SC Ruling: Debate Edition

[elegantlion]

Your point? Religious beliefs on gay marriage are irrelevant when the discussion regards what should be done in US law, a law that is based upon separation of religion from law. The US is not a Christian theocracy nor a Muslim theocracy, it isn't any form of theocracy.

 

It should be a song, then maybe people will remember that. 

[Cammie]

It should be a song, then maybe people will remember that. 

 

Now you have me wondering what rhymes with theocracy??

[elegantlion]

Now you have me wondering what rhymes with theocracy??

 

Bureaucracy, democracy...

[Btervet]

Unfortunately, it doesn't matter what you believe.  If they are both adults, and both consent, then there shouldn't be any barriers to them getting married.

 The whole point is that they can't consent. And yes, if it were just my belief it wouldn't matter. However, if it were ever to come up in court, which it won't because no one is fighting for it, I would bet there would be good evidence to the fact that you cannot consent to incest. That's all I will say on the matter for now. It's largely a moot point because NO ONE is fighting for incest to be legal. 

 

What's absurd to be is the risk analysis here. Let's deny 3% of the population access to marriage because in some crazy world some absurdly small amount of people might start fighting for incest to be legal?!? It just isn't going to happen.

[eternalsummer]

There is no special 'gay marriage'. There's marriage, and an equal ability to access it. Marriage equality.

 

Semantics.  I maintain "gay marriage" is an oxymoron.

 

You seem to be the only one to think so. So here are the options: Either you are the very smartest person on this thread - yet not quite smart enough to explain yourself to hoi polloi - or your quote is really not relevant at all.

 

Three guesses as to which option I think is the correct one, and the first two don't count.

 

Here's a link to two of my earlier posts ITT providing context for you;

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/555815-sc-ruling-debate-edition/?p=6434126

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/555815-sc-ruling-debate-edition/?p=6434432

 

Well that's fascinating. Invade an established society, misunderstand it, kill large chunks of it's population off by disease and force, force the children to be taken away from their parents and taught how to be 'civilized' so they never learn their oral traditons, and then ask them to come up with primary sources decades later to prove things about their own past to you. Lovely. My spouse is also NA and I find things you say about his culture offensive. And yes, they recognized unions of many kinds.

 

 

Requiring evidence for a claim is just basic scholarship and common sense.  Anybody can say anything.

 

Primary sources that prove a two-spirit was married to the same sex?

 

You are asking about a different people with very different ideas about gender and relying on that being explained accurately by people interested enough to write about it that it would survive the test of time. Not only that but that they would trust those sociologists or explorers enough to explain the concept after experiencing their limited views towards gender roles.

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=sGKL6E9_J6IC&pg=PA341&lpg=PA341&dq=#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

The person in this picture was born a man and was married to a man. Their name is We-wa and they were a Zuni Native American from New Mexico. The picture was taken in 1886.

 

I don't see anything in that picture or in the text accompanying it indicating marriage.  At any rate, the preponderant tendency throughout history is clear.  Across cultures around the world, marriage has consistently been recognized as heterosexual, as a rule.  Marginal exceptions exist (we're living in one), but exceptions don't disprove the rule (the predominant, normal, healthy tendency).

[fraidycat]

Oooh, I just murdered a Salt n Pepa song in defense of like hussiness.  Perhaps I need to murder one for this, too.  Hmmm....

 

Or is "American Idiot" by GreenDay close enough?

[*Lulu*]

"The more things change the more they stay the same."

 

---"Don’t give precious things to dogs. Don’t cast your pearls before swine. If you do, the pigs will trample the pearls with their little pigs’ feet, and then they will turn back and attack you."---Matthew 7:6 the Voice

 

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

 

---"There is no noise as powerful as the sound of the marching feet of a determined people.†---Martin Luther King, Jr. Papers Project

 

 

Some days I feel a smug satisfaction in my judgement about which posters belong on my ignore list.

[Slartibartfast]

We can all look back and see what I've posted.  I've even asked for specific citation.  You have my posts.  Why can't you provide the citation?  Because it doesn't exist.  I explained how history works.  That's it.

 

Really, without evidence how else would you know better?  Hearsay?  People make up things all the time, especially when they have an agenda.

 

 

 

""Among Mamitarees if a boy shows any symptoms of effeminacy or girlish inclinations he is put among the girls, dressed in their way, brought up with them, and sometimes married to men." Nicholas Biddle, original journals of the Lewis and Clark expeditions"

 

"Among the women I saw some men dressed like women, with whom they go about regularly, never joining the men. . . . From this I inferred they must be hermaphrodites, but from what I learned later I understood that they were sodomites, dedicated to nefarious practices. From all the foregoing I conclude that in this matter of incontinence there will be much to do when the Holy Faith and the Christian religion are established among them." Franciscan Pedro Font's diary

[*Lulu*]

""Among Mamitarees if a boy shows any symptoms of effeminacy or girlish inclinations he is put among the girls, dressed in their way, brought up with them, and sometimes married to men." Nicholas Biddle, original journals of the Lewis and Clark expeditions"

 

"Among the women I saw some men dressed like women, with whom they go about regularly, never joining the men. . . . From this I inferred they must be hermaphrodites, but from what I learned later I understood that they were sodomites, dedicated to nefarious practices. From all the foregoing I conclude that in this matter of incontinence there will be much to do when the Holy Faith and the Christian religion are established among them." Franciscan Pedro Font's diary

Hearsay!

