Tier-2 Universities

[Matryoshka]

So, I'm starting to feel like maybe dd's backup of the backup might not be a bad place to go at all.

 

- It's affordable. 

- It offers her major (actually 3 different flavors)

- It's not too big, not too small (around 8000 students; about 50 in the dept she's interested in)

- It's an hour by train outside of the big city, and also about an hour from us, and yes, it has dorms.

- All of her CC classes would transfer (and quite probably her summer State U class), as it's in the state system, which could maybe even knock a semester off her time there OR just take less credit per semester - she'll probably have about 30 credits coming in.  AND they take AP's with a 3 and up, of which she has three (9 more credits)?  And they take CLEP - wondering if maybe she could just take the PreCalculus CLEP and if she passed that would maybe make up for if the silly ps doesn't want to put it on her transcript next year (see other thread ;) )..

 

And, she's struggled a bit with perfectionism and anxiety.  The pressure-cooker local ps was starting to do her in.  I'm wondering if a lower-ranked school where she can shine would be better than a more selective school where she'd feel the pressure again.  She's been really happy being a smart kid at CC instead of kinda average at cutthroat ps high school (kind of place where people retake the SAT when they got a 790 to get the perfect score).

 

Flagship State U is huge (25000+ undergrads), and she doesn't like the campus at all.  I worry she could get lost there.  When she gets overwhelmed she shuts down, and there no one would notice.  And if she stays a homeschooler they'd make her take the GED.  And it's actually, real-price, probably not cheaper than sending her someplace 'better'.  I'm starting to feel like she should go someplace either a bit more intellectually stimulating but that has a lot of support (like Smith if she could get in), or someplace that won't be as much of a challenge but where she won't be stressed (like Backup State U), and can get out debt-free, and then decide whether she wants to go to grad school or just work. 

 

Her ACT score was a 29, which puts her in the middle of the pack at best at most selective schools (so maaybe she'd get in and probably no merit aid), at around 75th percentile at Flagship U (but where she couldn't even apply to the Honors program as a freshman - they want a 4.1 high school GPA to apply!!), and she's a genius at Backup State U, and she'd almost definitely go directly to the Honors program.

 

Would it be selling her short to go to Backup, Tier-2 State U?  I love debt-free.  And they actually have waaay more classes in her major area of interest than Smith, believe it or not, where a lot of the classes required for an Anthropology major are actually re-purposed History classes or are really at UMass.

 

PS And if she's really bored there or something, she can always transfer someplace shinier, right?  How would that be so different than transferring from CC?

[8filltheheart]

?? No. Believe it or not, most kids attend schools like that.

[MomsintheGarden]

My dd went to a 2nd-tier U.  She went as a shy, timid 17 yo, and had a wonderful experience and was very successful there.  She really enjoyed being a top student and is now doing very well in an excellent PhD program.  She is debt-free because she got a full ride for her undergrad and is fully funded as a grad student.

 

The 2nd-tier school was a great fit for her.  We are evaluating each school for each of our children on a case-by-case basis, though.

[TechWife]

I think you're putting too much weight on the ranking of the school and not enough on finding a college that is a good fit for your daughter. The fact that she doesn't like the campus of Flagship State U means that either a repeat visit is in order so that she can reevaluate or it simply isn't a match for her. She is the one who has to live there, unless there's a compelling reason otherwise (such as it being the only affordable University that has her major), then it needs to be off the table. 

 

ETA: Make sure that your daughter is visiting as many colleges as possible so that she gets a feel for what she likes & what she doesn't like. If an Honors College is a possibility, then she needs to explore that program and decide if it's a fit (the Honors College at my son's university wasn't a good fit for him). 

[creekland]

As long as the college is graduating students who go into the workforce or grad/prof school similar to what is desired by the student, there is no such thing as "2nd Tier" IMO.

 

Fit and function are what's important - not names and rankings.

 

 

[Matryoshka]

?? No. Believe it or not, most kids attend schools like that.

 

Not that I ever hear of.  It's all name-brand or at least one of the big State U's.  If you look this one up in the rankings, it says "Tier-2, not ranked"; rather than National U/LAC or Regional U/LAC. Niche.com gives it a 'C' ranking (although almost all the student reviews of the academics are positive - is it because the SAT scores of the attendees are so low? 25th/75h percentile ACT scores are 19 - 24)

 

People here in the Northeast can be a bit snooty about school.  I graduated from cum laude from the UMass Honors program.  After I got out, I kept getting asked if I could type.  :glare:   This school would be lower-tier than the UMass schools - but I'm hoping maybe she could stand out in her program, get a good internship or a mentor?  Those were things I didn't do that I think would have made a big difference...  I mean, to me, it's looking pretty darn good - but really I know almost no one IRL who goes to those schools, and if they do it's mostly future teachers (irony).  Lots of Education majors at those State U's.

 

[chiguirre]

People here in the Northeast can be a bit snooty about school. 

 

Yes, they can. But other regions have very different attitudes about university reputations. In Texas, you really are better off going to UT or TAMU if you want to live here after graduation. It makes no sense to pay outrageous private school tuition if you can attend a well regarded school and pay our bargain instate tuition.

 

Could you check out the schools that are highly ranked on the National Research Council's Anthropology list? It ranks grad programs, but it's a decent proxy for undergrad at least for a first pass:

 

http://chronicle.com/article/NRC-Rankings-Overview-/124703/

 

There are lots of state schools that would probably be very happy to get someone from MA and might even offer instate tuition.

 

Happy hunting!

[creekland]

I mean, to me, it's looking pretty darn good - but really I know almost no one IRL who goes to those schools, and if they do it's mostly future teachers (irony).  Lots of Education majors at those State U's.

 

 

Again, to me, this could be part of the key as to whether it's worth it or not.  Are graduates getting jobs, etc, doing the same type of things your dd could envision herself doing?  If it's teaching, it seems like the answer is yes, but what else are they doing?

 

Employers tend to know the "good" schools and "not-so-good" schools based upon previous grads.  Their "ranking" can be worth so much more than any magazine's ranking.

 

Free is sometimes literally fabulous and other times "you get what you pay for."  I doubt many of us can answer which category the school in question is in to be honest.

[TechWife]

Not that I ever hear of.  It's all name-brand or at least one of the big State U's

 

 

There are over 4000 colleges/universities in the US where students earn four year degrees. Very few of them, comparatively speaking, are ranked. Their students still go on to gainful employment and full lives.  

