, etc.  This particular situation could have been handled a number of ways, with a variety of possible consequences.  In some contexts (not this one) calling someone on their speech can be dangerous; other times, it's very appropriate.  (To be honest, character education programs are often a bit naive in how they guide children to address situations they may encounter.  One of my kids was appalled when such a program encouraged the naive suburban teen girls to give food or money to homeless people they encountered on city streets - my kid had enough experience with the often-mentally-ill homeless in urban centers to know that safety is a question young girls need to seriously consider in such encounters, something the idealistic program failed to address.)

 

I might also have a little chat with the program leaders, and to ask about their expectations for teen behavior and how that is enforced, and what I might expect my tween to encounter in the program from the teens.  The goal of the conversation would not to be to have the teen punished or removed, but rather to understand how leaders view and handle such situations, so as to determine whether it is an environment that is on the whole positive for the tween (and worth the money) vs. one that could get a lot, lot worse.  

 

If this is your tween, I would also suggest that you consider volunteering at the program, or finding other ways to spend some time getting to know the teens (and tweens) your children are hanging out with (both in this program and elsewhere), as that will help you to discuss their behavior with the tween, and to make decisions when asked "can I go to so-and-so's party" and the like.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Character education programs seem...not helpful to me. Also, I wouldn't judge a teen's character based on an interaction with a know-it-all younger kid in a hallway. People with good characters curse and get annoyed.

No. I so totally disagree. People with good characters know when to curse and get annoyed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Heh, no. Mine is the 'knows enough not to cuss unnecessarily in front of a bunch of kids' younger one. And he actually said, "dude..." With raised eyebrows.

 

The kids were playing cards, spit, as they had each day together. This kid lost a game to another kid. He said the f word in response to losing spit. It was in the hallway where the program is offerred, but we were there for a different event. My kid wasn't fazed at all by his retort, just said he was trying too hard to be what he thought was cool.

 

The whole thing just struck me because the mom is head of the parent support part of the program.

 

My Dh can swear with great flair and color, to my dismay, so it isn't about that being the sole measure of character. And I said that this is little to go on. But given the environment, occassion, response etc... can you blame me for not thinking all that highly of the program this kid has been in since he was in k?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No. I so totally disagree. People with good characters know when to curse and get annoyed.

One kid's one time annoyance does not indicate failure of a program. Though I think such programs are meritless anyway. You'll have the same number of jerks before and after. Maybe some will be able to hide it better or dress it up more, but same number.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's the real crux, is a program able to change or mold character? Will there be the same number of jerks (though I don't think the kid is a jerk for swearing)? I'm not inclined to judge the kid. I'm far more inclined to wonder about the environment that molded him according to the amazing write up.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ă°Å¸ËœÅ  No worries. I know tone is wierd online. No mama bear since the kid and mine were buddies and mine couldn't care less. It's more that there are parts of the program that really, really appeal to me. I'm tempted to put one of my kids in, largely because he is currently agnostic and I'd like for him to have an environment of amazing teens that support the probing of faith and encourage growth. He's on the cusp of his teens. While wicked smart, he's still going to go through the confusing years.

 

This program looks so good on paper. It is very expensive. And this interaction with someone actually in the program is all I have to go on. I want it to be amazing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Heh, no. Mine is the 'knows enough not to cuss unnecessarily in front of a bunch of kids' younger one. And he actually said, "dude..." With raised eyebrows.

 

The kids were playing cards, spit, as they had each day together. This kid lost a game to another kid. He said the f word in response to losing spit. It was in the hallway where the program is offerred, but we were there for a different event. My kid wasn't fazed at all by his retort, just said he was trying too hard to be what he thought was cool.

 

The whole thing just struck me because the mom is head of the parent support part of the program.

 

My Dh can swear with great flair and color, to my dismay, so it isn't about that being the sole measure of character. And I said that this is little to go on. But given the environment, occassion, response etc... can you blame me for not thinking all that highly of the program this kid has been in since he was in k?

 

It does not sound to me like your ds is in need of an expensive character ed program.  ;-)  His time (and your money) may be better spent in extracurricular activities where character may be exercised but is not the main focus of the program.  

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

can you blame me for not thinking all that highly of the program this kid has been in since he was in k?

I don't blame you, but *gently* it does make me wonder if you've have forgotten the gospel? There is no character program that will manufacture integrity and good character apart from the Holy Spirit. The cost of the program (seriously?), length of enrollment, or whether your parent is a coordinator is irrelevant.

 

I absolutely would reconsider a church that put an emphasis on moralism at the expense of the gospel, but it would have nothing to do with this incident.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's the real crux, is a program able to change or mold character? Will there be the same number of jerks (though I don't think the kid is a jerk for swearing)? I'm not inclined to judge the kid. I'm far more inclined to wonder about the environment that molded him according to the amazing write up.

