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How do you know if spiral or mastery would be the best fit?


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All I know is, we've tried Mastery using MUS Alpha, and dd has been miserable. Since I put it away a few weeks ago and started using a combination of other things that I had on hand, teaching a variety of concepts, while reviewing the addition facts she'd learned and continuing to learn the rest, she's been much happier.

 

So...through trial and error here, I guess. :rolleyes:

 

Melissa

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I think spiral works really well for a child who is naturally math savvy. My ds 7 is doing Saxon 5/4 right now. He just seems to get concepts the first time very easily. Dd 5 did Saxon K last year with no problem, but is starting to struggle at the end of Saxon 1 right now. It seems like she needs more than just one lesson to get some concepts. When they come up for review she has forgotten them. I really like the spiral philosophy, but it isn't working for dd. I also think mastery would drive ds crazy, because once he learns something he wants to move on.

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After months of extensively researching & reviewing every math curriculum under the sun, I'd finally chosen a mastery-approach in R&S. Big mistake. My dd *dreaded* math because we were basically doing the same thing, day in & day out. Endless repetition. It only took a couple of weeks to realize that staying with R&S would have made my math-phobic dd dislike math even more. I switched to Horizons & she has been a much happier camper. Dare I say it...she even says that math is her FAVORITE subject now!!!

 

Now, to get around to your original question. How do you know if spiral or mastery would be the best fit? From my limited experience, I would say that if you try one approach & it honestly isn't working, then try the other approach. Or maybe add in some mastery elements with your spiral program. Math Mammoth has some good e-books that are mastery in approach that you could easily supplement with...and only print what you need. I do this whenever G needs extra practice on a topic.

 

HTH!

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This may not help but spiral nor mastery work with my ds. We use Singapore and I found that it didnt' work for Saxon by doing it and he cried he was so miserable. He also didn't like doing the same work over and over again in the mastery books. So I would say by trial and error.

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We tried the mastery approach with math (MUS) and it just brought ds to tears. Then we used a more spiral approach (both Exploring Mathematics & Singapore), and he was much more receptive to it -- which meant no more tears!

 

That is the beauty of homeschooling -- we aren't confined to one type of philosophy because that is what is required by a principal, school district or superintendent. And, we can use different methods for different subjects and for different kids based on their strengths, weaknesses, gifts and temperment -- and what God is calling us to do for them. When I find a tool that helps my child learn, I use it.

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I wonder if it has anything to do with the temperament of your child. My ds is what Cathy Duffy calls a "Wiggly Willy" and I am using a spiral curriculum both for Math (Horizons) and Language (CLE) for him. He is thriving with both of those because he is very easily bored and distracted. With a spiral approach, at least he gets several different kinds of activities in a lesson, and that helps with the boredom factor.

 

Now my dd, I have not quite figured her out yet. I am using Horizons K with her also, and she seems to be enjoying it, but it will be interesting to see how she does as it gets harder.

 

I think "I" am a spiral type learner myself, so I think that is part of the reason I like the style! :)

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How about coherent and logical.

 

I am sure you have probably read this before, but I have found it to be very helpful in my long search for the perfect math.

 

http://www.homeschoolmath.net/teaching/coherent-curriculum.php

 

I think there is a bit of trial and error that needs to go into finding the right math program for your child, but we also need to be convinced that the program we are using is worth the effort. I have had a terrible time with math. I have decided that the math approach that makes the most sense to me is incremental. Yes, it is cheating to give a different answer, but I have tried spiral and it was too disconnected and I tried mastery but it was too repetitive. I have tried games, living math, math with lots of manipulatives, fun math, mastery math, and thinking math. At the end of the day, the math that gets done is probably the best math of all.

