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If you CAN do college early...should you? Musings...


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This is just musing, really.  So, muse with me if you like.

 

I have a dc who is logic stage and working a few grades ahead across the board, but doesn't specialize in anything. She's pretty even in her grade level- not ahead or behind in anything, and has lots of interests.

 

She dreams of MIT (and we encourage her to dream... broader. That's a lottery I don't want her to spend her childhood on.)

 

We homeschool because there are slim opportunities in our district (and a culture of apathy).

 

None of the things in our area really exist for academic students- no math clubs/ teams, the Science Olympiad in our state says homeschoolers need to come from the same two counties (not likely to happen ...we have amber waves of grain... but not a lot of science lovers), very limited AP classes/ testing in our area (maybe an hour away if you can get a school who will take you). Science fair discourages homeschoolers (unofficially). We do have a robust 4H program and dc participates quite a bit.

 

We also have a small college ten minutes from our house.

 

Because I know kids who go to this school, I know dd could probably start and successfully complete classes pretty early on in high school. It's a middle of the road school. They do a good job supporting their early college students and have small class sizes. The school's original focus was on engineering, and they do still have solid math and science offerings. The student body is not always extremely academically-minded.

 

For some reason, this seems like a bad idea to me, but one that has appeal. I will be working full time again by the time she's in high school, and she's the last kid at home.

 

What is lost by starting college early at a middle-of-the-road school, and doing well? She potentially could be looking at a STEM field, but she's not the kind of person who will give her life over to a single passion. I'm pretty sure she will go to grad school (her older siblings have mostly all gone on to grad school).

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Of course we'd have to start somewhere.  :001_smile:  Our older kids did some early college classes, and it was a mixed bag. Two of them finished up their undergraduate mid-year and had to figure out what to do with the spring semester before starting grad school. Our state uni's actually specify incoming students have at least 2 college classes or 2 AP classes before they begin.

 

I'm thinking about this because I noticed at the 4H fair this week, several of the "10 year" members who had their bio's featured were homeschoolers who were finishing their associates and High School diplomas at the same time.

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I bumped one thread for you.

 

This one wound up locked but before it went off the rails it was a good discussion: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/530628-early-college/

 Yikes, I'm not sure I can get through the first post. I can see why that one went off the rails. That's not where I want to go at all. I'll go see what I can glean from it.

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I don't think it needs to be all or nothing.  Why not start off with one class?  That's my plan in about  a year.  It is a bit scarier for me though.  I don't know anyone there and don't know how much support is available.  Not to mention my kid looks younger than he is. 

 

My kids run small, too. They do have big attitudes, though.

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Of course we'd have to start somewhere.  :001_smile:  Our older kids did some early college classes, and it was a mixed bag. Two of them finished up their undergraduate mid-year and had to figure out what to do with the spring semester before starting grad school. Our state uni's actually specify incoming students have at least 2 college classes or 2 AP classes before they begin.

 

I'm thinking about this because I noticed at the 4H fair this week, several of the "10 year" members who had their bio's featured were homeschoolers who were finishing their associates and High School diplomas at the same time.

 

That's a bit trickier in NY.  Not impossible, but not as straight forward especially if you use a CC.

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Well, a year ago in reading those threads, I thought we were off the early college path-but now that DD went to visit Davidson Academy and has had a chance to be part of a community of similar kids for a summer program, she wants to apply to DA (and we'll probably look at other programs as well). She has no real desire to do early college across the board locally-but desperately wants that group of kids her age who don't look at her cross eyed when she talks about submitting an abstract for a poster session and understand "I'd like to hang out tonight, but I need to test my bacteria cultures within the window. I'll call you when I'm done".

 

It will be interesting to see where we are a year from now!

 

 

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Well, a year ago in reading those threads, I thought we were off the early college path-but now that DD went to visit Davidson Academy and has had a chance to be part of a community of similar kids for a summer program, she wants to apply to DA (and we'll probably look at other programs as well). She has no real desire to do early college across the board locally-but desperately wants that group of kids her age who don't look at her cross eyed when she talks about submitting an abstract for a poster session and understand "I'd like to hang out tonight, but I need to test my bacteria cultures within the window. I'll call you when I'm done".

