"Why I Defaulted on My Student Loans" (article) -- cross-post

[amsunshine]

I totally agree with all of this...

 

...Which is why the article ticked me off. He's a terrible, terrible spokesperson for these points. The system is messed up. But he was a middle class white guy who milked it to attend the ivy league three times and now wants us to feel sorry for him. It's like trying to garner sympathy for the ills of the health care system with a guy who stubbed his toe and wants us to see what an ordeal he's been through. Which is not to say that stubbed toe guy deserves our ire - the system is still the place I want it directed. But come on, he's trying to make a side show of himself and it's distracting from the real problem. Maybe even turning people against the real problem.

 

Exactly this!!!  Thank you for saying what I've been trying to say but haven't been able to very eloquently.

[LucyStoner]

They do have payment plans that go by income. I don't see why he could not have qualified for that. I wonder how he even managed to default on them. They don't let you out of that unless you die.

As a writer, he is most certainly self employed. He gets paid piece meal here and there. Most people in his shoes would lose 15% of their pay via garnishment (and they follow you closely) but they can't effectively order him to garnish his own pay. They can take him to court but if he doesn't pay, there are only so many things the court can do to make him pay. Dodge the the IRS or fail to pay court fees on criminal charges or rack up big arrears on child support and they can take your butt to jail at some point but not so for most other forms of debt (thankfully).

 

He's married too so I bet they just keep assets in her name and file separately to protect any tax refund she has coming.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't support his reasoning and bet a lot of people making less than him have paid back their loans little by little. But he's totally right that there's not that much they can do to him if he is self employed and able to access any credit he needs via his wife. I hope this scofflaw doesn't inspire legal changes that would hurt others who, for legit reasons, haven't been able to pay their loans.

[Frances]

Having to take out loans, which other people are making a profit from, just to get a basic education, could be considered a reasonable thing to protest through non-payment.

 

At least make the loans no-interest, payable as income reaches the median wage.

But he wasn't even using it directly for his education. His tuition was all covered, he was only borrowing for living expenses. Granted, New York is a very expensive place to live, but borrowing for living expenses for three degrees for someone who aims to be a writer just doesn't seem smart or necessary. Did he work and live frugally? Or was he planning to default all along and borrowing just to support a certain lifestyle?

[Cammie]

My parents had nothing saved for college.  But I was encouraged to attend the best schools I could attend.  I did a BA, MA, and JD.  I had great scholarships in all three programs.

 

I also had 100,000 in educational debt at the end of it.

 

I do not regret the education I recevied.  I was able to make my loan into a 30 year loan at about 3%.  I pay $600 per month on the debt.

 

For me not paying is not an option.  It will be with me for a long time.  However, I would like my kids to be free to make different choices and therefore we have started talking about college costs much, much earlier so the kids can make more informed decisions than I did.

[Murphy101]

Nm. Too identifying and not my tale to tell. :)

[SKL]

If the guy is 58, maybe he went bankrupt before the made the rule that you discharge your student loans in bankruptcy.  In that case, he may indeed have gotten a free ride.  As mentioned by another poster, and judging from the entitled way he talks, he may have planned it that way all along - or at least viewed it as a possibility should his youthful dreams not pan out as expected.

 

It is bad enough that he's proud of himself for defaulting, but what's worse is his comment that young people today should consider doing the same thing.

 

I can't imagine why a guy in his circumstances would have even looked at a fancy expensive school.  My beginnings were similar, but I didn't even send my (high) ACT scores to any school other than the closest state university.  I did go to a private grad school, but only because I got a scholarship that made the projected cost equal to what the state school would cost.  It never crossed my mind that the state school might not be "good enough for me."  :P  Based on how I felt about college at that age, I have a hard time believing he was really from humble beginnings.  Maybe his idea of "humble" is a lot different from mine.

[Word Nerd]

If the guy is 58, maybe he went bankrupt before the made the rule that you discharge your student loans in bankruptcy. In that case, he may indeed have gotten a free ride.

 

 

He said he still has the debts and they're still trying to collect on the loans, so that's not the case.

[Jane in NC]

But he wasn't even using it directly for his education. His tuition was all covered, he was only borrowing for living expenses. Granted, New York is a very expensive place to live, but borrowing for living expenses for three degrees for someone who aims to be a writer just doesn't seem smart or necessary. Did he work and live frugally? Or was he planning to default all along and borrowing just to support a certain lifestyle?

 

Exactly.

 

I can't imagine why a guy in his circumstances would have even looked at a fancy expensive school.  My beginnings were similar, but I didn't even send my (high) ACT scores to any school other than the closest state university.  I did go to a private grad school, but only because I got a scholarship that made the projected cost equal to what the state school would cost. 