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When I first started looking at what was out there, the mastery approach sounded like the way I would have wanted to learn. I chose Mastering Mathematics, a mastery program that really taught and incorporated past lessons as we went. By the end of 5th grade my oldest dd started complaining. I think she just needed something different. In Jan of her th grade, I switched her to another mastery based program, Lial's BCM and she is doing great! So just because you have having difficulty with a program doesn't mean you need to change your chosen teaching method.

 

hth

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I have a Perfect Paula and Sociable Sue on my hands, Horizons 2 has started to take her 1 hour to complete a front/back lesson worksheet but I suspect this is because ds3 is starting to want his own 'school' and my attention is not 100% or even 80% on her when she is doing her worksheet. I'm working hard to transition her to working more independently on the items she can.

 

Karen's comment today about switching from Horizons struck a nerve, I don't know if the quantity of time dd's taking to complete her work is approach related (incremental spiral) or that she just wants Mommy to continue to sit with her through the worksheet. I struggle all the time with how much to 'help' her, most of the time she just wants me to verbalize the work, "10 -8 is what, honey?" Lol. It's sweet and endearing but frustrating at the same time. Don't get me wrong, she's not having a problem with 10-8, that was just an example.

 

"C'mon honey, you know how to do this, just focus on it and get it done. Do you need me to explain something more?"

Her, "No."

Me, "Okay, how about 15 minutes and then we check your work?"

Her, "Okay."

then 15, 20, 30 minutes pass and she's not done. It's not always about the work itself but daydreaming or she's trying to do 2 problems in the first exercise and 3 of the second exercise and going back and forth instead of just working from start to finish on the first exercise and then go the second one. Sigh.

 

I just wanted to see if this was a warning sign, I think I'll sit with her more like I was and see if that helps. I just don't know how to transition to independency with a program that does have new concepts that have to be practiced and taught. Will she have to have her own math time separate from her younger brother? Thinking aloud again.

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I don't know if the quantity of time dd's taking to complete her work is approach related (incremental spiral) or that she just wants Mommy to continue to sit with her through the worksheet. I struggle all the time with how much to 'help' her, most of the time she just wants me to verbalize the work, "10 -8 is what, honey?" Lol. It's sweet and endearing but frustrating at the same time. Don't get me wrong, she's not having a problem with 10-8, that was just an example.

 

"C'mon honey, you know how to do this, just focus on it and get it done. Do you need me to explain something more?"

Her, "No."

Me, "Okay, how about 15 minutes and then we check your work?"

Her, "Okay."

then 15, 20, 30 minutes pass and she's not done. It's not always about the work itself but daydreaming or she's trying to do 2 problems in the first exercise and 3 of the second exercise and going back and forth instead of just working from start to finish on the first exercise and then go the second one. Sigh.

 

DD7 is also a Sociable Sue, and we have days just like this (like today, for example). I'm trying to get her to work more independently in math so that I can concentrate on some preschool one-on-one with DD3. Here's what I've started doing. At the beginning of our math time I'll look over the Horizons 2 page & estimate how much time I think it should take. Then I'll let G know that she will have x minutes (usually 30 or so) to complete math. If she's not finished with the worksheet at the end of that time, then the rest becomes "homework" (I always giggle at this idea, since everything we do is "home"work :))...meaning that when we finish with school in the afternoon, she has to complete the rest of the worksheet before she can start playing, etc. Since she's new to the concept of time management, I'll give gentle reminders of how much time she has left, or I'll break it down a bit more & say something like, "OK. These next two sections should take about 10 minutes." The time limit works extremely well if we are scheduled to do something really fun in the afternoon. Then on some days (like today), she's just daydreaming & dawdling no matter what.

 

I'm not sure if that helps you or not, but at least you know you're not alone. ;)

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Doesn't sound like it's the program, it sounds like she's not ready for that level of independence yet.

 

From my (very limited) experience, it's personality, personality, personality. My oldest, 8 in May, likes a brief lesson then silence and solitude. He sometimes leaves and comes back and hands it in. In over two years of lessons, I can count on one hand the number of problems he's gotten wrong.