 

:p

[Audrey]

I want freedom for my faith, beliefs, practices, traditions. This means that others will have theirs as well. The people I've known to be behind the "turn America into a theocracy" are the type who would forbid my faith...no thank you. 

 

 

I think this is one of the things that some people don't get (but which you, obviously, do).   They want freedom FOR practicing their faith, yet do not understand that it necessitates that others must have freedom FROM their faith in order to have the same freedom FOR practicing their own faith.  

[eternalsummer]

 

 

 

There were your original statements (which, by the way, weren't even in this thread): 

 

 

 

 

 

The first quote was in response to someone saying civilization was in decline. The second was in response to another poster who wasn't sure where you were going with that quote. 

 

Are you saying people will give up on civilization because it's not worth fighting for anymore? I'm just.... lost. 

 

While we're throwing quotations around, how about:

 

"We will never have true civilization until we have learned to recognize the rights of others." -- Will Rogers 

 

 

In my last post I cited two of my earlier posts providing context for the quote.  Simply put, history has shown us degeneracy accompanies collapse.  This time is no exception.

 

What on earth do you think that has to do with elegantlion's comment?

 

She wrote about history.  I addressed history.  Problem?

 

Your point? Religious beliefs on gay marriage are irrelevant when the discussion regards what should be done in US law, a law that is based upon separation of religion from law. The US is not a Christian theocracy nor a Muslim theocracy, it isn't any form of theocracy. If you missed it, the point of the quote is that a scholar has enough knowledge to understand and accept when he has been disproven, the fool is too ignorant to even know when he has been 'beat'.

 

Wait, but you still think you're right.  The quote applies equally to you.  Whoops.

 

Since we're resorting to pithy quotes...

 

“At some point in our lifetime, gay marriage won't be an issue, and everyone who stood against this civil right will look as outdated as George Wallace standing on the school steps keeping James Hood from entering the University of Alabama because he was black.†

 

 George Clooney

 

“I'm a supporter of gay rights. And not a closet supporter either. From the time I was a kid, I have never been able to understand attacks upon the gay community. There are so many qualities that make up a human being... by the time I get through with all the things that I really admire about people, what they do with their private parts is probably so low on the list that it is irrelevant.†

― Paul Newman

 

George Clooney? Are you serious?  I think I'm going to go with Einstein on this one.  Paul Newman?  These people are entertainers, not scholars, not serious thinkers.  For that matter, Martin Luther King Jr. considered homosexuality itself a "problem".

[Shahrazad]

Please see: 

 

""Among Mamitarees if a boy shows any symptoms of effeminacy or girlish inclinations he is put among the girls, dressed in their way, brought up with them, and sometimes married to men." Nicholas Biddle, original journals of the Lewis and Clark expeditions"

 

"Among the women I saw some men dressed like women, with whom they go about regularly, never joining the men. . . . From this I inferred they must be hermaphrodites, but from what I learned later I understood that they were sodomites, dedicated to nefarious practices. From all the foregoing I conclude that in this matter of incontinence there will be much to do when the Holy Faith and the Christian religion are established among them." Franciscan Pedro Font's diary

 

Quick, go back and edit your post before you look like a complete idiot now that you've been disproven!

[eternalsummer]

"The more things change the more they stay the same."

 

---"Don’t give precious things to dogs. Don’t cast your pearls before swine. If you do, the pigs will trample the pearls with their little pigs’ feet, and then they will turn back and attack you."---Matthew 7:6 the Voice

 

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

 

---"There is no noise as powerful as the sound of the marching feet of a determined people.†---Martin Luther King, Jr. Papers Project

 

 

Some days I feel a smug satisfaction in my judgement about which posters belong on my ignore list.

 

Martin Luther King held homosexuality itself to be a "problem";

 

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/16/what-did-mlk-think-about-gay-people/

[eternalsummer]

""Among Mamitarees if a boy shows any symptoms of effeminacy or girlish inclinations he is put among the girls, dressed in their way, brought up with them, and sometimes married to men." Nicholas Biddle, original journals of the Lewis and Clark expeditions"

 

"Among the women I saw some men dressed like women, with whom they go about regularly, never joining the men. . . . From this I inferred they must be hermaphrodites, but from what I learned later I understood that they were sodomites, dedicated to nefarious practices. From all the foregoing I conclude that in this matter of incontinence there will be much to do when the Holy Faith and the Christian religion are established among them." Franciscan Pedro Font's diary

 

 

Please see: 

 

 

Quick, go back and edit your post before you look like a complete idiot now that you've been disproven!