 

Because many state university systems are underfunded by their respective legislatures, private colleges with merit aid may actually be the less expensive choice.  That is why people from humble roots should be encouraged to consider what you call "fancy" schools. Parents on the college board report frequently that their state school is the more expensive choice after financial and merit aid is considered.  Your mileage may vary, of course.

 

I agree with posters who say that this article detracts from the real issue our college kids face.  College is expensive.  Gone are the days when a high school grad could work a summer job and pay for tuition, room and board.  College costs take planning and future job paths require creative thinking since none of us knows what the future may hold.

 

The bottom line to me though is that this guy did not acquire educational debt as much as lifestyle debt, something that plagues many Americans who sign on the dotted line for easily available credit.  I do not dismiss educational debt as a bad thing--clearly the average student loan debt of $30K can elevate a young adult into a higher income bracket.  But everyone needs to enter the situation with eyes wide open.

 

Jane (who quickly paid off her nominal student loan debt and was grateful that student loans were available)

[Laura Corin]

that's just an excuse on why they can't start a business.  we had lots of debt (lots) when dh started his business.  it's doing very well - much better than if he'd just worked at "some job" for someone else.

 

You just reduce the pool of entrepreneurs if a lot of people start off with large debt.  Yes, many people will start their own businesses despite already having debt, but many more will not.

 

I don't think that my sister would have started her business if she had already been servicing large debt.  But here she is with a thriving Pilates business employing several other teachers and teaching in locations all over London.

[MSNative]

I read an article by Glenn Harlan Reynolds in which he recommended making student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy after a certain number of years but leaving the schools on the hook for a percentage of the discharged debt. I like that idea though I confess I haven't thought through unintended consequences it might have. But in general, I like the idea of colleges having incentive to make sure they are providing serious value for students' educational dollars rather than just raising tuition and raking more cash from student loans.

 

Random aside: Check out this interesting stat on one cause of dramatic tuition increase. There are obviously myriad reasons. This stat was justone I hadn't seen before. I knew there were a lot of administrators. I didn't realize just how many. I can see an increase in the number of administrators being necessary because of IT but that doesn't account for the huge increase.

 

"Between 1975 and 2005, total spending by American higher educational institutions, stated in constant dollars, tripled, to more than $325 billion per year. Over the same period, the faculty-to-student ratio has remained fairly constant…. One thing that has changed, dramatically, is the administrator-per-student ratio. In 1975, colleges employed one administrator for every eighty-four students and one professional staffer—admissions officers, information technology specialists, and the like—for every fifty students. By 2005, the administrator-to-student ratio had dropped to one administrator for every sixty-eight students while the ratio of professional staffers had dropped to one for every twenty-one students."

 

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/college_guide/blog/the_cost_of_college_administra.php

[Greta]

OK, I'll bite, but my comments are general, not specific to this person.

 

1. What is the good of a government that can't provide basic services like education ? And no, I don't buy that most people can make it without a tertiary education, not any more. It is immoral, imo, to profiteer on the backs of students. At some point, when do we all stop pointing the finger at individuals who don't play, and point it at the real problem, the system as is currently designed ?

 

2. Actually, life as a creative is really tough. Yeah, yeah, I know no-one wants to hear it. 90% of creatives do not make money from their primary art, and make a living from associated jobs, which keep them from making their primary art. It's soul destroying, and it's not merely a case of 'sucks to be you, if you were any good the market would support you'.

 

3. So what kind of world do we want ? One where education is a money spinner, that exacerbates class difference ? One where ''art' is just entertainment, blockbusters only please ? Or the only artists we have are the ones who can pay off debt ?

 

It's all about keeping elite choices for the elites. Ugh. Ugh. Ugh.

 

I don't expect anyone to agree with me, and I don't plan on entering into an argument about it.

 

PS It's not a sign of moral character that you paid down your debt faster than the next person either...

No argument here. I don't disagree with any of this.

 

As the mother of a teen who desperately wants to make a career of her art, well the term "starving artist" is more than just an abstraction to me, I really worry about her future security.

 

As a "yellow dog Democrat" I also believe in the concept of the government making people's lives better. So I have NO objection, on principle, to the idea of more funding for post-secondary education. But - and this is a huge but - before I would advocate for more, there is a question I need answered.

