Jump to content

Menu

"Why I Defaulted on My Student Loans" (article) -- cross-post


-M-
 Share

Recommended Posts

(Cross-posted on the H.S. School / College forum.) Looked through the topics quickly and didn't see this NYT op-ed being discussed.

 

What a strange brew of feelings it evoked in me.

 

Years later, I found myself confronted with a choice that too many people have had to and will have to face. I could give up what had become my vocation (in my case, being a writer) and take a job that I didn’t want in order to repay the huge debt I had accumulated in college and graduate school. Or I could take what I had been led to believe was both the morally and legally reprehensible step of defaulting on my student loans, which was the only way I could survive without wasting my life in a job that had nothing to do with my particular usefulness to society.

 

Please forgive the mixture of apples and pears for a moment and replace "in college and graduate school" with "buying a car" or "mortgaging a home." When did ignorance of the true cost of a purchase become a valid reason for walking away from one's obligations?

 

Maybe the problem was that I had reached beyond my lower-middle-class origins and taken out loans to attend a small private college to begin with. Maybe I should have stayed at a store called The Wild Pair, where I once had a nice stable job selling shoes after dropping out of the state college because I thought I deserved better, and naïvely tried to turn myself into a professional reader and writer on my own, without a college degree. I’d probably be district manager by now.

 

Or maybe, after going back to school, I should have gone into finance, or some other lucrative career. Self-disgust and lifelong unhappiness, destroying a precious young life — all this is a small price to pay for meeting your student loan obligations.

 

I don't even know where to begin, so I'll leave it at this: He appears to concede that he was reaching aboving his means in taking the loans, which seems to indicate that (a) he knew there would be a price and (b) he was implicitly agreeing to pay it. Now he doesn't want to and won't because the work he wants to do doesn't pay enough? Default is "the only way I could survive without wasting my life in a job that had nothing to do with my particular usefulness to society."

 

I'll say this much for him: He gives every indication of having a particularly well-developed if misguided sense of self-worth. (And I would add that Siegel was earning his degrees in the overpraised past, before tuition costs began wildly outpacing income growth -- back in the days when many maintain it was possible to work one's way through college.)

  • Like 25
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It was a "smh" read for me. Had I been his mother, I would have said -sweetie, it's great you want to be a writer, but you can take writing classes at the REALLY CHEAP community college. Instead, why not major in something that will actually have a paying job at the end, or look at learning a Trade? You don't have to have a BA in Lit from Small Spendy U.  :lol:

  • Like 19
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I look at it like this: Yes, we expect people to pay their medical bills. But we're outraged if doctors push procedures on people they don't need, charge them ten times what any other developed country does, and then on top of it charge insane amounts of interest. If someone later found out the medical procedure was useless and didn't want to pay all that money and interest for something that did them no good in the end, I would understand. 

 

That's college. A ridiculously overpriced thing we've been almost brainwashed into believing we need to survive which we are then financially screwed for attending for most of our adult lives. I can understand not wanting to pay that much.

 

ETA: I just read the posted bits, not the whole thing, but yeah, the guy should probably consider getting a job.

  • Like 21
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are enough young people who choose not to attend expensive colleges, that the argument "they were fooled into buying something they didn't need" does not work for me.

 

Even if it wasn't the best decision in hindsight (btdt), it was still our choice and we have to own our choices.  A 17yo who qualified for Columbia U is not incapable of making a contract.

  • Like 12
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What a special snowflake. Gag. Too good for state school and retail employement? He doesn't evoke a smidgen of sympathy from me.

 

He's fifty-eight. That's what I keep getting my sweater snarled on. He is not some upstart, a few months into paying for his loans. He is seven years older than I am, which means he was making these financial decisions four decades ago, during a time when college costs were much more aligned with income.