Is it a 24/7 boot camp like the one the Duggars send their boys off to? That didn't seem to work out really well for them. If it's a few hours a week, I don't think it can do anything that hasn't been done in 13 years at home. I don't think programs develop character. If a person wants to change himself, certainly there are programs that can help him. But putting another person into any type of program isn't going to effectuate internal change. The enrolled person may learn how to act to adapt to the program's goals (boot camp type situation), or he could rebel and shut down. Anything that advertises character building is kind of a red flag for me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think many programs can offset what a child is exposed to day to day.  So if a member of the household curses the child is going to add curse words to their vocabulary and use them.  If the child is around peers that engage in certain behaviors, it will take substantial counter training to avoid the teen using those behaviors.  Rather than look at the program, I would look at where the child spends the bulk of his time, who his friends are and the strength of his overall value system before judging a particular program. 

 

That being said, I have seen parents who trusted that their church programs would do the job of instilling value for them and didn't think to check all the above listed influences.  The results were not good. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd be questioning it. 

1. I'd be more interested in how the adults leading it behave.  If they don't walk the walk, how will the kids? 

2. I'd be interested in what happens when there's a setback, and how the discipline correlates with what the program tries to provide.

 

I've only seen one character education program work in a big group setting, and it was an every day, all day program with school and parents involved and having each other's backs.  The kids start out with a set of traits to memorize, the teachers circle back to those traits/teach application and help what the child is having difficulty with when it comes to discipline, the parents reinforce the same traits at home consciously. That works.  It's part of their life all the time.  Cutesy education programs?  They're mostly paper, no real long term effect or outcome.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seriously Chris, nobody expects perfection. Not necessary. I'm curious as to how other view it and if You had the experience is that genuinely how you would walk away? Please tell me. You would hear it and think, ok nobody's perfect, it's probably a good program?

 

Personally I wouldn't draw any conclusions about a character program based only on that one incident. If I observed it myself, I'd speak up and say, "Hey, there's a time and place for that type of language and this isn't it."

 

Have you seen or heard of this kid doing other things that give you pause? Or are you judging based on just this one interaction? I mean, I agree that it wasn't nice, but a kid saying a swear word on one occasion doesn't make any program he's involved in a failure.

 

Just for context, I'm not uptight about swearing. But doing so at church around someone who expressed they didn't like it is rude. That's the part that would bother me.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bear in mind also, that in any setting, there are good and bad influences. We must exercise discernment and teach our children the same.  On this earth, you will not find a setting totally free from being led astray.  But, at the very least, it is good to identify those who would intentionally do so and scorn their counsel.  ;)

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I beleive that we act out of free agency. This kid, poor kid whose action is getting rather magnified under my overly analytical eyes, made poor choices. When my kids and I talked about it, we went through the kids we knew and imagined each of them making similar choices. Truth is, that I find LOTS, if not the majority (that will earn me some nice unlikes) like to think actions occur in isolation. They do not. Our choices, even mistakes, are part of the continuity of our pasts and lives and influences and characters. The kids we can imagine making such choices do not do so in isolation. It is indicative of character. That is not to ignore that it is all a process, we are all fallen and that grace is available to us all. But society has definitely gone the way of demonizing useful, logical and right discrimination (the making choices kind, not the -ist kind).

 

My kids make mistakes too.

 

I won't mention the program name. It is daily immersion, but not at all fundamental or like the Duggar stuff. It is a perfect fit on paper.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I beleive that we act out of free agency. 

 

This doesn't work for people with OCD, general anxiety, PTSD, ADHD, conditioned to respond to adults in a co-dependent or hypersexual way, any number of variables we know impact a person's behavior, often in opposition to their stated desires.

 

 

This kid, poor kid whose action is getting rather magnified under my overly analytical eyes, made poor choices. When my kids and I talked about it, we went through the kids we knew and imagined each of them making similar choices. Truth is, that I find LOTS, if not the majority (that will earn me some nice unlikes) like to think actions occur in isolation.

 

I suspect people don't assume their actions occur in isolation, but rather are justified for one reason or another. 

 

But then, considering we know the brain responds to an event before a person makes a decision, it's all rather complicated.

 

 

But society has definitely gone the way of demonizing useful, logical and right discrimination (the making choices kind, not the -ist kind).

 

Fallen from what era? Which time are you comparing modern society to? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hopefully the litmus test of character isn't swearing...

I am generous, kind, usually compassionate, and I try very hard to be a good mother to my tribe of scoundrels.

But in the right company I swear like a pirate.

As does my Dh, but it's knowing when, matey. From what I can see you have fine qualities and character!
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We start with different premises Albeto. It won't work. But I don't put you on ignore because I like your facility with language.

 

No worries. I'm not trying to corrupt you. With so many posters, I don't know the religious background of most people, and I figured one can't really go wrong sharing facts and information with a community of educators. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

John 8:43-44

 

John 8:43-44King James Version (KJV)

 

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

 

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

 

And?