What it really boils down to is what she wants to do, not what everyone else is doing.

[Matryoshka]

I think you're putting too much weight on the ranking of the school and not enough on finding a college that is a good fit for your daughter. The fact that she doesn't like the campus of Flagship State U means that either a repeat visit is in order so that she can reevaluate or it simply isn't a match for her. She is the one who has to live there, unless there's a compelling reason otherwise (such as it being the only affordable University that has her major), then it needs to be off the table. 

 

ETA: Make sure that your daughter is visiting as many colleges as possible so that she gets a feel for what she likes & what she doesn't like. If an Honors College is a possibility, then she needs to explore that program and decide if it's a fit (the Honors College at my son's university wasn't a good fit for him). 

 

On the contrary, I'm leaning ever more heavily toward this Tier-2 school as a good fit, even the place I hope she ends up (we'll need to visit before I finalize that opinion, but it's how I'm feeling now).  I just never hear about anyone talking about these schools; even the backups seem to be higher-ranked.

 

This is not the Flagship U, or even one of the other big U's (there are I think 5 UMass schools, and then a bunch of what are called State Universities, which used to be called Teaching Colleges or something).  I'm leaning away from Flagship U at the moment, even as a backup.  Too big, too impersonal for her, I think.  I made it work for me, but she's not me.

 

She herself started out with a list of schools that were all Reaches. Big names, high stats, high cost, tiny acceptance rates. Yikes.  I've been searching for schools she'd even consider that were more in line with both cost and her stats.  Her stats are sky-high compared to the average at this school, but I'm thinking maybe for her that could be a good thing?  I'm the one that sniffed this school out and recommended she take a look.  I think she's warming to it.

[Matryoshka]

Yes, they can. But other regions have very different attitudes about university reputations. In Texas, you really are better off going to UT or TAMU if you want to live here after graduation. It makes no sense to pay outrageous private school tuition if you can attend a well regarded school and pay our bargain instate tuition.

 

Could you check out the schools that are highly ranked on the National Research Council's Anthropology list? It ranks grad programs, but it's a decent proxy for undergrad at least for a first pass:

 

http://chronicle.com/article/NRC-Rankings-Overview-/124703/

 

 

Yeah, this school is too lowball to be on a list like that.

 

 

There are lots of state schools that would probably be very happy to get someone from MA and might even offer instate tuition.

 

Nope.  Not a single state does some kind of in-state tuition for MA residents.  The UMass schools offer a New England tution rate (higher than in-state but lower than regular OOS) for other New England states, but no other nearby state reciprocates.  NY schools are cheap enough that their OOS isn't much more than MA in-state tuition.  Other New England states have ridiculously high OOS tuition.  This state school is even way cheaper than the UMass schools, though.

[Tsuga]

I have shared my story many times.

 

I was a NM semi-finalist. Weighted GPA (not offered, but the top two ahead of my had no honors or AP and were only .05 - .1 ahead), I was #3 in my class. 

 

I did apply to one ranked private school, and got about $25k in academic scholarships there, but it wasn't enough to offset the higher price. So like everyone else in my class who was not a Catholic (come to think of it, weird pattern), I went to a regional public school that was regionally ranked. The Catholics went to our local expensive, more highly ranked Catholic schools. I don't think it was religion as much as culture and family wealth that led to those decisions.

 

I know people and have managed people who've gone everywhere from CC to Harvard, Yale, LSE, etc. My field values work over connections and names, so it has not made a bit of difference where anybody studied and I have not found people who've worked their way up to be any less intelligent, hard working, or able to do their jobs. I've been managed by people from the Ivies, European top schools, and US regional public schools, as well as a small Christian school. Seriously, no difference. Who was able to work, worked.

 

So my thoughts are, unless you are going into a field in which name and connections matter most, and there are fields like that, it really doesn't matter. Her work will show what she can do.

 

 

 

Lots of Education majors at those State U's.

 

??? This doesn't even make sense to me. The vast majority of our software engineers, business majors, doctors, and mechanical engineers on the West Coast come from UCI, UW, UCLA, UC Berkley. I know people from the Ivies etc. from my work abroad, but all the valedictorians and salutatorians around here I know went to our excellent public schools.

 

The only person who became a teacher from my high school class went to a private school. (Catholic. I really don't know why there was that pattern in our small town. Probably a fluke.) Around here, the private schools are much more known for the liberal arts. Aside from Stanford, but only partly aside, if you want to do something technical, you will go to a state school. And I know people in management, obviously not tippy-top management but in very respectable careers at big firms. All of us went to state schools.

 

That's not to say we don't have good private schools. It's just that you wouldn't discount a degree from the state school. Many of them are more selective.

 

 

 

People here in the Northeast can be a bit snooty about school. 

 

Well, if that's the game in the Northeast then that's the game she has to play if she wants to stay there.

 

That's not the game I've had to play. Incidentally, we've been in hard times during the recession. The only difference between us and our colleagues from the Ivies is that they have more debt. My partner's colleagues who went to MIT or Harvard (from the East Coast... natch) have not been immune to the layoffs. It's all about production.

[Matryoshka]

Again, to me, this could be part of the key as to whether it's worth it or not.  Are graduates getting jobs, etc, doing the same type of things your dd could envision herself doing?  If it's teaching, it seems like the answer is yes, but what else are they doing?

 

Employers tend to know the "good" schools and "not-so-good" schools based upon previous grads.  Their "ranking" can be worth so much more than any magazine's ranking.

 

Free is sometimes literally fabulous and other times "you get what you pay for."  I doubt many of us can answer which category the school in question is in to be honest.

 

Yes, it's posts like this that give me pause.

 

I think I'll just have to head down there and talk to Admissions and to the Dept. and see where people go from there.  My mom has a friend (in her 70's) who went there back in the day and now has I think a PhD or at least an Masters, but yes, she's in Education.

 

[Matryoshka]

??? This doesn't even make sense to me. The vast majority of our software engineers, business majors, doctors, and mechanical engineers on the West Coast come from UCI, UW, UCLA, UC Berkley. I know people from the Ivies etc. from my work abroad, but all the valedictorians and salutatorians around here I know went to our excellent public schools.

 

The only person who became a teacher from my high school class went to a private school. (Catholic. I really don't know why there was that pattern in our small town. Probably a fluke.) Around here, the private schools are much more known for the liberal arts. Aside from Stanford, but only partly aside, if you want to do something technical, you will go to a state school. And I know people in management, obviously not tippy-top management but in very respectable careers at big firms. All of us went to state schools.