 

What's more, I can't figure out how the heck those loans are even part of his current financial landscape. He is a much-published "cultural critic." And he's fifty-seven! My husband's outrageously large student loans were paid off before he was thirty. What has this guy been doing about those payments for the last thirty-plus years?

 

Bah.

 

  • Like 29
Link to comment
Share on other sites

He's fifty-eight. That's what I keep getting my sweater snarled on. He is not some upstart, a few months into paying for his loans. He is seven years older than I am, which means he was making these financial decisions four decades ago, during a time when college costs were much more aligned with income.

 

What's more, I can't figure out how the heck those loans are even part of his current financial landscape. He is a much-published "cultural critic." And he's fifty-seven! My husband's outrageously large student loans were paid off before he was thirty. What has this guy been doing about those payments for the last thirty-plus years?

 

Bah.

 

58! Well....my sister is 51 and has over 50k in student loans. She went to college in her 30s. Lived the whole college experience (dorm living, meal plans and loans) for almost five years. Graduated with a B.A in Computer Science (didn't do well with programming) and ended up or working in retail combined with sporadic employement as some sort of Autocad technician. She lives with my 92 year old grandmother and cycles through contract work and unemployment.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I look at it like this: Yes, we expect people to pay their medical bills. But we're outraged if doctors push procedures on people they don't need, charge them ten times what any other developed country does, and then on top of it charge insane amounts of interest. If someone later found out the medical procedure was useless and didn't want to pay all that money and interest for something that did them no good in the end, I would understand. 

 

That's college. A ridiculously overpriced thing we've been almost brainwashed into believing we need to survive which we are then financially screwed for attending for most of our adult lives. I can understand not wanting to pay that much.

 

ETA: I just read the posted bits, not the whole thing, but yeah, the guy should probably consider getting a job.

 

The irony of this is that he isn't someone who couldn't afford to pay back his loans.  He just couldn't pay back his student loans without making some lifestyle sacrifices so he took advantage of the situation (and to a large extent his now late mother who co-signed for his loans and was pursued by debt collectors during her elderly years). Further irony comes from the reality that by not having an employed position it does make it more difficult for those he owes money to attempt to recoup their losses through wage garnishment.  So, I suppose, at least from his perspective, he has beat the system (or maybe he would prefer "stuck it to the man") and I suppose everyone is entitled to their own perspectives.  

 

Currently he comes across to me as someone who is  trying to use the educational crisis, student loan bubble for his own financial gain.  He offers himself up as their spokesperson because it gives him a sound bite in a news cycle (and perhaps some appearance fees, or book deals down the road).  In reality I don't see much similarity between him and the students at Corinthians.  Is he really arguing that his three Columbia degrees didn't offer him opportunities? I also don't see much similarity between him and graduates who are working lower wage jobs and still struggling under student loan debt that it is unfathomable they might pay off ever.

  • Like 11
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The irony of this is that he isn't someone who couldn't afford to pay back his loans.  He just couldn't pay back his student loans without making some lifestyle sacrifices so he took advantage of the situation (and to a large extent his now late mother who co-signed for his loans and was pursued by debt collectors during her elderly years). Further irony comes from the reality that by not having an employed position it does make it more difficult for those he owes money to attempt to recoup their losses through wage garnishment.  So, I suppose, at least from his perspective, he has beat the system (or maybe he would prefer "stuck it to the man") and I suppose everyone is entitled to their own perspectives.  

 

Currently he comes across to me as someone who trying to use the educational crisis, student loan bubble for his own financial gain.  He offers himself up as their spokesperson because it gives him a sound bite in a news cycle (and perhaps some appearance fees, or book deals down the road).  In reality I don't see much similarity between him and the students at Corinthians.  Is he really arguing that his three Columbia degrees didn't offer him opportunities? I also don't see much similarity between him and graduates who are working lower wage jobs and still struggling under student loan debt that it is unfathomable they might pay off ever.

 

Yeah, this guy sounds like he has some issues. My argument was more about defaulting on student loans in general than about this guy's specific nuttery.

