Writing for my 10yo

[Tracy]

I thought I knew what we were going to do for language arts for my 10yo, but I keep doubting myself.  What I have planned just doesn't seem sufficient.  

 

A little background.  We did WWE1-3 in 1st through 3rd grade.  Dd struggled with them.  If I had it to do over again, I would start the sequence in 2nd grade.  Nevertheless, I feel that her writing is really good for her age.  When she writes on her own (rather than as assigned), her grammar and mechanics are good, and she puts together complex and interesting sentences.  It just takes her a lot of time to actually do it.  Actually, everything takes her a long time.  It has gotten a bit better as she has gotten older, but since her father has the same problem, so I have no illusions that the problem will go away.  We have to make sure to make assignments short and simple, emphasizing quality over quantity.  

 

Last year, we were going to do WWE4.  The dictations were too much for her, so I was going to do only the narrations.  However, I became quite ill in September and did not get better.  So I had to scale everything down.  We ended up doing only dictations from another source.  She did well with these.  She spent about 10 minutes daily on dictations.  

 

Dh and I decided that it is time for her to learn to type.  (He told me that typing helped him with some of his writing issues, so we are hoping it will similarly help her.)  She is excited about it and is currently at about 10wpm.  It was my intent to make typing her only language arts activity until she was proficient.  But I was looking at WWS (for the future) and I realized that her narration skills are not the greatest.  She was starting to really get it at the end of WWE3, but we haven't done much of it since.  She has a really hard time picking out the salient details of a passage.

 

So now I am freaking out a bit wondering if I am failing her.  I am feeling a little better than I was, but I am still quite ill, and there will no doubt be continuing doctors appointments interrupting the flow of things.  And now dd10 has moved up a level in ballet and will be starting pointe in February.  She has class 3 days per week, plus she assists in the 3 and 4yo classes one morning per week.  She has piano lessons.  So 2 mornings per week are completely shot.  And we have a loose homeschooling group that is getting together one morning per week, and at some point, people will start planning field trips.  My 7yo could handle all this and more.  If I told him I need him to get XYZ done before we go, he just does.  But my 10yo does not transition well from one activity to the next, nor does she handle changes to her daily routine well.  (We don't have behavior issues.  She just has trouble getting it all done, and she gets very distracted.)  So I have to allow for all of this, and I just don't know how to make it all work.  

 

It has been helpful to talk things over with dh, because he has these same issues.  But at the same time, no one ever helped him, so his insight is limited.  And it doesn't help that he takes the position that "she'll be okay" (or maybe it should help).  Any thoughts would be appreciated.  

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: 

 

Have you had any evaluations for your child?  If you knew the exact nature of her struggles it might help you pinpoint where to remediate, where to accommodate, etc.

[Tracy]

No, I have not.  It was my intention to get an evaluation for her last year.  But I have just been too ill to make it a priority.  I have done a lot of reading and research, and based on that and the issues that my husband has, I strongly believe that there is an issue with processing speed.  Perhaps there are other issues, too.  But that is the one thing that I am pretty sure about.  

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

Have you had any evaluations for your child?  If you knew the exact nature of her struggles it might help you pinpoint where to remediate, where to accommodate, etc.

 

[PeterPan]

Your dd is doing the same things my dd at those very same ages, and she's now a VERY good writer.  I would like to RELEASE you from this fear.  Seriously!  Saying that people are behind if they aren't doing WWS in 5th or 6th or whatever is just fear-mongering.  My dd did WWS1 in 8th, WWS2 in 9th.  It's GREAT then. It's great that someone else does it earlier, but the way my dd did it was more advanced, more mature, and a much faster pace.  Doing it the way it's written, at the time it's suggested, is NOT the only profitable way.  :)  I took her to the ps for a fresh psych eval, and the psych was BLOWN AWAY by her writing, wished she was at his school taking AP classes, hehe.   :)  She had a big spurt in 8th, right as her typing kicked in.  

 

I would say you're exactly right doing typing.  I get why you're worried about her narrations, but what you're seeing there are the EF issues, not that you're doing something wrong.  I would encourage you to think of writing *beyond* narrations.  You can google site search for my old posts (because my memory is bad), but in those nebulous years we did a variety of things like...