 

This school is not on par with any of those.  Those would be equivalent to the UMass schools (that's where I went).

 

A bunch of the kids from my Catholic high school went to a local private Catholic college run by the same nuns.  It gets worse grades on Niche than this "Tier-2" school (I'm not calling this school that, it's what you get if you look for its ranking - it's unranked, Tier-2).  And if you actually read the student comments, waaay worse (comments like 'easier than high school')  So private is certainly not always better.

 

[Tsuga]

What field is your daughter looking into?

 

I assume it's not education.

[Lawyer&Mom]

Law school was filled with kids from no name schools. All that mattered was LSAT and GPA. I would look at the postgrad opportunities she wants to pursue and see where the kids did their undergrads. Some areas really like status, and some don't care as long as you have the grades and scores. It just depends.

[FaithManor]

As long as the college is graduating students who go into the workforce or grad/prof school similar to what is desired by the student, there is no such thing as "2nd Tier" IMO.

 

Fit and function are what's important - not names and rankings.

Absolutely! Some of the "tier 2's" are highly specialized to boot and have really highly valued programs with low student to instructor ratios making them quite lucrative.

 

Fit and affordability are so important. Ds was accepted to U of MI in Ann Arbor and is welcome to transfer there at any time. But, he's starting out at their "tier 2" uni in Flint which has been winning awards and getting a LOT of attention. He didn't want to be far from his medical team this year, and as he navigates his first year of adult life with a permanent disability, felt that a smaller campus that has an amazing reputation in his major plus tons of handicap parking was the best fit for him. I can't say enough good things about the Flint campus. That small, personal touch is definitely present. They've assigned a golf cart and driver to him for the first semester if he is still experiencing a lot of leg pain. They've bent over backward. I can't say that about Ann Arbor, and well, Alma was a wonderful school but really just could not do much for him. The limited amount of handicap parking being taken up by mostly faculty and staff leaving NONE for students was a huge problem, and the small number of maintenance workers meant that each time we visited this past winter (5 times due to the fact that we attend a lot of cultural events there) none of the sidewalks were shoveled, nor the ramps, and it was a real problem getting him around in a wheelchair and later on his crutches. We are thrilled with his choice and anticipate a great year for him.

[creekland]

This. I get so depressed reading about comparisons between schools. Calling the calibre of students lower at one school than another based on the ACT range of one or 2 points seems ridiculous. We all talk about tippy top kids at top schools in one breath, then in the next we tell each other that standardized tests basically tell us which kids are great at test taking.

 

Caliber within a point or two is meaningless all around (student and school).  Multiple point differences are meaningless in some fields - period.  Scores also can't tell work ethic at all.

 

HOWEVER, there is a difference in general academic ability based upon wider differences in scores and esp many intro classes in higher level schools will be different in depth.

 

The question is... does that matter to the student or the employer?

 

Two of mine never would have done well at middle son's college even though all are similar in "smarts" of various types.  Middle son's college goes far more in depth and he thrives on it.  They do not.

 

Going to a different school has not stopped oldest from being successful at getting a job he liked right after graduation.

 

THAT'S what matters on a personal level.

 

And... of course... what Faith said... some schools are super specialized in certain fields.  I'll always maintain (based upon objective evidence) that youngest son's college is in the Top 10 and could be "the" top for Marine Sciences - yet I don't think they make the Top 100 in LACs otherwise.  My guy is no longer even a Marine Science major and I'm still ok with his schooling choice for him.  It fits him well at this point.

[FaithManor]

 

 

 My guy is no longer even a Marine Science major and I'm still ok with his schooling choice for him.  It fits him well at this point.

This!

 

I think that is such an important point. Ideally, thriving and loving it is the key. It is so much harder to be successful and graduate on time when one is unhappy, maybe even miserable.

[Matryoshka]

Has she visited the school? If she truly is the type to become stressed in certain situations, and has really taken the time to think about the big/small fish and pond question, then this sounds like a good thing. Is grad school more than likely needed? Can the school tell you which grad schools their kids end up at? Making the most of the school's opportunities+ standing out as a top student there + graduating debt free and feeling happy and contented with her choices sounds wonderful. My son took this path and has said he had zero regrets.

 

She's currently thinking of Anthropology/Archaeology.   They have majors in General Anthro, Cultural Anthro, and Public Archaeology (which is a BS & includes a lot of Geology, field work and remote sensing courses). She also really likes languages and linguistics.  (This school doesn't have a lot of languages or linguistics, but she could do a semester or year abroad - she's already fairly fluent in two foreign languages, and Linguistics is more of a grad concentration anyway.  And they do offer Intermediate Arabic if she continues with that.)  She also likes biology and forensics.

 

If she stuck with any of those, she'll probably need a grad degree.  Weirdly, she did mention the other day that she really enjoyed working with groups of kids when she interned at a living history museum, and said maybe she wouldn't mind teaching (and I didn't even think she liked kids much).  This school offers a double-major with Elementary Education if she decided to do that, but she's only ever mentioned it that one time in passing.  She's also talked about working in something like restoration in a museum.

 

Lately she says she's not sure she wants to do grad school, though.  I have no idea what she'd do if she just ends at a Bachelor's.  The other day I had a really crazy idea that maybe as a third-level backup she could think about doing Dental Tech - she loves doing fine detail work and is very artistic (this overlaps with the Archaeology or restoration).  But i think she should get a Bachelor's first.

 

None of these careers are high-paying, which is another reason why I don't want her going into lots of debt, especially undergrad.

 

[anne1456]

My 19 year old is attending a tier 2 school.  The ACT ranking for her school is about the same as the one you are considering, 19-23.  What we have found is that the quality of the classes varies a lot depending on the department.  My daughter is in nursing, and the classes are tough, but other departments are not known for rigor.  She took a Spanish class in the spring and it was a joke, she learned almost nothing.  The class was full of kids taking it because it was required and not caring if they learned Spanish or not.  She learned more in the lower level Spanish class she took at community college the previous year.

 

The other issue we have noticed is that while there are all kinds of classes in the catalog few of them are actually offered.  She has room in her schedule since she took some prereq. at community college, and it is hard to find classes to fill her schedule.  So you should check the online course registration and make sure these anthropology courses are actually offered, and have your daughter sit in on one to see what level they are taught at.  