 

College costs have been rising at a rate that's much faster than infalation. Several times that of inflation, right? So what I want to know is: where is that money going?? It sure as all heck isn't going to the faculty. When I attended college I was taught almost exclusively by tenured professors. Attending now, you're going to be taught by adjuncts who aren't even being paid a living wage. This absolutely infuriates me! At the same time that the cost of college is skyrocketing, the viability of teaching as a profession is plummeting. What the heck??? This absolutely reeks of corruption. Someone is getting rich off of others' poverty. So before I would advocate throwing more public money into a corrupt and broken system, I would want to fix the system. A pipe dream, I realize, but that's what I want. I want to find the leak and fix it first.

[gardenmom5]

You just reduce the pool of entrepreneurs if a lot of people start off with large debt.  Yes, many people will start their own businesses despite already having debt, but many more will not.

 

I don't think that my sister would have started her business if she had already been servicing large debt.  But here she is with a thriving Pilates business employing several other teachers and teaching in locations all over London.

 

 

we had a lot of debt when dh started his business - I've btdt.

[Farrar]

we had a lot of debt when dh started his business - I've btdt.

And a few people will always be willing to take that risk with lots of debt. I mean, good for you and I'm glad that worked for you. But if you lessen the debt load from education then more people will be willing, which is potentially good for society. We need big risk takers in business and moderate ones too.

[solascriptura]

Dude, get a job. That's all I can say.

[MotherGoose]

I have a Master's in Social Work. I got it from my in-state university. I had a small loan that was forgiven after I worked with certain populations for a number of years. My parents helped me some. When I was looking at schools, I remember seeing that Harvard offered an MSW program. I thought then, and think now, that it was/is financially idotic to pay Harvard tuition for a job that would still pay a pittance to start, and ever, really. It's just unwise to get out huge loans, period, but certainly unless you are going into a field that will enable you to pay them back. My sister has considerable loan debt from medical school, but she has a great job. I could have probably racked up nearly as much debt for a MSW as she did for a MD if I'd gone to Harvard, but I wouldn't have been able to pay them off. Only way an expensive education makes sense is if you are smart enough to get someone else to pay for it (scholarship). Or your parents are wealthy.

[lailasmum]

As the mother of a teen who desperately wants to make a career of her art, well the term "starving artist" is more than just an abstraction to me, I really worry about her future security.

 

 

 

I think what is never really discussed when it comes to art and creative careers and mostly left out of higher level art courses is that to make a decent living from any creative field talent is only one part of success, you also need to be a great business person. That doesn't generally come out of nowhere which is why I think there are so many starving artists . I did a creative degree and our business training was superficial at best and didn't extend much beyond designing a business card. There are ways to learn that side of it more easily now with companies like Creative Live teaching marketing and other skills. It makes sense to me that rather than telling our kids that they can't have professional careers as creatives I think we should be telling them to go ahead and hone their talents but do it alongside spending as much time learning business skills (even if they think it's boring and not what a creative person does).

[Greta]

I think what is never really discussed when it comes to art and creative careers and mostly left out of higher level art courses is that to make a decent living from any creative field talent is only one part of success, you also need to be a great business person. That doesn't generally come out of nowhere which is why I think there are so many starving artists . I did a creative degree and our business training was superficial at best and didn't extend much beyond designing a business card. There are ways to learn that side of it more easily now with companies like Creative Live teaching marketing and other skills. It makes sense to me that rather than telling our kids that they can't have professional careers as creatives I think we should be telling them to go ahead and hone their talents but do it alongside spending as much time learning business skills (even if they think it's boring and not what a creative person does).

Yes, some very good points. I have discussed with my daughter the possibility that she should pursue degrees in both art and business. I don't know if that's the best answer, but it is something to consider.

[SparklyUnicorn]

This guy might not be the poster child for what is wrong with the cost of our higher education system, but again I am not unsympathetic to this line of reasoning.  I think it is absolutely ridiculous how expensive higher education is.  The debt is like a ball and chain.  Big business can borrow money for next to nothing and they make college students and graduates pay ridiculous interest rates. 

 

And there are often reasons for not choosing a better or more desired major that I bet a lot of people cannot fathom.  I chose what I chose not because I thought it was the best major or even because it was the major I really wanted.  I chose it because it was doable for a number of reasons.  It did not require me to have transportation to several locations.  I did not have access to transportation and could not afford to buy a car.  It was also doable for someone who had to work full time just to barely manage to go to that school at all.  I couldn't work 40+ hours at a back breaking job and major in something that required hours and hours of studying.  I always think if I could go back and redo things I'd do it differently, but honestly I don't know how I could have really done things differently.  I saw it as a means to an end and it was for me, but I was capable of so much more.  Nobody would throw me a damn bone though. 