 

I need to add a catagory to CD's labels: Donnie DawdlerNdaydream. :rolleyes:

 

My 6 yo needs constant 'get back on task cues' or he's done. The minute I walk away from the table, be it to refill my coffee or whatever... I can guarantee not a single problem will be done in my absence. Not one. He needs me to say, "Good job, Picasso. Read number 4 to me." "Okay, what does it want you to do?" "Right, difference means subtract." "Keep going." "Nice. Let's look at number 5. Read it aloud." And so on. If I give him 10 minutes to work on something and ignore him, he's sure to make careless mistakes, stop in the middle of the problem and go on to the next, etc. Sometimes I feel like I should record my voice saying "focus" every 1.5 minutes. :o

 

He lacks the maturity and capacity to think too many steps ahead. In his defense, if he were in public school he would be a kinder, because of a late Sept birthday. And he is doing Singapore 1b and Horizons 2 book 1. So despite his dawdling, he does get a fair amount done. But I hold his hand and offer lots of prompts. I don't see how he'll make that huge of a leap in another year (C's age). Whereas if I even say, "How's it going?" to my 8 oldest he glares at me with pleas for silence, or says, "Mom... I'm trying to think."

 

Personality, personality, personalty. ;)

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I also have the same problem with my ds. There are plenty of times that I absolutely have to leave him because my 1 yo is writing on the wall, writing on the mirrror with deodorant, licking the floor, etc., only to come back and find that he has done maybe 2 problems.

 

We are about 1/2 year ahead in Horizons - we just started 3rd grade before Christmas, and I am finding that there are more and more problems. Actually, I started noticing it in the second half of 2nd grade. At the time, somebody somewhere on the internet gave me permission to cross out some of the problems :), and so I regularly do that on some of the work that I know my ds has mastered. Sometimes I tell him that I will cross some out, but for every problem he misses, he will have to do one of the crossed out ones. That has really helped with his carelessness. Also, offering an incentive for finishing helped - like "You can have your snack when your math is finished." or "You can have a 10 minute break" or whatever it takes to keep him motivated.

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For the first question: I think each has its place depending on the needs of the child. I had one dd who needed spiral for a while as she was learning basic concepts. She is now in a mastery program with her sister, and I personally enjoy that more because it lends itself more to our creating a math environment in the home (one topic at a time is easier to enrich.) She definitely needed that spiral then, though. Her sister never did well with spiral. You'll often find when you find someone vehemently behind one approach or the other they many have only one child (or all of their children are very similar, lucky for them.) :D Of course, I don't go in for the learning style types, so I just base my choices on what teaches them math effectively.

 

As for the transitioning/ brother issues, some unsolicited advice: I just want to put this one thought out there - in parenting in general, there are times to transition, and there are times to just get on with it. Once you have completed the teacher manual portion with her, I don't think 7 is too young to be expected to finish the remainder of each set on her own. I find that sometimes my dc balk at my attempts to change things slowly, and I just have to set the ground rules firmly. I would just lay out your expectations and then follow through. I do think, for math especially, you will always have to have a time to sit and teach the new concepts first. After that, most programs have a set for dc to complete independently, as Horizons does, which provides a perfect way to practice working independently.

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I don't know if the quantity of time dd's taking to complete her work is approach related (incremental spiral) or that she just wants Mommy to continue to sit with her through the worksheet.

 

15, 20, 30 minutes pass and she's not done.

 

I just wanted to see if this was a warning sign, I think I'll sit with her more like I was and see if that helps. I just don't know how to transition to independency with a program that does have new concepts that have to be practiced and taught. Will she have to have her own math time separate from her younger brother? Thinking aloud again.

 

Honestly, I think it's good practice. I never noticed how much excessive hand-holding I'd been giving my youngest until this year. By 3rd grade (I know yours is 2nd), her sisters could do far more for longer stretches independently. We're in the process of adjusting to more independent work and it's going well, but I think I slacked off in this area with her and if I don't correct it now, trouble's ahead. The math curriculum that I use, BJU, has some work that is expressly independent, and she needs to be doing exactly that.