 

The advantages are that she definitely stands out.  She was easily able to get hired as a tutor, and is going to be an RA next year.  She got some extra school scholarship money and has had no problem getting glowing letters of recommendation from her professors. For nursing the undergraduate school doesn't matter at all, so she basically chose this school because it made financial sense and will let her graduate with no debt

[8filltheheart]

I didn't read all of the replies. I am exhausted (We left for the DMV and a permit this morning at 930 and finally had our turn at 2:00! Nothing like high efficiency standards. :p At least they were nice!)

 

I personally think rankings are incredibly overblown in significance. Look at some of these types of discrepancies between rankings like US News and World Report and recruiting rankings:

 

Texas Tech University: Ranked 156 out of 201 ranked schools http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/texas-tech-university-3644

But by recruiters, it is #25 for best engineering graduates. http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703376504575491704156387646

 

 

Our oldest earned his chemE degree from a university only ranked regionally by USNWR. He was recruited by one of the top global chemical companies in the country. He has received multipel promotions within that corporation. All new grads are hired in at the exact same level regardless of where they earn their degree.

 

We are looking at a school with RNP for our rising 11th grader. (The university has a medical school and its nursing school has a fabulous reputation.)

 

There is a whole wide world of opportunities that exist outside of the top schools. Of course, the vast majority of the country exists outside of the NE, too. :)

 

As far as anthropology, have you looked at Wooster? That is where Jane in NC's ds went I think for archaeology and he loved it there.

[TechWife]

On the contrary, I'm leaning ever more heavily toward this Tier-2 school as a good fit, even the place I hope she ends up (we'll need to visit before I finalize that opinion, but it's how I'm feeling now).  I just never hear about anyone talking about these schools; even the backups seem to be higher-ranked.

 

This is not the Flagship U, or even one of the other big U's (there are I think 5 UMass schools, and then a bunch of what are called State Universities, which used to be called Teaching Colleges or something).  I'm leaning away from Flagship U at the moment, even as a backup.  Too big, too impersonal for her, I think.  I made it work for me, but she's not me.

 

She herself started out with a list of schools that were all Reaches. Big names, high stats, high cost, tiny acceptance rates. Yikes.  I've been searching for schools she'd even consider that were more in line with both cost and her stats.  Her stats are sky-high compared to the average at this school, but I'm thinking maybe for her that could be a good thing?  I'm the one that sniffed this school out and recommended she take a look.  I think she's warming to it.

 

I'm going to say this as gently as I can. It doesn't matter what you are leaning towards. What matter is whether or not the school is a good fit for her. The fact that you keep referring to "Tier 1" and "Tier 2" is really demonstrating that you aren't fully on board with that concept. 

 

 

 

Nope.  Not a single state does some kind of in-state tuition for MA residents.  

 

You might be surprised. Many colleges offer scholarships to promising students from out-of-state that compensate for the higher tuition. This is something she won't know until she explores some of those options and even applies for some of them. Again, getting a good fit for her is what is important. Part of determining fit is finances, of course. 

 

 

I think I'll just have to head down there and talk to Admissions and to the Dept. and see where people go from there.  

 

Your daughter is the one who needs to do this. You can tag along, but she needs to do a campus visit. She can compile a list of questions that need to be answered, but at college, she needs to be the one taking the initiative. 

[TechWife]

 Her stats are sky-high compared to the average at this school, but I'm thinking maybe for her that could be a good thing?  

 

Yes, that can be a good thing, if the university is a good fit for her. High stats mean that the potential is there for more scholarship money and their honors college, if that program is a good fit and is something she wants to do.  She can ask about available scholarships, the application process, criteria and she can ask about the Honors College program when she visits the university. 

[Matryoshka]

I'm going to say this as gently as I can. It doesn't matter what you are leaning towards. What matter is whether or not the school is a good fit for her. The fact that you keep referring to "Tier 1" and "Tier 2" is really demonstrating that you aren't fully on board with that concept. 

 

I am not referring to anything as "Tier 1"  I don't think there's any such thing.  I only refer to this one as "Tier 2" so you all can understand what I'm talking about here - this is not Big State U, and certainly not Berkeley to which someone was comparing it just because they're both public (which is ranked #32 overall, btw).  Some other people said "oh, well, so it's not top 100" - no, it's not ranked at all; if you look it up it says "Tier 2" next to the name, which is why I used that term.  I'd never even heard of such a thing.  I had no idea.  I'm just calling it that the same way others say "Top 100 LAC" or "Top 150 Regional U's".  It's in a whole separate category in the rankings. 

 

Let's make a car analogy: if I'm talking about buying a Yugo and you all keep saying, oh, you don't have to buy a Mercedes, a Honda is just fine.  No, I'm not talking about a Honda.  But maybe a Yugo will be fine too.  Just so we know what we're talking about.

 

 

Your daughter is the one who needs to do this. You can tag along, but she needs to do a campus visit. She can compile a list of questions that need to be answered, but at college, she needs to be the one taking the initiative.

 

She absolutely needs to come along, and do all the talking.  But as I mentioned before, she gets overwhelm and shuts down.  She's a competitive perfectionist.  All the schools she came up with were tippy top ranked with vanishingly small acceptance rates, and her stats were around 25th percentile.  They would not be a good fit.  So, I had to do some searching and kind of strewing.  Tossing out names.

 

And I am encouraging her to go for the Mercedes, and the BMW, and the Porsche, but they might end up being too expensive.  Who knows, maybe someone will sell you one for a bargain, but don't count on it.  And on the other end, do I tell her a Yugo will get her where she's going, or do I encourage her to go with the more reliable Honda, for which she'll still probably need a loan, but has great resale value?  (And I'm not even sure what the Honda school is at this point...)   It will be her decision, but I don't want to tell her a Yugo is just fine and have it break down on the highway, y'know?  But maybe the Yugo is reliable enough and will get her from point A to point B and will do just fine, and not only that but she can use the money saved for a plane ticket.  That's my question.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Yes, it's posts like this that give me pause.

 

I think I'll just have to head down there and talk to Admissions and to the Dept. and see where people go from there.  My mom has a friend (in her 70's) who went there back in the day and now has I think a PhD or at least an Masters, but yes, she's in Education.

 

While you are there could your dd hang out for the day with the Anthro Dept?  Get a feel for what work people are doing over the summer and where they head after graduation?

 

A friend of ours did an undergrad at a school that would probably count as Tier 2.  She is headed to Univ of Chicago for her master's degree this fall.  She loved her lesser known school and really did well there.  She was in the Honors program, loved many of her profs and did a semester abroad.

