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Fourth edition of TWTM...here's your chance to weigh in!


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Dear boardies:

 

OK, I want to hear it.

 

What resources do you really WISH had been recommended in TWTM, but that I inexplicably omitted?

 

What resources would you have left out? (You know, the ones I said were great but drove you batty?)

 

If YOU were writing the fourth edition, what would YOU change?

 

Standing by,

 

SWB

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Hurray, 4ed!!!

 

One of the strengths of the WTM, imo, is that it pairs both the knowledge of HOW to homeschool with recommendations and resources that one can use to achieve a classical education.  Obviously, resource recommendations change over time and will need to be updated.  Please don't edit out the parts of the book that explain HOW to homeschool.  I specifically enjoy being able to share with friends how to systematically teach writing and history.  I often find myself referring back to 1ed for certain passages. I love and use many PHP products (OPG, FLL, WWE, SOTW, WEM, etc.) but 2ed and 3ed in some regards tilted more heavily towards resource recommendations and away from practical advice.

 

In terms of practical advice, a few small essays in the appendix would be lovely.  If you didn't want to go that route, then please add ads with detailed descriptions of some of the great audio lectures that have been produced.  I find myself pointing friends towards the Homeschooling the Real Child, Teaching Students to Work Independently, and Burning Out repeatedly. I also think something more detailed should be said about children with learning difficulties. Many parents have NO idea what resources are available to them through professionals or how to access them. 

 

My toddler is systematically destroying my kitchen right now, so I'll chime back in with my resource recommendations later....  I'm excited to see that a 4ed is in the pipeline!

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I own the 1st and 3rd editions and have read the 2nd. I just checked both books I have and neither includes a section on adapting a classical approach for students with learning disabilities or other special needs. I love TWTM as a general framework and it's definitely had a huge influence on my homeschooling over the past 8 years. The specific materials you've recommended, however, are not necessarily the best "fit" for my kids. My youngest child in particular needs programs designed as interventions. OPGTR, FLL, WWE, etc. are all great programs for neurotypical kids (and I've used the latter two successfully with my older students) but they won't meet the educational needs for my youngest child. 

 

Recommendations I would like to see in the 4th edition under Special Needs Homeschooling:

 

Memoria Press' new "Simply Classical" program

Lindamood-Bell LiPS, Seeing Stars, and Visualizing & Verbalizing (available through Gander Publishing)

Barton Reading System

Dancing Bears (reading) and Apples & Pears (spelling) from Promethean Trust

Verticy Writing

From Talking to Writing by Terrill Jennings and Charles Haynes with the student workbooks (available from Landmark Schools)

Dianne Craft's dysgraphia resources

Ronit Bird's math

 

I'm still at the beginning of helping a student with extensive SN's so hopefully moms with more experience will weigh in.

 

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I can't remember if you already give a nod to Singapore math or not, but just want to reiterate that it is fantastic for developing mathematical thinking. We always added some review and drill with other programs (Horizons, Life of Fred), but I really credit Singapore math for helping my kids to really understand mathematical concepts.

 

I tried Spelling Workout on your recommendation and became frustrated with it. It's been a few years, but as I recall my primary frustrations were puzzle-type activities to try to learn spelling (you can be good at spelling but bad at puzzles and be very frustrated with it), and I believe there were busywork things to keep whole classes busy that weren't really the best use of our time. The spelling program we settled with was Rod and Staff. They were more successful at teaching how the English language works. Grades 6,7, and 8 especially so with writings at the end of every chapter on where our language came from.

 

In Latin we went far with Latin for Children A,B, and C and then CAP's Latin Alive--they deserve a mention as being effective and kid-friendly (particularly LFC DVD's).

 

Those stand out to me. If I think of more I'll post again.

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Yay! :hurray:

 

I have the third edition.

 

DS loved Mary Pope Osborne's Tales from the Odyssey as a read-aloud in first grade. That, SOTW, "The Librarian Who Measured the Earth" (which you do have listed), and a book called Voices of Ancient Egypt were our favorite history resources.

 

Chapter 5 recommends memorizing some poetry; maybe you'd like to name some specific resources. So far, I like Poems to Learn by Heart best.

 

For the older grades, I would love to hear your take on the Art of Problem Solving materials.

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Art of Problem Solving for conceptual math (probably Pre-Algebra up for now since BA isn't fully out).

 

Song School Latin/Greek for younger tag-along siblings (and good memory work for older kids, too. About 3/4 of the Exploratory Latin Exam, and a good part of the NLE foundations vocabulary is covered and covered well in SSL 1 and 2).

