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Susan Wise Bauer

Fourth edition of TWTM...here's your chance to weigh in!

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I just pulled up an old thread to read through again and realized that linking to it here might be a good idea. This thread discusses why TWTM recommends some of the things it does. That was one thing I felt was missing from the book, of which I only own the 1st edition. It would be fantastic to have explanations of the reasons for narration, dictation, copy work, outlining, when to pause in math and solidify facts and understanding before moving on, why grammar is important, etc. The thread also discusses study skills, which would be a fantastic addition.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/254880-sonan-in-mass-come-and-elaborate/

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I am sure most people here are familiar online courses / MOOCs. There are a couple sites that aggregate available courses. One that might be usefully for home educators is https://www.coursebuffet.com It organizes MOOCs like a university courses catalog so one has a general idea if a course is a 101 type courses or an upper level course. This makes it easier to compare courses directly and plan learning. 

 

There are lot of intro course that higher school age students could take.

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I missed a lot of the great PHP materials when I homeschooled the older two and I've been excited to use them the second time around.  One thing I've noticed when I look at all the pieces that fit together (FLL, WWE, SOTW, science, etc...) is that there is a lot of narrations/copywork for all the different subjects.  If I am trying to follow each of the curriculum as written my poor little boys will keel over and die.  I would love to see (and, maybe somebody has done this and I just haven't been around for a long time) a lesson plan that combines them all so that the writing is streamlined a bit.   WTM probably isn't the best place to do this, but my dream would be to have lesson plans using all the pieces like this http://www.memoriapress.com/sites/default/files/products/samples/KindergartenCurriculum_Sample2.pdfbut with all the PHP resources.  (I know, I don't want much!) :-)  My boys are in K, so you have until September to complete the first grade plans.  No pressure!

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Susan, 

 

I'd love to see how you tweaked the ideal to fit your family, your kids. You've now graduated three, right? I know I've had to tweak based on what I could do with a big family, on what my kids were doing (debate sucked a few extras like logic for a few years), on what life handed us (hello grief and single parenting) and then on what some of my kids were needing. One needed to be outsourced and I needed to be only the cheerleader. I know you've talked about that. 

 

I think this could be done a bit generically without identifying any children or particular problems. But even after homeschooling yourself, teaching and parenting four different kids -- three high school graduation -- has to have caused you to rethink how this looks in the home. I'm all for ideal.  That's what I loved about WTM 17 years ago! It was an ideal with meat on the bones that I could start to implement in my home. But how and when and where to tweak when necessary? I know what we did, but I'd sure love to hear what y'all did and I know newer homeschooling parents would benefit from the perspective you now have. 

 

And while I'm at it and thinking back over our 17 years of home education so far, thank you for writing and publishing. Thank you all those weekends away from family speaking and thank you for you foresight to create this community which has been an invaluable resource. 

 

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I missed a lot of the great PHP materials when I homeschooled the older two and I've been excited to use them the second time around.  One thing I've noticed when I look at all the pieces that fit together (FLL, WWE, SOTW, science, etc...) is that there is a lot of narrations/copywork for all the different subjects.  If I am trying to follow each of the curriculum as written my poor little boys will keel over and die.  I would love to see (and, maybe somebody has done this and I just haven't been around for a long time) a lesson plan that combines them all so that the writing is streamlined a bit.   WTM probably isn't the best place to do this, but my dream would be to have lesson plans using all the pieces like this http://www.memoriapress.com/sites/default/files/products/samples/KindergartenCurriculum_Sample2.pdfbut with all the PHP resources.  (I know, I don't want much!) :-)  My boys are in K, so you have until September to complete the first grade plans.  No pressure!

 

I completely agree with this post.  

 

I really think there needs to be some clarification about how all of these pieces and parts fit together.    There seems to be a huge amount of overlap in these programs which leads to inefficiency and redundancy in the day.   Is one really suppose to do it all?  If not, where should we make the cuts?  

 

Take the act of narrating for example:  FLL, WWE, and the SOTW AG all have narration assignments which are VERY, VERY similar.   If I am narrating daily in SOTW, do I still need to narrate in WWE?   If not, which do I cut?   If I just do the narrations from SOTW (or science)---will that be enough?  

 

Take the act of dictation for example:  FLL, WWE, and my spelling program all have heavy dictation assignments.   Do I need to do SO much dictation?    That is a lot of time spent daily on dictation.  Is it all needed?  If not, what do I cut?  What if my child says their hand is about to fall off?  Which exercise should I give priority to? 