[chiguirre]

Tier 1 is a real thing. Here's a detailed explanation from the U of H's website.

 

http://www.uh.edu/about/tier-one/tier-one-faq/

 

They recently became a Tier 1 institution, as all their billboards now proudly proclaim. You definitely don't need to go to a Tier 1 school. By definition they're big and research oriented so they're not for every student.

[TechWife]

I am not referring to anything as "Tier 1"  I don't think there's any such thing.  I only refer to this one as "Tier 2" so you all can understand what I'm talking about here - this is not Big State U, and certainly not Berkeley to which someone was comparing it just because they're both public (which is ranked #32 overall, btw).  Some other people said "oh, well, so it's not top 100" - no, it's not ranked at all; if you look it up it says "Tier 2" next to the name, which is why I used that term.  I'd never even heard of such a thing.  I had no idea.  I'm just calling it that the same way others say "Top 100 LAC" or "Top 150 Regional U's".  It's in a whole separate category in the rankings. 

 

Let's make a car analogy: if I'm talking about buying a Yugo and you all keep saying, oh, you don't have to buy a Mercedes, a Honda is just fine.  No, I'm not talking about a Honda.  But maybe a Yugo will be fine too.  Just so we know what we're talking about.

 

 

Universities are nationally ranked. Tier 1 Universities are places like the Ivies and major research institutions, like the University of Illinois and Duke University, among others. There are several different ranking systems out there and they vary from one another. Admissions are highly selective. Not every school that has competitive admissions is a Tier 1 school, though. 

 

Tiers were not important to us when we researched programs, so I never delved into the nuances between the different Tiers. In fact, I don't even know if ds' university is even ranked. As a regional university, I expect that it isn't. 

 

Your car analogy is excellent. However, to me a Yugo would be a community college, the budget version. It would not typically have an honors program available because students who qualify for those types of programs go to Honda and Mercedes schools (there are always exceptions, as schools vary widely). Generally speaking, community colleges vary widely in quality and should be evaluated on an individual basis. One can start in a Yugo and expect to upgrade to a Honda. They would have to be a stellar Yugo student with a lot of other things to make their admissions package competitive in order to jump to a Mercedes right away, though. There are more Hondas on the road than there are either Yugos or Mercedes'. This is because the quality is dependable and the price is reasonable for the quality you are getting. Of course, different Hondas offer different features ( sedan, van, SUV, compact car) and even the features in one category can be different (you can get an SUV with leather seats, for example), the less expensive compact car can have built in GPS. This is why people are telling you that the right fit depends on so much more than university rankings. It may be that a Honda is an excellent choice as long as it has leather seats in a particular area. Maybe the Yugo is an excellent choice, as long as it has hubcaps. 

 

Only your daughter can figure that out. If she wants to apply to one or two reach schools, that's great. She should spend the bulk of her time evaluating her Honda schools and maybe a couple of Yugo schools. So yes, many of us are saying that a Honda can be just fine. A Yugo could be fine, too, but for a student with the test scores you are posting can find a good fit at a Honda school, so don't settle for a Yugo until she needs to go that route for a reason other than academic, such as finances. 

 

If you are looking at a ranking system that says the university you are talking about is designated "Tier 2" then it is not a Yugo, it is a Honda (but not all Hondas are ranked). Encouraging your daughter to attend a "tier 2" school is in no way selling her short. Also, a "tier 2" school is ranked, is just might not be on someone's random list of "Top 100 Colleges" because ranking lists are calculated on different criteria. 

Keep in mind, too, that not all Flagship State U's are Tier 1 schools. If I had to guess, I'd say that most of them are not, but I really don't know. 

 

Does that help you understand where some of us are coming from? 

 

ETA: fixing auto correct and adding a bit of info. 

[Hoggirl]

Here's my $0.02.

 

You need to go and visit the school and see what she thinks. One question I have (and maybe I missed it) is what is the 6-year graduation rate at this school?

 

If you are one who would qualify for lots of need-based aid, there is nothing wrong with applying to the reachy schools as long as you are realistic. I saw that someone mentioned Smith? Do they meet full demonstrated need? I would not take on ANY debt for an undergraduate degree in anthropology/archeology. But, if she can get into a reachier (although not uber competitive since that's not her thing) school that meets full-need then that would be great!

 

Ds has a high school classmate who chose a school that sounds similar to the type you are considering. VERY small Honors program. She had an identical ACT score to your dd's. It's been a super fit for her as she is definitely a big fish. She really would have gotten lost at our local Big State U. She's out of state at this Tier-2 school, but she still received great merit money.

[NCMom]

 

And I am encouraging her to go for the Mercedes, and the BMW, and the Porsche, but they might end up being too expensive. Who knows, maybe someone will sell you one for a bargain, but don't count on it. And on the other end, do I tell her a Yugo will get her where she's going, or do I encourage her to go with the more reliable Honda, for which she'll still probably need a loan, but has great resale value? (And I'm not even sure what the Honda school is at this point...) It will be her decision, but I don't want to tell her a Yugo is just fine and have it break down on the highway, y'know? But maybe the Yugo is reliable enough and will get her from point A to point B and will do just fine, and not only that but she can use the money saved for a plane ticket. That's my question.

According to your analogy, my daughter is at...a Yugo. Ouch.

 

Usually dd doesn't want me to post anything about her but with her permission I can say that she likes it, has a full ride (DI sport - but she walked on and had everything but her meal plan paid previously). She was top 25%; she applied at the last minute rather than take a gap year. ETA: She is a big fish but that has been to her advantage, at least so far.

 

Of the seniors she knows fairly well who graduated this year - 3 have jobs (all with very good offers), 2 going to grad school (one at NC State, the other at some school I have never heard of in CA - not too shabby) and 1 deciding what to do (moving back home, lol). Anecdotal, to be sure, but some students driving Yugo's do get good jobs.

 

They have HUGE career fairs. Job postings, internship postings are sent out by departments almost daily. They work hard to help students/graduates network in their fields. I don't know anything about anthro but in her field they get some people into impressive internships. They have a big push right now to get more people to do study abroad.

 

Her Yugo at least, doesn't appear to just sit in the garage. :laugh:

 

 

Georgia

[elegantlion]

She also needs to consider what a BA vs a Master's will get with anthro/archaeology. I may be misinformed, but the impression I get is that many of those focused jobs will require a Master's. 

