On the flag of treason flying at the South Carolina Capitol

[CaffeineDiary]

Making this a separate thread, since some people think it's unreasonable to discuss the idea that a white supremacist terrorist attack might have been influenced by his State's consistent historical glorification of a white supremacist emblem.

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/take-down-the-confederate-flag-now/396290/

 

Last night, Dylann Roof walked into a Charleston church, sat for an hour, and then killed nine people. Roof’s crime cannot be divorced from the ideology of white supremacy which long animated his state nor from its potent symbol—the Confederate flag. Visitors to Charleston have long been treated to South Carolina’s attempt to clean its history and depict its secession as something other than a war to guarantee the enslavement of the majority of its residents. This notion is belied by any serious interrogation of the Civil War and the primary documents of its instigators. Yet the Confederate battle flag—the flag of Dylann Roof—still flies on the Capitol grounds in Columbia.

 

 

The Confederate flag’s defenders often claim it represents “heritage not hate.†I agree—the heritage of White Supremacy was not so much birthed by hate as by the impulse toward plunder. Dylann Roof plundered nine different bodies last night, plundered nine different families of an original member, plundered nine different communities of a singular member. An entire people are poorer for his action. The flag that Roof embraced, which many South Carolinians embrace, does not stand in opposition to this act—it endorses it. That the Confederate flag is the symbol of of white supremacists is evidenced by the very words of those who birthed it.

[Joker]

There is something I've wondered about for a while and hope is not taken wrong. I grew up in the south and didn't know many people who actually had a Confederate flag. There were a few. Not all were white, some were black, and didn't view it the way expressed in the OP. It seemed like a weird southern pride thing. Obviously, this shooter has issues, but because of those I've known who have a flag I don't think they are all white supremacists.

[Guest]

No flag, image, slogan, or object is responsible for someone choosing to harm another. No item is culpable - it is the person using it or co-opting it.

 

That has to be clearly laid out. HE is responsible for murdering people, not a flag.

 

That all said, it seems there is so little to gain by flying the confederate flag. Everyone knows the state history, and trying to reclaim that as a symbol for something other than slavery and opposition to the Union hasn't worked. It's well passed time to drop the cause and change the flag, because it is needlessly inflammatory with very little benefit.

 

But that should have happened regardless of anything to do with this incident. The two are not related, except inasmuch as he decided to use that as one of his banners, along with many symbols and images of white supremacy from multiple countries and time periods. Conflating the two doesn't clarify issues, it just muddies things. Everyone agrees his was wrong. Not everyone agrees the flag needs to go. I don't see a benefit to combining those two in this discussion.

 

What I'd love to see is a ballot initiative to remove the confederate flag and replace the symbol with something else. Let the people vote and I think these days it is really likely to see passage.

[Guest]

There is something I've wondered about for a while and hope is not taken wrong. I grew up in the south and didn't know many people who actually had a Confederate flag. There were a few. Not all were white, some were black, and didn't view it the way expressed in the OP. It seemed like a weird southern pride thing. Obviously, this shooter has issues, but because of those I've known who have a flag I don't think they are all white supremacists.

That's exactly it. Just because some people associate it with white supremacy doesn't mean everyone does, and conflating to two does more harm than good. Removing the flag is a goal and I think it's a good one, but not because of anything relating to this man.

[MotherGoose]

The shooter was a sociopath who used white supremacy as his "reason." Everyone in SC is not a racist. Please don't imply that.

[CaffeineDiary]

I'm not implying that everyone in South Carolina is a racist. I am, however, stating (not implying) that anyone who supports flying the confederate flag is someone who supports flying a symbol of white supremacy and racism. Hope that makes my distinction clear.

[Guest]

I'm not implying that everyone in South Carolina is a racist. I am, however, stating (not implying) that anyone who supports flying the confederate flag is someone who supports flying a symbol of white supremacy and racism. Hope that makes my distinction clear.

I tend to think this, too. When I see a person flying the Confederate flag, I do wonder what their motive could possibly be, or how they can believe it is innocuous.

[HRAAB]

Then everyone will understand why removing this particular flag from public display is a good idea, and should happen without delay ?

 

No, they won't.

 

I live in the northwest, and I see pickups with Confederate flags.  Not a lot, but they are here.  I do think it is more of an anti federal government statement than a white supremacist statement.  It's something that has increased in the last 6 to 7 years.  Hmmm.....  However, if I was in another area of the state, it might definitely be a white supremacist statement.