 

-outlining Muse magazine articles--They're well-written, quirky, perfect for our kids.

-prompt-writing--We used the prompts from the Jump In tm one year, maybe 6th gr, I forget.  

-the Creative Writer series--We waited too long on these or rather they came out late for her.  You might try them now.

-fan fiction writing--Once her typing came in, she went CRAZY with this.

-projects from the Don't Forget to Write books

-large projects with meaning (writing a script for a documentary for National History Day)

 

Ditch your fear.  She's just at the ugly stage where it hasn't come together yet.  For it to come together she needs to be able to:

 

-type--making it easy to get her thoughts out

-have sufficient working memory --so she doesn't lose her thoughts

-be comfortable using technology to organize her thoughts--Inspiration software, you REALLY WANT THIS.  You REALLY want to get her started using this.

-a motivating reason to write--contests, large projects, private reasons like journals/emails/correspondence

 

When we decided to make the change on my dd's typing, I put her into Dvorak (an alternate keyboard layout), gave her a locked down user account that could only use that layout, and told her I'd pay her $1 per wpm any month where she increased by 5.  She very quickly earned half an ipad, lol.  Oh, and I gave her an email account and told her she could do ANYTHING online and join any user groups or forums so long as she asked me first.  So she had motivation, motivation, motivation!

 

Given the age of your dd, you might look at Listography.  It's not too much.  Think little nibbles like Listography plus Creative Writer 1-2 days a week plus outlining a Muse magazine or other article 1-2 days a week.  Let those little things add up.  Meanwhile she's making tracks on the typing with your high motivation/reward policy and you're maybe doing things to work on working memory and EF.  Then, a year from now you have a kid who can hold their thoughts, organize their thoughts, get their thoughts out, and ENJOYS doing all that.  THEN all this starts to come together.   :)

 

It will come together.  Continue to be patient and let it happen.  You have to believe that it's *inside* and that what you're doing is removing the roadblocks, one by one, so it can come out.   :)

 

[Tracy]

Your dd is doing the same things my dd at those very same ages, and she's now a VERY good writer.  I would like to RELEASE you from this fear.  Seriously!  Saying that people are behind if they aren't doing WWS in 5th or 6th or whatever is just fear-mongering.  My dd did WWS1 in 8th, WWS2 in 9th.  It's GREAT then. It's great that someone else does it earlier, but the way my dd did it was more advanced, more mature, and a much faster pace.  Doing it the way it's written, at the time it's suggested, is NOT the only profitable way.   :)  I took her to the ps for a fresh psych eval, and the psych was BLOWN AWAY by her writing, wished she was at his school taking AP classes, hehe.   :)  She had a big spurt in 8th, right as her typing kicked in.  

 

I would say you're exactly right doing typing.  I get why you're worried about her narrations, but what you're seeing there are the EF issues, not that you're doing something wrong.  I would encourage you to think of writing *beyond* narrations.  You can google site search for my old posts (because my memory is bad), but in those nebulous years we did a variety of things like...

 

It will come together.  Continue to be patient and let it happen.  You have to believe that it's *inside* and that what you're doing is removing the roadblocks, one by one, so it can come out.   :)

 

OhElizabeth, I was hoping you would respond.  Your experience with your dd has inspired me for a long time.  We did try Listography, but it didn't work out so well.  She does occasionally write in her journal.  And she writes her own stories, though that goes in spurts.  She doesn't let me see anything she writes.  She doesn't want anything she writes to be turned into school.  (In other words, she doesn't want to worry about spelling and mechanics, though her skills in this area are good.)  But maybe if I paid her for her stories . . . hmmm.

 

I know you have suggested the inspiration software before, and I thought she wasn't old enough to make use of it yet.  I will take a look again, and check out some of those other suggestions.  

[PeterPan]

Why do you need to see her stories?  They're her private work.  The only thing you need to see/supervise is something she turns in to you.  

 

Did you try doing the Listography *with* her?  It might be that it's very hard for her.  List-making is affected by praxis, and the OT was the one who picked up on that with dd.  So, if I could suggest, you might go back at it but a fresh way, kwim?  Like do it together and write your answers with crazy markers.  Or do it and start a blog of crazy top 10 lists.  Just do it once a week or every other week, taking turns, letting her guess what yours would be, alternating so it's only half the work.  Just the thought process is worth something.  