 

As for school size, I think it does make a difference. My school has 6k students, I think. Class sizes are between 20 and 40 people with the exception of some general studies courses. Because of that smaller class/department size, you can stand out. Standing out can get your opportunities earlier. 

 

I agree it would be worth trying to schedule a visit to the department. 

[TechWife]

 

 

As for school size, I think it does make a difference. My school has 6k students, I think. Class sizes are between 20 and 40 people with the exception of some general studies courses. Because of that smaller class/department size, you can stand out. Standing out can get your opportunities earlier. 

 

 

But, not always! My son's university has 16,700 students and a student:faculty ratio of 16:1. The actual average class size is 25. 

[elegantlion]

But, not always! My son's university has 16,700 students and a student:faculty ratio of 16:1. The actual average class size is 25. 

 

Wow, that has to be a lot of faculty!

[Tsuga]

This school is not on par with any of those.  Those would be equivalent to the UMass schools (that's where I went).

 

A bunch of the kids from my Catholic high school went to a local private Catholic college run by the same nuns.  It gets worse grades on Niche than this "Tier-2" school (I'm not calling this school that, it's what you get if you look for its ranking - it's unranked, Tier-2).  And if you actually read the student comments, waaay worse (comments like 'easier than high school')  So private is certainly not always better.

 

 

Well, I didn't go to those ones, because I didn't want to be in calc II with 500 other people, so I went to a regional school. When I think right now about who has had the most advancement in their career of the top five people in my class, it is me, and I went to the lowest-ranked school.

 

That said the three people who are all earning the most in my HS class (based on my estimations from brief glances at their LinkedIn profiles), I happen to know, are people who went into business. They probably ranked in the top 15% of our class. Two went to my school (the unranked), one went to the state flagship. Same applies. My partner went to a private school in the NE and transferred back to CC and then to our state flagship. He said CC was easy, of course, but found the state flagship courses to be as challenging as those at his private school, but cheaper. When we compare our knowledge of math, etc. and our careers, we make the same salary (but me working in the public sector) and I'm above him in management tier.

 

I just really think that unless you're in a field in which name matters, you will be fine.

 

That said, I'm living in a working to upper-middle class neighborhood. An individual's salary in this neighborhood will range from $45k to $200k but won't go much higher. So maybe it's different among the truly rich. Take my advice with that in mind.

[JanetC]

Tier 2 schools can still have very strong programs in particular majors. The 3 flavors of major in her area of interest sounds like a strong selling point to me. Have you visited? What did she think?

[Tsuga]

She's currently thinking of Anthropology/Archaeology.  

 

 

Quite frankly, as a philosophy major, I wouldn't take out a single penny of debt or sell a single ounce of equity for a degree in anthropology, philosophy, philology, or the like. So I'd go for what you can pay cash.

 

I just interviewed 5 candidates with degrees in the social / historical sciences / anthro / women's studies / psych (master's to PhD levels). The average salary among them, and they were quite amazing people, was, and I am not making this up, $1,300/month.

 

That's ONE thousand, THREE hundred dollars a month. Average 10 years of experience. True, salaries aren't all that low but some of them truly, truly suck. It's actually insulting. And these were the top five out of about 75 candidates. All went to flagship or well-known private schools.

 

I made that mistake, as a first generation student in 1995. In 2011 I got my professional degree that added about $50k annually to my market value (just getting there as the recovery hits my sector and I branch out). The first I was able to make work. The second worked for me.

 

I could write a song.

 

"Mamas, don't let your babies grow up with just "soft skills".

Social services ain't easy to support and they're harder to get out of student debt.

They'd rather give you mediocre advice than diamonds or gold.

Worn out converse and 10-year-old Dockers from Costco,

And each day begins a new extremely long commute.

If you don't understand her and she doesn't die young,

She'll have to work until she dies because she'll never retire.

 

 

Mamas, don't let your babies grow up to work in the public sector.

Don't let 'em do casework or drive a sh*tty Datsun.

Let 'em be doctors and lawyers and such.

Mamas, don't let your babies grow up to make a difference.

'Cause they'll never leave home and they won't be able to buy a ring

Even for someone they love."

 

I could go on. Seriously. How many anthropologists were hired last year in the United States and Canada?

 

I think it's fine if she studies it. But I think the source of the degree is far less important than the subject studied. I do think anthropology is important! It's just not really a living-wage degree for most people.

[TechWife]

Wow, that has to be a lot of faculty!

 

There is, and they don't use TA's in their classes, either.  The profs all have terminal degrees, too. It's turning out to be a fantastic match for him in a lot of areas, class size being just one of them. His freshman seminar course is capped out at 22 students this semester. They are offering 102 sections of this course in order to get class sizes that small. His art class is capped at 16. The others I just don't remember, but his product design course is the largest and that's because it's a gen ed requirement for some students. 

[swimmermom3]

Matryoshka, I am going to way out on a limb here and I can remove this at your request.

 

I've been reading your posts about this dd, not just on this thread, but on others. I have a nagging feeling, and I can be way off. As the mother of a child with depression and anxiety, I may see ghosts were there aren't, but in your responses, I've had the feeling that this child is a bit lost and is trying to find her way.  She has her list of things she believes she should be going for  - the reach schools, but it also seems like it has been very difficult to find the right educational choice even for high school. It seems as though there are lots of choices to made, lots of things to consider and research, lots of busyness.

 

I think you are correct in that finding the right fit for this child will be super important, but she has to know herself first, to know what that fit would be and in you anxiety to get "it right," you might be using "undue influence."  What about a gap year - slow it down. You said she loves languages.  One of my ds's good sailor friends has deferred her enrollment at George Washing University for one year in order to go teach English in China.

 

Perhaps her path needs to look significantly different than her sister's.

 

Or I could be speaking out of the wrong part of my anatomy, and if so, just say the word, and I'll remove it. 

 

You want to send a healthy, happy, excited, young adult off to college. Nervous is okay; deeply anxious may not be.

[8filltheheart]

I just interviewed 5 candidates with degrees in the social / historical sciences / anthro / women's studies / psych (master's to PhD levels). The average salary among them, and they were quite amazing people, was, and I am not making this up, $1,300/month.

 

That's ONE thousand, THREE hundred dollars a month. Average 10 years of experience.

Yikes! My Aspie makes more than that as a donation greeter at Goodwill.