 

And what about other recommendations in the WTM such a friendly letter writing?   How does that fit in with all of this other writing?  

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To piggy-back off of redsquirrel, I would pay a lot of money for your lectures in book format. I am not an auditory learner in the slightest, so while I value what you have to say, my mind would just wander while listening. Bonus points if it's available on Kindle. ;)

 

Yes, yes, yes!  (Though I prefer hard copy.)

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Specific lesson plans, so I can be confident that I'm getting everything done each week.  I realize this could be tricky as so many people use different curricula,  but something similar to Memoria Press's grade lesson plans would make it easier to play-out on a daily basis.  This might not fit in the book but could be a helpful tool to offer on its own.

 

 

 

 

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I don't know if this post is too late in coming to be helpful, or if I have enough experience to weigh in. But here's my thoughts.

 

First of all, THANK YOU for the WTM. I fell in love with it when I read it, because it made me fall in love with teaching my children. It gave me vision, guidance, clear how-to's, and the resources I needed to set out on my homeschooling journey. I loved reading about a language-rich education and teaching my kids to think and learn. These have continually been my goals and guideposts. I have 3 sons, ages 6, 4, and 2. My oldest two are in 1st grade and K. I credit our success so far and enjoyment of learning to you.

 

Our favorites:

OPGTTR - I personally LOVED your quote to the effect that "Teaching reading is simple." You gave me such confidence and I didn't worry or stress unnecessarily. My oldest was reading at 4, and his brother at 3 because he wanted to join in on reading lessons too.

Singapore Math - both my sons did start in K. Math is their favorite subject. I liked your approach though that K is really preparation for 1st grade work.

We have loved supplementing it with Miquon Math, using Cuisenaire Rods.

FLL, SOTW, Zaner-bloser Handwriting, La Clase Divertida. Spelling Workout is okay so far. The DK Animal Encyclopedia has been a great spine for science. Guest Hollow's Anatomy Jr has also been great, along with the Dover Anatomy coloring books.

 

I also like Memoria Press's Enrichment for K and 1st. We've all enjoyed the art, poetry, literature, extra reading and science and art activities from these.

 

I couldn't get in to Slow and Steady for PreK or the PreK/K science books you recommended - I think Mudpies to Magnets was one. We loved R&S preschool Workbooks.

 

My favorite resources for read-alouds have been Honey for a Child's Heart and The Read-Aloud Handbook.

 

A few things I'd enjoy hearing more from you on:

-Resources and how-to's for nature study

-Recommendations and how-to for memorization. (We've loved the poetry memorization in FLL 1 this year. I found SCM Scripture Memory Box and that method has been helpful for Scripture as well as in other areas.) I guess this is an area I wish could go more smoothly and routinely in my home.

-Encouragement/advice for homeschooling while pregnant or with newborns and toddlers. Advice for scheduling and ways to manage a growing family.

 

Thank you for sharing your experience and wisdom!

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I read the first few pages of comments and skipped to the end. I'm another one that prefers the 1st edition.

 

If there is a 4th revised edition, I think you should add pictures of the way the notebooks are set up - that would've helped me tremendously.

 

Just an observation - it seems there are a lot of new things available for a Classical Education, it is a bit ironic. :)

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Possible, but ease can't be the only consideration.  One look at the high school board is the proof that other textbooks are somehow equally accessible to parents. 

 

Yes and no. 

 

I avoided using Apologia for all the usual reasons. I mean, I REALLY never wanted to use it. But using the highschool text requires the parent to act as teacher, helping the student pull out the relevant info to study, etc etc. Even using lesson plans and tests I bought from Kolbe it didn't work out for us because I'm not teaching him, he doesn't want me to, and our lifestyle is such we needed independent materials. So after he failed his first test (over 5 chapters) we are now using Apologia because it is broken down into manageable chunks and has all the scaffolding he needs. 

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We have strictly followed TWTM for five years now and are pleased with the recs taken from it.  Literature recs have been great along with many, many other texts we have used, including:

 

Singapore Math

Rod and Staff

WWE

First Language Lessons

Spelling Workout

SOTW (my daughter loves these and reads them in her free time!)