 

I've only been through the south once in my life - a road trip 25 years ago.  I don't recall seeing many Confederate flags.  Maybe I wasn't focused on them.  Is it something that has increased there more recently, and is it common to see them flying at government buildings?

[Amy in NH]

No flag, image, slogan, or object is responsible for someone choosing to harm another. No item is culpable - it is the person using it or co-opting it.

 

That has to be clearly laid out. HE is responsible for murdering people, not a flag.

 

That all said, it seems there is so little to gain by flying the confederate flag. Everyone knows the state history, and trying to reclaim that as a symbol for something other than slavery and opposition to the Union hasn't worked. It's well passed time to drop the cause and change the flag, because it is needlessly inflammatory with very little benefit.

 

But that should have happened regardless of anything to do with this incident. The two are not related, except inasmuch as he decided to use that as one of his banners, along with many symbols and images of white supremacy from multiple countries and time periods. Conflating the two doesn't clarify issues, it just muddies things. Everyone agrees his was wrong. Not everyone agrees the flag needs to go. I don't see a benefit to combining those two in this discussion.

 

What I'd love to see is a ballot initiative to remove the confederate flag and replace the symbol with something else. Let the people vote and I think these days it is really likely to see passage.

 

But he was obviously affected by the culture which is represented by the symbol, and placing that symbol on government property to be saluted and respected is akin to the government endorsing the culture it represents.  The Supreme Court ruling today against forcing the state of Texas to allow a confederate flag on the state license plate said just that.

 

[MotherGoose]

I don't agree with flying the flag. There was a huge huge debate over removing it some years ago, and eventually it was left up, but more visible. I don't get it. Politicians don't make sense. It was perceived as some sort of a compromise though. Actually I originally thought it was to fly over a confederate monument in the grounds somewhere, but not front and center.

[MyThreeSons]

As a 17-year resident, but not native, of South Carolina, I feel led to say several things. I will try not to ramble; I have been heartsick all day over this.

 

• I totally do not get the concept of displaying the confederate flag in any manner of honor. 
• I see the confederate flag as not only racist, but anti-American. 
• I cannot take anything Lindsey Graham says seriously -- he does not represent me nor most people I know.
• I see many more acts of racial harmony than racial bigotry in this state. And most of the bigotry I see or hear is directed against (illegal) immigrants, not blacks. 

[poppy]

If he was a Muslim, he'd be a terrorist .

 

If he was black, he'd be a thug.

 

But he is white, so he is a crazed loner.

[MotherGoose]

If he was a Muslim, he'd be a terrorist .

 

If he was black, he'd be a thug.

 

But he is white, so he is a crazed loner.

History does illustrate that usually when white men do something like this, they ARE crazed loners. Most or all of the school shooting people or movie theater shooting people were crazed loners. Black men do not usually go after random groups of people like this. There is usually some connection to the victim. Often the Muslim terrorists have connection to larger terror organizations. I know it's not always true, but I think that in general, history agrees with me.

[goldberry]

I was raised in the south and have been around a fair share of confederate flag fliers.  I learned enough to know that whatever reason they may have for flying it, they are typically not people I want to be around.

 

NOT in favor of it.  Off to read about the supreme court ruling...

[poppy]

History does illustrate that usually when white men do something like this, they ARE crazed loners. Most or all of the school shooting people or movie theater shooting people were crazed loners. Black men do not usually go after random groups of people like this. There is usually some connection to the victim. Often the Muslim terrorists have connection to larger terror organizations. I know it's not always true, but I think that in general, history agrees with me.

 

Like the crazed loner who shot up the Sihk temple? 

Do you think a culture of xenophobia and racism is completely irrelevant to both those massacres?

[Reefgazer]

I think it would be best to permanently retire that flag, but that murderer is responsible for his own thoughts and actions, regardless of what is being done with that flag.  Racists morons will exist whether that flag is hanging around or not.  Don't give him an excuse.

[zoobie]

If he was a Muslim, he'd be a terrorist .

 

If he was black, he'd be a thug.

 

But he is white, so he is a crazed loner.

Where are the condescending lectures for the white community to get its act together and keep its youth from acting thusly? Ugh.

 

The confederate flag is currently, no matter what it may have been in the 1860s, a symbol of racism and bigotry. There is NO defense for flying it at a state facility. It's disgusting. Georgia still celebrates Confederate Memorial Day as a state holiday. Yee Freaking Haw. At least we finally got the stars and bars off our state flag, but it took an insane amount of effort and pretty much cost a governorship.