 

Asking for evidence isn't being disproven.  Journal entries from white people passing through isn't primary source evidence, either, but in any case I've already addressed the prospect of "gay marriage" among some Native American tribes, and also indicated it would have been concomitant with their society's collapse, which is consistent with the rest of my argument.

[Hunter's Moon]

Martin Luther King held homosexuality itself to be a "problem";

 

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/16/what-did-mlk-think-about-gay-people/

 

And Albert Einstein had many an extra-marital affair. Does that not make him a degenerate? 

[elegantlion]

 

 

George Clooney? Are you serious?  I think I'm going to go with Einstein on this one.  Paul Newman?  These people are entertainers, not scholars, not serious thinkers.  For that matter, Martin Luther King Jr. considered homosexuality itself a "problem".

 

Well the Clooney and Newman quotes were actually relevant to same-sex marriage, but I'm not sure that has any significance to you. 

[Slartibartfast]

Asking for evidence isn't being disproven.  Journal entries from white people passing through isn't primary source evidence, either, but in any case I've already addressed the prospect of "gay marriage" among some Native American tribes, and also indicated it would have been concomitant with their society's collapse, which is consistent with the rest of my argument.

 

 

 

http://www.princeton.edu/~refdesk/primary2.html

 

 

A primary source is a document or physical object which was written or created during the time under study. These sources were present during an experience or time period and offer an inside view of a particular event. Some types of primary sources include:

• ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS (excerpts or translations acceptable): Diaries, speeches, manuscripts, letters, interviews, news film footage, autobiographies, official records 
• CREATIVE WORKS: Poetry, drama, novels, music, art 
• RELICS OR ARTIFACTS: Pottery, furniture, clothing, building

[Shahrazad]

You seriously are making no sense. Props to the people who are trying to legitimately engage with you as opposed to my own sarcasm. So, Native Americans were destroyed and homosexual marriage was related to the fact that they were on the way down even though plenty of tribes who were wiped out did not have gay marriage either. Your correlation of societies allowing gay marriage and societies that are crumbling doesn't hold up because there are many, many other factors that they share that are totally unrelated to homosexuality, permissiveness, or liberalism. And right now, some of the most thriving nations have equal marriage rights for all. The conservative countries like Qatar and the Gulf region, on the other hand have many issues that European permissive countries do not and healthcare and access to clean food and water are still issues even in these rich countries. With the internal struggles most of the middle east (conservative countries: Syria, Iraq, Libya, Tunisia, Egypt...etc) have gone through recently, THEY are the crumbling societies, right now, not the West. And I say that as someone who has a lot of love and connection to my family's country of origin in the ME as well.

[eternalsummer]

And Albert Einstein had many an extra-marital affair. Does that not make him a degenerate? 

 

The important thing is what they're saying.  Martin Luther King Jr. had many affairs too.  Does that make him wrong?  Nope.

 

Well the Clooney and Newman quotes were actually relevant to same-sex marriage, but I'm not sure that has any significance to you. 

 

You're right.  What entertainers think about marriage doesn't have any significance to me.

[elegantlion]

 

How are journal entries from observers not primary sources?

 

http://www.princeton.edu/~refdesk/primary2.html

 

 

A primary source is a document or physical object which was written or created during the time under study. These sources were present during an experience or time period and offer an inside view of a particular event. Some types of primary sources include:

• ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS (excerpts or translations acceptable): Diaries, speeches, manuscripts, letters, interviews, news film footage, autobiographies, official records 
• CREATIVE WORKS: Poetry, drama, novels, music, art 
• RELICS OR ARTIFACTS: Pottery, furniture, clothing, buildings

 

 

:iagree:  Journal entries are indeed primary sources if they are writing about their current time. According to my history professor (sorry, not listing the name, trust me he's an actual historian, PhD from Duke), journal entries are some of the better primary sources because they were not necessarily designed to see publication. They hold less bias than a newspaper article of the same time might. 

[*Lulu*]

Very slowly for those who struggle with this arc of the moral universe concept:

 

-1776-

 

White, straight (or straight passing) men rule, everyone else can just deal b/c God says.

 

-1863-

 

White and Black, straight (or straight passing) men rule, (as long as the black men remember they are not as equal), everyone else can just deal b/c God says.

 

-1920-

 

White and Black, straight (or straight passing) men and women rule, (as long as the black men and all the women remember they are not as equal), everyone else can just deal b/c God says.

 

-1924-

 

White, Black, and Native American, straight (or straight passing) men and women rule, (as long as the black and Native American men and all the women remember they are not as equal), everyone else can just deal b/c God says.

 

-1964-

 

White, Black, and Native American, straight (or straight passing) men and women rule, (AND WE MEAN IT but no interracial marriage- that's just wrong), everyone else can just deal b/c God says.

 

-1967-

 

Straight (or straight passing) men and women rule, (AND WE REALLY MEAN IT THIS TIME), everyone else can just deal b/c God says.