 

If she types, she's going to use spell check, right?  I told you my dd earned an ipad with her typing rewards.  I got her an ipad and bluetooth keyboard, and that's how she writes in her room.  If you do that, she'll have spell check too.

 

Yes, I would say she's just getting old enough to try inspiration.  If you have an ipad, throw it as an app on there.  Or try Popplet, (or is it poplett?) which you can get for free.  Any mind-mapping app will do.  Or do it together on a whiteboard.  Again, do this TOGETHER.  You're just wanting to explore the concept that there is a point to each paragraph, that we can see what the point is, that we can start to discern an overall flow to the writing, and then get that into some visual organization she can understand.  As you drip drip and explore this concept, she'll get more comfortable.  Then in a year or two she'll be more ready to harness for herself. 

 

My dd's writing jump was 7th/8th grade, not age 9/10.  I remember being REALLY FREAKED OUT about her writing at that age.  I remember very distinctly lamenting to someone that I just had NOT DONE ENOUGH with narrations.  What a laugh, lol.  Our kids process and have so many separate thoughts.  You're lamenting that she doesn't get kicks out of boring simple outlines, but you have a child who is eventually going to make COMPLEX CONNECTIONS across disciplines and sophisticated concepts.  What you actually have to do is teach them that they can see structure visually, that they can get their complex thoughts into those structures, and that they can use those structures to take the way they think and TRANSLATE it into the way other people think (more linear).  That's where this is going.  This whole idea that you need to build up structure slowly because she doesn't have any thoughts is just corrupt and doesn't fit how their brains work.  Their brains are actually the total inverse, with lots of divergent ideas that they can't bring into an order that makes sense to other people.  So we have to give them a MORE SOPHISTICATED structure (hence the Inspiration software), not less.  The brighter they are, the more important this is.  And I'll be polite here, but people didn't do that for my dh, and instead tried to force his brain into linear structure, and it's VERY hard to follow his writing.  I think it's imperative to recognize where this is going, that we are actually trying to teach methodology that's capable of keeping up with our kids NOT teaching our kids to squish into inferior methodology.  

 

These thoughts ARE inside of her, doubtless.  

 

Another thing we did in those years was going back to Writing Tales, looking at stories afresh and pursuing them more ways.  Like we'd take the same story and compare versions, discuss what made them work, and do drafts using the things we learned.  There's a book 180 Days of Writing that is good for tag team writing.  I got it a little late for my dd, but yours might enjoy it pretty soon.  But it's something you would do together, both of you doing the exercises, not just something you assign and walk away, kwim?

 

I'd let her do her own personal writing and not sweat the spelling and stuff.  It sounds like her spelling is *ok* and if she has a reason for it to matter she'll care and get help.  For her own personal stuff, just let her write.  

 

Does she have issues with word retrieval?  You mentioned processing speed.  Dd has issues with word retrieval and some slight praxis issues.  When you feel up to getting evals, if you use a neuropsych they can run some language testing and sort that out.  Sometimes just having the right word for it will help you worry less.  Sometimes just a little accommodation (use of a thesaurus, knowing you need more time, etc.) will take care of it.

[Tracy]

My dd's writing jump was 7th/8th grade, not age 9/10.  I remember being REALLY FREAKED OUT about her writing at that age.  I remember very distinctly lamenting to someone that I just had NOT DONE ENOUGH with narrations.  What a laugh, lol.  Our kids process and have so many separate thoughts.  You're lamenting that she doesn't get kicks out of boring simple outlines, but you have a child who is eventually going to make COMPLEX CONNECTIONS across disciplines and sophisticated concepts.  What you actually have to do is teach them that they can see structure visually, that they can get their complex thoughts into those structures, and that they can use those structures to take the way they think and TRANSLATE it into the way other people think (more linear).  That's where this is going.  This whole idea that you need to build up structure slowly because she doesn't have any thoughts is just corrupt and doesn't fit how their brains work.  Their brains are actually the total inverse, with lots of divergent ideas that they can't bring into an order that makes sense to other people.  So we have to give them a MORE SOPHISTICATED structure (hence the Inspiration software), not less.  The brighter they are, the more important this is.  And I'll be polite here, but people didn't do that for my dh, and instead tried to force his brain into linear structure, and it's VERY hard to follow his writing.  I think it's imperative to recognize where this is going, that we are actually trying to teach methodology that's capable of keeping up with our kids NOT teaching our kids to squish into inferior methodology.  