 

It will be interesting to see where we are a year from now!

 

Yes, keep us posted. It's fun watching your dd explore her passion.

 

We've only done standardized testing twice, dc missed the cut off in one area for DYS and in a different area the other year, so I'm not sure that's even an avenue for us to explore. She's too accelerated (3 years) to fit into any B&M school, but maybe not enough for the PG programs.

 

Actually I think she'd enjoy a liberal arts degree for high school (to explore all of her interests) and a math degree for college...

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There are a lot of ways if one is homeschooling to challenge a student at home and send her off to college with her age peers.  Could you have your daughter take classes at your local college while in high school and you grant high school credit for those classes?  Are there mentors in the community who your daughter could study under while in high school?

 

We also live in a rural area with the closest math circle almost 3 hours away, so AoPS provides my kids with their math circle.  We didn't have a college close by, so my son self-studied topics using MIT OCW.  He also reached out to members of the community in areas where he was interested.  He asked various professionals if he could shadow them for a day.  Many people were very generous in permitting him to shadow, especially since he only asked for a one day commitment.  One of those shadow- for -a- day opportunities morphed into him becoming a member of a research team for 2+ years and having his results published in multiple medical journals. 

 

Imo, one of the greatest benefits of homeschooling is that it gives us the freedom and the flexibility to think outside the box when providing educational opportunities to our kids.

 

 

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There are a lot of ways if one is homeschooling to challenge a student at home and send them off to college with her age peers.  Could you have your daughter take classes at your local college while in high school and you grant high school credit for those classes?  Are there mentors in the community who your daughter could study under while in high school?

 

We also live in a rural area with the closest math circle almost 3 hours away, so AoPS provides my kids with their math circle.  We didn't have a college close by, so my son self-studied topics using MIT OCW.  He also reached out to members of the community in areas where he was interested.  He asked various professionals if he could shadow them for a day.  Many people were very generous in permitting him to shadow, especially since he only asked for a one day commitment.  One of those shadow- for -a- day opportunities morphed into him becoming a member of a research team for 2+ years and having his results published in multiple medical journals. 

 

Imo, one of the greatest benefits of homeschooling is that it gives us the freedom and the flexibility to think outside the box when providing educational opportunities to our kids.

 

I played with this on paper... and yes, there are lots of classes she could do at the college as an early college student. Since it seems very likely she'll eventually major in something with "engineering" in the title, she won't have room for extras like art, music or even foreign language at the college level. So doing those in high school as high school credits is a good solution.

 

I'm really not sure about AoPS for this kiddo- she plays 2-3 instruments and is studying 2 languages right now. Time would be a factor. I wish there were something of a middle road. I'm considering the WTM classes with the AoPS books.

 

ETA: This has me thinking... many of the professionals in the area adjunct for the college, so being involved over there opens some doors for shadowing, like you mention.

 

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I played with this on paper... and yes, there are lots of classes she could do at the college as an early college student. Since it seems very likely she'll eventually major in something with "engineering" in the title, she won't have room for extras like art, music or even foreign language at the college level. So doing those in high school as high school credits is a good solution.

 

I'm really not sure about AoPS for this kiddo- she plays 2-3 instruments and is studying 2 languages right now. Time would be a factor. I wish there were something of a middle road. I'm considering the WTM classes with the AoPS books.

 

ETA: This has me thinking... many of the professionals in the area adjunct for the college, so being involved over there opens some doors for shadowing, like you mention.

 

 

Does she have to be an "early college student" to take classes at your local college?  Could she simply be classified as a high school student who happens to be taking college classes for high school credit?

 

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Does she have to be an "early college student" to take classes at your local college?  Could she simply be classified as a high school student who happens to be taking college classes for high school credit?

 

 

That's what they call the high school students taking college classes around here. Kind of confusing, I know.