 

 

I wanted to post here to let you know that I actually ordered the Delta Science Human Machine kit to use this year and it was awful.  Materials were cheap, activity books were boring, and items in the kit could have easily been purchased at a dollar store for much, much less.  We also did not have as much success as desired with the Slinky Science Fingerprint kit, despite repeated effort.  Finally, Physics Experiments for Children by Mandell had great, simple concepts but some materials/methods were just too antiquated. 

 

I realize I am in the minority here, but I dislike Latina Christiana and would love additional Latin choices.  My children have been taught a foreign language since kindergarten and when we started Latina Christiana (4th grade), my daughter even noted how verb conjugation is taught in a disjointed manner.  It also seemed strange that vocabulary was not taught in a parallel fashion, e.g. "son/daughter" in the same chapter or at least in closely sequenced chapters. 

 

My last request is similar to previous poster who noted how hard it is to coordinate all the narratives that are listed daily--history, science, literature, copywork, etc.  I required my fourth grader do it all and she quickly learned to dislike writing.  We've modified, but I still wonder are we doing enough writing, how can we evaluate writing, what am I looking for in narratives as the child ages, and so on.  Any information on developing and assessing writing skills would be great. 

 

Cannot begin to express our gratitude for all your hard work in these books.  We reference them again and again!

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I missed a lot of the great PHP materials when I homeschooled the older two and I've been excited to use them the second time around. One thing I've noticed when I look at all the pieces that fit together (FLL, WWE, SOTW, science, etc...) is that there is a lot of narrations/copywork for all the different subjects. If I am trying to follow each of the curriculum as written my poor little boys will keel over and die. I would love to see (and, maybe somebody has done this and I just haven't been around for a long time) a lesson plan that combines them all so that the writing is streamlined a bit. WTM probably isn't the best place to do this, but my dream would be to have lesson plans using all the pieces like this http://www.memoriapress.com/sites/default/files/products/samples/KindergartenCurriculum_Sample2.pdfbut with all the PHP resources. (I know, I don't want much!) :-) My boys are in K, so you have until September to complete the first grade plans. No pressure!

This is exactly what I was talking about in my post on page 6 (I think), on my difficulty in understanding how to implement WTM writing. When I tried to streamline, just doing narration in history (SOTW) and occasionally in reading, and dictation and copy work from reading, it made my son dislike history (when what he really disliked was writing.) :( so although it made a lot of sense to me, I felt like there were negatives to either the WWE workbook approach or the WWE IG approach.

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This is exactly what I was talking about in my post on page 6 (I think), on my difficulty in understanding how to implement WTM writing. When I tried to streamline, just doing narration in history (SOTW) and occasionally in reading, and dictation and copy work from reading, it made my son dislike history (when what he really disliked was writing.) :( so although it made a lot of sense to me, I felt like there were negatives to either the WWE workbook approach or the WWE IG approach.

 

We did the narration questions orally for SOTW, not in writing. Then used WWE for written narration and dictation. 

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We did the narration questions orally for SOTW, not in writing. Then used WWE for written narration and dictation. 

And then what did you do for FLL??   It again schedules more narrations, copywork, and dictation.  

 

My point is, there is a ton of overlap in all of these programs.   I can see keeping narration assignments in the history books.   (As you said, they can easily be done orally.)   And, I don't really know of a better way to gauge comprehension and encourage listening other than narrations.   So I think they need to stay in history.

 

BUT---it seems to me that writing and grammar are very closely related.  It feels very disjointed having them as separate programs.    Ideally, I would love one "open and go" book.   And ideally, I would love it if the copywork/dictation assignments in the writing program reinforced what we were learning with grammar.  

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And then what did you do for FLL??   It again schedulesmore narrations, copywork, and dictation.  

 

My point is, there is a ton of overlap in all of these programs.   I can see keeping narration assignments in the history books.   (As you said, they can easily be done orally.)   And, I don't really know of a better way to gauge comprehension and encourage listening other than narrations.   So I think they need to stay in history.

 

BUT---it seems to me that writing and grammar are very closely related.  It feels very disjointed having them as separate programs.    Ideally, I would love one "open and go" book.   And ideally, I would love it if the copywork/dictation assignments in the writing program reinforced what we were learning with grammar.  

 

Honestly, I don't remember. I THINK I skipped copywork/narration in FLL. I just remember doing sentence diagramming and such in that. 

 

That said, we switched to CLE for grammar/language arts at some point in elementary school. 