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What has this guy been doing about those payments for the last thirty-plus years?

 

He's possibly been ignoring them, until they showed up as black marks on his credit report, and then he decided to publicly whine. 

 

I've seen it. At a previous job, I had people call me in a panic over 25 year old student loans that showed up as big fat problems on their credit report. You don't pay, the loans don't magically go away.

 

The guy's story doesn't hang together quite right, though.  If he took a federal student loan in 1975, it would have been a Stafford loan.  Parents do not co-sign this loan.  It is the student's sole debt.  Also, as a freshman and as a sophomore, he could have borrowed $2500 per year.  That is not an insurmountable amount of debt to repay over a ten year period.

 

Federal student loan tables

 

He must have either taken additional loans later (grad school?) or taken private loans.  Or both. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

He's possibly been ignoring them, until they showed up as black marks on his credit report, and then he decided to publicly whine. 

 

I've seen it. At a previous job, I had people call me in a panic over 25 year old student loans that showed up as big fat problems on their credit report. You don't pay, the loans don't magically go away.

 

The guy's story doesn't hang together quite right, though.  If he took a federal student loan in 1975, it would have been a Stafford loan.  Parents do not co-sign this loan.  It is the student's sole debt.  Also, as a freshman and as a sophomore, he could have borrowed $2500 per year.  That is not an insurmountable amount of debt to repay over a ten year period.

 

Federal student loan tables

 

He must have either taken additional loans later (grad school?) or taken private loans.  Or both. 

 

From his article, it sounds like he took out private loans, as he went to a bank with his mom to sign for them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does he really see his usefulness to society as helping people through his writing to justify failing to pay back loans they agreed to pay? His writing is not too useful.

 

My child who chose a private college entered the military in order to pay for it. His younger brother chose a much less expensive public university in a place with horrid weather. Our other children are considering various options, such as those already mentioned above, community college, trade schools, etc.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I was in school, the rule that you couldn't get student loans discharged in bankruptcy for at least 5 years was new.  I'm guessing it was people with this guy's entitled attitude that caused this rule to be created.

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I was in school, the rule that you couldn't get student loans discharged in bankruptcy for at least 5 years was new.  I'm guessing it was people with this guy's entitled attitude that caused this rule to be created.

 

What do you mean "for at least five years"?  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58! Well....my sister is 51 and has over 50k in student loans. She went to college in her 30s. Lived the whole college experience (dorm living, meal plans and loans) for almost five years. Graduated with a B.A in Computer Science (didn't do well with programming) and ended up or working in retail combined with sporadic employement as some sort of Autocad technician. She lives with my 92 year old grandmother and cycles through contract work and unemployment.

Wow.

 

In other news, I'm 29 and we only have four more months on my loans. Yay! My husband never did accrue any, which I still am grateful for and marvel at.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What do you mean "for at least five years"?  

 

When I was in school, in the 1980s, the rule was that you couldn't discharge your student loans in bankruptcy until at least 5 years after graduation.  The law may have changed since then.  I don't keep up.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

my daughters went to "spendy universities" -

1dd had her student loans paid off when she was in her 20's. (btw - she majored in classics . . . .)

2dd receives her doc on Friday - and has half the loans her dept peers do. (her yearly income should be more than she has in loans.)

 

it's more than getting a job, it's getting a degree that has market value - AND it's not buying non-essentials and being very budget conscious.

 

iow: just because you can get a student loan - doesn't mean you should.  if she didn't need it, she didn't take it out.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I was in school, in the 1980s, the rule was that you couldn't discharge your student loans in bankruptcy until at least 5 years after graduation.  The law may have changed since then.  I don't keep up.

 

That was only for federal loans, and yes, the laws have changed.  Student loans (both private and federal) are generally not dischargeable ever (unless "undue hardship" is shown, which is literally almost impossible.)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow.