 

-2015-

 

All men and women rule, (AND THIS TIME WE HOPE EVERYONE GETS THE DEFINITION OF "ALL" and "EQUAL"), everyone else can just deal b/c God says.

[albeto.]

Fact remains that the recognition of the heterosexual nature of marriage was universally consistent worldwide for thousands of years.  That's evidence.

 

Meanwhile, we also have evidence of what happens to societies that degenerate.

 

Not all "progress" is positive.  

 

Only if you ignore the evidence of same sex marriage.

 

 

Meanwhile, this assertion rests on the argument that your moral code is the standard for social generation. Evidence suggests societies continue to decrease in violence, increase in health and welfare. 

 

Only if you don't consider personal safety and well being positive. 

 

 You can progress right off a cliff.

 

Are you threatening me?

 

Okay, good luck paying off all that debt and surviving the next world war (see the quote by Einstein).

 

This is quite a statement. Because homosexuality isn't successfully suppressed and an increasing number of people have the audacity to live their lives as they choose, the world is in debt and humanity will destroy itself. You make this claim despite the lack of financial collapse and despite increasing political or social tensions in nations like Canada, Scandinavian countries, Spain, South Africa, Portugal, Iceland, Argentina,France, Brazil, Uruguay, New Zealand, Britain, Luxembourg, and Ireland. Such an extraordinary claim requires significant evidence. Your interpretation of marriage in history can't be your only evidence. From what else do you draw these opinions?

 

And how does that work, precisely? Are gay people more violent in general, despite all the evidence to the contrary? Does homosexuality increase aggression in some non-genetic, non-molecular way we don't know about but can still determine with certainty? Do they spend more money than, oh say, the US does on military and spying every year? On what? Bling? 

 

No, I'm talking about all of human history worldwide from the beginning of recorded time until very, very recently (a few decades).

 

Except for the examples you ignore. 

 

Your blaming a humanitarian desolation on homosexuality is the very epitome of homophobia. It's no different than what Josh Duggar, Pat Robertson, or the pope says. 

[Audrey]

But all Americans aren't represented by that thin slice of "our society". Not to mention the fact that the founding fathers most certainly were not basing this governments documents on the Bible. Cause many of them didn't believe it. Or butchered it to their improved version because the original wasn't acceptable. Those aren't opinions btw, just well known historical facts.

 

Again, I'm not arguing that for many cultures, marriage was only for heterosexuals. However, it is absurd to clay marriage as a concept stems fro the Bible. It's just historically wrong. Marriage existed prior to and outside of Biblical traditions and societies. And our nation, this beautiful and bloody nation, has many cultural traditions in it, not just biblical ones. This nation was not founded as a theocracy, nor is it now a theocracy. The Bible does not own the concept of marriage.

 

-----

 

I'm choosing to use the ignore feature for the first time ever on the other poster here. The defense of the genocide of the Native Americans as the order nature intended is so over the top it's inexcusable.

 

What you're missing, though, is the last gasps of an old guard argument that does not hold water, let alone any facts or relevancy.   And, finally, the NORM is that our society has moved past condemning homosexual relationships and toward acceptance, both socially and legally.  The twisting of definitions of "normal,"  "nature/natural" and "degenerate/degeneracy" is the only thing the old guard has to use to defend themselves.

[eternalsummer]

 

http://www.princeton.edu/~refdesk/primary2.html

 

 

A primary source is a document or physical object which was written or created during the time under study. These sources were present during an experience or time period and offer an inside view of a particular event. Some types of primary sources include:

• ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS (excerpts or translations acceptable): Diaries, speeches, manuscripts, letters, interviews, news film footage, autobiographies, official records 
• CREATIVE WORKS: Poetry, drama, novels, music, art 
• RELICS OR ARTIFACTS: Pottery, furniture, clothing, building

 

 

That's a neat semantic point, but it doesn't change the debate.  Again - "in any case I've already addressed the prospect of 'gay marriage' among some Native American tribes, and also indicated it would have been concomitant with their society's collapse, which is consistent with the rest of my argument."

 

You seriously are making no sense. Props to the people who are trying to legitimately engage with you as opposed to my own sarcasm. So, Native Americans were destroyed and homosexual marriage was related to the fact that they were on the way down even though plenty of tribes who were wiped out did not have gay marriage either. Your correlation of societies allowing gay marriage and societies that are crumbling doesn't hold up because there are many, many other factors that they share that are totally unrelated to homosexuality, permissiveness, or liberalism. And right now, some of the most thriving nations have equal marriage rights for all. The conservative countries like Qatar and the Gulf region, on the other hand have many issues that European permissive countries do not and healthcare and access to clean food and water are still issues even in these rich countries. With the internal struggles most of the middle east (conservative countries: Syria, Iraq, Libya, Tunisia, Egypt...etc) have gone through recently, THEY are the crumbling societies, right now, not the West. And I say that as someone who has a lot of love and connection to my family's country of origin in the ME as well.