[Hoggirl]

She also needs to consider what a BA vs a Master's will get with anthro/archaeology. I may be misinformed, but the impression I get is that many of those focused jobs will require a Master's.

 

The person I know with a Masters in Anthropology (from Texas A&M - no idea how good they are in that area) is a brick mason. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't think that's what he had in mind. So I totally agree with the other poster who said no debt.

[Jenny in Florida]

I've spoken about this on the boards before, but it's probably worth saying again. My son, who is very bright and entirely capable of being a stand-out student wherever he wanted to go, chose to attend a small-ish, in-state university that most people only think they have heard of because they confuse it with the large state university campus that happens to be in the same city. He's not especially interested in academics, but, like your daughter, his grades and test scores put him in range for some selective schools.  He applied to and visited and was accepted to a variety of colleges, some of which have much higher rankings and wider name-brand recognition.

 

However, when we visited the University of Tampa, all three of us (my son, my husband and I) just felt in our bones that UTampa was the right place for him. The departments in which he was interested were small and welcoming. The facilities were not as shiny and new as those of some other schools he visited, but the faculty members and heads of the departments seemed happy to speak with him and answer all of his questions. The current students he ran into in the halls were enthusiastic and encouraged him to come there. The campus just felt . . . like home. From that point on, although we tried to encourage him to keep an open mind until all the acceptances and scholarship/financial packages came in, it was really just a question of crossing our collective fingers that the stars would align so that he could go there.

 

They did, and he does, and he's very happy and thriving there.

 

As others have said, fit is much more important than more superficial statistics. If your gut -- and, more importantly, your daughter's gut -- say that this "not as impressive" school is right for her, it quite probably is.

 

Edited to add: Oh, and given your comment that you sniffed out the school, I should perhaps mention that I am the one who "strongly encouraged" (not to say "insisted") that my son apply to and audition at UTampa, because I wanted him to have at least one solid, in-state option. We had stopped by the campus for a quick, informal look on one of his early fact-finding college tours, and he wasn't excited about it at all. It was only after he'd done a few visits to other schools and when he spent a full day on campus auditioning and meeting people and doing the full, official hoopla that he got really interested.

 

 

[Tsuga]

Yikes! My Aspie makes more than that as a donation greeter at Goodwill.

 

There are probably laws to protect disabled people from exploitation.

 

There are no laws to protect social workers from their own choices. The line is, "You chose this career. We thought you wanted to help, and now you want a living wage? Are you in this for the money?"

 

I know I sound cynical, but I just can't stand the thought of another young person going into this line of work without their eyes wide open. Only severely reduced supply will increase wages, and that won't happen as long as we keep churning out indentured servants (social workers with student debt).

[creekland]

Quite frankly, as a philosophy major, I wouldn't take out a single penny of debt or sell a single ounce of equity for a degree in anthropology, philosophy, philology, or the like. So I'd go for what you can pay cash.

 

I just interviewed 5 candidates with degrees in the social / historical sciences / anthro / women's studies / psych (master's to PhD levels). The average salary among them, and they were quite amazing people, was, and I am not making this up, $1,300/month.

 

That's ONE thousand, THREE hundred dollars a month. Average 10 years of experience. True, salaries aren't all that low but some of them truly, truly suck. It's actually insulting. And these were the top five out of about 75 candidates. All went to flagship or well-known private schools.

 

 

And this is WHY it's important to see where graduates go and what they do.  Looking at rankings is not enough IMO.  It's important to gauge the department.  Believe it or not, there are graduates in all sorts of "soft" majors who do well - getting into jobs they like (pay isn't always everything to them, but it's certainly enough to live on), but the competition can be fierce and going to College A is not necessarily an asset even if it's a fancy private or state flagship.  It matters what employers think.

 

There are way too many kids who graduate with "a" degree and think it will make them competitive with someone else with that degree from a desired school.  It doesn't.  Plenty of apps never get more than a glance.  An app from the "right" school gets a closer look.

 

The difference is how that "right" school is found.  So many assume it's generic Top Whatever lists.  It rarely is.  Employers (in some fields) get their favorites from experience with previous grads.  The more competitive a field is, the more important it is to decipher which schools are good.  As I noted before, Eckerd doesn't really come up on many "top" lists, until one talks with people in the Marine Science fields.  There are plenty of Marine majors graduating and most probably won't get jobs in their field, so one would want the school they graduate from to be a respected one, not one where employers go, "huh?"

 

Even in my hubby's field of engineering, the name on the diploma matters for new hires.  There are schools that will immediately get an app ignored.  There are others that will get interviews without much more of a look.

 

Where I work (public high school) all that matters is that one have a degree.  Where it's from doesn't matter.  Right now competition for the few jobs available is fierce though, so there could be some bias in the selection of who gets interviewed.  A known local name of school would likely be more favorably looked at than a "Huh? Where's that?" school.

[creekland]

As a follow up to what I've been saying, here's a site showing average starting and mid-career salaries for oodles of majors.  Some wages are lower than others, of course, but when one loves the job they are doing and isn't just working for money, it makes a difference.  I don't see a single average coming out < 30K per year to start and all increase a bit for mid-career.

 

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-Degrees_that_Pay_you_Back-sort.html

 

The key is getting a job, and the more competitive the specialized field, the more it matters where you go to get a job (even for networking purposes).

 

Getting back to the OP... is this particular college good?  Well, what do grads in those majors do when they graduate?  Are they accepted into respectable grad schools, working in their field, or asking if you want fries with that?  There's your answer.

[8filltheheart]

As a follow up to what I've been saying, here's a site showing average starting and mid-career salaries for oodles of majors.  Some wages are lower than others, of course, but when one loves the job they are doing and isn't just working for money, it makes a difference.  I don't see a single average coming out < 30K per year to start and all increase a bit for mid-career.

 

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-Degrees_that_Pay_you_Back-sort.html

 

The key is getting a job, and the more competitive the specialized field, the more it matters where you go to get a job (even for networking purposes).

 

Getting back to the OP... is this particular college good?  Well, what do grads in those majors do when they graduate?  Are they accepted into respectable grad schools, working in their field, or asking if you want fries with that?  There's your answer.

 

Looking at the 25th% mid-career range column.....my dd with her 2 yr degree and only out of school for 1 yr is making more than most of those fields and on par with the avg higher groupings if you remove the few highest paying fields in that category.  Honestly, I think that is pretty sad. The running joke in our household is that her starting salary with her 2 yr degree will mostly likely exceed ds's starting salary once he earns his PhD in physics. ChemE ds laughs at them both.  ;)  His salary already exceeds mid-career for a lot of chemE's and he is only a 2011 grad.