 

I think they need to practice staying on track so that by the time they're in 4th-6th grades, they can get through a lesson quickly. By then, if you still need to be nearby, it will be a real time juggle and you'll know it's unneccessary, which won't help things.

 

I think checking on her every 5 minutes or so would be better, then gradually work up to maybe 15 minutes by 3rd grade. Rough estimates, here, as everyone's different. It could be that your dd will get in the swing of working on her own efficiently for longer stretches more quickly. It seems like she's already trying to work out a system, with the switching back and forth (she'll soon figure out if it works for her or not). My dd likes to go through and do everything she thinks is easy first.

 

Having a recess or snack time right after math is completed helps a lot, too. :) Having a clock in front of them, and knowing this is expected to take 20-30 minutes, helps as well. (I don't know if Horizons really takes an hour, but this is the length of time I would expect my 2nd or 3rd grader to be able to focus on independent math). I also find it has to be early to mid-morning to get finished in a timely manner - later means slower work, here, every single time.

 

I wouldn't switch math programs because of this. I'd try to reschedule her math workbook time for a time when you can be interrupted enough to check on her frequently and make sure she's steadily working - and that probably isn't during ds's math time. It sounds to me, other than this post, that you've been happy with Horizons so far. Switching curriculums really isn't worth it unless it's really not working, IMHO. Hopefully some other Horizons users can give you some input.

 

I chose BJU because I am *not* willing to teach a spiral math program. *I* like mastery. I can make BJU seem spiral, though, by relying heavily on the reviews workbook (which is, in effect, spiral review). But teaching it? No, I need to wrap my head around one thing before moving on, and so did my oldest. So this is what we chose. Plenty of people use different curriculums for different kids, but I need to keep it as simple as possible. So even though they've used the same curriculum, they've used it in vastly different ways.

 

Good luck, no stress!!

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My dd likes to go through and do everything she thinks is easy first.

 

Mine too ;)

 

Having a recess or snack time right after math is completed helps a lot, too. :) Having a clock in front of them, and knowing this is expected to take 20-30 minutes, helps as well. (I don't know if Horizons really takes an hour, but this is the length of time I would expect my 2nd or 3rd grader to be able to focus on independent math).

 

Thank you, thank you, thank you for saying that! Even when I sit with her it's 45 minutes, I think it is the quantity of problems though.

 

I *really* don't want to change, Horizons is the first math program we've tried and I think overall it's going to work for us. I know that if I put BJU Math in front of dd, she'd LOVE it, not because of style, format or presentation- but the number of problems to finish. She could easily do a front/back page in 15-20 minutes, if it would even take her that long!

 

Thank you for your post!

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Mine too ;)

 

 

 

Thank you, thank you, thank you for saying that! Even when I sit with her it's 45 minutes, I think it is the quantity of problems though.

 

I *really* don't want to change, Horizons is the first math program we've tried and I think overall it's going to work for us. I know that if I put BJU Math in front of dd, she'd LOVE it, not because of style, format or presentation- but the number of problems to finish. She could easily do a front/back page in 15-20 minutes, if it would even take her that long!

 

Thank you for your post!

 

Jessica,

 

With Horizons it might not even be the quantity of problems as it is the repetitiveness of that quantity. I don't use Horizons per se but I've used their workbooks as extra practice and I found that the type of problems day after day leave the student feeling like 'gee didn't I just do this'. When that happens some kids start making careless mistakes, often leading one to believe they need even MORE practice, and sometimes kids daudle. If you want to switch to BJU, by all means, it's a very good program. If you don't want to switch, start by trying to reduce the number of problems, but be sure to pick a few of each type. Maybe do all the odds or all of the new concept and then only the evens of the review, something like that.