 

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I am doing quite a bit of musing/agonizing on this subject lately.

 

Dd is heading into 8th grade (age-wise) but has been doing high school level work for a couple years. Doing some classes dual enrollment is an option in the next year or two but she is currently traveling more and more with her music and does not want to give that up. Online classes, either AP or through college, are also options. Continuing studies on her own…also an option as is some combination for different courses.

 

There is a lot to think about and I am very unsure which direction to head with her. Hoping the best path for her will become clearer as this year progresses.

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We wrestled with this during middle school, looking into Mary Baldwin and other options. In the end, we decided against it. APs and dual enrollment will allow DD to continue the unique opportunities she's a part of. Early college would not. 

 

If APs and a solid DE program at a respected four year university weren't available, we might make a different decision.

Likewise, if she weren't involved in several academic projects and intensive personal growth activities, we might make a different decision. 

 

OP, from your description of the options in your area, I would probably seriously consider early college. Sometimes early college is an excellent choice.

 

Good luck deciding! 

 

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What does she say? I think you could give it a try. More often than not the parents I speak to feel it was the right choice...more often than not the decision was jointly made or driven by the kid. It takes some thick skin to apply but once the college admin see why she is applying the process could be a lot smoother than you think. Sometimes admin is also willing to tweak normal admin requirements in special cases so ask every question eg about calling her a highschool student, even if you think they will call her an early college student.

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That's what they call the high school students taking college classes around here. Kind of confusing, I know.

 

 

Oh, I misunderstood.  I thought you were planning to graduate your daughter from your homeschool early and consider her an official college student. 

 

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So many questions.

 

How early? Are we talking a pre-pubescent child? A 10-14 year old? Or a teen who is advanced but let's be honest, going to college at 15, 16, 17 is not massively early. Technically, I could have gone to college at that age and tens of thousands of kids finish their associate's degrees while in high school and finish a bachelor's at 20, in states with dual enrollment. I certainly wouldn't ever stop a kid from doing that! But at 10? Hm, that's a different question.

 

Which subjects? French Lit? Math? Engineering? Suppose the child does finish a PhD in physics and BS in minerals at 16, 18. Are they going to get hired? On the other hand, the child who finishes a degree in philosophy at 14 might be able to get their PhD and law degree at 18 and then get a JD as well. 

 

Which college? Are we talking about the college which is targeted at gifted and highly talented students, like engineering or physics at MIT, or are we talking about a middle-ranked State U that is happy to serve your kid but which will hardly have the most gifted students with whom your child can associate and learn, and which may not have the latest research being conducted in its labs? Which can your child gain admittance into? A highly gifted student might be better served waiting to ace some courses at the State U and win some national contests and then get to go to MIT at 16, which isn't that early, but which will allow a totally different experience than they would have just learning LinAlg there as a 12 year old.

 

What do you mean by "can": get a 4.0? Get an above-median GPA? Learn new things and participate in the class discussion at the appropriate level (regardless of final grade, which may be substantially lower than it would have been if you'd have taken the course 2 years later)? Organize a major and make plans for using their undergraduate study to lay a foundation for a strong graduate-level course of study? Able to get full funding at the college, or at least a lot of funding? Able to get to and from the college (assuming that the youth is old enough to stay at class herself, or that the family has a SAHP there or can pay a nanny)?

 

What does it mean to be ready for college early?

 

Regardless, I wouldn't hold off for social reasons.

 

However, and not that anyone in our family was ready for this, I do think there's a huge difference between being able to compute and do schoolwork at the college level, and really participating in a university-level learning community in some fields in particular. It's not that you'd lose out from high school. I don't think many people would lose by missing high school.

 

It's more that you could lose some of what you could have learned in college, because you'd not have the context, self-confidence among adults, or other skills needed to participate at that level. Maybe some people can participate at their full level in college very early, but I suspect the majority of early college goers will have to balance the loss of context in some college courses, like how this math can be applied, or the subtle nuances of sexual conversations in literature, with the fact that they may be quite bored until they get to the upper PhD or professional research level, so they don't want to prolong that any more than necessary, you know?