 

The rule of history is clear.  An increased tolerance for sexual deviancy, including homosexuality, accompanies social decline and collapse.  This is true in Babylon, Sodom and Gomorrah, ancient Rome, ancient Baghdad, the Ottoman Empire, and Germany prior to its defeat in World War 2.  It's also true today.  It is no accident degeneracy is spreading throughout the Western world on the eve of World War 3 (the destruction of the Western world).  By the way, to say degeneracy accompanies collapse doesn't mean it's the only thing to accompany collapse.  Car crashes correlate with dying.  So do gunshots.

 

Look at stars; they end in different ways, depending on their mass/energy and configuration (eg. present in a binary system or not).  Some collapse.  Some explode.  Some just burn out.  The same is true for societies.

[elegantlion]

 

 

 

You're right.  What entertainers think about marriage doesn't have any significance to me.

 

Both of these entertainers have stepped out of the entertainment realm and worked to make a difference through charity and humanitarian works. I think that gives them a voice. If you can't hear them, or don't care, that's your problem. They, however, are/were trying to be a part of the solution that provides a future for this world. 

 

Newman was also a businessman. You might want to read about his charitable works. 

 

Clooney was named as one of TIME's 100 most influential people. Look at his humanitarian work stats including this. 

 

"On March 16, 2012, Clooney was arrested outside the Sudanese Embassy for civil disobedience.^[70][71] He intended to be arrested when he planned the protest.^[71] Several other prominent participants were also arrested, including Martin Luther King III.^[71]" 

[Audrey]

Maybe a certain absurd poster here just had a lot to drink after reading some Ayn Rand and a few weird philosophy books. Maybe this is performance art. Maybe she's acting out a one-woman parody.

 

 

Maybe someone needs to confiscate her Equity card, then.

[Slartibartfast]

That's a neat semantic point, but it doesn't change the debate.  Again - "in any case I've already addressed the prospect of 'gay marriage' among some Native American tribes, and also indicated it would have been concomitant with their society's collapse, which is consistent with the rest of my argument."

 

 

The rule of history is clear.  An increased tolerance for sexual deviancy, including homosexuality, accompanies social decline and collapse.  This is true in Babylon, Sodom and Gomorrah, ancient Rome, ancient Baghdad, the Ottoman Empire, and Germany prior to its defeat in World War 2.  It's also true today.  It is no accident degeneracy is spreading throughout the Western world on the eve of World War 3 (the destruction of the Western world).  By the way, to say degeneracy accompanies collapse doesn't mean it's the only thing to accompany collapse.  Car crashes correlate with dying.  So do gunshots.

 

Look at stars; they end in different ways, depending on their mass/energy and configuration (eg. present in a binary system or not).  Some collapse.  Some explode.  Some just burn out.  The same is true for societies.

 

 

Germany put their homosexuals in concentration camps and castrated them. How was that tolerant? The pink triangle is used as a symbol for gay pride because Nazis put pink triangle badges on the homosexuals like they did yellow stars on the Jews.

 

What do you think we ought to "do" with the homosexuals? How intolerant does a society have to be before we are "safe" from our civilization collapsing? What exactly are you suggesting here?

 

This is getting weird.

[Hunter's Moon]

The important thing is what they're saying.  Martin Luther King Jr. had many affairs too.  Does that make him wrong?  Nope.

 

You're right, it doesn't. The difference is you're trying to claim gay marriage will lead to the decline of civilization by quoting Einstein. 

 

MLK was leading a civil rights movement, and no matter his moral failings, his quote was directly related to his cause. 

 

The quote you're using is not directly related to your cause. Einstein was very literally saying that we will destroy ourselves with the use of nuclear weapons. Not that homosexual marriage or any such thing will lead to the break down of society and life as we know it. 

[fraidycat]

Only if you ignore the evidence of same sex marriage.

 

 

Meanwhile, this assertion rests on the argument that your moral code is the standard for social generation. Evidence suggests societies continue to decrease in violence, increase in health and welfare. 

 

Only if you don't consider personal safety and well being positive. 

 

 

Are you threatening me?

 

 

This is quite a statement. Because homosexuality isn't successfully suppressed and an increasing number of people have the audacity to live their lives as they choose, the world is in debt and humanity will destroy itself. You make this claim despite the lack of financial collapse and despite increasing political or social tensions in nations like Canada, Scandinavian countries, Spain, South Africa, Portugal, Iceland, Argentina,France, Brazil, Uruguay, New Zealand, Britain, Luxembourg, and Ireland. Such an extraordinary claim requires significant evidence. Your interpretation of marriage in history can't be your only evidence. From what else do you draw these opinions?

 

And how does that work, precisely? Are gay people more violent in general, despite all the evidence to the contrary? Does homosexuality increase aggression in some non-genetic, non-molecular way we don't know about but can still determine with certainty? Do they spend more money than, oh say, the US does on military and spying every year? On what? Bling?