 

In other news, I'm 29 and we only have four more months on my loans. Yay! My husband never did accrue any, which I still am grateful for and marvel at.

 

 

you make me feel old.  I have children your age.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

They must have been private loans for his fancy private school too. Uncle Sam won't let you default on federal student loans.

 

Yes you can default on those loans.  Default just means that you aren't paying and/or aren't paying enough in a timely enough manner.   I think what you mean is that they won't forgive those loans. 

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

you make me feel old. I have children your age.

You have *experience* and *wisdom* ;)

 

If it makes you feel better, my husband is almost 40, and most of our friends are in the 40-60 range. I'm the outlier on the young side.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps there is additional information not in the article that would make this story make more sense. Right now I'm unclear why he was unable to do what many in their 20s do and that's work hard at a job they don't love while they pay the bills and continue to work on their dreams/hobbies/art part time.

 

Just a few statistics to put this article into a broader context. About 65% of students who attend college take out student loans. The average debt for undergraduate is just under $30,000. That's what student can take out in federal loans. That's not an insignificant sum, but it is the amount of money many people pay for a car. Young people in their 20s who don't have kids and don't have a lavish lifestyle can live on the cheap, work hard, and pay down that debt fast.

 

When we read these crazy stories in the media about people buried under a $100,000 in debt that is most often people who have taken on atypical and huge sums of private debt from banks. That's often to support a choice in college that did not make sense in the first place. Far too often families say "oh, we'll just figure it out a year at a time." Please don't do this! Add up the full cost of education. Don't just assume it will take four years, look at graduation rates. Then add up the amount of debt and use a loan calculator to figure out what your payments will be. If it is too much money. STOP. Make a difference choice. That choice might be community college, it might be a "lesser" name college or university, it might be taking a gap year and starting over focusing on colleges that make better financial sense.

  • Like 13
Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I was in school, in the 1980s, the rule was that you couldn't discharge your student loans in bankruptcy until at least 5 years after graduation.  The law may have changed since then.  I don't keep up.

 

It has changed to be next to impossible to get rid of them. In my brother's case (this was about 10 years ago now) he won a hardship judgment (?not sure of the actual term) in his bankruptcy and his student loans were discharged/forgiven.  It is incredibly difficult to do and it is (so I am told) exceptionally rare, but it is/was a legal way out of them.  In regard to the author of the article, though, it doesn't sound like he would qualify for that, and it's been a while so maybe the rules have closed that loophole now.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You have *experience* and *wisdom* ;)

 

If it makes you feel better, my husband is almost 40, and most of our friends are in the 40-60 range. I'm the outlier on the young side.

 

 

btdt.   comes with the territory of marrying an older guy.  what's wrong is I have more gray hair than dh. 

 

dsil is only a few years older than 2dd.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

I could give up what had become my vocation (in my case, being a writer) and take a job that I didn’t want in order to repay the huge debt I had accumulated in college and graduate school. Or I could take what I had been led to believe was both the morally and legally reprehensible step of defaulting on my student loans, which was the only way I could survive without wasting my life in a job that had nothing to do with my particular usefulness to society.

 

Oh the poor man. Imagine having to work a job that pays the bills because society does not fully compensate him for his particular usefulness.

What an entitled moron.

  • Like 28
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps there is additional information not in the article that would make this story make more sense. Right now I'm unclear why he was unable to do what many in their 20s do and that's work hard at a job they don't love while they pay the bills and continue to work on their dreams/hobbies/art part time.

 

Just a few statistics to put this article into a broader context. About 65% of students who attend college take out student loans. The average debt for undergraduate is just under $30,000. That's what student can take out in federal loans. That's not an insignificant sum, but it is the amount of money many people pay for a car. Young people in their 20s who don't have kids and don't have a lavish lifestyle can live on the cheap, work hard, and pay down that debt fast.