 

It's a balance. It is going to depend on a lot more than chronology.

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Musing with you.....

 

 

 

If we were still living in the U.S, my DD would have headed off to college at the age when she could physically pass off as a small-for-age teen. That would probably be around the 12 yr old mark. At 10, she is physically a child. So, I suppose physical development would be the first checkpoint.

 

Quality of courses- which includes level of required executive functioning- would be the next. Would the course require a combination of--  hands on projects, research papers, classroom discussions, frequent tests, seminars.? If so, the learning curve will be steep and has to be factored in.

 

Logistics---And the last, either the parent driving the minor child to campus and waiting until classes are done Or child decides to stay on campus. (gulp).

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Musing with you.....

 

 

 

If we were still living in the U.S, my DD would have headed off to college at the age when she could physically pass off as a small-for-age teen. That would probably be around the 12 yr old mark. At 10, she is physically a child. So, I suppose physical development would be the first checkpoint.

 

Quality of courses- which includes level of required executive functioning- would be the next. Would the course require a combination of--  hands on projects, research papers, classroom discussions, frequent tests, seminars.? If so, the learning curve will be steep and has to be factored in.

 

Logistics---And the last, either the parent driving the minor child to campus and waiting until classes are done Or child decides to stay on campus. (gulp).

 

LOL, she looks very much like a child still. Until she starts to talk... 

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What does she say? I think you could give it a try. More often than not the parents I speak to feel it was the right choice...more often than not the decision was jointly made or driven by the kid. It takes some thick skin to apply but once the college admin see why she is applying the process could be a lot smoother than you think. Sometimes admin is also willing to tweak normal admin requirements in special cases so ask every question eg about calling her a highschool student, even if you think they will call her an early college student.

 

Good points. There are some 14-16 year olds who commute to campus who are full time students. I really do think I want her 17-18 before she really goes to college.

 

I could see her participating enthusiastically as a dual enrollment student in their music program at 14, though. It's not a competitive program and has quite a bit of community participation. It seems like we're always looking for a music teacher for one reason or another, anyhow.

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I would strongly suggest making sure she can pass the theory placement test if she wants to DE college music. Not necessarily because she wants to be a music major, but because the gen Ed classes and the major classes have a very different student population and are focused differently. The major level music history/lit sequence is going to be a better fit for a young, gifted student than the non-major music appreciation classes which often tend to be focused on interesting stories, which tend to be rather adult, with little depth or true content. Non-major music reading is on, honestly, about what is covered in PS 5th grade. Non-major class piano is reading a lead sheet and being able to play a few block chords. In all cases, no experience or background is needed.

 

 

Even for non-major lessons, an audition is required. I will say that for a fairly talented student, DE tuition is often cheaper than equivalent private lessons-but many states where DE is free won't pay for it.

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I will hopefully be going to grad school FT in the next year or two, and we're considering both an arts-focused magnet/charter high school and early college for my oldest. DD really is resistent to the "cookie cutter" standard high school college prep sequence and I'm sick of fighting with her over it. She wants to do nothing but read, play her viola, and work on her art.

 

She'll be taking the high school proficiency exam in October (she was originally planning to take it last March but things got too crazy with the discovery of her little sister's hearing loss). She will also probably take several CLEP's to try and test out of the general ed requirements that are such a bane of contention with her. I'd have her take AP exams except the CB won't let her until 9th grade.

 

I have a lot of sympathy for wanting to study only the subjects that interest her and not 4 years' worth of "check the box" requirements. I much preferred college to high school for that reason and the 2nd BA is even better because I don't have to worry about general ed requirements at all.

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I will hopefully be going to grad school FT in the next year or two, and we're considering both an arts-focused magnet/charter high school and early college for my oldest. DD really is resistent to the "cookie cutter" standard high school college prep sequence and I'm sick of fighting with her over it. She wants to do nothing but read, play her viola, and work on her art.