 

 

Except for the examples you ignore. 

 

Your blaming a humanitarian desolation on homosexuality is the very epitome of homophobia. It's no different than what Josh Duggar, Pat Robertson, or the pope says. 

 

Can't like so I have to quote.   :iagree: And also, LOL at the bolded.   :lol:

[Shahrazad]

That's a neat semantic point, but it doesn't change the debate.  Again - "in any case I've already addressed the prospect of 'gay marriage' among some Native American tribes, and also indicated it would have been concomitant with their society's collapse, which is consistent with the rest of my argument."

 

 

The rule of history is clear.  An increased tolerance for sexual deviancy, including homosexuality, accompanies social decline and collapse.  This is true in Babylon, Sodom and Gomorrah, ancient Rome, ancient Baghdad, the Ottoman Empire, and Germany prior to its defeat in World War 2.  It's also true today.  It is no accident degeneracy is spreading throughout the Western world on the eve of World War 3 (the destruction of the Western world).  By the way, to say degeneracy accompanies collapse doesn't mean it's the only thing to accompany collapse.  Car crashes correlate with dying.  So do gunshots.

 

Look at stars; they end in different ways, depending on their mass/energy and configuration (eg. present in a binary system or not).  Some collapse.  Some explode.  Some just burn out.  The same is true for societies.

 

Please provide primary sources that increased tolerance for sexual deviancy and homosexuality accompanied the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and ancient Baghdad. Please provide evidence that the biblical description of Sodom and Gomorrah actually occurred (I believe it did, according to my faith, but I sure as heck can't prove it via historical record outside my religious texts ;) ). Please provide an explanation of why animals that have sex with the same gender still exist? Shouldn't animal civilization have collapsed by now with their disgusting, filthy, sexual deviance and their taste for sex with the same gender? Please provide proof that your defined sexual deviance (subject to definition by your own arbitrary social constructs) are not present in any thriving societies and that they had any relation to the decline of the past societies. Please explain why things that I would consider sexual deviation (sexual slavery, rape, spousal rape, pedophilia, incest) occurred when societies were on the rise. Ancient Egyptian society encouraged the monarchs to marry their siblings and at times, their children. Should we go back to that since it occurred when they were on the rise? Correlation does not equal causation. You are a statistician's nightmare.

[eternalsummer]

:iagree:  Journal entries are indeed primary sources if they are writing about their current time. According to my history professor (sorry, not listing the name, trust me he's an actual historian, PhD from Duke), journal entries are some of the better primary sources because they were not necessarily designed to see publication. They hold less bias than a newspaper article of the same time might. 

 

Already addressed - a semantic distinction, nothing more.

 

Very slowly for those who struggle with this arc of the moral universe concept:

 

-1776-

 

White, straight (or straight passing) men rule, everyone else can just deal b/c God says.

 

-1863-

 

White and Black, straight (or straight passing) men rule, (as long as the black men remember they are not as equal), everyone else can just deal b/c God says.

 

-1920-

 

White and Black, straight (or straight passing) men and women rule, (as long as the black men and all the women remember they are not as equal), everyone else can just deal b/c God says.

 

-1924-

 

White, Black, and Native American, straight (or straight passing) men and women rule, (as long as the black and Native American men and all the women remember they are not as equal), everyone else can just deal b/c God says.

 

-1964-

 

White, Black, and Native American, straight (or straight passing) men and women rule, (AND WE MEAN IT but no interracial marriage- that's just wrong), everyone else can just deal b/c God says.

 

-1967-

 

Straight (or straight passing) men and women rule, (AND WE REALLY MEAN IT THIS TIME), everyone else can just deal b/c God says.

 

-2015-

 

All men and women rule, (AND THIS TIME WE HOPE EVERYONE GETS THE DEFINITION OF "ALL" and "EQUAL"), everyone else can just deal b/c God says.

 

 It's linear until it's not.

 

Only if you ignore the evidence of same sex marriage.

 

 

Meanwhile, this assertion rests on the argument that your moral code is the standard for social generation. Evidence suggests societies continue to decrease in violence, increase in health and welfare. 

 

Only if you don't consider personal safety and well being positive. 

 

 

Are you threatening me?

 

 

This is quite a statement. Because homosexuality isn't successfully suppressed and an increasing number of people have the audacity to live their lives as they choose, the world is in debt and humanity will destroy itself. You make this claim despite the lack of financial collapse and despite increasing political or social tensions in nations like Canada, Scandinavian countries, Spain, South Africa, Portugal, Iceland, Argentina,France, Brazil, Uruguay, New Zealand, Britain, Luxembourg, and Ireland. Such an extraordinary claim requires significant evidence. Your interpretation of marriage in history can't be your only evidence. From what else do you draw these opinions?

 

And how does that work, precisely? Are gay people more violent in general, despite all the evidence to the contrary? Does homosexuality increase aggression in some non-genetic, non-molecular way we don't know about but can still determine with certainty? Do they spend more money than, oh say, the US does on military and spying every year? On what? Bling? 