 

When we read these crazy stories in the media about people buried under a $100,000 in debt that is most often people who have taken on atypical and huge sums of private debt from banks. That's often to support a choice in college that did not make sense in the first place. Far too often families say "oh, we'll just figure it out a year at a time." Please don't do this! Add up the full cost of education. Don't just assume it will take four years, look at graduation rates. Then add up the amount of debt and use a loan calculator to figure out what your payments will be. If it is too much money. STOP. Make a difference choice. That choice might be community college, it might be a "lesser" name college or university, it might be taking a gap year and starting over focusing on colleges that make better financial sense.

 

people also need to think about graduate level degrees are often much more debt than undergrad degrees.  most of 2dd's peers have over $100K in student debt.  I've talked with several dds who easily had over $300K in loans.

 

there are also doctoral degrees that are next to impossible to get funding any way besides a loan. some schools will offer some scholarships/grants, and some only offer loans.  after all, the "system" expects them to make money after graduation and pay it all back.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Slate had a piece saying that the NYT ought to print a retraction, in part because the article was way misleading. The guy is not talking about debt from loans that he took out as a teen for his undergrad. He's talking about debt, mostly from living expenses, for *multiple* graduate degrees, *all* of them at ivy league schools.

 

In the end, this article really ticked me off. Because this is a real issue for some people and the way we deal with student loans is so wrong. But this guy is a borderline offensively horrible spokesperson for the cause.

  • Like 29
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I appreciated his perspective and especially the last couple of paragraphs. (This having just come off from reading a BBC article about free university education for all -- including international students -- in Germany). I read an article similar to this a few years ago about someone making the difficult choice of defaulting on their mortgage.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Slate had a piece saying that the NYT ought to print a retraction, in part because the article was way misleading. The guy is not talking about debt from loans that he took out as a teen for his undergrad. He's talking about debt, mostly from living expenses, for *multiple* graduate degrees, *all* of them at ivy league schools.

 

In the end, this article really ticked me off. Because this is a real issue for some people and the way we deal with student loans is so wrong. But this guy is a borderline offensively horrible spokesperson for the cause.

 

 

This.  The man has a problem because he made some seriously stupid decisions that are very clearly outlined in the Slate article (he's not even defaulting on loans for tuition, but for his living expenses).  There are too many people with legitimate concerns about student loans for the NYT to add this to the mix.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps there is additional information not in the article that would make this story make more sense. Right now I'm unclear why he was unable to do what many in their 20s do and that's work hard at a job they don't love while they pay the bills and continue to work on their dreams/hobbies/art part time.

 

Just a few statistics to put this article into a broader context. About 65% of students who attend college take out student loans. The average debt for undergraduate is just under $30,000. That's what student can take out in federal loans. That's not an insignificant sum, but it is the amount of money many people pay for a car. Young people in their 20s who don't have kids and don't have a lavish lifestyle can live on the cheap, work hard, and pay down that debt fast.

 

When we read these crazy stories in the media about people buried under a $100,000 in debt that is most often people who have taken on atypical and huge sums of private debt from banks. That's often to support a choice in college that did not make sense in the first place. Far too often families say "oh, we'll just figure it out a year at a time." Please don't do this! Add up the full cost of education. Don't just assume it will take four years, look at graduation rates. Then add up the amount of debt and use a loan calculator to figure out what your payments will be. If it is too much money. STOP. Make a difference choice. That choice might be community college, it might be a "lesser" name college or university, it might be taking a gap year and starting over focusing on colleges that make better financial sense.

I have over $100K in government student loans. I went to community college and then the local state university for undergrad and grad degrees (all while living with my mother and husband). The plan was to continue to live off of just DH's income until after I got out and started working full-time and the loans were paid off, which we figured would take three, maybe four, years. Then I got pregnant unexpectedly with our first, a special needs child, before I finished my program. My mom cared for him while I worked part time and finished school. I ended up having to quit work when he was two and a half because she couldn't do it anymore. His needs are more important than paying off my loans, so I'll be on the IBR program as long as he requires my care.