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I would love and appreciate more guidance as to how to "follow the rules  for composition taught in the writing program which the student should be using concurrently."  This is from the logic stage history chapter.  It seems the student is to apply what he/she is learning in Writing With Skill, for example, to the summaries they are writing for history and science?  Is that right? More information on this would be great.  Looking forward to the 4th edition :)

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So, do we have an expected release date yet??  

 

I just came online to ask the same question! Any word on when we might be seeing the new edition?

 

I mean, I already got myself The Story of Science, The History of the Renaissance World, and new edition of WEM.  They are wearing off, I need a new SWB fix!  ;)  :D

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I just came online to ask the same question! Any word on when we might be seeing the new edition?

 

I mean, I already got myself The Story of Science, The History of the Renaissance World, and new edition of WEM.  They are wearing off, I need a new SWB fix!  ;)  :D

 

I've been itching for the answer to the same question!

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And then what did you do for FLL??   It again schedules more narrations, copywork, and dictation.  

 

My point is, there is a ton of overlap in all of these programs.   I can see keeping narration assignments in the history books.   (As you said, they can easily be done orally.)   And, I don't really know of a better way to gauge comprehension and encourage listening other than narrations.   So I think they need to stay in history.

 

You're right; you will automatically get overlap of assignments if you use more than one program for LA; that's when you have to make the choice -- like you have here in keeping Dictation with History studies -- of what to cut and what to keep. :)

 

I think what is the difficulty here is wanting to use several programs in order to use the "best" bits from each; if you decide that is what works best for your family, the downside is a measure of disjointedness… Or, a lot of extra time and effort on the part of the parent-teacher to blend the "best bits" together more seamlessly -- but, that's not open-and-go. The big take-away to me is that you just have to *choose* WHAT aspect is most important to you:

- open and go?

- integrated?

- best bits/no overlap?

- good fit for your student's learning style?

- good fit for your teaching style?

Because no option offers it all (and odds are, even if one program DID do all of those "best bits" in one place -- it wouldn't match up with the student, who would pitch a fit over the program every day… sigh… ;) )

 

 

BUT---it seems to me that writing and grammar are very closely related.  It feels very disjointed having them as separate programs.    Ideally, I would love one "open and go" book.   And ideally, I would love it if the copywork/dictation assignments in the writing program reinforced what we were learning with grammar.  

 

Some ideas for integrated Writing/Grammar programs:

- Treasured Conversations -- combines Dictation, Grammar, Writing; open-and-go

- English Lessons Through Literature -- combines Reading, Dictation, Grammar, Writing; open-and-go

- Sonlight LA -- combines Reading, Dictation, Grammar -- LA instruction in each Core is not sequential, structured, or complete

- Rod & Staff -- combines Writing & Grammar; open-and-go

Voyages in English -- combines Writing & Grammar; open-and-go

- Write Source -- combines Writing & Grammar -- a handbook (and supplemental workbook) -- NOT a laid-out program, so NOT open and go

- ideas from Ruth Beechick -- tips for adapting whatever you are already using for Reading into Dictation & Grammar uses

- Learning Language Arts Through Literature, Total Language Plus -- both are "LA comprehensive programs", connecting all LA areas (Literature Studies, Grammar, Writing, Spelling, Vocabulary) with the work of Literature being read/studied; open-and-go

Edited by Lori D.
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No pub date yet but I will keep you posted...

 

:hurray: Thanks for the word!

 

Really, here's the deal: I'm planning for 9th grade, and I need to know whether to pull WTM 3rd edition off the shelf and re-read the high school section (hopefully the binding will hold together for one more read-through!) or whether I get to read the Rhetoric stage section in the new book.  That's all.  ;)  :D

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:hurray: Thanks for the word!

 

Really, here's the deal: I'm planning for 9th grade, and I need to know whether to pull WTM 3rd edition off the shelf and re-read the high school section (hopefully the binding will hold together for one more read-through!) or whether I get to read the Rhetoric stage section in the new book. That's all. ;) :D

:lol:

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:hurray: Thanks for the word!

 

Really, here's the deal: I'm planning for 9th grade, and I need to know whether to pull WTM 3rd edition off the shelf and re-read the high school section (hopefully the binding will hold together for one more read-through!) or whether I get to read the Rhetoric stage section in the new book.  That's all.  ;)  :D

 

Read it in the 3rd edition, and then when the 4th comes out it'll be fresh in your mind so you'll easily notice all the changes. :D

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I'm guessing late summer? But, you know, I could probably arrange prepub copies for a FEW of you...