[Laura Corin]

I think what is never really discussed when it comes to art and creative careers and mostly left out of higher level art courses is that to make a decent living from any creative field talent is only one part of success, you also need to be a great business person. That doesn't generally come out of nowhere which is why I think there are so many starving artists . I did a creative degree and our business training was superficial at best and didn't extend much beyond designing a business card. There are ways to learn that side of it more easily now with companies like Creative Live teaching marketing and other skills. It makes sense to me that rather than telling our kids that they can't have professional careers as creatives I think we should be telling them to go ahead and hone their talents but do it alongside spending as much time learning business skills (even if they think it's boring and not what a creative person does).

 

There have to be honest talks about the range of skills that might be needed for making money within the art, too.  

 

A good friend of mine is now an often-employed actor, but he has managed it by becoming really, really valuable to small theatre companies: he is highly skilled in set design and build, costume making, musical arrangement and singing (counter-tenor).  He has added to that talking book work, which he began as a volunteer reader for blind people.  

 

There were times when he was putting many of those skills to work in other ways of making a living: singing/playing at weddings; working as a joiner creating cabinetry for people at home....

 

 

[lailasmum]

There have to be honest talks about the range of skills that might be needed for making money within the art, too.  

 

A good friend of mine is now an often-employed actor, but he has managed it by becoming really, really valuable to small theatre companies: he is highly skilled in set design and build, costume making, musical arrangement and singing (counter-tenor).  He has added to that talking book work, which he began as a volunteer reader for blind people.  

 

There were times when he was putting many of those skills to work in other ways of making a living: singing/playing at weddings; working as a joiner creating cabinetry for people at home....

Yeah having diverse skills within your area really helps, I know when I was working in stage management we all used to hate the jobs that wanted you to drive the van, build the set, play the piano, stage manage, do costume and a million and one other things for relatively low pay, but at least if you could do that stuff you were always employed by companies like your friend is employed by and could always then take other jobs that align when things are quiet. 

[Murphy101]

Exactly.

 

 

Because many state university systems are underfunded by their respective legislatures, private colleges with merit aid may actually be the less expensive choice. That is why people from humble roots should be encouraged to consider what you call "fancy" schools. Parents on the college board report frequently that their state school is the more expensive choice after financial and merit aid is considered. Your mileage may vary, of course.

 

I agree with posters who say that this article detracts from the real issue our college kids face. College is expensive. Gone are the days when a high school grad could work a summer job and pay for tuition, room and board. College costs take planning and future job paths require creative thinking since none of us knows what the future may hold.

 

Also, it's not like every state university has every degree. Some go to a private school bc it offer specific opportunities in their field that other schools do not. Of course, this might be why they choose a state school as well. But it is a valid consideration either way bc the better the program and opportunities it provides, the more likely they will get better mileage from their degree.

 

Not all degrees are equal in market value or in experience value. It's not PC to say it that bluntly, but it is true.

 

(This from a woman who is adament on getting undergrad degrees with little to no debt if at all possible, but yet recognizes that sometimes you do get what you pay for too.)

[goldberry]

 

College costs have been rising at a rate that's much faster than infalation. Several times that of inflation, right? So what I want to know is: where is that money going?? It sure as all heck isn't going to the faculty. When I attended college I was taught almost exclusively by tenured professors. Attending now, you're going to be taught by adjuncts who aren't even being paid a living wage. This absolutely infuriates me! At the same time that the cost of college is skyrocketing, the viability of teaching as a profession is plummeting. What the heck??? This absolutely reeks of corruption. Someone is getting rich off of others' poverty. So before I would advocate throwing more public money into a corrupt and broken system, I would want to fix the system. A pipe dream, I realize, but that's what I want. I want to find the leak and fix it first.

 

 

YES!  This is so similar to the healthcare problems.  I say this as someone who would love universal healthcare, but sees why it would bankrupt the country without some kind of cost accountability and change in the system.

 

College costs start going crazy high, so we just make it easier for students to take out loans to cover the crazy high costs.  What incentive do the colleges have to adjust their pricing?    I would love to see our government actually value education in a real and tangible way, but right now, all that would result is pouring more money into an out of control system.  

 

Maybe it will reach a crisis when students start realizing it's just not worth it to take on that much debt.

[Murphy101]

Good question, and yes, it sure isn't faculty making a mint. I don't know but yes, someone is making a fortune of the backs of students and staff. I agree, fix before funding, but as neither is going to happen, it's all pie in the sky dreaming.