 

 

I think the confederate flag is relevant to the tragedy discussion. Are they going to fly that racist rag at half staff to honor the victims?

[zoobie]

No one is saying the confederate flag is the reason for this psychopath's actions. However, flying the flag prominently at the state capitol tells him and other racists that their thinking is accepted. Condoned. Legitimated. Welcomed.

[Mandylubug]

I have grown up in GA. That flag is everywhere. I agree the people that do display it typically are a rougher crowd and typically not my kind of folks. You do find the rare person that is really into history, dresses up and works the reenactment battles and go to the southern balls. I can see the infatuation of it for those. They typically don't display it on their vehicle and home but are more likely to talk ears off about history.

 

I personally think the flag deserves its place in a museum. It isn't relevent for our modern times.

[CaffeineDiary]

Sure - I have no doubt, for example, that there is probably a Nazi flag somewhere inside the Washington DC Holocaust Museum. That's a perfectly fine thing. But I would have a problem with it if that flag was _flying_.

[justasque]

History does illustrate that usually when white men do something like this, they ARE crazed loners. Most or all of the school shooting people or movie theater shooting people were crazed loners. Black men do not usually go after random groups of people like this. There is usually some connection to the victim. Often the Muslim terrorists have connection to larger terror organizations. I know it's not always true, but I think that in general, history agrees with me.

I think there is some truth to this.  However, we do not yet know if this shooter has ties to one or more terror organizations, such as the KKK or other white supremacy hate groups.  Under the circumstances, his actions seem to have more in common with the Civil Rights Movement era killings (arguably terrorism, IMHO) than a Columbine-style school shooting.  This man seems to have targeted his victims because of their race and/or religion.  Such crimes have the side effect of making others who fit the victims' profile feel targeted and vulnerable.  That's terrorism.

[MotherGoose]

Like the crazed loner who shot up the Sihk temple?

Do you think a culture of xenophobia and racism is completely irrelevant to both those massacres?

I never said it was irrelevant. People are influenced by their surroundings and culture.

[MotherGoose]

I think there is some truth to this. However, we do not yet know if this shooter has ties to one or more terror organizations, such as the KKK or other white supremacy hate groups. Under the circumstances, his actions seem to have more in common with the Civil Rights Movement era killings (arguably terrorism, IMHO) than a Columbine-style school shooting. This man seems to have targeted his victims because of their race and/or religion. Such crimes have the side effect of making others who fit the victims' profile feel targeted and vulnerable. That's terrorism.

I agree. Any of these shooters are promoting terror.

[elegantlion]

Where we used to live I often saw confederate flag stickers on car that also displayed those dreaded truck nuts. I thought that was a fitting descriptor. Perhaps someone should hang some of those under the flag in question. 

[Farrar]

I never said it was irrelevant. People are influenced by their surroundings and culture.

 

Um, you said they were crazed loners. Not that they were influenced by their surroundings.

 

These people do have ties to groups. They have online groups, publications, groups that meet up and are classified as hate groups by the SPLC, groups that are constantly monitored as threats by the FBI and local police... The symbols that they embrace as the signs of their cause - against minorities and against the government - are placed on clothes and bumper stickers and even used by state governments.

 

Tell me again how Tim McVeigh or Wade Michael Page or Dylan Storm Roof are somehow different from Muslim terrorists because they're crazed loners and Muslims are part of larger organizations.

[LaxMom]

It seems to me that there might be something in the last 6-7 years that would tie white supremacy and anti federal government sentiments together.

 

And it wouldn't be a non-racist connection.

I was thinking the same thing. Anti-government and white supremacy seem like close companions in my experience.

 

Where we used to live I often saw confederate flag stickers on car that also displayed those dreaded truck nuts. I thought that was a fitting descriptor. Perhaps someone should hang some of those under the flag in question.

Truck nuts. Lol. I almost drove into the truck wearing them the first time I saw them because I could NOT figure out what unfortunate looking thing that I took to be a wiring/tow hitch dongle was meant to be.

 

All the other times, they've just been vulgar.

[Little Nyssa]

Trying to articulate this clearly... I feel that I as a Northerner don't really have any right to tell Southerners whether to fly the Confederate flag or not. It's their decision.

[Stacia]

I personally think the flag deserves its place in a museum. It isn't relevent for our modern times.

 

I agree.

 

[SparrowsNest]

If he was a Muslim, he'd be a terrorist .