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I'm in the Depends on the Child group. MUS is mastery, but it's also for visual learners. We combine this with Singapore Math and I find the two a good combination as I get mastery and one that's not really mastery or spiral in the pure sense of spiral, but I would have said spiral.

 

None of my kids fit neatly into Cathy Duffy's categories, so I mix and match. I'd love to have one who was more of a perfectionist, but I know there are two sides to every coin. To go back to KPzz (former board member on the old boards), if your dd's eyes are shining and she's getting it, I'd stick with what you have. Also, I have to agree with the poster that your dd may not be ready for that level of independence.

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I have one child which neither spiral nor mastery works all the time. She's getting better, but I still often have to do both or a combination of the two in order for her brain to register the info. When she was tested in K, they said she was equally all the categories of learning, a little auditory, a little visual, etc. I was told to sing, dance, draw, talk, build,.... go mad! LOL. As her brain has grown, she has become more auditory and is much easier to teach. Her independence has grown by leaps and bounds as well. But even after all this time, I'm still unsure which to choose. :eek:

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At our house and at age 9, I am just now beginning to be able to see some independence. One dd needs me more that the other still, but I am seeing a little more self motivation in both. I actually saw it at 8 in the younger one, but the older one is getting a little better.

 

I do know that both dd do want me to be there. Participating or not, my presence is required in order to get the work accomplished.

 

I have done both spiral and mastery math and couldn't recommend one over the other. I see pros and cons in both. The end result is that they will know math.

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Mine too ;)

I *really* don't want to change, Horizons is the first math program we've tried and I think overall it's going to work for us. I know that if I put BJU Math in front of dd, she'd LOVE it, not because of style, format or presentation- but the number of problems to finish. She could easily do a front/back page in 15-20 minutes, if it would even take her that long!

 

 

Just to help you cement your decision not to switch - the workbook is only two pages, yes. But teaching the lesson can take some time, and there is often a worksheet to do from the Home Teacher packet. Add a page of fact drills and a page of review from the Activity Reviews book, and well, now you're up to 4-5 pages! I know that if you used it, you'd use the whole package. So you might as well just stick with Horizons, right?

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I actually think a program should be both spiral and mastery, but that would take about 3 years to complete. I guess ask yourself what is your goal for this? Comprehension of math concepts or independent work. They are separate issues in my mind. When you sit with her and help her along does she "get" math? Does she understand the concepts and can she explain they and why and how she got her answers? If she gets the math, I would keep working with her however she best gets it, even if that means you have to do it together. Ultimately, she will become independent, but no reason to waste 45 minutes now if she understands the concepts. If she doesn't get the math, I would try a different approach or curriculum to see if that works better.

 

The issue of working on her own (which is one I'm still struggling with with my very oral 9yob!) is a separate issue that should be separated from math so she doesn't end up hating math. :-) Maybe there are other tasks that you could give her to complete on her own for independent practice. I don't have great suggestions because my ds also must process everything orally and does so much better when I will just be there to listen to him. He usually doesn't need my help, but he needs me to listen. I have gone back and forth over whether this is OK, and on different days I decide different things. Sometimes I will say, "I don't want you to say anything for 15 minutes. Just write down your answers and we'll go over them together." This is difficult for him to do. A reward of some kind usually helps! :-)

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curriculum. What, ultimately, is the goals of younger elementary math curriculum? To understand arithmetic and how and when to use it. So, if a person could just play math games and cement those math facts and do tons of real life application problems they would be doing great. How many more eggs do I need until I get to a dozen? Good. How do you do that problem.

 

Get kids talking about their mathematical thinking helps them so much!! I always make my kids tell me why they solved a problem a certain way so I can see if they really understand what they are doing and also I can correct flaws in their thinking.

 

Unfortunately, no curriculum is going to do this for the kids. I guess ultimately that is why Singapore is my favorite. I think it teaches very sound mathematical thinking skills.

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