 

I note a suggestion from some politician in my news feed today that students could cover their costs by allowing others to buy shares in their future success, so I'm pretty sure we're not heading for a whole stack of government funding to cover the Master's degrees of impoverished writers.

 

Sorry to be a downer about the art stuff. I was wildly optimistic for a long time, and to be fair, it is entirely possible to make a living from art and teaching - it's just difficult to do it with children, and if you are an artist-pair. My best advice to your dd is to go for it, delay child bearing and only have one or two, and marry someone who isn't an artist :) And add on a teaching qualification to her art degree...

Reminds me of the old joke.

 

What do you call a drummer (replace with any art) without a girlfriend?

Homeless.

[Jenny in Florida]

I can't believe I'm wading in here, especially given some of the folks who are already busy tsk-tsking. I'm sure I'll get beaten up again. However . . .

 

I still have student loans hanging over my head 30 years after my own college graduation.

 

I was stupid about the money I borrowed, no doubt. When the pricey private college told me they were putting together a financial package that meant no costs out of pocket and put in front of my a promissory note to sign, I signed. This was in the days before students had mandatory pre-loan counseling. No one explained the consequences to me, and I had parents who were also stupid about money and, therefore, no good habits or training. I also had personal circumstances during and after college that made my financial situation untenable. I did get a day job. In fact, I held full-time jobs for more than a decade. And I tried for while to keep up with the payments, but it was a losing battle. This was also in the days before income-based repayment plans. So, when I was unable to keep up with the payments, things went south very quickly. 

 

For the record, I spent exactly one year at that private college, then transferred to a state university to finish my degree. I lived with my parents and used a portion of the grants, scholarships and loan proceeds to help pay their rent. I also had a work study job and worked part time during the summers in addition to taking summer classes. It wasn't like I was living it up in the Ivy League.

 

A number of years ago, when I was first married and we had two earners making decent money, I tried to negotiate a way to get back on track, but was told that, because I was in default, my only option was to pay everything that was in arrears before they would discuss setting up a payment plan for the remaining amount. That was a laughable prospect. (We were talking 10s of thousands of dollars.) So, I hung up the phone and forgot about it.

 

I've tried again over the years, with no more success.

 

At this point, the names of the banks through which I originally borrowed the money are lost in the mists of time. I've moved across the country and lost records to various floods and moves and other disasters. I know that at least one of the banks through which I borrowed doesn't even exist any longer. 

 

The federal website does have records of my government-backed loans, but those are a drop in the bucket.

 

Meanwhile, because I am in default, I can't get my transcripts from the university from which I graduated, which means there are all kinds of employment opportunities that are not available to me, which means I make less than I might if I could actually get the kind of job that requires me to produce those records. 

 

Honestly, I have lost hope that I will manage to pay off that debt before I die.

 

I'm glad you all are so diligent and responsible and, apparently, were all those good things even in your 20s. Seriously, good for you. I freely admit that I wasn't prepared to handle the financial mess that I took on in order to go to college like a good girl.

 

But don't worry: I'm living with the consequences of my failure every day of my life. So, you all can take comfort in knowing I'm getting what I deserve.

[Jenny in Florida]

If the guy is 58, maybe he went bankrupt before the made the rule that you discharge your student loans in bankruptcy.  

 

My loans date from the 1980s, and they have never been eligible for discharge through bankruptcy.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh damn.  I don't feel like you "deserve" that.  It kinda went down that way with me too.  I was considered an independent student right off the bat so my borrowing limits were pretty high.  I went to a state school so it could have been worse, but I also lived in a high cost of living state so even a state school wasn't cheap.  I had no real sense for the amount of time it would take me to pay it back.  I'm still paying and paying and there seems to be no end in site.  I hate it.  And it's quite a bit per month.  In fact my car payment is lower.  Probably the only thing that saved my @$$ was declaring bankruptcy after graduating.  I was that much in dept.  That didn't make the school loans go away, but the rest of the money did including several large dental bills I just could not afford to pay back at that point in time.  And at that time they gave credit to students if you just signed on the dotted line.  They even did stuff like offer months where you didn't have to make any payments. 

 

 

I can't believe I'm wading in here, especially given some of the folks who are already busy tsk-tsking. I'm sure I'll get beaten up again. However . . .

 

I still have student loans hanging over my head 30 years after my own college graduation.

 

I was stupid about the money I borrowed, no doubt. When the pricey private college told me they were putting together a financial package that meant no costs out of pocket and put in front of my a promissory note to sign, I signed. This was in the days before students had mandatory pre-loan counseling. No one explained the consequences to me, and I had parents who were also stupid about money and, therefore, no good habits or training. I also had personal circumstances during and after college that made my financial situation untenable. I did get a day job. In fact, I held full-time jobs for more than a decade. And I tried for while to keep up with the payments, but it was a losing battle. This was also in the days before income-based repayment plans. So, when I was unable to keep up with the payments, things went south very quickly. 