 

:huh:

 

ETA: I keep coming back to this because it makes no sense to me. Are you calling someone here a demon? Since I'm the one with whom the OP disagrees, is it me? Am I the demon? Is my dad a demon? Am I serving Lucifer or something? Am I lying about not trying to corrupt the OP, only I don't know it? Are the neurologists the demons? Scientists in general? Is science itself a tool of the devil? This is all very interesting and I hope you come back and explain it.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't swear, but I don't see swearing alone as a character issue. In the issue of swearing, I think good character is shown when one does not swear when it will be disrespectful or offensive to the listener.

 

And I agree with many others that character issues are not really shaped by a character "program." I tried to teach character to my kids as issues arose. And I tried to be a good example. However, as I am human, I often messed up.

 

I am a Christian, fwiw.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

John 8:43-44King James Version (KJV)

 

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

 

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

 

And?

 

:huh:

 

ETA: I keep coming back to this because it makes no sense to me. Are you calling someone here a demon? Since I'm the one with whom the OP disagrees, is it me? Am I the demon? Is my dad a demon? Am I serving Lucifer or something? Am I lying about not trying to corrupt the OP, only I don't know it? Are the neurologists the demons? Scientists in general? Is science itself a tool of the devil? This is all very interesting and I hope you come back and explain it.

It's possible she got her numbers mixed up. I'm pretty sure people wouldn't call each other demons in one-liners, over such a simple thread. (Could be wrong about that, though.)
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In all fairness, what does it say about me that I'll admit if this were a free or cheap program I'd be willing to give it a try and pull out if it didn't work. I have puh-lenty of my own character issues to work on.

What is it about this program that attracts you to it?  Perhaps we could be of more help if we could look more at the content than the behavior of one participant.  (I must admit, I am curious about the idea of a character program for the teen set - I think of it more as a topic for much younger children.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

- Bible study that is age appropriate, more reasoning

- strong mentorship and support

- gender separation, with emphasis on EF for boys especially

- not intended to indoctrinate so much as educate using philosophy, history etc

 

I feel like this ds has a great foundation, but is able to fool himself. I'd like for him to have a peer group available to discuss faith and philosophy. I'd like to find positive peer pressure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The kid swearing wouldn't bother me so much, assuming he is generally a good kid, respectful, etc. 

 

What bothers me is "expensive program" combined with "church."  Adults coming alongside children, teens, and tweens as role models, helpers, teachers, and mentors will do much more for character building than any program. 

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh I do t think that is true . Most RE programs have a paid director , right? Same with Boy and Girl Scouts..... Mostly run by volunteers but under the direction of staff who have responsibilities and are accountable for the program. BUT in most cases for Religiois Education the church community as a whole covers the expense (plus fundraising sometimes). There isn't a tuition payment typically that I am aware of.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How would you see this situation:

 

There's an expensive church based character program. The point is to support and develop good character. Kids, tweens to mid teens, are playing cards in the hall when one of the teens in the program uses the f word. This teen has been in the program for years and has a family heavily involved. A younger kid not in the program tells him to watch his language, but teen retorts that the game is for 13 and up (implying that language is ok and kids should leave).

 

Small issue, but how much of a red flag is it that this program is not so good for character development?

 

If the program looks amazing on paper, would this be enough to make you walk away?

 

It would be enough to make me walk away BECAUSE it has been my experience that leaders (or families who are "heavily involved") whose children behave this way are poison to any group.  They have typically gotten away with this sort of behavior for years, and it has not been dealt with appropriately. 

 

If it were a regular kid in the program, it wouldn't raise that red flag.

 

I'm just going to say that you don't need an expensive church based character program.  There's absolutely nothing there that you can't do or aren't already doing at home.  I assume it's a Bible based program.  Using the Bible in your own home (as I'm sure you already are!) will far surpass any outside program run by a church.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You hit on my initial concern. It might be a great program.

 

I recently paid for not going with my gut feeling on something else and not heeding red flags. I suppose I'm more sensitive right now.

 

I do think we've hit the age where voices other than my own would help.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Executive functioning. Gender separation helps because of the influence of the opposite gender. For boys it allows them to work on basic functioning skills that many lack in middle school that many girls already know. It lets boys learn to get organized without feeling stupid.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's how I would see the situation:

It's a little like evaluating the strength of a language arts program a family has used since K, based on hearing a teen make one grammatical error.

 

Character development is ongoing. Kids make character errors (and grammatical errors) while they're learning. That's why we teach them stuff.

 

I just skimmed back, and I see that you're dealing with fallout from another situation, which may have made you either oversensitive OR more likely to listen to your gut. :grouphug: That's a difficult place to be. The language/behavior might or might not be concerning. I'd focus on your feelings about that and leave the effectiveness of any programs that child has been through out of the equation.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

Ă—
Ă—
  • Create New...