 

 

Except for the examples you ignore. 

 

Your blaming a humanitarian desolation on homosexuality is the very epitome of homophobia. It's no different than what Josh Duggar, Pat Robertson, or the pope says. 

 

First sentence, second paragraph from your link;

 

"While it is a relatively new practice that same-sex couples are being granted the same form of legal marital recognition as commonly used by mixed-sexed couples, there is some history of recorded same-sex unions around the world."  Whoops.

 

"unions" are not equivalent with "marriage".

 

"Less violent than ever", and yet on the precipice of World War 3, a war that will destroy the world as we know it.  Hmm.

 

By the way, I'm not "blaming" homosexuality; that's a strawman, one I've refuted probably half a dozen times already.  Correlation does not equal causation.

 

What you're missing, though, is the last gasps of an old guard argument that does not hold water, let alone any facts or relevancy.   And, finally, the NORM is that our society has moved past condemning homosexual relationships and toward acceptance, both socially and legally.  The twisting of definitions of "normal,"  "nature/natural" and "degenerate/degeneracy" is the only thing the old guard has to use to defend themselves.

 

Do you have an actual argument besides slander?  #irony

[Audrey]

 

 

 

Do you have an actual argument besides slander?  #irony

 

 

You made my point.  Do you have an actual argument besides twisting definitions and dismissing facts?

[Shahrazad]

I think I'm getting a better picture here. On the precipice of World War 3, a war that will destroy the world as we know it? I think you're underselling, try to be more dramatic. Seems like all this faux-intellectual talk may just be a thinly veiled conspiracy theorist illuminati type who would normally be disregarded but is being engaged because she's keeping it under wraps.

 

Realistically, climate change is more likely to destroy the world as we know it than World War 3: Scrabble Edition and World War 4: Sticks vs Stones.

 

[Tanaqui]

Unfortunately, it doesn't matter what you believe.  If they are both adults, and both consent, then there shouldn't be any barriers to them getting married.

 

Welp, you've convinced me. Incest for everybody! Let's you and me make a dedicated thread on the subject and we'll see if we can convince EVERYBODY.

 

She wrote about history.  I addressed history.  Problem?

 

That's how chatbots operate. You mention that you'd like to go to the Big Apple, and they talk about the apple harvest, and some programmer somewhere thinks that this is a normal conversation, but it is not. It's a sad day when humans fail the Turing test.

 

 

The rule of history is clear.  An increased tolerance for sexual deviancy, including homosexuality, accompanies social decline and collapse.  This is true in Babylon, Sodom and Gomorrah, ancient Rome, ancient Baghdad, the Ottoman Empire, and Germany prior to its defeat in World War 2.

 

1. That is, historically speaking, a minority opinion on the cause of the fall of Sodom and Gomorrah. More traditionally, their sins are considered to be a lack of hospitality and charity towards strangers.

 

2. You could write a book on the decline and fall of the Roman empire. Indeed, people have written whole books on just that subject. Suffice to say, "gays!!!!" is not the reason.

 

3. Germany? Germany, which locked up its gays in concentration camps? ROFL.

 

I don't know enough about the other examples on your little list to make a comment, but I strongly doubt the historical record is nearly as clear as you claim.

 

[Tanaqui]

 

Realistically, climate change is more likely to destroy the world as we know it than World War 3: Scrabble Edition and World War 4: Sticks vs Stones.

 

Well, climate change will lead to war, has already been cited as a precipitating cause in the Syrian civil war, in fact.

 

[Shahrazad]

Hate, it has caused a lot of problems in the world, but has not solved one yet. - Maya Angelou

Hate, anger, fear, revenge... these are always at the root of violent conflicts and wars. The prevention is not more hate, against LGBTIQ people, immigrants, people of other countries, or against Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhist, Atheists, Pagans...etc. Love and acceptance of diversity would be a better prevention. Tolerance is not the downfall of society.

 

[Hunter's Moon]

I think I'm getting a better picture here. On the precipice of World War 3, a war that will destroy the world as we know it? I think you're underselling, try to be more dramatic. Seems like all this faux-intellectual talk may just be a thinly veiled conspiracy theorist illuminati type who would normally be disregarded but is being engaged because she's keeping it under wraps.

 

Realistically, climate change is more likely to destroy the world as we know it than World War 3: Scrabble Edition and World War 4: Sticks vs Stones.

 

I have to agree, which is why I'm going to stop engaging. 

 

This has probably been the weirdest internet exchange I've ever had (and quite possibly, weirdest exchange ever). 

[CaffeineDiary]

The rule of history is clear. An increased tolerance for sexual deviancy, including homosexuality, accompanies social decline and collapse.

This is true in Babylon, Sodom and Gomorrah, ancient Rome, ancient Baghdad, the Ottoman Empire, and Germany prior to its defeat in World War 2.