 

A number of years ago, when I was first married and we had two earners making decent money, I tried to negotiate a way to get back on track, but was told that, because I was in default, my only option was to pay everything that was in arrears before they would discuss setting up a payment plan for the remaining amount. That was a laughable prospect. (We were talking 10s of thousands of dollars.) So, I hung up the phone and forgot about it.

 

I've tried again over the years, with no more success.

 

At this point, the names of the banks through which I originally borrowed the money are lost in the mists of time. I've moved across the country and lost records to various floods and moves and other disasters. I know that at least one of the banks through which I borrowed doesn't even exist any longer. 

 

The federal website does have records of my government-backed loans, but those are a drop in the bucket.

 

Meanwhile, because I am in default, I can't get my transcripts from the university from which I graduated, which means there are all kinds of employment opportunities that are not available to me, which means I make less than I might if I could actually get the kind of job that requires me to produce those records. 

 

Honestly, I have lost hope that I will manage to pay off that debt before I die.

 

I'm glad you all are so diligent and responsible and, apparently, were all those good things even in your 20s. Seriously, good for you. I freely admit that I wasn't prepared to handle the financial mess that I took on in order to go to college like a good girl.

 

But don't worry: I'm living with the consequences of my failure every day of my life. So, you all can take comfort in knowing I'm getting what I deserve.

 

[Jenny in Florida]

Oh damn.  I don't feel like you "deserve" that.  It kinda went down that way with me too.  I was considered an independent student right off the bat so my borrowing limits were pretty high.  I went to a state school so it could have been worse, but I also lived in a high cost of living state so even a state school wasn't cheap.  I had no real sense for the amount of time it would take me to pay it back.  I'm still paying and paying and there seems to be no end in site.  I hate it.  And it's quite a bit per month.  In fact my car payment is lower.  Probably the only thing that saved my @$$ was declaring bankruptcy after graduating.  I was that much in dept.  That didn't make the school loans go away, but the rest of the money did including several large dental bills I just could not afford to pay back at that point in time.  And at that time they gave credit to students if you just signed on the dotted line.  They even did stuff like offer months where you didn't have to make any payments. 

 

I tried to declare bankruptcy at one point, but was not eligible to do so. (Complicated personal situation.) 

[.Michelle.]

 

I note a suggestion from some politician in my news feed today that students could cover their costs by allowing others to buy shares in their future success, so I'm pretty sure we're not heading for a whole stack of government funding to cover the Master's degrees of impoverished writers.

 

 

 

Something about that makes me shudder.  It reminds me of indentured servitude, kind of.  When we're getting to the point that people are auctioning off their future in order to cover current costs... it's really time to reassess.

[Liz CA]

I am working full time and paying for my next degree as I go. It is not an Ivy League school as one might guess; it is, however, a university recommended among the 10 best, accredited online universities for my degree program. Maybe I am just lucky. :)

[Heidi]

What an entitled asshat.

Exactly what I was thinking.

[amsunshine]

I can't believe I'm wading in here, especially given some of the folks who are already busy tsk-tsking. I'm sure I'll get beaten up again. However . . .

 

I still have student loans hanging over my head 30 years after my own college graduation.

 

I was stupid about the money I borrowed, no doubt. When the pricey private college told me they were putting together a financial package that meant no costs out of pocket and put in front of my a promissory note to sign, I signed. This was in the days before students had mandatory pre-loan counseling. No one explained the consequences to me, and I had parents who were also stupid about money and, therefore, no good habits or training. I also had personal circumstances during and after college that made my financial situation untenable. I did get a day job. In fact, I held full-time jobs for more than a decade. And I tried for while to keep up with the payments, but it was a losing battle. This was also in the days before income-based repayment plans. So, when I was unable to keep up with the payments, things went south very quickly. 

 

For the record, I spent exactly one year at that private college, then transferred to a state university to finish my degree. I lived with my parents and used a portion of the grants, scholarships and loan proceeds to help pay their rent. I also had a work study job and worked part time during the summers in addition to taking summer classes. It wasn't like I was living it up in the Ivy League.

 

A number of years ago, when I was first married and we had two earners making decent money, I tried to negotiate a way to get back on track, but was told that, because I was in default, my only option was to pay everything that was in arrears before they would discuss setting up a payment plan for the remaining amount. That was a laughable prospect. (We were talking 10s of thousands of dollars.) So, I hung up the phone and forgot about it.