 

If he was black, he'd be a thug.

 

But he is white, so he is a crazed loner.

 

I have no problem calling him a terrorist, actually I think that fits pretty well. 

[LaxMom]

I have no problem calling him a terrorist, actually I think that fits pretty well.

I feel like "terrorist" unduly elevates him and his act of violence. It implies he has a larger point and support (of others) for his actions.

 

Murderer works quite well for me.

[justasque]

I feel like "terrorist" unduly elevates him and his act of violence. It implies he has a larger point and support (of others) for his actions.

 

Murderer works quite well for me.

Perhaps we can go with "murdering terrorist".  Or "terrorizing murderer".  

[Stacia]

I like this opinion piece from the LA Times: What the Charleston killings reveal about our national soul 

 

It nails the core issues, I think.

[SparrowsNest]

I feel like "terrorist" unduly elevates him and his act of violence. It implies he has a larger point and support (of others) for his actions.

 

Murderer works quite well for me.

 

But he does have a larger point, doesn't he?  Isn't he a white supremacist?  Aren't there groups supportive of such ideologies?

 

I've often heard Timothy McVeigh referred to as a domestic terrorist as well.  I don't see it as elevating anyone, rather just describing political/ideological acts of violence meant to intimidate others. 

[poppy]

Trying to articulate this clearly... I feel that I as a Northerner don't really have any right to tell Southerners whether to fly the Confederate flag or not. It's their decision.

 

The white Southerns or the black ones?

[LaxMom]

Terrorists have a cause. McVeigh had a message. He was trying to cause change by force and fear.

 

This guy decided to kill some people. What message is being conveyed? What change did he expect (in his crazy ass little brain)? Is there any coercion by fear implied in a one off mass murder? This was a bigot with a gun.

 

(In case it's not obvious, I am not in favor of terrorism. But not every horrific act falls under that header.)

[Stacia]

The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), which tracks domestic terrorist & hate & extremist groups, has posted a statement about the Charleston killings.

[Cammie]

If he was a Muslim, he'd be a terrorist .

 

If he was black, he'd be a thug.

 

But he is white, so he is a crazed loner.

 

I MILLION like this.

[mommaduck]

The white Southerns or the black ones?

 

Both. Believe it or not, there have been black Southerners that have defended the flying of the Battle Flag. I believe it has much to do with their own ancestry and acknowledging that blacks and whites both served on both sides of that awful war. Yes, both whites and blacks have a say. Funny thing is, I've seen more CBF's when I was living farther North than I have here in SC. I have learned the SC is very "us vs them" when it comes to anyone that is from elsewhere in the country, the federal government, or has different ideals and seek change (even if you are from here, they'll tell you that if you don't like, then why don't you leave. My response is that this is where many of us are from and we'd like to see positive changes in our home state...usually, that shuts them up). 

[Cammie]

If the Muslim population needs to take care of the radicalization that is happening within that community;

 

And the Black population needs to take care of the violence within that community;

 

Then the White population needs to own up and take action for the racist/violent/mass-murdering tendencies within that community.

 

Almost all mass killings in the US in recent memory have been done by WHITE men with TOO MANY guns.  They have killed little children, school children, high school children, people at movie theatres and people in church.

 

When are the White people going to say enough is enough?

 

 

[Farrar]

If the Muslim population needs to take care of the radicalization that is happening within that community;

 

And the Black population needs to take care of the violence within that community;

 

Then the White population needs to own up and take action for the racist/violent/mass-murdering tendencies within that community.

 

Almost all mass killings in the US in recent memory have been done by WHITE men with TOO MANY guns.  They have killed little children, school children, high school children, people at movie theatres and people in church.

 

When are the White people going to say enough is enough?

 

Seriously. My fellow white people in this thread saying that nothing about white society is culpable is pretty sad.

 

The double standards are killing me.

 

Well, not me, obviously. They're killing African-Americans.

[Cammie]

White privilege is...shooting up a church and being taken alive.

 

White privilege is....not being held accountable when other white people commit mass murder in your country.

[Cammie]

Let's play a mental game.

 

Let's imagine that a minority community in the US was obsessed with gun ownership.  To the point that many in the community owned multiple guns, there are political parties that cater to the obsession, there are groups that meet and take guns into public spaces just to show that they can.

 

Then let's imagine for a moment that the same minority community has had a number of individuals who have gone into schools and murdered children and teachers.  The same minority community has had members gun down high school students and college students.  The same minority community has had members shoot up public gatherings around the country.