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I agree with others on Song School Latin, and Tales from the Odyssey mentioned above. Also Michael Clay Thompson English, Building Foundations of Scientific Understanding, Getting Started With Latin, Miquon math, and All About Spelling.

 

Another great book we've used as a spine for a year of science is The New Way Things Work.

 

I also agree with others that more information on how to homeschool or recommendations of your lectures would be lovely.

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There are some things I would add if I were updating it. Most of them would be in the text, not the resources lists. Mostly, I am afraid you will take things out, things that we seemed to be the only ones doing, like Writing Strands and the independent project and the logic stage history list. I'll think about it and come back with specifics later, but I'm going to make a list in this post so I don't forget. European language exams, Sat. School, online resources, how to use flashcards effectively, Robinson's, assignment books, Conceptual Physics Hewitt sp?,college, how to design a high school science experiment, multiple independent projects, electronics kits and budding engineers, Draw Squad, how those foundational skills like dictation and Latin lead to academic study skills later, how people learn.

 

Nan

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Like Crimson Wife I would love to see a more extensive Special Needs chapter outlining good, research-based programs. A few paragraphs on when/how to recognize the typical reading program (of which OPGTR is one of the best imo!) isn't working and where to go from there. With 20% of people in the world having dyslexia, as proven by brain imaging and testing, dyslexia identification and remediation alone is a big topic that ought to be somewhere in there with teaching reading in the preschool and elementary years. Several of us on the WTM Struggling Learners board are trained Orton-Gillingham tutors now because we found it worked. And certain programs, like Barton Reading and Spelling, are particularly classical in how they approach things, with dictation and a strong emphasis on phonics. I'm sure those of us on the Struggling Learners board would be happy to help advise on those topics more specifically OR Susan Barton, the owner of the Barton Reading System is very approachable (just call her # on the website or e-mail her) and I wonder if she would be willing contribute to a small section on dyslexia and reading difficulties. 

 

Even just a few paragraphs one when/how to go about seeking testing to make sure learning issues are identified early would be nice. So many parents are told "they'll outgrow it" or "just wait, he'll learn to read/master multiplication when he's ready" and they miss a lot of opportunity to be on top of these things early on and then freak and feel they can't possibly fit in a classical education.

 

Simply Classical is a wonderful resource that ought to be listed. I found it to be a nice complement to TWTM. Not as practical in the everyday as TWTM but certainly inspiring and helpful in giving a starting point for providing a classical education to even children severe special needs. Her Memoria Press curriculums for special needs children are really quite lovely and look like something you would recommend anyway. 

 

To extend on what someone above said about your audio recordings you definitely must include the URL's for those under each appropriate subject! Specifically I would happily buy a 4th edition even though I have a perfectly good version already at home if you included your writing talks in essay form within the book! Those have been real gems, like above the tone of your talk helped but just the content was also good in helping me to understand exactly how writing instruction with a real live child would look. 

 

I'm so excited that an updated edition is coming out. TWTM has been our homeschooling bible from the start and I'm so glad I read it early on :) 

 

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Dicentra's pinned science threads for science resources. I love Nan's idea about how to design a science experiment, but maybe at all 3 levels instead of just high school?

 

I think a list of fantastic exploratory math books would be superb and really address the fact that many of us wannabe WTM-ers have to go elsewhere to look for resources because our kids tend to be more STEM-oriented. If a list of resources is too much, how about mentioning as dmmetler said, the AoPS books and authors like Martin Gardner, Ian Stewart, Polya?

 

I have some elementary-high school resources bookmarked in my siggy too if that is helpful. I sold my third edition in favor of the first...can't remember if there is already a mention of Julie Brennan's living math resources in the third?

 

ETA: another great science resource: ConceptualAcademy.com

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Coming back in as things occur to me--hope you don't mind.

 

I would list the free, printable cards that perfectly coordinate with all the chapters of all the SOTW books, even though the AG gives some, too. They are on Hannah's Homeschooling group on yahoo.

 

Also definitely agreeing with Mary Pope Osborne's Odyssey series--way better than the MTreehouse books. Dd LOVED these, and they stayed with her. She was one of the few in her public school 7th grade class to know the plot and characters of The Odyssey, all because of having listened to these  little gems in first grade (and multiple times, later, too).

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Imagine.more and others--are you at all familiar with how the Logic of English course (Denise Eide) uses the O-G system? Any thoughts on how this works for struggling learners?

 

If you're going to recommend LOE, then you should recommend Spalding, because I don't see how LOE would be any different/better than Spalding (and Spalding is WAY less expensive, with way fewer moving parts).