 

It's also true today. It is no accident degeneracy is spreading throughout the Western world on the eve of World War 3 (the destruction of the Western world). By the way, to say degeneracy accompanies collapse doesn't mean it's the only thing to accompany collapse. Car crashes correlate with dying. So do gunshots.

 

Look at stars; they end in different ways, depending on their mass/energy and configuration (eg. present in a binary system or not). Some collapse. Some explode. Some just burn out. The same is true for societies.

Citations needed.

[elegantlion]

I think I'm getting a better picture here. On the precipice of World War 3, a war that will destroy the world as we know it? I think you're underselling, try to be more dramatic. Seems like all this faux-intellectual talk may just be a thinly veiled conspiracy theorist illuminati type who would normally be disregarded but is being engaged because she's keeping it under wraps.

 

Realistically, climate change is more likely to destroy the world as we know it than World War 3: Scrabble Edition and World War 4: Sticks vs Stones.

 

I put my money on The Battle of the Oxford Comma to bring about the collapse of society in general. Maybe that and people that tailgate. 

[Slartibartfast]

Already addressed - a semantic distinction, nothing more.

 

 

 

It isn't a semantics distinction. A primary source is a journal from the time period. 

 

You said a "primary source" and that was what was provided. What exactly do you mean by "primary source" if you do not mean the definition according to Princeton University?

 

You could have just noted it was a primary source and moved on rather than quibbling.

[kubiac]

https://twitter.com/marcmalkin/status/614437167511646208

 

This is my friend Marc and his husband Fabian on their wedding day. They are not degenerate, they are wonderful. I worked with Marc for five years and I never met a kinder, happier person in my life.

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153955905496521&set=a.500681761520.272939.672986520&type=1&theater

 

This is Michael and Kit on their wedding day. Michael is crying because after a decade-long relationship their legal marriage was prompted by Kit's cancer diagnosis. Kit didn't live to see their first anniversary but Kit and Michael and Kit's parents were together all the way in their cancer battle.

 

I will fight anybody who says that these couples or any other same-sex couples are degenerate, inadequate or undeserving of equal protection under the law.

 

Please know, you aren't damning hypothetical sinners in a distant corrupt capital. These are real people and they are identical to any equal set of heterosexuals you pick out of a lineup anywhere in this country.

 

Edited to replace copyrighted photos with links to images.

[Shahrazad]

I put my money on The Battle of the Oxford Comma to bring about the collapse of society in general. Maybe that and people that tailgate. 

 

That is the one scenario when hate and intolerance are valid. The oxford comma should not be optional. Omission of the oxford comma should not be tolerated and is most certainly going to bring about the collapse of society as we know it.

[*Lulu*]

Citations needed.

 

I demand you come over and clean my screen.

 

 

 

(Or make me laugh that hard again- it makes the dog wonder what is wrong with me!)

[Shahrazad]

This thread became seriously awesome. I want to marry this thread. But I'm already married. And it might be female.

[Hunter's Moon]

This thread became seriously awesome. I want to marry this thread. But I'm already married. And it might be female.

 

That, and my father's already spent my dowry on my husband. 

 

:(

[CAMom]

I put my money on The Battle of the Oxford Comma to bring about the collapse of society in general. Maybe that and people that tailgate.

:lol: I almost spit on my screen.

 

We have an Oxford comma war at our house. Currently it's 3-2 in favor. :)

[*Lulu*]

It isn't a semantics distinction. A primary source is a journal from the time period.

 

You said a "primary source" and that was what was provided. What exactly do you mean by "primary source" if you do not mean the definition according to Princeton University?

Sources she likes.

 

Duh.

[albeto.]

The rule of history is clear.  An increased tolerance for sexual deviancy, including homosexuality, accompanies social decline and collapse.  This is true in Babylon, Sodom and Gomorrah, ancient Rome, ancient Baghdad, the Ottoman Empire, and Germany prior to its defeat in World War 2.  It's also true today.  It is no accident degeneracy is spreading throughout the Western world on the eve of World War 3 (the destruction of the Western world).  By the way, to say degeneracy accompanies collapse doesn't mean it's the only thing to accompany collapse.  Car crashes correlate with dying.  So do gunshots.

 

Your correlation with social decline and collapse are also found in societies with population growth and increased trade (which means new ideas and social evolution). Maybe people should turn their pitchforks towards the quiverfull families and thank the gays for keeping our population in check for as long as they have. 

 

Look at stars; they end in different ways, depending on their mass/energy and configuration (eg. present in a binary system or not).  Some collapse.  Some explode.  Some just burn out.  The same is true for societies.

 

Every one. Even those who never tolerated homosexual behavior. 

[*Lulu*]

That is the one scenario when hate and intolerance are valid. The oxford comma should not be optional. Omission of the oxford comma should not be tolerated and is most certainly going to bring about the collapse of society as we know it.

Truth

[Shahrazad]

That, and my father's already spent my dowry on my husband. 

 

:(

 

My father already ate the goat that my husband gave him in exchange for me :( :( :( .