 

This is why we need a like button for your posts. :)

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Well, now I know what I am getting myself for a late birthday gift! It will be a good refresher for me as we officially (that is, will need to register with the state) begin HS next school year!

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I'm guessing late summer? But, you know, I could probably arrange prepub copies for a FEW of you...

Can't wait! Starting the high school planning soon. Who am I kidding? I've been planning since we started but now I'm really starting starting...or I will once I get a new book!

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I'm excited!!!!! I am so curious to see the science. Really really curious to see the SCIENCE, and how it fits in with the new science section in the new TWEM.

 

I've always been interested to read the logic level and high school science of each edition.

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I'm guessing late summer? But, you know, I could probably arrange prepub copies for a FEW of you...

 

:drool5:

 

I have a 9th grader next fall.  What do you want? Her birth certificate? SSN? DNA? A free farm hand for a month? Whatever you need!

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I've been waiting for this update for years!

 

I should go re-read the edition I have in the meantime...

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I can't wait!! I am going to be starting next year with a 5, 6, and 8 year old....so I need all the resources I can get!  In the meantime...I will have to be happy with my 3rd edition!

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about ready to finish our first history cycle so I can't wait for it to come out. Would LOVE it if it were in time for me to read before school next year!

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:iagree: with all above comments since SWB's. What must one do to be worthy of a prepub?!  :drool5:

 

First time homeschooling next fall, with a 4th and a 6th grader...  :confused: would *really* love the new edition in time to prepare!!!

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I read all up until the seventh page. Deleting as I was so late to the party!

 

Thanks for all the great ideas and books over the years!

Edited by Silver Brook

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Hello!

 

Where are recommended books on Geography?!   I noticed your own homeschool schedule (shown at the end of the book) shows your youngest child studied Geography as a separate subject. But it is not covered well in WTM all that much.  Why? 

 

We like "Usborne Book of World Geography" but it seems out of print.  You can still buy used copies though.

 

"D'Aulaires' Book of Greek Myths" just did NOT work out for us.  Checked it out of the library for a couple of weeks.  It did not resonate with the kids at all.  Some of the pics were rather disturbing too (like the centaurs beating their children).  I am sure this is a matter of taste though.

 

I don't see the original "Winnie the Pooh" or "World of Christopher Robin" books, nor Beatrix Potter stories. 

 

 

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Please have a look at the "Classic Starts" series.  I've looked at the "Greek Myths" and "Roman Myths."  They look good.  Haven't read them to my kids yet, but I think they will be good for Grades 1-2 depending on their reading/listening level.

 

Also, The Reading Lesson is an EXCELLENT phonics primer.   Please check it out and consider adding as a resource in the next edition! 

 

Thanks for your awesome books!

Edited by bluejay

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I'm guessing late summer? But, you know, I could probably arrange prepub copies for a FEW of you...

 

:001_tt1: I was searching to see if a date had been set yet. I am so excited for the new edition!! 

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I would suggest writing the "revised edition(s)" as a separate book/notebook/title and stop revising the same book - to keep the integrity of the original. I don't know how you would do it; you may just separate the curriculum recommendation and revise just this part. To keep this separate part an integral part of The Well Trained Mind, use the title, name it TWTM Curriculum Evolution or something similar. If you want to include your followers' recommended curricula - do it using the same concept, print a separate but integral part that is connected by TWTM title, like TWTM Followers Curricula Choice etc. This way the HS world will end up with an encyclopedic series with few volumes of different TWTM instead of one volume which is constantly edited and revised, and which makes all previous editions obsolete. Just another viewpoint here. Disclosure: I have not read the above thread yet.

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I would suggest writing the "revised edition(s)" as [snip]

 

The book will be available in 3 days... I think it's too late for any suggestions for the 4th edition at this point.

 

But, the good news is, the book should be available in 3 days! :)

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Sometimes Barnes and Nobles put books on the shelf a day or two early. I check for the book every time I check my mail. B&N and my post office are in the same building.

 

I am so curious to read the science. It isn't about hoping that it will be anything specific, but just that I am very very curious after reading the TWEM and the science history book.

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I feel kind of silly-- my oldest is going into 10th grade, we pretty much have a groove going here . . . but I think I'm more excited about this book arriving in my mailbox tomorrow than I was for the latest Harry Potter  . . . :D

 

At least I have the Perseid & North Delta Aquariid Metoer Showers to distract me tonight, along with the Olympics, plus my current book  . . . 

 

 

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