 

Now, let's imagine what might be the outcome of such a situation?

 

 

[livetoread]

Let's play a mental game.

 

Let's imagine that a minority community in the US was obsessed with gun ownership. To the point that many in the community owned multiple guns, there are political parties that cater to the obsession, there are groups that meet and take guns into public spaces just to show that they can.

 

Then let's imagine for a moment that the same minority community has had a number of individuals who have gone into schools and murdered children and teachers. The same minority community has had members gun down high school students and college students. The same minority community has had members shoot up public gatherings around the country.

 

Now, let's imagine what might be the outcome of such a situation?

I remember an eye-opening thing an AA professor of mine said about the white supremacist/survivalist groups training in their compounds in Idaho or wherever. She just mused about what the reaction would be if it was black people crawling around the woods armed to the teeth ready to take on the gov't. Yeah.

[MyThreeSons]

The local news is reporting that the Confederate flag flying at the state capital cannot be removed without a vote by the state legislature. What are they waiting for? A highly respected member of that body was among those killed. 

 

By the way, not only is the Confederate flag still flying tonight, it is at full height while the U.S. and state flags have been ordered to fly at half staff for nine days. Again, it required an act of the state legislature to even lower it. 

 

Sad. Sad. Sad. 

[Amy in NH]

The local news is reporting that the Confederate flag flying at the state capital cannot be removed without a vote by the state legislature. What are they waiting for? A highly respected member of that body was among those killed. 

 

By the way, not only is the Confederate flag still flying tonight, it is at full height while the U.S. and state flags have been ordered to fly at half staff for nine days. Again, it required an act of the state legislature to even lower it. 

 

Sad. Sad. Sad. 

 

speaks volumes

[CaffeineDiary]

Jon Stewart was extremely eloquent about this tonight.

 

http://bit.ly/1N885tP

[albeto.]

Seriously. My fellow white people in this thread saying that nothing about white society is culpable is pretty sad.

 

The double standards are killing me.

 

Well, not me, obviously. They're killing African-Americans.

 

A quote I keep coming across (from facebook I understand):

 

Black people are literally saying "Stop killing us!"

And there are people saying, "But..."

[Tsuga]

I was pretty shocked to read about this last night.

 

I don't understand why it wouldn't be part of the main conversation.

 

I hope the flag will now be removed.

 

It won't be removed because they know damn well what it means, what slavery was, and what black lives mean in that state.

 

It's not like they didn't know.

 

They know and they mean it. They mean it and they've said it. They aren't sorry because they aren't sorry those people died, and they aren't sorry because those people were black.

 

It is really that simple.

 

If it were otherwise, they'd act in a different way. It's like when people say they'd like to do more for charity but they can't. You know what? Those are lying liars who lie like sick dogs. They could. They're just selfish. Follow the money. Follow the dead black people. It's not a secret. It's not a mystery.

 

They truly don't care if black people die and to some extent, many (though not most) people actually want more black people dead.

 

If they didn't want black people dead they'd never have flown that flag. They aren't stupid and they aren't powerless. They have made their choice.

[albeto.]

Fox News has discovered this isn't about race at all.

 

It's about...

 

 

wait for it....

 

 

 

 

Christian Persecution.

 

"But, I have to tell you that I am deeply concerned this gunman chose to go into a church, because there does seem to be a rising hostility against Christians across this country because of our biblical views. And, I just think it's something we have to be aware of and not create an atmosphere where people take out their violent intentions against Christians."

 

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/18/1394261/-Fox-News-Charleston-shooting-is-an-attack-on-faith-not-race-calls-for-pastors-to-arm-themselves

 

 

Steve Doocy: Uhhh, it was released earlier—and extraordinarily they called it a hate crime—uhhh, and some look at it, because it was a white guy, apparently, and a black church, uhh, but you made a great point just a moment ago about the hostility towards Christians, so—and it was a church! So, maybe that's what their talking about. They haven't explained it to us.

 

E.W. Jackson: Well, yeah, I don't know whether to—most people jump to conclusions about race. I long for the day when we stop doing that in our country (Kilmeade jumps in to agree). But, we don't know why he went into a church, but he didn't choose a bar. He didn't choose a basketball court. He chose a church. And we need to be looking at that very closely.

 

 

[Tsuga]

albeto. I don't even know how you can stand to read one Fox News quote. I couldn't even read your post quoting Fox News. I'd never sleep.