 

She'll be taking the high school proficiency exam in October (she was originally planning to take it last March but things got too crazy with the discovery of her little sister's hearing loss). She will also probably take several CLEP's to try and test out of the general ed requirements that are such a bane of contention with her. I'd have her take AP exams except the CB won't let her until 9th grade.

 

I have a lot of sympathy for wanting to study only the subjects that interest her and not 4 years' worth of "check the box" requirements. I much preferred college to high school for that reason and the 2nd BA is even better because I don't have to worry about general ed requirements at all.

 

OT, but aren't there several posters here whose kids have taken APs in middle school?

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OT, but aren't there several posters here whose kids have taken APs in middle school?

 

It's a recent policy change by CB. Probably in response to the "arms race" that is happening wrt pushing down advanced courses into lower and lower grades. Most kids, even most gifted kids, aren't ready for AP courses prior to 9th, but there are always outliers.

 

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My good friend from college went to University of Arkansas for two years (from 15-17) and then came to Caltech as a freshman math major. Another friend went to a community college for two years and transferred in as a sophomore (and wowsers, it was a hard transition). 

 

If your daughter's aim is a place like MIT, a run-of-the-mill college won't transfer year for year most likely, but can provide some challenge beforehand.

 

Emily

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It depends.  Calvin could have got into a good university at fifteen.  He got into a great university at seventeen.  It's exactly the right place for him.

 

Doesn't the UK system allow for more specialization at the secondary level? I'm under the impression that the student gets to choose which A level subjects to study rather than the "cookie cutter" nature of university prep high school here in the U.S. For example, someone who intends to major in humanities or social science only needs to take a single general science exam rather than needing 3 years' worth of biology, a physical science, and an elective.

 

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It's a recent policy change by CB. Probably in response to the "arms race" that is happening wrt pushing down advanced courses into lower and lower grades. Most kids, even most gifted kids, aren't ready for AP courses prior to 9th, but there are always outliers.

 

 

Oh, wow. I had no idea. That is awful. 

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It's a recent policy change by CB. Probably in response to the "arms race" that is happening wrt pushing down advanced courses into lower and lower grades. Most kids, even most gifted kids, aren't ready for AP courses prior to 9th, but there are always outliers.

 

 

Do you have any links about the change? I couldn't find anything.

 

ETA: So, this is not current policy?

 

http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/public/repository/Appropriate-Grade-Levels-for-AP-Courses.pdf

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Doesn't the UK system allow for more specialization at the secondary level? I'm under the impression that the student gets to choose which A level subjects to study rather than the "cookie cutter" nature of university prep high school here in the U.S. For example, someone who intends to major in humanities or social science only needs to take a single general science exam rather than needing 3 years' worth of biology, a physical science, and an elective.

 

 

It's just the last two years of school.  Until the age of 16, someone heading for university would be studying eight of more subjects, normally including physics, chemistry and biology studied simultaneously.  This would culminate in GCSE exams in each subject, so they all have to be learned to national standards.

 

At sixteen, a pupil would choose around five or six subjects to continue with (some at a higher level (A level), some at a lower level (AS level)) and could choose to skew them to his or her interests.  That means that someone interested in the arts could choose history, English and Latin at higher level, and geography and French at lower level.  

 

L

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I don't think anything is lost by starting college early, but I also agree that it doesn't need to be an all-or-nothing thing. Can she audit classes that interest her now to see what she likes and how she does with them? DS started doing this at 8 and it has been a great experience for him. We do limit him to one class a semester, but once he gets a little older we won't. I really can't think of any downside. Yes, he is several years younger than his classmates, but he isn't bothered by it and I don't imagine they are either. Of course, he is only auditing classes, not taking them for credit. For credit classes at a young age, yeah, I can see disadvantages ($, permanent record being two big ones).

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Butting in--Crimson wife, sorry I can't quote on this phone: is it really the case that you can't take APs until 9th grade? Is this a new rule? I recall a couple of WTM kiddos have done so in middle school and was hoping the same for DS (foreign language at least). Thank you!