 

Students really do need to enter into a field with their eyes wide open, not only to pay, but expected hours, working conditions, and realistic employment in that field. A recent engineer new hire complained about having to field phone calls after work hrs.  Ummm.....when you work as a process engineer, guess what, you are on-call a lot of the time bc you are the person in charge of the process.  It shouldn't come as a surprise after employment.

[Matryoshka]

Your car analogy is excellent. However, to me a Yugo would be a community college, the budget version. It would not typically have an honors program available because students who qualify for those types of programs go to Honda and Mercedes schools (there are always exceptions, as schools vary widely). Generally speaking, community colleges vary widely in quality and should be evaluated on an individual basis. One can start in a Yugo and expect to upgrade to a Honda. They would have to be a stellar Yugo student with a lot of other things to make their admissions package competitive in order to jump to a Mercedes right away, though. There are more Hondas on the road than there are either Yugos or Mercedes'. This is because the quality is dependable and the price is reasonable for the quality you are getting. Of course, different Hondas offer different features ( sedan, van, SUV, compact car) and even the features in one category can be different (you can get an SUV with leather seats, for example), the less expensive compact car can have built in GPS. This is why people are telling you that the right fit depends on so much more than university rankings. It may be that a Honda is an excellent choice as long as it has leather seats in a particular area. Maybe the Yugo is an excellent choice, as long as it has hubcaps.

Okay, this school might be a Yaris rather than a Yugo - more research must be done. :lol:

 

The CC she's now attending DE does have an Honors program; it's not a great CC but not a terrible one either.  I have a friend whose dd is at the same CC and has been doing a lot with the Honors program and has been very careful about which profs her dd has, and she's had some really good, challenging classes. The 2nd-Tier State U's in this state seem to me to be about the same level as the CC, just four years instead of two.  But she's liking the CC.  She takes her first Honors class there in the fall.

[creekland]

Looking at the 25th% mid-career range column.....my dd with her 2 yr degree and only out of school for 1 yr is making more than most of those fields and on par with the avg higher groupings if you remove the few highest paying fields in that category.  Honestly, I think that is pretty sad. 

 

I'll disagree that it's sad.  I'd like to see all professions earning a respectable living wage.  This includes academic jobs, prof jobs, trade jobs, and even "high school degree only" jobs.

 

The difference lies in the niche that fits our kids.

 

I fully agree with you that kids need to look at all aspects of careers to determine which niche truly fits them - money is only a part of that.  I'd hate for my guys to be trudging along in a job they hate even if it pays really well.  I'd much rather they earn less and enjoy what they are doing.

[Matryoshka]

Matryoshka, I am going to way out on a limb here and I can remove this at your request.

 

I've been reading your posts about this dd, not just on this thread, but on others. I have a nagging feeling, and I can be way off. As the mother of a child with depression and anxiety, I may see ghosts were there aren't, but in your responses, I've had the feeling that this child is a bit lost and is trying to find her way.  She has her list of things she believes she should be going for  - the reach schools, but it also seems like it has been very difficult to find the right educational choice even for high school. It seems as though there are lots of choices to made, lots of things to consider and research, lots of busyness.

 

I think you are correct in that finding the right fit for this child will be super important, but she has to know herself first, to know what that fit would be and in you anxiety to get "it right," you might be using "undue influence."  What about a gap year - slow it down. You said she loves languages.  One of my ds's good sailor friends has deferred her enrollment at George Washing University for one year in order to go teach English in China.

 

Perhaps her path needs to look significantly different than her sister's.

 

Or I could be speaking out of the wrong part of my anatomy, and if so, just say the word, and I'll remove it. 

 

You want to send a healthy, happy, excited, young adult off to college. Nervous is okay; deeply anxious may not be.

 

No, I think you're not far off at all.  I feel like I'm getting whiplash, or am standing on shifting sand.  But this is why I am feeling like something low-stress where she can shine (and is not tooo far from home - but definitely not at home) and can maybe take a lower course load or get it done faster (because so many more credits will transfer) might be a good course.  And no debt.

 

I am hesitant about a gap year for this kid right now.  I myself did a gap year (and am very glad I did), so I'm not against them in general, but she'd have to have a really definite plan, or I think she could end up drifting.  She's had a boyfriend this year who was homeschooled and this should have been his senior year, but he mostly worked at Dunkin' Donuts.  Now he's 18 and he's moved up to Starbucks.  He's a smart kid, and says he's going to do more with his life than serve coffee, but I think it can be hard to switch back to school mode once you're used to working and making money (even if it isn't a ton). 

 

Her path will definitely be very different from her twin's. 

 

How has your dd been doing?

 

[JeanM]

As a follow up to what I've been saying, here's a site showing average starting and mid-career salaries for oodles of majors.  Some wages are lower than others, of course, but when one loves the job they are doing and isn't just working for money, it makes a difference.  I don't see a single average coming out < 30K per year to start and all increase a bit for mid-career.

 

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-Degrees_that_Pay_you_Back-sort.html

 

The key is getting a job, and the more competitive the specialized field, the more it matters where you go to get a job (even for networking purposes).

 

Getting back to the OP... is this particular college good?  Well, what do grads in those majors do when they graduate?  Are they accepted into respectable grad schools, working in their field, or asking if you want fries with that?  There's your answer.

 

IMO, charts like these are very difficult to interpret. This chart is for people "with only a bachelor's degree." Some fields you really *need* an advanced degree. On the other hand, some fields don't actually pay that much more even if you do have an advanced degree.

 

[8filltheheart]

I'll disagree that it's sad. I'd like to see all professions earning a respectable living wage. This includes academic jobs, prof jobs, trade jobs, and even "high school degree only" jobs.

 

The difference lies in the niche that fits our kids.

 

I fully agree with you that kids need to look at all aspects of careers to determine which niche truly fits them - money is only a part of that. I'd hate for my guys to be trudging along in a job they hate even if it pays really well. I'd much rather they earn less and enjoy what they are doing.

We'll have to disagree. My kids have managed to achieve academic and career goals debt-free and with minimal to no cost to us personally. There are kids and their families taking on significant debt believing that they need to attend school Z bc that is the only path to a high paying career. They cannot see the future, nor are they even clear about the path bc they "know" the answer they have been told. I do think that is sad.