 

:001_wub: I really love this.  Especially the bolded part.  (You really have a special wisdom when it comes to these kids.)  It is so true.  It started when she was a baby before she could even walk.  She would show me pictures of similar things in different books.  She has always been driven to make interesting connections.  Part of my problem is that I am very linear.  It is just so hard for me to understand how to approach this kind of child.  Her piano playing is a good example.  She will attempt pretty much anything, and I often think the piece she chooses is too hard for her.  But in a month, she is playing it.  And she has not by any means practiced it systematically.  I think her writing is going to come about in the same way.  

 

 

Why do you need to see her stories?  They're her private work.  The only thing you need to see/supervise is something she turns in to you.  

 

Did you try doing the Listography *with* her?  It might be that it's very hard for her.  List-making is affected by praxis, and the OT was the one who picked up on that with dd.  So, if I could suggest, you might go back at it but a fresh way, kwim?  Like do it together and write your answers with crazy markers.  Or do it and start a blog of crazy top 10 lists.  Just do it once a week or every other week, taking turns, letting her guess what yours would be, alternating so it's only half the work.  Just the thought process is worth something.  

 

If she types, she's going to use spell check, right?  I told you my dd earned an ipad with her typing rewards.  I got her an ipad and bluetooth keyboard, and that's how she writes in her room.  If you do that, she'll have spell check too.

 

Another thing we did in those years was going back to Writing Tales, looking at stories afresh and pursuing them more ways.  Like we'd take the same story and compare versions, discuss what made them work, and do drafts using the things we learned.  There's a book 180 Days of Writing that is good for tag team writing.  I got it a little late for my dd, but yours might enjoy it pretty soon.  But it's something you would do together, both of you doing the exercises, not just something you assign and walk away, kwim?

 

You are right.  I have always taken the position that her outside writing should stay hers.  I was just tempted by it, because of time constraints.  

 

I will look at listography again.  I don't remember why it didn't work.  Probably a part of it was that she had trouble choosing what to include in the lists.  Anything that makes her choose favorites is hard for her.  If you ask her favorite color, then she will name several, because she wouldn't want any color to be made to feel excluded.   :001_huh:  I'll look at your other suggestions, too.  I know I looked at Writing Tales previously, and I thought it would be too much for her.  I suspect that in our current circumstances, we (the two of us) are not quite ready for it.  But I like the idea of tag teaming assignments.  My husband might be willing to do this with her, too.

 

I love the idea of typing rewards.  I was looking online, and I see that you can get a small tablet for only $100 now.  I had no idea they came that cheap.  Add a wireless keyboard, and she has her own computer.  I'll be talking to dh about this, too.  

 

Thank you so much!  :seeya:

[PeterPan]

Oh my, I didn't realize you hadn't done Writing Tales!  I LOVE Writing Tales.  See if she's just about ready for WT2.  Unleash it though, like letting her skip the boring first draft and going directly to a creative draft.  Make your agreement that you'll finish the story every 2 week cycle, no matter what, and then at the end of the year illustrate and bind for a keepsake.  Make deals on how to cut, allowing her to choose whether she'd like to meet your minimum requirement (half page typed, one page, whatever) by selecting a scene, by stopping at that minimum length, by summarizing/condensing, etc.  Instead of saying she isn't ready for it, change how you use it to give her the pleasure of doing it without forcing the parts that aren't appropriate, kwim?  And if WT1 fits her better, do WT1, mercy.  Better to do WT1, maybe at a different pace even, and be HAPPY.  WT can be such a HAPPY program.  And I'll bet if she's doing Wordsmith Apprentice she could do WT with modifications, truly.  

