beaners Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 How do you keep your day on track when one child is derailing things? Particularly lessons you do with everyone together? Background - one of our kids requires 24/7 supervision right now and has a "home base" seat at the kitchen table. I can do other independent or small group work in one of the bedrooms with other kids but still have a line of sight on him. That works well when he is being disruptive. Our lessons for everyone are tough to do when he is having a hard day. One of the lines I have drawn for myself is that we can't keep disrupting life for the other kids because he is difficult to work with. (Realistic or not, who knows, lol!) He actually likes schoolwork most of the time, but once he is set off he will sit at the table and talk garbage about all the other kids while they are working or playing. We have an open floorplan so I can't work in the living room while he is in the kitchen. Doing family lessons in the other room without him makes him more upset, but is the most fair option for the rest of the kids. Alienating him from the family is really something I'd like to avoid though. He does enough of that on his own. And on the individual level, how do you do schoolwork with a child while he is yelling at you? I've been telling him I will wait until he is being respectful and calm to work with him. It doesn't help the behavior. It triggers him more, but at the same time I literally can't do the work while he is in crabby patty mode. We've been doing this consistently for months. The only thing that works is waiting until he is back to himself, but riding out that wave is tiring. And less gets done during that time than I would like. I'm not sure if I'm looking for "permission" to do family work without him, or for more ideas of how to get things done, or what. We are so close to having a workable routine for all these kids, but we lose whole days here and there when I am focusing on this one child. Days get harder and harder to make up with nine kids in the house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 How old? Is he young enough to put on your lap for extra snuggles when he's crabby? Not as a reward but as a way to restrain and redirect him? Is he old enough to say "We are going to have family lesson in five minutes. I'd like you to be there if you can calm yourself down." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
73349 Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Knowing that my own DS is apt to become difficult when he's getting hungry, I'd try handing him a granola bar or something. If he likes them, he will be quiet long enough to eat it and probably forget what he was complaining about. (This is assuming he didn't just finish eating.) If hunger/low blood sugar was the problem, he will feel cheerier and more cooperative very quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaners Posted July 6, 2015 Author Share Posted July 6, 2015 14 years old. Developmentally closer to early elementary. Background of extreme neglect and abuse. Putting him on my lap wouldn't work, and once he is set off he can't pull it together with a timeframe. He knows what he needs to do, but in the moment the "high" of the behavior is too rewarding if that makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaners Posted July 6, 2015 Author Share Posted July 6, 2015 Haha, he is highly skilled at shoveling food into his mouth and insulting people at the same time. Or trying to disturb other people with his eating. Only when he is set off though. The rest of the time he is great and charming and pleasant and has decent table manners. When he has gotten started however... Seriously though, I hand out lots of high protein snacks in addition to our meals throughout the day, so I don't think that is usually it. I will keep an eye out to see if he is getting hungry sooner than the others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintermom Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Sounds like he is verbally abusing other family members, which I would not allow for long. Whatever needs to be done, you can't justify sacrificing other children for the sake of this one, troubled boy. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassenach Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 I can't even begin to pretend I know what to do here. Does he receive any professional help? Do you? From my vantage point, I would say, yes, it's acceptable to do family lessons without him. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassenach Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Have you considered outsourcing his education? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom22ns Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 What are you doing for him outside of school? Is he in therapy? Has he had an OT evaluation and is he getting OT? The best way to calm my ds when he lost control (only happened when he was younger than yours) was through some sensory activities. He would jump on a trampoline, swing on a platform swing. It really made a huge difference. The kitchen table is a terrible place for calming. I'm not sure if you have a better option, but I would consider creating a small dark place that he can go to, getting a weighted blanket, allowing him to jump or swing. My answer would depend on the evals and recommendations of therapists. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaners Posted July 6, 2015 Author Share Posted July 6, 2015 Sounds like he is verbally abusing other family members, which I would not allow for long. Whatever needs to be done, you can't justify sacrificing other children for the sake of this one, troubled boy. Okay, by "not allow," what do you mean? What would you do? Because me "not allowing" the behavior hasn't made it stop. As mentioned, I don't subject the other children to his abuse. I either remove him or take everyone else into the other room. What is the "whatever needs to be done?" I'm hoping this reads the way I intend it. Absolutely none of this is snarky. If you have a gameplan that would resolve this, I want it. Badly. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS Mom in NC Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 14 years old. Developmentally closer to early elementary. Background of extreme neglect and abuse. Putting him on my lap wouldn't work, and once he is set off he can't pull it together with a timeframe. He knows what he needs to do, but in the moment the "high" of the behavior is too rewarding if that makes sense. You need to see a professional specifically trained in the brain wiring of children who've been through trauma no matter how long ago it was or how old they were when it happened or how long they endured it. If you don't know of one near you then maybe you can call the one near me and see if they know of someone in your area http://www.aztrauma.org/. Don't take any advice about behavior modification/ consequences/ discipline/diet from anyone untrained in this area. You'll just make it worse. Of course if he's doing harm physically, mentally and/or emotionally to another child, you must remove him from the other child. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaners Posted July 6, 2015 Author Share Posted July 6, 2015 We are getting quarterly consults with an OT and work to do with him at home. Some of the calming things work but only if he is willing to do them. Transitioning him into the activities is difficult. The kitchen table is our best spot for him right now because he can be supervised. When he needs it, I have the kids do their quiet time work in their rooms so everyone isn't running around while he is getting settled down. We were having him sit in his room to get calmed down before, but we had too many incidents because there wasn't a set of eyes on him. We are on a (too long) waiting list for appropriate counseling/therapy that can accommodate his combination of needs and history, but we do have a regular pediatrician who is aware of things in addition to our specialist teams. We had originally sent him to our local school, but we pulled him when there were too many incidents where they weren't properly supervising him. Right now I think it would make MY day much easier, but it would set him back. The school and the way they were handling things didn't help attachment, and attachment is what a lot of what these problems stem from. We are actually doing much better than we were six months ago. We have made a lot of progress. But we do still have these incidents and handling them is my biggest homeschooling challenge right now. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaners Posted July 6, 2015 Author Share Posted July 6, 2015 You need to see a professional specifically trained in the brain wiring of children who've been through trauma no matter how long ago it was or how old they were when it happened or how long they endured it. If you don't know of one near you then maybe you can call the one near me and see if they know of someone in your area http://www.aztrauma.org/. Don't take any advice about behavior modification/ consequences/ discipline/diet from anyone untrained in this area. You'll just make it worse. Of course if he's doing harm physically, mentally and/or emotionally to another child, you must remove him from the other child. Thank you! We do "connected parenting" because of his trauma background, and I'm viewing everything through that lens. That background is why it is taking time to get into therapy that can work with his special needs and trauma needs. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom22ns Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critterfixer Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 What options do you have for one person working with him one-on-one? Regardless of his issues, and I don't pretend to have one little bit of advice to give on that end of the equation, you have made a determination that he needs that kind of supervision when it comes to his work right now. Is it just you trying to do the schooling for all the children? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS Mom in NC Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 We are getting quarterly consults with an OT and work to do with him at home. Some of the calming things work but only if he is willing to do them. Transitioning him into the activities is difficult. but we do have a regular pediatrician who is aware of things in addition to our specialist teams. I don't know if your OT, your pediatrician and your specialist teams have been trained in the brain wiring of children who have experienced trauma. If they have, then they're great options. If they haven't, then they're not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaners Posted July 6, 2015 Author Share Posted July 6, 2015 I don't know if your OT, your pediatrician and your specialist teams have been trained in the brain wiring of children who have experienced trauma. If they have, then they're great options. If they haven't, then they're not. Our pediatrician is an adoptive mama herself, and one of the specialist teams is the international adoption clinic of a major children's hospital. :) That is definitely the framework we are working within. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaners Posted July 6, 2015 Author Share Posted July 6, 2015 My husband does some of the schoolwork with the kids, but yes, I do the majority. My toddler and baby don't do schoolwork yet and my 4 year old goes to a SN preschool during the school year. The older boys are mostly at the same level so we do a lot in groups with them. This child could be doing work with the other two at his level, but I do his material separately to make things easier on everyone. He has activities he can do at the table by himself while I am working with the other kids, so that is what he is doing when I work with the other kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plink Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 When my 12yo (autistic) child gets out of control I have 3 options. 1. Ignore it and instruct the other kids to do the same. Carry on with lessons without her. She eventually burns out on her own. 2. Exercise it - take everyone for a walk and do any oral lessons (memory songs, book discussion etc.) while moving. Return to the house when everyone is back on keel. 3. Feed it - the hunger and need for love, not the poor behavior attention seeking monster. I pull out three snack choices, sit close to the tantruming child while rubbing her back, and continue to teach over and around her. Never discussing any insults actions or perceived injustices until she is quiet. Are any of these perfect? Nope, but they seem to keep us on track when our reality is a series of interruptions. Most important for my relationship with DD is to ignore her words, no matter how awful or insulting they are at the moment. If I must respond I pick one phrase and repeat it. Usually it is something like "Unacceptable. We will discuss this later." She can only fight for so long with only herself to talk to. I have to remind myself that she is reacting out of fight-or-flight, not malice. Her words are a sign of her pain internally, and she is completely incapable of seeing that in the moment. Honest discussions (usually at bedtime) about poor behavior later work much better for us than immediate confrontation. Over time she has gotten much better, and her habit of verbal explosions has greatly decreased. My littles have learned to be flexible and forgiving. They get their own pep talks to make sure that they have their own systems to escape in the moment and cope later on. It isn't ideal, but it works for us. Look into CBT if at all possible. It can be very helpful. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS Mom in NC Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Our pediatrician is an adoptive mama herself, and one of the specialist teams is the international adoption clinic of a major children's hospital. :) That is definitely the framework we are working within. Again, I have no way of knowing if those people are specifically trained in the brain wiring of traumatized children. It's a specialty based on relatively recent brain research. Either someone is specifically trained in it or they aren't. The only way to know that by asking the specific question. The person who did the class I took was an adoptive mother herself and a trained counselor and only recently received the specialized training in the brain wiring of traumatized children. Before that she didn't know about it, now she does. So again, you need to find someone with that specific training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori D. Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Meaning this in all kindness, and thinking just of the immediate homeschooling situation as a separate issue (since others in this thread providing great specifics for how they handle specific behaviors, and for finding qualified help to deal with the emotional and behavioral issues): From your signature, you have 9 children. There is only 1 of you. It is not working to stop the group learning for you to deal with the squeaky wheel, or to isolate the squeaky wheel. The oldest 4 all are special need, so you likely cannot have the oldest take over the group lesson with the youngers, and remove the squeaky wheel for one-on-one discipline/work. The only options I see, based on these facts: 1. Bring in experienced adult help Hire a retired teacher or retired homeschool mom or someone very experienced with children to come in 5 mornings (or afternoons) a week to be the second adult who can slide into whichever role you most need, either to take over the group teaching, or to take aside the squeaky wheel for solo learning / discipline / time to get control of himself. 2. Remove the squeaky wheel 5 mornings (or afternoons) a week goes elsewhere for one-on-one tutoring, removing him from being able to "stir the pot" of the group. Hopefully at the end of 6 months of consistent 5 half-days a week of an extra adult working with you, the squeaky wheel will have made more progress, and the repeated "breaking the circuit" and preventing the squeaky wheel from disrupting the group will have helped the squeaky wheel to have made some new, positive brain connections (and while getting some emotional/behavioral therapy help), and you could drop down to just 2-3 times a week of that extra adult, with the hope of by the end of one full year, no longer have that need. OR, you may find it so helpful to have an extra adult for providing more one-on-one time as needed, that you keep going with that extra help for everyone's benefit! ;) If hiring help is not possible, what about getting 2 volunteers (one 3x/week and one 2x/week) -- talk to your local university or community college special ed department and see if you can provide an internship for students to get direct experience in working with special needs students in your home. If neither hiring or interns are possibilities, do you have a relative or close friend who could volunteer to come in several days a week? A local social services or church ministry volunteer? Or are there any local homeschool families you are close with who could come alongside you for awhile and take your squeaky wheel for several mornings or afternoons a week? If none of those options are possible, then school may be your only option, much as it would set back the squeaky wheel's progress. Is part time school (just 2-3 classes a day) an option? Or a virtual charter school, where he goes to a school setting and does the charter school work under the eye of the charter overseeing teacher several days a week, and does the rest at home? Wishing you ALL the best in finding a solution that is best for ALL the family members! :grouphug: Warmest regards, Lori D. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critterfixer Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 If you have to do all of this on your own, I figure you've got to be exhausted. :grouphug: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaners Posted July 6, 2015 Author Share Posted July 6, 2015 Thank you all so much. This is really helping me talk through these issues with myself and reconsider some things I hadn't thought about in a while. I think everyone directly involved has gotten used to our status quo (and WOW, I have discovered that you can get used to some really strange stuff when it is your normal routine!) and seeing how it looks to outsiders is super helpful. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaners Posted July 6, 2015 Author Share Posted July 6, 2015 Having someone come in every day won't be able to happen. I do have a friend who comes by to clean and who is able to watch everyone. It would definitely be possible for me to hire her for an extra day a week to supervise him or the other kids, and that might be an option we take. My husband is home for two days, and we don't have these problems hardly ever when he is here. This child is typically very well behaved when someone else is here, although this friend has seen him meltdown before and knows what that is like. That would be almost half the week likely free from issues though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prairiewindmomma Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 I agree with Lori D.'s assessment. I would up the therapy--perhaps look at Ross Green's protocol (the guy who wrote The Explosive Child). The model tries to keep the kid in thinking mode rather than fight or flight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 If you haven't done so, I would also cross-post this question on the Learning Challenges or Special Needs subforums. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlsdMama Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 If I don't get to this later (tomorrow AM) could you PM me and nudge me to post? I have to leave shortly to tutor and can't type out on my phone. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storygirl Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 beaners, if you can't send him to school, and you can't consistently bring someone in to your home to help, can you consider sending the other children to school for a period of time, so that you can focus solely on his needs? I'm sorry things are so rough. I'm thankful that he has you in his life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umsami Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Somebody else mentioned Ross Greene. I just read an article about him (again) on Mother Jones http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/05/schools-behavior-discipline-collaborative-proactive-solutions-ross-greene He has a bunch of free stuff on his website http://www.livesinthebalance.org 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomOfABunch Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 First, kudos to you for doing an amazing job! Before thinking about academics for this child, I would spend some tackling behavior and compliance. It sounds like his behaviors may be either for attention or to avoid working, or a combination of those. Something I have learned is that problem behaviors occur most often when the demand is too high or when reinforcement is too low. So, to start, I would lower the level of his work to things you know he can already do while at the same time increasing the amount of reinforcement for staying on task and completing simple tasks. Once his behavior settles down, you will slowly increase the demands. Reinforcement can be anything he likes: attention, time with a toy/game, food, etc., whatever he finds motivating (this can change.) Don't feel bad taking the time to do this, you will be setting expectations and routines for how work is to be done in your homeschool, as well as teaching what the behavioral expectations are. In B&M schools, September/October is often devoted entirely to this. If you haven't already done so, I would set him up with an independent work schedule, like a to do list. Start with 1-2 things and when the list is completed, he gets_______. For the time being, I would not expect his to be able to be instructed in a group. His only goal during group time would be to have appropriate behavior so that the others can learn. That being said, is there any group work that you can make easier on yourself? For example, if you're reading Story of the World outloud, can you get the CD? That way, the group is still going, but you would be more available to work on behavior. So to start: 1. Decrease his work. 2. Increase reinforcement. 3. Ignore inappropriate behavior and instruct the other kids to do the same. 4. Work on teaching him to ask for help or ask for a break with words instead of with behavior. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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