 

There are all sorts of reasons people end up with massive student loan debt they are incapable of repaying. There is no easy solution or one-size-fits-all chastisement.

  • Like 13
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It isn't that hard to get a job as a writer. I majored in journalism, and have had plenty of writing jobs, only one of which was with a newspaper. They all paid decently well, certainly well enough to keep up with my student loans! 

 

Sounds like he took out more than the "recommended" amount of loans.

 

If you default on your mortgage, you have to give the house back. If you default on your student loans, you should have to give your brain back. j/k

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I went to a very expensive private college (total mistake but I met DH there). DH rented a house with a guy who was borrowing the most he could and living pretty well off of it with the plan of declaring bankruptcy. I will never forget the horrified look on his face when one of the roommates said, "Dude, you can't bankrupt student loans". I thought the poor fellow was going to pass out.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I went to a very expensive private college (total mistake but I met DH there). DH rented a house with a guy who was borrowing the most he could and living pretty well off of it with the plan of declaring bankruptcy. I will never forget the horrified look on his face when one of the roommates said, "Dude, you can't bankrupt student loans". I thought the poor fellow was going to pass out.

 

LOL!  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I went to a very expensive private college (total mistake but I met DH there). DH rented a house with a guy who was borrowing the most he could and living pretty well off of it with the plan of declaring bankruptcy. I will never forget the horrified look on his face when one of the roommates said, "Dude, you can't bankrupt student loans". I thought the poor fellow was going to pass out.

 

 

oh, my.  bless. his. heart.

 

 

:smilielol5: some people only learn the hard way. scruples are good.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think we just got trolled by the NY times.

Agreed. An ass with an outrageous opinion wrote an opinion piece. We should probably just ignore it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

iow: just because you can get a student loan - doesn't mean you should.  if she didn't need it, she didn't take it out.

 

Although this depends on the loan terms.  Calvin's loans are essentially interest free - they only increase by the amount of inflation.  So, for him, taking out the maximum loan and banking any excess makes sense.  He will have a nest egg to take him through internships, graduate school, etc.  He's very frugal, so I don't worry that he will waste money.

 

The loans are paid back through the tax system and are automatically forgiven after 35 years.

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The irony of this is that he isn't someone who couldn't afford to pay back his loans.  He just couldn't pay back his student loans without making some lifestyle sacrifices so he took advantage of the situation (and to a large extent his now late mother who co-signed for his loans and was pursued by debt collectors during her elderly years). Further irony comes from the reality that by not having an employed position it does make it more difficult for those he owes money to attempt to recoup their losses through wage garnishment.  So, I suppose, at least from his perspective, he has beat the system (or maybe he would prefer "stuck it to the man") and I suppose everyone is entitled to their own perspectives.  

 

Exactly - he can afford to pay back his loans at this point. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You have *experience* and *wisdom* ;)

 

If it makes you feel better, my husband is almost 40, and most of our friends are in the 40-60 range. I'm the outlier on the young side.

You sound like me and my husband. I was 29 when we married; he was 39.

 

As for the student loans and this magnificent special snowflake, his mentality really rubs me wrong. I was admittedly stupid when taking out student loans. I did not think about how hard it would be to pay it off - just that I'd be making money, so it should be easy, right? 

 

The ONLY reason my $100K in student loans is almost paid off is because I married a fantastic money manager. I had defaulted several of them just because I did not have the money to pay. I was working 3 jobs and still not making ends meet with all the student loan payments!  Had it not been for my dh, I fear I would have defaulted even more. 

 

We have sacrificed so many things - the biggest sacrifice is that I was not able to be a SAHM as I had originally hoped. Eventually, I will get to; but the fact that someone can just sit back and consciously choose to not pay when I have sacrificed so much to do the right thing just makes me mad. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...