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Fourth edition, YAY!

 

I agree completely with prairiewindmomma about how wonderful TWTM is for helping parents understand the principles of classical homeschooling as well as providing resource recommendations, and I also hope that it will continue to do both.

 

I would love to see Math Mammoth included.  I don't know if it was available when the 3rd edition came out.

 

Regarding rhetoric stage mathematics, you recommend that students "who don't plan to use advanced mathematics in later life and who aren't trying for selective college admissions" stop taking math after algebra 2.  I believe most four-year schools (even less selective ones) recommend or require four math credits.  Someone who's had experience as a parent of high school students can feel free to correct me - this is from my impressions as a former classroom teacher.  

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Have you included a games section? I have played a lot of games with my kids throughout the year and even taught a math games class to homeschool students. Quality games go a long way in teaching logic, strategy, planning, and math and language skills. I have learned about a lot of the games from these boards. 

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I would love to know why. Don't worry about my feelings, I have elephant hide by now. :)

 

SWB

 

For the simple reason that I read this edition first and it was this edition that made me excited about homeschooling (I was a very nervous homeschooler when we began). I bought the third edition because I was curious. We recently moved to a house that is half the size of our previous home...I had to be ruthless with the book culling. It went to a good home, Susan. I made sure of that!  :laugh: 

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In an ideal world I would move you to Europe to write a section about homeschooling highschool in Europe. :)

As we are in a less ideal world I agree to prefer a 'how to' above curriculum lists.

i like great book lists, but need them divided per language.

I'm not great in setting goals.

So my goal is often: pass the exam.

How to design a course to your child.

 

Maybe I need a crossover between WEM and the Highschoolsection.

We don't have credits or transcripts here, only exit exams. And WEM doesn't cover math or science...

 

Just some whishes :)

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Rather than more resources, I would like more how-to sections, especially for high school.  How do I grade?  How do I evaluate subjects that are more subjective?  Expanded information on how to do a transcript.  Course descriptions?  Do I need to actually write them?  What should be included?  How do I title non-traditional courses?

 

Basically, an expanded section on how to do all the paperwork for high school, and if you could give me ideas on how to keep it organized, that would be spectacular.

 

 

 

 

 

I need to give this many more than the single like I'm allowed.

 

Entered the high school realm this year, and JudoMom describes the areas I feel least equipped to handle. It's so different from the rest of homeschooling K–8 for me.

 

Erica in OR 

 

ETA: I'd also like to throw Orberg's Lingua Latina: Familia Romana out there as a Latin resource to include. Not sure if it was in the 3rd ed. or not.

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Imagine.more and others--are you at all familiar with how the Logic of English course (Denise Eide) uses the O-G system? Any thoughts on how this works for struggling learners?

 

I haven't used it myself but I have looked at it. Like Slache I feel that circling the correct word vs writing it out does undermine the multi sensory aspect of O-G. Most programs use either index flashcards or letter tiles to manipulate words without requiring too much writing at first, the circling doesn't give the same benefit as moving physical letters around. 

 

I think maybe it would be best to start a specific thread on the Learning Challenges board to hash out the specifics of which programs should be recommended as a first course of action, back up, etc. There are several parents there with a wealth of education and experience to draw from and we could probably come up with better/more comprehensive/more concise feedback for you if we put our heads together and came up with an answer as a group. 

 

Personally I feel LOE would be fine for a young or mild-moderate dyslexic student, but that it's both too comprehensive (like it includes handwriting instruction) and too fast (progresses pretty quickly through the 70+ phonograms) for an older or severely dyslexic student. And OPGTR is such a solidly phonetic-based resource that I don't know that there's *enough* difference between how it and LOE work to justify trying LOE if OPGTR is truly not working for a kid. Typically what I recommend is OPGTR and if that doesn't work after 1-2 years or by age 7 then a parent needs a professional evaluation to uncover possible dyslexia or other issues. If it is dyslexia at that point I'd refer them straight to Barton Reading. I don't like to mess around with curriculums that just don't work and Barton by and large really does work. It's pretty impressive the way it's laid out, and I can see that it's even superior to the O-G program I was trained in actually, which is why I use Barton as our main spine and supplement with activities/extensions. Any program that can take an 11 year old kid who is illiterate, hearing impaired, intellectually disabled, dyslexic, and adhd and get her reading in 18 months while keeping her self-esteem intact and without requiring acrobatics on the part of me (the parent/teacher) is a solid program. It can be used on kids with just dyslexia even faster and more effectively with zero extended activities. 