 

Hmm, that indecision sounds sorta like some anxiety.  That's really something to put your finger on and get some coping techniques for.  That excessive perfectionism and anxiety can be really disabling.  Stop being perfectionist about programs.  Instead, be hack and change how you use them, giving her the pleasure of them without the requirement to do them perfectly, kwim?  What a good, non-threatening way to explore how her mind really works, with something like Listography, kwim?  If you both do them, you could contrast, playing up how whatever (linear, whatever) your thoughts are vs. hers.  Then she's owning who she is, rather than seeing the difference as a problem, kwim?  Maybe make the lists more complex to accommodate her categories.  The simple fact of list-making is terrific for the brain and a worthwhile exercise.  And organizing, wow can't get any more potent for the EF than that, lol.  People write whole essays on the inconsequentials of favorite vs. preferred for mundane categories of things, lol.  Don't knock the value of THINKING and categorizing like that, kwim?  If she's thinking and organizing her thoughts (favorites, almost favorites, can't bear to excludes, would be favorites if it weren't for the unfortunateness of the name, favorites only for reason of spelling, etc.), she just did lots of organizing and EF work, just like if she had organized an essay for history.  This is good stuff!   :)

 

Ooo yes, a tablet would be awesome!  My ds' kindle fire hdx can be had for $100-185 on ebay, depending on the storage amount.  It's a terrific, terrific device. I like the ipads too, and maybe there's a mini or something to be had for a good price.  I'm just saying for the money the kindle fire hdx is very nice. If it takes her 3-4 months to earn her credits/$$, then you are close to Christmas and could pair them that way, getting her over the hump to the device you have in mind.  :)

 

[Tracy]

Hmm, that indecision sounds sorta like some anxiety.  That's really something to put your finger on and get some coping techniques for.  That excessive perfectionism and anxiety can be really disabling.  Stop being perfectionist about programs.  Instead, be hack and change how you use them, giving her the pleasure of them without the requirement to do them perfectly, kwim?  What a good, non-threatening way to explore how her mind really works, with something like Listography, kwim?  If you both do them, you could contrast, playing up how whatever (linear, whatever) your thoughts are vs. hers.  Then she's owning who she is, rather than seeing the difference as a problem, kwim?  Maybe make the lists more complex to accommodate her categories.  The simple fact of list-making is terrific for the brain and a worthwhile exercise.  And organizing, wow can't get any more potent for the EF than that, lol.  People write whole essays on the inconsequentials of favorite vs. preferred for mundane categories of things, lol.  Don't knock the value of THINKING and categorizing like that, kwim?  If she's thinking and organizing her thoughts (favorites, almost favorites, can't bear to excludes, would be favorites if it weren't for the unfortunateness of the name, favorites only for reason of spelling, etc.), she just did lots of organizing and EF work, just like if she had organized an essay for history.  This is good stuff!   :)

 

Hmm.  Could be anxiety.  She does have anxious tendencies.  But my dh describes it as being able to see too many possibilities, and I have always thought it to be more of that.  For example, if you ask him about his favorite color, he will respond, "For what?"  You see, red is a nice color for socks, but not for houses.  He rarely ever has a preference, unless it is more comfortable, more efficient, etc.  Since she is so much like him, I have always just assumed it was like that for her.  But I will watch for possible anxiety, as it does show up in other areas.  

 

I do really love your idea of categorizing different kinds of favorites.  I'll have to see if I can figure out how to apply that.  I can see that this is really more my problem.  I am so in-the-box, and she is so . . . not.  And my box must be titanium-plated or something, because it is so hard to break out.  

[PeterPan]

Titanium plated, lol.  Well you're seeing it now, so it will come to you.  Like on colors for clothes vs. colors for houses vs. ...  That's organization.  You could do that in Inspiration with mindmapping.  It's the same process as any other kind of thought organization, and she's starting to see how complex her thoughts are and that her complex thoughts can be organized.  That's very worthwhile.  And then you go would be the SIMPLE answer, and then use that to write an intro, and bam you have this whole NPR-style essay on nothing but favorite colors!  It can totally work.  :)

 

You're doing great just seeing it.  You'll get it.  :)

[Tiramisu]

My dd is 9 and I had planned WT because it worked so well with her reluctant writer sister. She won't use it, so I've been looking at a lot of other things. Boo-hoo, though, because I really love WT but I need her heart in it if such a thing is possible.

 

I'm expecting Just Write books 1 and 2 in the mail tomorrow. It looks like it could be fun and creative with guidance and NOT overwhelming. The books are super cheap used on Amazon. You can check out samples to see what level might suit your needs.