 

I've tried again over the years, with no more success.

 

At this point, the names of the banks through which I originally borrowed the money are lost in the mists of time. I've moved across the country and lost records to various floods and moves and other disasters. I know that at least one of the banks through which I borrowed doesn't even exist any longer. 

 

The federal website does have records of my government-backed loans, but those are a drop in the bucket.

 

Meanwhile, because I am in default, I can't get my transcripts from the university from which I graduated, which means there are all kinds of employment opportunities that are not available to me, which means I make less than I might if I could actually get the kind of job that requires me to produce those records. 

 

Honestly, I have lost hope that I will manage to pay off that debt before I die.

 

I'm glad you all are so diligent and responsible and, apparently, were all those good things even in your 20s. Seriously, good for you. I freely admit that I wasn't prepared to handle the financial mess that I took on in order to go to college like a good girl.

 

But don't worry: I'm living with the consequences of my failure every day of my life. So, you all can take comfort in knowing I'm getting what I deserve.

 

:grouphug:

 

I don't think I will ever pay off my student loans before I die.  (I am paying them, though, people.)

[gardenmom5]

Reminds me of the old joke.

 

What do you call a drummer (replace with any art) without a girlfriend?

Homeless.

Yep. Nephew is a cellist. Prefers gigs, no orchestra, no regular job. Odds and ends.

His wife's a lawyer.

[LucyStoner]

Thanks for sharing your story Jenny. I hope you know the "like" was in support of the point you were making, not because I like thst you've had to struggle so much with this.

[Liz CA]

I tried to declare bankruptcy at one point, but was not eligible to do so. (Complicated personal situation.) 

 

I don't think student loans are discharged anyway. But I see a difference between you and the author of the article. You are aware of the mistakes you made, you have learned from it. We all have made mistakes be it in the financial realm or elsewhere - but hopefully we have learned something like you. The author comes across as a whiner who is trying to elicit compassion and understanding because he considers himself too good to work in a field where he could possibly make more money - even temporarily - and therefore pay off the debt.

 

I think it is totally wrong that you cannot access transcripts! In fact I did not know this was legal.

[LucyStoner]

Transcripts are a matter of school policy. There is no federal law requiring a school to withhold transcripts for student loan defaults. Most schools only hold official transcripts for balances still owed the school. FERPA requires the school to give at least an unofficial transcript to every student even if they owe the school money.

[SKL]

My loans date from the 1980s, and they have never been eligible for discharge through bankruptcy.

 

Mine too, but I'm 48, not 58.

 

According to this they changed the law in 1976.  Before that, you could discharge student loans in bankruptcy.  After that, you could only do so after you'd been paying for 5 years.  If the guy is 58 now, then in 1976 he was ~20.  He might have viewed loan repayment as optional based on the law when he started school.

 

http://business.time.com/2012/02/09/why-cant-you-discharge-student-loans-in-bankruptcy/

[SKL]

I understand the limitation on bankruptcy discharge.  It is intended to open doors for folks to better themselves (financially) through education.  Why would anyone give a loan to a young person with no collateral, no job, and no history of paying his bills, if the person can legally walk away from the debt?

[Murphy101]

I understand the limitation on bankruptcy discharge. It is intended to open doors for folks to better themselves (financially) through education. Why would anyone give a loan to a young person with no collateral, no job, and no history of paying his bills, if the person can legally walk away from the debt?

I just don't have pity for institutions that loan to people in that situation for things like education and medical care. None at all. It's just a despicable form of predatory lending imnsho.

[SKL]

I just don't have pity for institutions that loan to people in that situation for things like education and medical care. None at all. It's just a despicable form of predatory lending imnsho.

 

Maybe after a point, but if it weren't for student loans, many of us would be low-income right now instead of being taxpayers.  It's not a question of pitying the lenders.  The lenders would simply stop lending if they weren't able to collect on those kinds of loans.

 

I don't know of "loans" for medical care.  Are you talking about people putting medical expenses on their credit cards?  Should the card companies refuse to cover medical expenses?

[Murphy101]

Maybe after a point, but if it weren't for student loans, many of us would be low-income right now instead of being taxpayers. It's not a question of pitying the lenders. The lenders would simply stop lending if they weren't able to collect on those kinds of loans.

 

I don't know of "loans" for medical care. Are you talking about people putting medical expenses on their credit cards? Should the card companies refuse to cover medical expenses?

I agree that the education is what enables people to better their lives. That's precisely why I think it's loan shark to demand debt for what should be a given standard in such a so called modern first world country.