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I get lost in the lists of curriculum. I wish the curriculum was listed separately in the back and the methods were made the centerpiece of each chapter. I prefer your audios because they get to the heart of the methods.

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Like quark, I keep my 1st edition WTM because of the 'how to' sections vs. the expanded list of which-curriculum-to-use in the 3rd. I still check out the 3rd because I think the logic & high school sections have a more info in them than the 1st.

 

I wonder if it would be worth it to publish a stand-alone high school WTM book (pulling some of WEM, fleshing out some of the things asked for here) for those of us who feel comfy with our 1st (or 2nd, or 3rd) editions of WTM who would love more SWB-for-high-school. 

 

It could include all of the stuff you covered in your recent WTM Online Conference series in Beyond The Elementary Years. :-)

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Regarding SN resources, there is a book my SIL had titled "Simply Classical: A Beautiful Education for Any Child" by Cheryl Swope. It's pretty new, and I haven't personally read it. But, it looked interesting when I glanced at her copy of it.


I have nothing else to offer this thread, as we don't do any formal lessons with our kiddos yet, so I don't have anything to rave about.


ETA: I shouldn't nurse and tell a kid how to do something and post, because I miss seeing PP mention it already. And now, of course, that I see others mention it, I am lusting after it even more than when I skimmed it in person. Why does my wish list get bigger every time I visit these boards? 

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Mind you, I would also like it if you'd simply make the first edition available for purchase in PDF format. That's probably not happening though.

 

Yeah, I'd guess not. :) Just so you know, I have absolutely no control, or say, in that particular department. TWTM was published by W. W. Norton, not Peace Hill Press, so Norton has complete authority over past editions, and making a previous edition available is not something you'll find a major NY publisher doing.

 

SWB

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I always recommend these... They've never let me down:

 

Galore Park -- quirky and solid math, science, English, Latin and French

Ellen McHenry -- great content made accessible and fun

Apples & Pears spelling -- easy to implement and really effective

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Oh, BFSU. It is an amazing science resource!

 

Agreed.

It doesn't follow the four-year science cycle, though.  But it's precisely why I decided not to follow the idea of the four-year science cycle matching up with history.  The sciences are integrated.  The edges of them blur into others.  (Bio-chem, physical chemistry...astronomy requires physics and chemistry...)  So teaching them in that integrated way appealed to me.

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Curricula we've loved that I don't think are in any of the earlier editions:

 

Rightstart math-great for 2e kids who have a hard time memorizing. Excellent  Very conceptual approach to arithmetic

Getting Started with Latin

Galore Park latin

Hewitt's Conceptual Physics

Vocabulary Cartoons-sorry but True Confessions-my kids found the Vocabulary from Classical Roots series dry as dust

Hakim history and science books

All About Spelling!!!  How could I forget-for the not-officially-dyslexic child who cannot even spell his own name but can read the NYT

 

I would love a list of "reading for the teacher"-books I'd consider that many of us here have found helpful:

 

Knowing and Teaching Elementary Mathematics by Liping Ma

Marva Collins books (classical method in a small classroom described, as well as "doing classical" with struggling learners)

WEM

James Loewen's Lies My Teacher Told Me (interesting) and the far more helpful "how to" guide from him: Teaching What Really Happened

 

Free reading books my own kids have really loved:

 

Asterix

Action Philosophers

 

I would love a section that lists recommended titles for RAs for middle and high schoolers.  I will list a few we've done that have been popular:

 

A Tale of Two Cities and other Dickens

A Short History of Nearly Everything and the shakespeare biography by Bill Bryson

The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks by Rebecca Skloot

The Gun by C J Chivers

All the James Herriott books

The Once and Future King

 

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All About Reading for phonics. It works really well together with Explode the Code. Perfect for struggling readers, or kinesthetic learners who need something hands on.

 

How about Spelling Power... I don't think that was in there.

 

R.E.A.L. Science Odyssey by Pandia Press

 

Books on how to teach math, for us teachers.

 

More STEM titles for the earlier grades...

 

It's funny, so many people recommended the 1st edition of WTM on here so I got that first but I really prefer the 3rd! Looking forward to the 4th! :) The resource lists are my favourite part. I love lists.  :hurray:

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I think you can get rid of Jackdaws. You may have, in the 3rd edition, but if you haven't, there's just no need when everything is online, IMO.

 

Have you looked at Science Shepherd as an alternative (not necessarily replacement )to Apologia?

 

In addition to Science Shepherd, how about Novare Science?  It integrates science and math.

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