Edit: I see this was asked and answered. Really bad news for me as I was hoping to lighten the load in what will be an intense high school experience anyway by front loading a couple of APs.

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My good friend from college went to University of Arkansas for two years (from 15-17) and then came to Caltech as a freshman math major. Another friend went to a community college for two years and transferred in as a sophomore (and wowsers, it was a hard transition). 

 

If your daughter's aim is a place like MIT, a run-of-the-mill college won't transfer year for year most likely, but can provide some challenge beforehand.

 

Emily

 

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of her taking the classes just for high school credit.

 

She dreams of MIT because she likes the "creative vibe" she senses when she's watching NOVA or whatever and there are MIT students or faculty on. We're not discouraging her outright (she's young, for goodness sake), but I'm pretty determined that she grow up to be... her. I don't want to spend her childhood considering what might look good on a college app. Surely there are smaller, less competitive, friendly schools with a "creative vibe."

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MIT is probably the most famous techie school, but there are plenty of other schools out there where a tech-loving student could find his/her tribe. UC Santa Cruz is not one of the more selective UC schools but they got a lab working on a robotic eye that my DS thinks is the coolest thing ever. Oregon State is also supposed to have a good robotics program and again isn't as competitive as a MIT/CalTech/Carnegie Mellon/etc.

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Do you have any links about the change? I couldn't find anything.

 

ETA: So, this is not current policy?

 

http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/public/repository/Appropriate-Grade-Levels-for-AP-Courses.pdf

 

Wait, what? Dd13 just took the AP CS exam and got a 5.    According to this link it looks like you can't list an AP class on your transcript before 9th grade, but that's different from taking the exam in 8th grade.  Is there a link that confirms this?  

 

ETA:  8th graders can take the AP?

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Wait, what? Dd13 just took the AP CS exam and got a 5. According to this link it looks like you can't list an AP class on your transcript before 9th grade, but that's different from taking the exam in 8th grade. Is there a link that confirms this?

 

ETA: 8th graders can take the AP?

Also, does this mean that places like PA homeschoolers will no longer be allowed to let middle schoolers into AP classes? CW, do you have further clarification?

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 was hoping the same for DS (foreign language at least)

:huh:  me too ... I was hoping to finish a few APs like Music Theory, Foreign Lang etc in middle school in order to reduce the AP course load for high school. This is bad news for me.

CW, is the change already in effect?

 

ETA: a little googling brought this up:

"The AP designation may only be applied to authorized courses offered at or above the 9th grade level which have received authorization through the annual AP Course Audit process. The AP label cannot be affixed to courses and transcripts prior to 9th grade. There is one exception to this policy: AP world language courses. These courses focus on linguistic proficiency and cultural competency, so in rare situations these courses can be successfully offered earlier than 9th grade among students who can already speak, read, and write the language with fluency. In summary, the AP Course Audit will only renew or authorize courses that are offered exclusively in grades 9-12, with the exception of AP world language programs."

 

Original document is here: http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/public/repository/Appropriate-Grade-Levels-for-AP-Courses.pdf

 

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AP exams can definitely be taken before 9th grade. Now you cannot list the course as AP on a transcript but you can list the course as 'Advanced BlahBlaBlah with AP exam'.This is commonly done for homeschooled high school students who don't take an official AP-designated course for whatever reason.

 

It may be more difficult to find an online provider or B&M school that will let a younger student into an AP class. I'm not sure about that because dd has done and will be doing all of her APs with me at home :)

 

And to fit with the OP's topic, dd is transitioning into taking classes at the University of Our State while remaining a high school student. Like Laura said upthread, dd could get into a good college at 15. She wants to get into a great college a bit older :D

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I was aware of the document when DS was enrolled in AP courses prior to 9th grade, and was not sure how to interpret it. But it turned out that "AP" was listed on the transcripts.

 

Was this recently? With an online provider or a B&M school? How old was your DS at the time?

 

My kids are a long way off, but, like the others, I was hoping to knock off a few APs early.

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