 

No, I mean medical loans. As in you go the ER and the intake billing receptionist asks for payment and if you can't pay they try to get you to fill out a loan agreement. Some are interest free. Some are not. Both the patient and the hospital know they likely can't pay it, but hey, here is some "help" via more debt and they need the care, sooo. Of course people sign up.

 

It's not a new concept, even in non profit hospitals. It's been around at least a decade in my state.

 

http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20130914/MAGAZINE/309149945

 

http://www.healthleadersmedia.com/content/FIN-290680/Hospitals-Improve-Collections-with-PatientFriendly-Loans

 

http://consumerist.com/2014/09/02/hospital-teams-with-bank-to-offer-interest-free-loans-so-patients-can-pay-their-bills/

[amsunshine]

I understand the limitation on bankruptcy discharge. It is intended to open doors for folks to better themselves (financially) through education. Why would anyone give a loan to a young person with no collateral, no job, and no history of paying his bills, if the person can legally walk away from the debt?

It's one thing to lend reasonable amounts of money for reasonable tuition expenses. When those bankruptcy laws went into effect, the cost of a college education was nowhere near the exhorbitant amount it is today. Those laws have encouraged schools to raise their prices and lenders are happy to loan larger and larger amounts with high interest rates risk free. Sure, an education betters a person. But the larger that person's debt, the less that person will ever get ahead. On the other hand, the school presidents' salaries keep going up and the banks continue to profit.

 

I see the idea behind the bankruptcy laws, but they have been abused by the lenders and the schools in partnership. It's time to do things differently.

[Laura Corin]

 

Frankly, every artist I know has a diverse skill set to survive, so it's not that we are all special snowflakes sitting about waiting for handouts. It's just a fact of life that every class you teach or editing job you take on or second career you have on the side detracts from your real work.

 

 

I think it depends also how the artist defines him/herself.  If you want to be an actor only, then the other skills detract.  If you want to live a life in theatre, then they enhance.

[lailasmum]

I think it depends also how the artist defines him/herself.  If you want to be an actor only, then the other skils detract.  If you want to live a life in theatre, then they enhance.

 

 

True.

 

Nevertheless, there are only 24 hours in a day. 10 hours or so per day spent teaching writing and editing, for example, allows you to broadly define yourself as having a life in literature, but it sure as heck cuts into the time you need to actually write your next book.

 

 

Definitely. I think it also depends upon the field. If you need to get out into a certain field to do your craft like acting but you spend 95% of your time waitressing then it makes more sense to get a job in a theatre in another area and make the contacts. But I think that for some things like writing it's more a personal preference. One friend who is a writer prefers to have what he calls dull admin jobs that she can leave behind at the end of the day and then write in her spare time, another writes for a living in the travel field but also runs a website where she posts a lot of her work, does all the photography for her articles plus marketing and does some of the same for others and she hated trying to make a living doing unrelated jobs, it just made her unhappy.

 

Also I think people's expectations of what certain areas require needs updating because employers do want you to do a wider range of skills. and maybe now they all just need to be accepted as part of the job. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Maybe after a point, but if it weren't for student loans, many of us would be low-income right now instead of being taxpayers.  It's not a question of pitying the lenders.  The lenders would simply stop lending if they weren't able to collect on those kinds of loans.

 

I don't know of "loans" for medical care.  Are you talking about people putting medical expenses on their credit cards?  Should the card companies refuse to cover medical expenses?

 

There are definitely loans for medical care.  There are also credit cards specifically for medical care and they have extremely unfavorable terms except if you are able to take advantage of an interest free period.

 

I don't see any difference between putting medical expenses on a card verses anything else (food, furniture, etc.).  I've done it.  I basically had no choice.  I doubt the credit card companies are hurt so badly by it when you consider all the interest they charge.  You typically don't go into debt within a year.  It can take years. And all those years you are paying paying paying.  I never went into it thinking I'm going to run up debt, but when you can barely scrape by it's too tempting to use it.

[Reefgazer]

You would think in this day of instant information and computer-driven technology, where the government knows his social security number (and presumably they do), they could seize a payment for a speaking engagement or magazine article at the exact time and point the payment is generated.  As in, type in social security number to generate a check/electronic transfer of funds, a red flag goes off, and said payment is held to be rerouted to the government when the debt is verified.  Actually, I know this can be done, if only the government had the inclination to implement the system.

I would be surprised if he has had income tax refunds for anyone to garnish.  If his income is from self employment then, unless he is overpaying his quarterly tax payments, he won't have any excess to refund.